Is paramilitary training illegal?

[quondom fremd]

I know this story is about white supremacists, and is also from CNN, and occurred in Florida, but it got me asking is paramilitary training illegal,

if it is, couldn't magpul and other groups be considered paramilitary training groups, or does it have something to do with the intent?

link to article:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justic...ss_igoogle_cnn

[275RLTW]

I know there is a mention of paramilitary training being illegal in CRS. As far as teaching "military training.." I don't know if it is listed in CFR. That is a VERY grey area that is controlled by DDTC and ITAR issues (if working with foreigners), none of which give slaps on the wrist. Most instructors will NOT teach "military technology" ie room entry, team tactics, breaching to civilians for this reason. If you do see someone teaching this stuff, they usually don't know what they are doing, hence the great amount youtube videos of idiots doing this stuff and almost killing themselves....if only darwin would step in at those moments.

[Bailey Guns]

I know there is a mention of paramilitary training being illegal in CRS.

Yeah? Where?

As far as teaching "military training.." I don't know if it is listed in CFR. That is a VERY grey area that is controlled by DDTC and ITAR issues (if working with foreigners), none of which give slaps on the wrist. Most instructors will NOT teach "military technology" ie room entry, team tactics, breaching to civilians for this reason. If you do see someone teaching this stuff, they usually don't know what they are doing, hence the great amount youtube videos of idiots doing this stuff and almost killing themselves....if only darwin would step in at those moments.

I got news for ya. The .mil doesn't have the market cornered on "room entry, team tactics, breaching". That's standard SWAT or even active shooter stuff that most street officers learn and can be found being taught at many civilian shooting schools in the country. Ever go to Thunder Ranch?

There are lots of LE or former LE guys teaching this that would disagree with your assertion that "they usually don't know what they're doing".

We've been down this road before.

[275RLTW]

Yeah? Where?



I got news for ya. The .mil doesn't have the market cornered on "room entry, team tactics, breaching". That's standard SWAT or even active shooter stuff that most street officers learn and can be found being taught at many civilian shooting schools in the country. Ever go to Thunder Ranch?

There are lots of LE or former LE guys teaching this that would disagree with your assertion that "they usually don't know what they're doing".

We've been down this road before.

Clint Smith's views on teaching civilians more than necessary is well known. If you forgot...he doesn't. Please let me know what schools are teaching "active shooter" to non sworn officers? I've never seen one that was worth a damn. I've seen what alot of the agencies are teaching and some are up on their tactics, others still think a circle in the middle of the room is a viable techique. Finally, since you haven't been in LE for a while, nor were you in the military (AF doesn't count for a viable source for tactics), let me clue you in. Directorate of Defense of Trade Controls. Look them up, call them, learn something. Why do you think everyone is requiring background checks for training courses nowadays? Why do you think some courses are not available for civilians? Why don't we see civilian shoothouses popping up like gun ranges do? Just because you WERE a cop doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. If teaching room clearing to every civilian was OK, then why doesn't your beloved NRA has a course out for it yet?

[Sharpienads]

AF doesn't count for a viable source for tactics

Really?

Pure ignorance.

[275RLTW]

Really?

Pure ignorance.

Nope. Even you Tac-P's don't run drills. Your weapon is your radio, not your trigger finger.

[hollohas]

Please let me know what schools are teaching "active shooter" to non sworn officers? I've never seen one that was worth a damn.

Gunsite has many civilian classes teaching team tactics as well as multiple classes that spend time in the shoot house and force-on-force tactical training for pistol, carbine, rifle and shotgun.

[275RLTW]

Gunsite has many civilian classes teaching team tactics as well as multiple classes that spend time in the shoot house and force-on-force tactical training for pistol, carbine, rifle and shotgun.

Nothing wrong with force on force. In fact, I highly recommend it for everyone who carries. THe tactics they are teaching are again, defensive in nature. How to respond to an attack whe you have no other option. They are not offering a "shoothouse" course or similar to civilians.

There is nothing wrong with knowing or wanting to learn this stuff; just man up and enlist. You don't get to learn neurosurgery without going to med school... Too many people whine on the internet about not getting to learn the cool stuff when they can't get off the couch and put the time in like everyone else had to. I suppose their free training vouchers should come in the mail with thier food stamps too. Just because you consume oxygen doesn't mean you're entitled to have everything GIVEN to you. Some things you have to earn.

[spqrzilla]

"Military training" is not illegal in and of itself in Colorado. Note the parts that I've bolded in this quotation from CRS 18-9-120:

18-9-120. Terrorist training activities - penalties - exemptions



(1) As used in this section, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) "Civil disorder" means any planned public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of two or more persons that causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to property or to another person.

(b) "Explosive or incendiary device" means:

(I) Dynamite and all other forms of high explosives;

(II) Any explosive bomb, grenade, missile, or similar device;

(III) Any incendiary bomb or grenade, fire bomb, or similar device, including any device which:

(A) Consists of or includes a breakable receptacle containing a flammable liquid or compound and a wick composed of any material which, when ignited, is capable of igniting such flammable liquid or compound; and

(B) Can be carried or thrown by one person acting alone.

(c) "Firearm" means any weapon which is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

(d) "Law enforcement officer" means any peace officer of this state, as described in section 16-2.5-101, C.R.S., including a member of the Colorado National Guard or any peace officer of the United States, any state, any political subdivision of a state, or the District of Columbia. "Law enforcement officer" includes, but is not limited to, any member of the National Guard, as defined in 10 U.S.C. sec. 101 (9), any member of the organized militia of any state or territory of the United States, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the District of Columbia who is not included within the definition of National Guard, and any member of the armed forces of the United States.

(2) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person and who knows that the same will be unlawfully used in furtherance of a civil disorder and any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training or practicing with, or being instructed in the use of, any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person with the intent to unlawfully use the same in furtherance of a civil disorder commits a class 5 felony.

(3) (a) Nothing in this section shall make unlawful any activity pursuant to section 13 of article II of the state constitution or activity of the wildlife commission, any law enforcement agency, any hunting club, or any rifle club, any activity engaged in on a rifle range, pistol range, or shooting range, or any activity undertaken pursuant to any shooting school or other program or instruction, any of which activities is intended to teach the safe handling or use of firearms, archery equipment, or other weapons or techniques and is employed in connection with lawful sports or teach the use of arms for the defense of home, person, or property, or the lawful use of force as defined in part 7 of article 1 of this title, or other lawful activities.

(b) Nothing in this section shall make unlawful any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed as a part of his official duties.

HISTORY: Source:. L. 84: Entire section added, p. 555, § 1, effective July 1.L. 95: (1)(a) amended, p. 1255, § 19, effective July 1.L. 2003: (1)(d) amended, p. 1615, § 13, effective August 6.

[275RLTW]

The difference is in sub part 3 of that section. While training for DEFENSE of person/property is justifed, going into a building shooting is not in your defense. Entry tactics are OFFENSIVE in nature and are not justified. Any law student could easily argue that you had other options available to you and show you as the agressor. Even within your own home, it is not advised to leave the room you are in unless to secure the safety of other persons in the home. Room entry is not needed for home defense. Consensus is: if you want to learn military tactics...just sign on the dotted line and raise your right hand.

Addition: you need some government sponsored authority to attend this training ie...you have to have a need for it. Everyday CCW'er doesn't need to know door breaching techniques, cops = yes. There is a reason I have to have to be vetted to attend the training I do. No grandmas with a snub nose .38 there and also no haji's wanting to use that knowledge against us.