Train!

[trout_champ]

I’ve never tried to push my M&P40c that far, but I am game. I just want to see if I can.

Randy

[BigMat]

I am in, may be a week or so as I am leaving town for Oregon, buy maybe I'll try it up there.

Gun to try- New RIA 1911 officer frame, about 300 rounds down the pipe so far, max range to date 20 yards-ish. That's right, small frame 45 acp. Wish me luck





I also really like the rifle/pistol showdown idea.

[Irving]

I’ve never tried to push my M&P40c that far, but I am game. I just want to see if I can.

Randy

Let's try it together!

Hell, let's all go up to Pawnee and practice shooting handguns at one mile.

[BigMat]

Hell, let's all go up to Pawnee and practice shooting handguns at one mile.

Ballistics confirms it, I'm in!

45 ACP (230 gr RN)
Muzzle Velocity 850 ft/s
Maximum Range 1800 yard, 1.02 miles
Maximum Range, Impact Velocity 330 ft/s

[mcantar18c]

That is because you've made it your life mission to become a professional warrior. That's no problem of course, because the world needs those guys, but not everyone will be, nor should be, the same. Your statement that anyone who carries should be able to shoot Minute of Person at 100 yards with a handgun is ridiculous. That would be the same as saying that everyone with a savings account should have their Series 7 certification, and everyone with a driver's license should have at least a year of rally racing under their belt.

100 yard shots with a pistol is professional warrior training, and I doubt even those guys spend a lot of time training for that because if you are armed with a pistol only, and are 100 yards away from something, it is entirely irresponsible to engage until you are about 70 yards closer.

I laugh every time you mention shooting at a full sprint too. I used to be able to cover 100 yards in about 13 seconds at a full sprint. I know that I can hardly even see anything while running that hard, let alone shoot anything. I'd like to see you hit a man sized piece of steel at 100 yards with a pistol while moving at all, let alone sprinting.

So, training is good, but not everyone is, or needs to be, or even should be, a full on professional soldier, and there is nothing wrong with that.

This has nothing to do with what one chooses to do for a living. A man that carries a weapon for the sake of defending against a two-legged threat should be able to push their weapon to its full potential. Period.
It really isn't as difficult as people make it out to be.

[COLOR=Black]Again, even IF you could get a hit, you have a pistol- that means nothing, I don't know how many people you have seen shot, a hit at 65 yards with a handgun could mean very little, as in he may not even know he's been shot.
Shooting at him, whether he feels the shot or not, will reset his OODA loop, affording you time to ____ (make a more well placed shot, close distance while shooting, etc.)
As for the "shoot to the ground." Much easier said than done, as you now have a shrinking, and moving, all be it down, target at long range. Multiple center mass hits, with a CCW pistol, rapidly, on a two way range, while moving, against a moving target, at this distance, I don't buy it. Not for a second.
Shoot them to the ground doesn't mean pull the trigger so fast people think you're on full auto. Do what you need to do to place shots on target, just keep putting them on that target
I've taken 100 yard shots with a Glock 19 and pushed it farther with a 1911, I have put thousands of rounds through these handguns, both are large for carry guns and in neither would I be wild about taking the shot unless forced.
I certainly wouldn't be wild about taking a 65 yard shot with a handgun either. But because I've done so so well in training, I'm confident that if that were the only option I had, I could do it. As we've discussed though, that wasn't the only option.
I cannot expect a guy who may have a Ruger LCR to try the same, and need to get it right the first time.
I cannot expect a man who's serious about carrying for defensive purposes to carry a Ruger LCP

You forget every time that you are facing a very well armed, presumably trained adversary with a ton of ammo and nothing to lose.

as to the guy on the bus, his max range was maybe 6 yards based on your story, that's a far cry from 67 yards. Second point, his first action was running away in your story, not a bad call. He accidentally wound up in a crappy situation and came out on top, if Carson Shooter walked into the BBQ joint and CCW guy shot him, then these stories are the same, Carson Shooter never got near the CCW guy.
I didn't share that story to compare the ranges. I shared it to compare the actions of the good guys. His first action was getting to a place where he could do some good while reducing the chances of harming innocents... in his words, "I had my pistol in hand but decided a bus packed to the gills was not the best venue for a gunfight. When I noticed an opportunity I bolted out the the door. I ran to the front of the bus...." His intent, from the time he left his seat to the time he pulled the trigger, was to do something about the situation... not to run from it.
If the BBQ guy got low, moved through the parking lot through the cars to a point where he felt he could safely engage the shooter, and then did.... THEN the stories would be the same.

If CCW guy had a Rem 700 and some glass, take the shot, rock on, but with a CCW gun, forget the training, he could be a Ninja, he's done if he tries. 6-8 MOA on a perfect day, maybe 8 try's, 1 maybe 2 before youre getting shot to bits, and even if he hits, no promises it might not even put the shooter down, no way, he did the right thing


Finally, if I was him, I would be sound asleep right now and for the rest of my days, knowing "Mission Accomplished," he went home to his wife and kids safe and he can still put food on the table. This time, he made the right call, you can't save everybody, but you can kill yourself trying.



This may explain it better than I can-

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.



You may need to work on serenity training!



I don't mean to rant, but this dude may be eating himself up, and the last thing we as shooters need to do is pick apart the actions of a man we don't know, in a situation we cant understand, facing a threat we never saw. It gets us nowhere, it gets him nowhere, it gets our rights nowhere. The issue here is more people could have helped if they had guns in the IHOP and that the shooter shouldn't of had a gun! Not that some man lawfully protecting himself didn't go full-ninja enough to please the internet.

Can you throw a name out there? And where would I go to practice these things when done with the class? Like running and shooting from cover and stuff.

I do this at south site or dragon mans and I might have lead clogged arteries.

Randy

PM'd
As for places to practice... I have a few spots.

I have only read a few of these posts but even with those I have read, I want all of us to get together and see who can do a 100 yard shot with their carry pistol and hit the target, not close, but hit. I know there will be a few that say they can do it over and over, but, I'm a firm believer in "seeing is believing". Hell, if you can't or don't want to, film it, post it on youtube and let us see you do it again and again. Just sayin.

I'm down. When/where?
If we can't organize something I'll video my next shooting trip.

I already know how most of these are going to turn out... You guys should do what my friend and I have done in the past. Get two cardboard cut outs and place them down range from yourself and your friend, have one with your carry weapon and one with the rifle. The guy with the rifle turn your back to your target. The one with the carry takes the first shot at his cut out (supposed to represent the guy with the rifle). At the sound of the shot, the guy with the rifle gets to turn and take shots at his target (supposed to represent the guy with the carry gun). See who shoots who first.

We did this with pistols at first acting like an old west dual at 40 yards, it was fun, but with the pistols, we both had our backs to our targets. Anyway, you get the idea.

Hmmm... now that sounds like fun.

[Byte Stryke]

well, the wife is pissed.
She couldn't hit a soda can at 250 yards with her Pretty pocket .380 so I told her she was unworthy and had to sell her poop gun.








My Opinion, do what you can, when you can, to the best of your abilities.

In the end, all said and done, there are only 2 beings that can judge your actions, you and God.

[Great-Kazoo]

I have taken shots at a 14 x 14 steel plate, 100 yds confirmed distance. Shooting both a 9mm and 45 acp. The only thing different from a standard 100 yd target, the steel plate was approximately 75 feet up an embankment, and there was money on it doing a cold shot.
Both guns were fired 3 x each. shooting the full size 9mm 1st shot missed by [ ] this much way low, 2nd nicked the post 3rd on target
Full size 45 took 2 shots to be in the zone even with the slower heavier round as i knew from the 9 how deceiving 100yds and bullet drop could be.
This shooting was done in the standing position without ANY DISTRACTIONS OR STRESS.

I would welcome the challenge with one caveat, that being we shoot for $10 per round 2 rounds maximum. There are 2 targets say 2 feet apart, shooter has back to targets when buzzer sounds shooter turns and fires at target called out by another shooter. For the dick measuring shooters you have to run back from the target, do 10 push ups then shoot.
I would take my betting money, throw it in to the pot and not waste my time or money, to prove what i can or cannot do under stress, having been there once.

Do we need to set guidelines for the shoot? Not everyone carries a full size gun and some of us due to disabilities are unable to run, kneel or crouch let alone walk more than 50 yards with out assistance. So if that disqualifies me as "Man" enough, or not having enough "training mindset" so be it

[Bailey Guns]

I wasn't attacking your post personally. What I was getting at is that we should be praising him for his action, not for his inaction.

I never felt you were attacking me (or anyone else). I hope I didn't come across that way either.

I'd also argue that his conscious decision not to act, was action. I'm still in the camp that says this guy did the right thing.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

[Tweety Bird]

Some of the posts in this thread scare me.

Not everyone can be a professional warrior, able to make a head shot at 60+ yards without inflicting injury (or worse) to others. Second-guessing a man who likely knew his limitations is stupid. Yes, I said that. He'll have to live with his decision, just as he'd have to live with having shot an innocent if that had happened.

Anyway, the 2A doesn't require training to that level of skill.

In post 17, Jim pointed out the same things for which some of you guys ripped me a new asshole in June. But they are valid concerns, nonetheless.

Tough talk is easy.

[Irving]

A man carrying a pistol for self defense, shouldn't be engaging ANYTHING at 65 yards. Period. Very simple concept.

Engaging someone at 65 yards, who doesn't even know you are there, isn't even defense.