Train!

[mcantar18c]

The owner of the BBQ across the street had a clear shot of him walking into the IHOP after he killed the lady motorcycle rider but didnt take it, citing "Tt was a pistol against an AK, what was I going to do?"

If you don't train, you wont trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, you won't be able to do what needs to be done. Unfortunately, all too often Joe Carry goes out and gets his CCW permit, buys whatever gun the guys on his gun forum are pushing for, and thinks he's prepared to face the evils that exist in this world because he can put decent groupings on paper at a square range.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you dangerous (good dangerous) any more than owning a welder makes you a fabricator. You need not only the tools, but the knowledge and practice to put those tools to use in the most effective and most efficient way.

The above quote was taken from an article about the recent shooting at the IHOP in Nevada.
In this case, the shot was at most 65 yards (Google Earth measure from door to door of his BBQ joint to the IHOP). While it may not be an easy point-and-shoot, 65 yards with a carry pistol is by no means difficult. I can consistently shoot MOH at 100m (ok, technically 97m) with my carry weapon, and there is no excuse for not being able to do so with yours.
The BBQ joint owner went outside when he heard the first gunshot, when the whackjob in need (of some ventilation) shot a woman on a Harley. The gunman was still outside walking towards the building, and had no knowledge of the BBQ guy's existence. If the BBQ guy wasn't comfortable shooting then and there, he had time to take a knee or otherwise steady himself for the shot without compromising himself.
Also, there was a parking lot in between the BBQ joint owner and the whackjob. A parking lot offers a good amount of visual cover (cars) and ballistic cover (engine blocks, curbs, etc.) to conceal and protect you while moving and/or taking fire. Again, the gunman was still outside at this point. It takes what, 4 seconds to cover 50m? Could have just as easily closed distance to between him and the gunman till he was at a point where he was comfortable to take the shot.
The BBQ joint owner now carries the burden of knowing he could have prevented 4 murders and chose not to because he didn't trust his abilities. Not only did his lack of training lead to a lack of confidence in taking a not-so-difficult shot, but also to an inability to respond to the situation (solving the perceived problem of not having a shot by closing distance or taking a steady shooting position).
This was a proactive fight. The BBW guy had the initiative. He had the element of surprise, and the luxury of being outside the focus of the gunman where he could choose how to respond on his own terms. There is absolutely no reason that he couldn't have done so.
Also, the "he has a better weapon, I'm screwed" mentality is in play here. It shouldn't matter if he's walking around with an AK and you have a 9mm. Practice refines skill, training builds confidence, and if you're proficient and confident in your abilities then it shouldn't matter if you're facing a 240B with a 10/22. If you aren't proficient and confident in your abilities, train until you are... then train some more.

Can you ring steel at 100m with your carry weapon(s)?
Do you know how to shoot effectively while moving at full speed?
Have you trained to get off the X while counterattacking and not trip over yourself?
Can you make effective use of cover if needed?
Do you have the mindset necessary to do what needs to be done?
Are you physically capable of doing these things? (Physical fitness, staying in shape, is as important a part of "maintaining your equipment" as cleaning your gun).
If not, there's a simple solution: TRAIN!

[trlcavscout]

I agree. I would have at least met him half way at a dead run before shooting if necesary. Better to try and fail then to explain your excuses to the media afterwards? Which direction you run when the shooting starts tells your whole story.

[Irving]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.
At that distance I'll just keep out of the line of fire. I don't carry so I can protect people who won't protect themselves.

[Great-Kazoo]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.

And i agree with you disagreeing. A miss from you is a potential homicide charge. I have a high confidence level of my shooting capabilities, that still does not under stress at 65 yards give me a clean shot. Getting closer if possible might change that scenario, again a pistol facing a rifle is 50/50 at best.

[trlcavscout]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.

If its a mugging, bank robbery etc where their are no gun shots fired its better to be a good witness but once shots are fired I believe its time to get involved if you can do so without injurying the wrong people. I agree with not takeing the 65yd shot, but if he had ran over their he "may" have saved at least one life?

Although I dont believe 65yds is to far for a handgun. Some believe handguns are for 10yds only just like they believe archery hunting is 20yds maximum.

[Irving]

Sure, maybe. I'd have to see the area to have a better picture of the scenario. I'm looking at this school across the street from me that is about 130 yards away door to door, and there's no way I'd cross the open ground to try and approach that school and get involved in some event.

[trlcavscout]

Sure, maybe. I'd have to see the area to have a better picture of the scenario. I'm looking at this school across the street from me that is about 130 yards away door to door, and there's no way I'd cross the open ground to try and approach that school and get involved in some event.

To each their own. To me ESPECIALLY a school, if I seen a guy heading towards the school shooting someone in the parking lot I would be on him like a fat kid on cake!!!

[BigMat]

I disagree, I think his not shooting was a good call-

A.) Not going to Monday morning quarterback on a shooting- that is nonsense, its heat of combat, and under stress everyone responds differently, regardless of training. Some freeze, some act, I don't care how much training you've had, all it does it help you not screw up if you are and actor. I have seen people go that suprised me and people that froze up that talked all day about how awesome they were, no way to know until it happens. And frankly, I won't hold it against either, good men in both groups, you just hope some quit the next day, and they usually do.
B.) maybe you can make that shot all day against steal, HE WASNT SHOOTING STEAL! That was a very long shot for a pistol on a two way range, under stress, against a well armed opponent. Ringing steal is one thing. Dropping an armed guy at range, under stress, with one shot, and NOT MISSING-

my reasons-
His backstop- people in IHOP, if he kills one, that's probably on him, at least civilly and emotionally
shooters backstop- he didn't care

His weapon - a pistol by no means puts a person down with one shot every time, I worked on an ambulance long enough to know, no pistol makes a promise, NONE. -he also had 8 shots, maybe 15
Shooters Weapon- well within its functional range with plenty more firepower to allow for misses.

His situation- alone, barely armed, surround by customers with no cover
Shooters situation- UNKNOWN at the time. alone, turns out, did he know that-nope, he could have had a driver, there could have been 5 more guys in the IHOP, could have had a bomb under his vest. He had no way of knowing these things.

His concern- Himself, his kids and wife to feed his customers.
Shooters concern- killing people

His cover- Cars=shitty cover. Shoot one sometime, they are shitty cover, Have you seen an engine block in a civic TINY. Also running across open ground AT a guy with an AK=NOT SMART


He made a good call, could he have stopped it, maybe, sure, but would he end up in a body bag- odds are good. Look at the Texas courthouse situation, the civi-CCW was well trained and armed with a 45 at close range inside, shooter had an AK and his back was turned. The civilian ended up in a body bag after putting two in a shooters chest, from close range! (shooter had body armor in Texas, the CCW in Carson had no idea this shooter did not)



I carry a gun for me and mine, if I can help someone else so be it, but I am not fighting a Bradley with a knife. Train all you want this was not a fight he was going to win 8 times out of 10. He was just waiting for a body bag if he pulled that trigger, along with a few of his customers probably. I blame him in no way, the safety of those who are inside belongs to the shooter first and themselves. They chose not to carry a firearm for self defense, why would he change that choice for them. If he went down, I'll be the people he saved wouldn't have stepped up to feed his wife and kids, that's on him.


I don't mean to be a jerk, but judging this guy isn't fair. And if I saw this shooting in his situation, I would de-ass the area, pronto.

[Irving]

To each their own. To me ESPECIALLY a school, if I seen a guy heading towards the school shooting someone in the parking lot I would be on him like a fat kid on cake!!!

You might not have a chance when you have to close over 100 yards before you get to him. Although, a guy running, screaming, and shooting at you, would make a pretty good distraction from the kids.

EDIT: The bar-b-que owner has a responsibility for the safety of his own customers as well, and shooting at a guy with a rifle, is a great way to have bullets coming your way.

[68Charger]

I wasn't there, don't know the circumstances, he's the one that has to live with his decision.

I'd like to think I'd find some way to help, rather than just watch it happen- don't know if I could live with the what-if's afterward if I did nothing.

Can I ring steel at 100yrds with my carry piece? I don't know, never tried- have been taught self-defense distance is much closer- but this would not have been self-defense, would have been defense of others.
may require a change of CCW to be able to- I've been looking at .357sig lately (not required for that distance, but it wouldn't hurt if I'm changing CCW gun anyway)