Train!

[MrPrena]

link to those video would be great.

[mcantar18c]

For the shooting in Ohio?
Don't have a link for a video, I'm sure some google magic can help ya there.
I do have the link to the thread the guy posted on his local gun forum about it...
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502

Last post on the first page (bold by me):

the gun was a glock model 36. carrying with one in the chamber probably saved my life because i was holding myself in the car with my left hand as they were trying to pull me out of the car no way i could have racked the slide.

[MrPrena]

Thanks for the link.
I goto OH often to visit my in-laws (Cinn, Dayton).
Glad that I got UT CCW that has recp w/ OH.

[Great-Kazoo]

[QUOTE=mcantar18c;426634
Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey..[/QUOTE]

WHAT
As a CCW holder, you only use deadly force, if you are in defense of a person CRS 18-1-704,
18-1-705 deals with defense of premises
You do not "bring the fight to them" you either engage until the threat is stopped (Fight) or get the hell out of there (Flight)
That quote alone, if you ever actually had to use deadly force just gave the prosecuting attorney enough ammo to get you an easy 3-5

You may be able to bring the fight to them under 18-1-707: use of physical force in making an arrest, or in preventing an escape.
This CRS pertains primarily to LE until you get the the subsections where an LE ask for assistance

Stop the Threat or get the hell out of there. Anything else and you facing a grand jury at the least.
You must be in your teens or 20's reading some of the shit you either believe in or type hyping your macho status. If you're older than that keep you gun at home and take up a job as a school crossing guard, part time.
You ideologue is going to get anyone who listen's to you killed, sooner or later.

Although i think (key word) after you attend Gabe's class you might be one step future away from reality, OR hopefully, come back to the real world.
i would also suggest you have a real good attorney on retainer.

When i was younger i thought the same way, a lot of $K spent here and there kept me from becoming a long time resident of the gray bar hotel. Going from self defense to ADW happens that quickly, as you never know what the witness' "thought" they saw or say after some leading.

[Mick-Boy]

As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?

Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?

I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.

This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.

I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.

Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).

You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.

Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.

Have a great day.

[mcantar18c]

Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?

I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.

This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.

You misunderstood me. I said that the shooter likely got most of his firearms experience from video games, and that had he had a weapon capable of full auto your average idiot would likely just spray with it.
Not saying that's the "proper" way to do it, just that somebody with no training or experience isn't likely to have that control.

I don't know it was densely packed, but then again...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/us/07shooting.html

The gunman, identified by the police as Eduardo Sencion, 32, began his five-minute shooting rampage around 9 a.m. as people flocked to the restaurant for the breakfast rush.

Probably a safe bet.

Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).

You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.

Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.

Have a great day.

I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities.

[Mick-Boy]

I don't think I did misunderstand you. What you said was

If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?

Confidence in your abilities is great, but it's amazing how many guys lose that confidence after things get loud in their little corner of the grid square.

Maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself until you've been in a few similarly unpleasant situations... elbows to the trachea aside of course. BBQ guy came through alive. So if that was his primary objective (and his reason for having a CCW) than he did just fine. If you think you want to be a superhero with yours, go for it. But don't sharp shoot another man because he doesn't see it that way.

What unit did you say you were with again?

[Great-Kazoo]

I don't think I did misunderstand you. What you said was

Confidence in your abilities is great, but it's amazing how many guys lose that confidence after things get loud in their little corner of the grid square.

Maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself until you've been in a few similarly unpleasant situations... elbows to the trachea aside of course. BBQ guy came through alive. So if that was his primary objective (and his reason for having a CCW) than he did just fine. If you think you want to be a superhero with yours, go for it. But don't sharp shoot another man because he doesn't see it that way.

What unit did you say you were with again?

I'm still waiting for him to say how old he is, what real life hands on experience he has and so on. Balls to the wall doesn't do shit over the long run in civilian life.


[I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities]

All i have read is your "expert opinion" in numerous post how it should have been done, everyone else's lack of confidence and training blah, blah, blah

I AM BEYOND CALLING BS
What exactly is your pedigree? Whence from doth you speakth.
And one more time exactly how old are you??

[Bailey Guns]

After thinking about this off and on since this thread started, after reading all the back and forth, I'm more convinced than ever that BBQ guy (Swagler) did consider shooting Sencion but decided against it. Most likely, for all the right reasons. Consider the first part of this quote:

"I wish I had shot at him but he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you -- you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon."

From all accounts I've seen Swagler was saying by the time he figured out what was going on, Sencion was entering the IHOP. Swagler made a conscious decision not to shoot because of Sencion's location...not because he was some kind of coward.

Nothing said in this thread up to this point has caused me to reconsider my position that Swagler did the right thing.

Is it the same thing that everyone else would've done? No. Was it a rational decision based on the circumstances? I'd say, yes, given what we know.

I don't fault him in the slightest. He didn't shoot for the same reason a couple of guys didn't shoot the Tucson shooter. I applaud them for keeping their cool at least enough to analyze the situation and make a rational decision.

So many people on this forum talk about how wrong is is that people with minimal or even no formal training can get permits to carry. How "scary" it is to know that those type of people are out in public carrying a gun.

And then something like this happens and a guy makes what I believe is a sound decision and he's just hammered for it. Now, suddenly, these same people that have little training should be making 65 yard shots at moving targets with innocents all over the place.

Sometimes, you just can't win.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Lets see you post your Age Mccanter.
What about all your super skills. Where did you learn them?
I bet you wont post them. Becuase.......your probable still in highschool and play call of duty everyday.