E.H. Going down??

[68Charger]

His parents were here legally as political refugees. He was born in Miami. He's a natural-born citizen.

And this is false- they immigrated in 1956, before Castro came to power- they were just immigrants, not political refugees

so the question of their loyalty should be vetted.

Since they did become US citizens by the time he was 4, they'd likely qualify him as a NBC... but I believe it should be done in a legal proceeding so there is no question.

ETA: when I made the original statement that he "fails the NBC test", I should have added something about "at first appearance" or "on the surface"
That was bad wording on my part.

[Bailey Guns]

And this is false- they immigrated in 1956, before Castro came to power- they were just immigrants, not political refugees

so the question of their loyalty should be vetted.

Since they did become US citizens by the time he was 4, they'd likely qualify him as a NBC... but I believe it should be done in a legal proceeding so there is no question.

ETA: when I made the original statement that he "fails the NBC test", I should have added something about "at first appearance" or "on the surface"
That was bad wording on my part.

I thought I read or heard they were refugees. Could be wrong on that point.

Still enjoyed the discussion.

[Bailey Guns]

President Chester Arthur was born in the US to an American mother and an Irish father. There didn't seem to be any issues on whether or not he was eligible.

[68Charger]

Yeah, I think it is that simple.

His parents were here legally as political refugees. He was born in Miami. He's a natural-born citizen.

The only evidence I can find that would dispute that seems to come from people who are fabricating some requirement not in the Constitution.

I think Art 2, Sec 1 is simple and clear and means exactly what it says...just like the 2nd Amend.

The problem isn't in Article 2... it's in the legal definition of "natural-born citizen"

That is NOT clearly defined in the constitution, so case law is required to define it. (as in what has the SCOTUS decided, for one)

President Chester Arthur was born in the US to an American mother and an Irish father. There didn't seem to be any issues on whether or not he was eligible.

That's why I said it gets complicated- and it's not that simple.
would you really advocate that if it turned out that Hitler fathered a child that happened to be born on US soil, that he should be eligible?

Someone who's parents CLEARLY have no loyalty- or even hostility towards the US should not be eligible... the burden of proof is upon them to prove they were loyal to the US at the time.

But now I'm getting into the SPIRIT of the law, rather than the letter of it.


ETA: What I'm really saying here is that for Rubio to go on the ticket, the GOP really needs to address this legally- not just ignore it like the DNC did...

[Bailey Guns]

The problem isn't in Article 2... it's in the legal definition of "natural-born citizen"

That is NOT clearly defined in the constitution, so case law is required to define it. (as in what has the SCOTUS decided, for one)


That's why I said it gets complicated- and it's not that simple.
would you really advocate that if it turned out that Hitler fathered a child that happened to be born on US soil, that he should be eligible?

Someone who's parents CLEARLY have no loyalty- or even hostility towards the US should not be eligible... the burden of proof is upon them to prove they were loyal to the US at the time.

But now I'm getting into the SPIRIT of the law, rather than the letter of it.


ETA: What I'm really saying here is that for Rubio to go on the ticket, the GOP really needs to address this legally- not just ignore it like the DNC did...

Good discussion! Here's a quote from the Heritage Guide:

Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President.

So that would pretty much rule out your Hitler's child scenario.

[68Charger]

Good discussion! Here's a quote from the Heritage Guide:

Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President.

So that would pretty much rule out your Hitler's child scenario.

agreed- I was speaking about the spirit of the law, making the case for why it's not so simple that you're just born on US soil.

so it really comes down to his parents- their intentions & loyalty to the US... which I think clears him (since they became citizens), but it should be a matter of record, not something that birthers are going to dig up later and cry foul.
Even if his parents did NOT become citizens, but were not found to be enemies of the state- he could be cleared, but the vetting needs to be done for the good of the office.

I thought I read or heard they were refugees. Could be wrong on that point.

Still enjoyed the discussion.

I believe it was misstated at one point- perhaps even by Sen. Rubio... he's human

I enjoyed the debate, too...

[sniper7]

anyways, back to EH.

looks like there might be a decision today or tomorrow by congress if Holder will be held in contempt.

SCOTUS will rule on obamacare on thursday.

[Bailey Guns]

Found the case I was looking for: US v Wong Kim Ark

The SCOTUS ruled (in 1898) that pretty much anyone born in the US was a natural born citizen with few exceptions.

Sec 1 of the 14th Amend seems pretty clear, too.

I'm looking through my Heritage Guide to the Constitution. It discusses this issue at length and comes to the same conclusion...if you're born here (again, with few exceptions such as born to parents who are foreign diplomats) you're a natural born citizen.

[Bailey Guns]

There's some new information coming out about Dodson, the original F&F whistleblower. Might complicate things.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ed-gunwalking/

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., in bringing up the case by name unprompted, was effectively pre-empting what could come to light in a possible document dump: that the operation was planned and carried out at the field level without the knowledge of DOJ higher-ups.