Scope opinions?

[smchop]

I think its funny its no big deal to spend 2-3K on a high end AR platform, bolt gun and slap a countersniper on it and think its ok (not saying thats whats going on here), when that rifle is only half the equation. I parted with quite a few things to get into an upper end scope. What I did was sacrificed on other stuff or stuff that would be easier to replace and bought a schmidt and bender, liked it but wanted to try others, so I sold it (lost shipping cost) and tried a USO (liked it more), sold it and lost shipping charges, bought a nightforce (liked it but not as much as the USO), sold it and went back to a USO. That was how I got to try multiple scopes. All bought used and taken care of while I checked them out, and resold and only lost shipping charges. So I see it as I spent 125 bucks (shipping and insurance) to REALLY try out three different brands I wanted to and am happy I did. I am definitely no expert, but just a suggestion on how you can work it if you want. But even from the little I know I like being able to feel a positive click per 1/10 mil I move, can range on any power setting and my mil is still a mil no matter my power setting, and can adjust my parallax at my given range. Not everyone can swing it, I understand that and feel fortunate that I could. Push your glass budget as far as you think you can and then some would be my suggestion. What C Ward said above is right.

[C Ward]

The responses here saying that people can't shoot that well or my rifle can't shoot that well are exactly what I'm trying to get across .
Pretty much every rifle out there that is suitable for a precision rifle will shoot MOA or better with good ammo so saying that the rifle wont cut it is just not the case any more .
At every class I've helped teach there has been someone with an economy set up with low end glass that struggles . When either swapping the scope for something else or putting them on a loaner rifle it goes from struggles and frustration to making hits . So was this a shooter issue or were they being limited by their gear ?
The sighting system is the most important part of the equation and if it doesn't do its job everything else that is done will not give the desired results .
Like I said previously driving a precision rifle is all about consistency and repeatability , its not rocket science or voodoo . Execute the fundamentals properly and you will hit .
One last question how many of the economy glass owners have box tested their scopes to the full extent of the travel and what kind of results did you get ?

[RonMexico]

Decide your budget. Get what works best for your eyes and application. Don't be so concerned about what name it carries but focus on the features and how well it works for you.
I can't justify a NF or USO for what I do.
I have been very happy with my Nikons. Great glass and I think you get a lot for what you don't pay for.

Just my .02

Well said. Everyones eyes are different and some scope are better/ worse for others.

[mrfish83]

+1 on CWards advice.

My advice - if you need a scope now and are limited on funds, pick up a fixed power SWFA Super Sniper (SS) in 10x power (or 16x if you must), for $300 new. For the price they are hard to beat. I stepped up from a 10x SS to a 3.5-15 NF (Second Focal Plane) once I saved enough money. I'd recommend the same path. Huge improvement moving to the NF.

I shoot a USO now, and it does have improved features over the NF, but I wouldn't say it's worth twice the money.

NF is the economical point for a good quality scope. I never sold my NF... it lives on my AR now.

[asmo]

One last question how many of the economy glass owners have box tested their scopes to the full extent of the travel and what kind of results did you get ?

I box tested my HDMR, but didn't do the full extent, (If I remember right I did 30 clicks each way) due to the limitation of the size of my target. Again I was surprised that it lined back up and did so well.

[lifeon2]

You know I find it mildly amazing that snipers were able to pull off 6 to 8 hundred yard shots during WWII with crappy war produced rifles and optics that averaged 4x with 6x being pretty rare and very sought after and even in some cases iron sights, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 for a bit on Simo Hayha he was a complete bad ass.

I really have an issue with gear taking the place of actual work on the shooters part. It seems like the only opinion people give any more is if you want to be able to shoot well it is going to cost a gazillion dollars and thats just not the case. Of course the interwebs tell us that if we havent spent at least $200 dollars on the trigger we wont be able to expect repeatable results and of course your $200 dollar trigger better be attached to a $1000 + rifle in a stock that should cost no less than $500 with all of the free floated bedded harmonically balanced fluted bull barreled target crowned match grade adjustable work, that will cost you another $1000, done to it. Lets not forget that your $3 a round ammo should only be shot if you are sighting down a $2000 + optic mounted in $150 rings.

Step 1. Get a decent rifle, they can be had all day for around $500 and most rifles these days are capable of 1 moa.

Step 2. Get a decent set of rings, these can also be had all day for $50 and under.

Step 3. Get a decent optic, something in the 3x9 category is more than adequate, Burris, Vortex, Nikon and other similar quality scopes can be had for around 2-3 hundred dollars.

Step 4. Buy good ammunition or get a decent reloading set up, it doesnt take long to spend way more than it costs to do this when you are dropping $25 - $30 a box on ammo.

Step 5. Learn your rifle every nook and cranny every twitchy idiosyncratic thing there is to know about it. All this requires is shooting it and paying attention while doing so.

Now when you can consistently perform at 500 yards with this set up, some folks can do more this just seemed reasonable to me, all the time every time then step it up a notch. You see at this point you will know what would serve you better be it better trigger or better optic etc. because you will have had time to truly learn your weapon and that lighter smother trigger/higher power optic will be better utilized because you will have spent the time learning. It just seems to me that too many people want a rig that will do the work for them unfortunately a machine is only as good as its operator.

Now I am not saying there is no place for these things as there most certainly is but to me it seems like buying a 16 year old a ferrari, it aint gonna make him a better driver. Every skill requires a good foundation and it seems like all the advice given today is screw hard work or dedication just buy this stuff and you will be fine.l

So those are my thoughts sorry if it came out a little ranty and such I blame 2 hours of sleep. As some of you already know I run a small gun business from my home so this advice is actually harmful to my profit margin but it really is how I see it.

p.s. If you really have to have a $10,000 rig I will sell it to you after all I like money a lot.

[C Ward]

To run the box test it is more than just having it return to where it started . The values of the clicks need to be measured and the actual value determined and compared to the specified value . The reason to check the whole range of motion is to make sure that there is actually travel at the extremes and that it doesn't change increments . It is a pretty common occurrence that the knob keeps moving but the reticule stops with the lower priced glass .
Haven't heard issues with the HDMR's not tracking properly. The one I handled the clicks were really mushy with no positive feel to them at all . The 2 that broke were being tested down at 10th group and both broke internally and would no longer adjust . Both scopes were sent back and last I heard they weren't getting anymore .
There are also a lot of reports about the HDMR's having chromic aberration issues with the lenses giving color flare and halo issues .

For the money that these cost you can get a new NF for a little more or a used one for equal or less money which is a no brainer in my book .

[C Ward]

Lifeon2 , 8 years of running and competing in field practical precision rifle matches doesn't jive with your post . There is most definitely a level as to what will preform at a desired level equipment wise and it doesn't matter if Tubb is driving it or not .

[lifeon2]

Ward I dont understand I'd Tubb is driving it or not. Auto carrect? <--- See the joke I made there?

The boiled down version of my ranty post is that fundamentals are more important than gear. I'm not sure how that doesnt jive with you especially if this is your field. No matter how good your gear is if your fundamentals suck so will your shooting.

[ColoWyo]

While no doubt fundamentals are extremely important, the fact of the matter is, cheap shit will break. I've seen guys with the most expensive gear finish very poorly in many competitions. But what I haven't seen is guys with cheap set-ups finish near the top.

While yes, you obviously need to be able to drive the rifle. Your equipment still needs to be up to snuff. I think the quote "buy once, cry once" is really quite valid when it comes to the long range game. Especially in regards to glass.