Train!

[BigMat]

...

I disagree with most of what you said, so I saved some space instead of going line by line.

No training ever, fully prepares a person for the big show, I don't care how good it is.

You can run and jump and shoot under stress all you want, NO ONE has ever become a combat veteran by volume of training alone. And I have seen people train their asses off, and then fall flat the first time its time to go. Mind set is serious, but from my experience its something you have, not something you can get, and the only way to know, is to find out by being there. For example, I worked with a guy once, trained for nearly a year in medicine, took a combat medic class. We drive up to our first MVA together, he sees a fair bit of blood, bam, I've got two patients because cap't training just took a nose dive/ out cold. It was awesome! He quit the next day.


The reason I said one shot, is after the first report reaches his ears, unless the bullet passes between them first, he's shooting back, and all advantage you had is gone.

As to hip shots due to armor, I've seen one before, it caused neither tremendous blood loss or immobilization, it could, but not always. Again, pistols can't make promises.

Why didn't he move, no idea, I wasn't there. There could have been one harley between him and the IHOP. and concealment doesn't stop bullets, by definition, especially 30/60/90/120 of them. Sure trucks are big, but they are mostly volume that bullets can pass cleanly through.

As to taking him down to defend your customers, I think he was in a good postion to defend them as well, that's why he was best to keep his butt alive, hidden and parked.


I know I would sleep well every night of my life, (and I have vested my life's work to saving other people, and I have hung by butt out there a time or two to prove it) because what happened in that shooting was the shooters doing, and the defense of me and mine falls to me and mine, not to some guy in a BBQ joint across the lot. The people in IHOP didn't carry where legal to do so, why aren't we talking about them?

[mcantar18c]

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.

FOF training is something that anybody that carries a weapon should do, IMO.

I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...

It IS less important. You and yours are the #1 priority. But, if you're in a position to help someone, possibly save them from being killed by some random crazy person while enjoying breakfast at IHOP, I see no reason not to do so. I certainly would have trouble sleeping at night knowing I did nothing, and knowing the results of my inaction.

[Irving]

I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts yet, but this thread did at least give me a fun idea for a training exercise. 5 targets, 20 yards apart, then you jog, sprint, etc the 100 yards and engage each target as you pass. You can do it on your strong side, weak side, or even stagger the targets so you have targets on each side; then you'd have to shoot across your body while moving. I like the stagger setup idea, because if you move to the left or right of the row, then you'd be shooting on your strong hand only side, but every other target would be twice the distance away. That sounds fun. I think I'm going to set that up some time.

Also, I've never tried to hit anything with a pistol past like 35 yards. I guess I should set that up as well, but I don't know what I have to shoot at that would be large enough. Maybe I should have gotten that keg out of the dumpster a while back. heh.

[Fentonite]

Jeez. I just read every post, and didn't see a single picture of a locomotive. That title was misleading.

[mcantar18c]

I disagree with most of what you said, so I saved some space instead of going line by line.

We agree more than you think...

No training ever, fully prepares a person for the big show, I don't care how good it is.

Agreed. But like I said, it will definitely stack the odds in one's favor... or more to their side than otherwise, anyway.

You can run and jump and shoot under stress all you want, NO ONE has ever become a combat veteran by volume of training alone. And I have seen people train their asses off, and then fall flat the first time its time to go. Mind set is serious, but from my experience its something you have, not something you can get, and the only way to know, is to find out by being there.

Mindset is definitely more nature than nurture. But I've seen plenty of converts... having your eyes opened to the evils in the world is quite the experience, and I've seen many cases where people did a complete 180 after an experience.

The reason I said one shot, is after the first report reaches his ears, unless the bullet passes between them first, he's shooting back, and all advantage you had is gone.

Once the first report reaches his ears, he's aware that he's got some opposition. It still takes time to figure out where the shots are coming from and where to shoot back.... and in that time you can have plenty more rounds headed his way.

As to hip shots due to armor, I've seen one before, it caused neither tremendous blood loss or immobilization, it could, but not always. Again, pistols can't make promises.

Which, again, is why you shoot them to the ground. Until they're lying on the ground and not moving, there's no need to stop pulling that trigger.

Why didn't he move, no idea, I wasn't there. There could have been one harley between him and the IHOP. and concealment doesn't stop bullets, by definition, especially 30/60/90/120 of them. Sure trucks are big, but they are mostly volume that bullets can pass cleanly through.

Concealment doesn't stop bullets, but it prevents the shooter from knowing where to put those bullets. If you shoot while moving behind a solid line of cars, by the time he figures out where that shot comes from you can be dozens of yards away from where you shot from. My comment about trucks was about engine blocks. Put the front clip of a vehicle between you and the shooter, and you'll have some decent cover. Not great, but unless he shoots underneath the vehicle or gets lucky and the bullet dodges all of the large, thick pieces of steel in the engine bay, it's better than nothing.

As to taking him down to defend your customers, I think he was in a good postion to defend them as well, that's why he was best to keep his butt alive, hidden and parked.


I know I would sleep well every night of my life, (and I have vested my life's work to saving other people, and I have hung by butt out there a time or two to prove it) because what happened in that shooting was the shooters doing, and the defense of me and mine falls to me and mine, not to some guy in a BBQ joint across the lot. The people in IHOP didn't carry where legal to do so, why aren't we talking about them?

I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts yet, but this thread did at least give me a fun idea for a training exercise. 5 targets, 20 yards apart, then you jog, sprint, etc the 100 yards and engage each target as you pass. You can do it on your strong side, weak side, or even stagger the targets so you have targets on each side; then you'd have to shoot across your body while moving. I like the stagger setup idea, because if you move to the left or right of the row, then you'd be shooting on your strong hand only side, but every other target would be twice the distance away. That sounds fun. I think I'm going to set that up some time.

Also, I've never tried to hit anything with a pistol past like 35 yards. I guess I should set that up as well, but I don't know what I have to shoot at that would be large enough. Maybe I should have gotten that keg out of the dumpster a while back. heh.

Shoot while sprinting at multiple targets, shoot with one hand, shoot with your weak hand, shoot to the sides, shoot while searching for cover, etc.
Sounds like a good idea you've got there.

[Zundfolge]

Every time one of these "Tactics agianst a spree shooter" threads comes up I'm mildly annoyed about them.

All these discussions about cover, concealment, tactics, shooting and moving etc. Y'all act like spree shooters are most often pissed off Ex Navy Seals or something.

99 times out of 100 spree shooters are some dumb-ass misanthrope who's "training" consists of a few hours of "Call of Duty" on the X Box.

You don't have to make every shot a 100 yard head shot. You just have to get lead moving in the shooter's direction ASAP.

Just look at the New Life shooting here in The Springs. Jeanne Assam didn't "take the shooter out", she simply winged him and the instant he realized this wasn't going to be shooting fish in a barrel any more, he got down on one knee and ate his pistol. Shooting over. Good guys safe.

I think we tend to over think these things. Sure, there's much value in training ... anything that makes your shots more effective is good. But the biggest "mindset" issue you need to work on is clearing leather and getting lead downrange ... don't worry about bystanders (what good is it to wait for that perfect shot while the shooter puts bullets in the heads of innocent folk ... if you happen to put a bullet into the leg or torso of a bystander it'll suck, but its just a risk you have to put out of your mind).

The way to stop spree shooters is to engage them as quickly as possible ... doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be fast.

To paraphrase Mark Twain (or maybe it was Heinlein):
When engaged in a gun fight, Get your first shot off fast. This upsets your opponent long enough to let you make your second shot perfect.

[Byte Stryke]

Every time one of these "Tactics agianst a spree shooter" threads comes up I'm mildly annoyed about them.

All these discussions about cover, concealment, tactics, shooting and moving etc. Y'all act like spree shooters are most often pissed off Ex Navy Seals or something.

99 times out of 100 spree shooters are some dumb-ass misanthrope who's "training" consists of a few hours of "Call of Duty" on the X Box.

You don't have to make every shot a 100 yard head shot. You just have to get lead moving in the shooter's direction ASAP.

Just look at the New Life shooting here in The Springs. Jeanne Assam didn't "take the shooter out", she simply winged him and the instant he realized this wasn't going to be shooting fish in a barrel any more, he got down on one knee and ate his pistol. Shooting over. Good guys safe.

I think we tend to over think these things. Sure, there's much value in training ... anything that makes your shots more effective is good. But the biggest "mindset" issue you need to work on is clearing leather and getting lead downrange ... don't worry about bystanders (what good is it to wait for that perfect shot while the shooter puts bullets in the heads of innocent folk ... if you happen to put a bullet into the leg or torso of a bystander it'll suck, but its just a risk you have to put out of your mind).

The way to stop spree shooters is to engage them as quickly as possible ... doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be fast.

To paraphrase Mark Twain (or maybe it was Heinlein):
When engaged in a gun fight, Get your first shot off fast. This upsets your opponent long enough to let you make your second shot perfect.

I Love you...

[Bailey Guns]

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. There is plenty of precedent to support both sides as well.

There was a mass shooting a few years ago, don't recall where, that involved a guy who tried to stop the shooting and was killed. If I recall correctly he had some equipment issues or something. Anyway, he's dead.

Personal experience: When my supervisor, Sgt Tim Mossbrucker was killed at the Albertson's store on Bowles/Kipling by a scumbag named Albert Petroski, the shooter (Petroski) was stopped by an off duty IRS(?) agent that took a shot from a little over 100 yds with a S&W 9MM auto (if I recall correctly). Damn near hit Petroski in the head, too. But once Petroski started taking fire he surrendered.

I'll never forget the words over the radio..."Get medical in here. Victor 4's been shot."

Anyway, I, for one, will never second guess the guy for not taking a shot at the shooter 65 yds or so away. He did what he thought was right and I respect that. At least he knows enough to not attempt to perform beyond his capabilities. People who aren't that smart get others killed every day in one fashion or another.

Yes, I'm a big advocate of training. Been teaching a CCW class all day as a matter of fact. But in reality, we tell people it's their decision to make, but advise against intervening in a deadly force scenario unless the student or someone they really care for is in danger.

The reality is you open yourself up to all sorts of things that can go wrong when you intervene.

I'm really comfortable with my level of experience and training. I've made the personal decision that there are going to have to be some serious extenuating circumstances before I'm going to employ deadly force for Joe Public.

[BigMat]

I've made the personal decision that there are going to have to be some serious extenuating circumstances before I'm going to employ deadly force for Joe Public.

+1 to all you said, and I stand by this as well. If Joe Public decided not to carry, who am I to say he's wrong!? (I think this concept was penned by Clint Smith First)

[Bailey Guns]

Clint Smith is one of my heroes. "LOGIC"