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Notice how many times in that paragraph the word Penalty is used? It almost sounds like they wanted to be damn sure you didn't think it was something else
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." [...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.] -- (Lucius Annaeus) Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD)
“I regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.” ~ Nathan Hale (final words before being hanged by the British, September 22, 1776.)
If at first you don't succeed -- skydiving is not for you
how is healthcare not a right? Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
Originally Posted by cofi
Because you can LIVE without healthcare
Health insurance does not equal health care. There are still only so many doctors and only so many hours in the day. Even if there was a huge influx of people starting healthcare-related doctorates following the passage of the law, it still takes 7+ years for them to join the workforce.
A lot of folks now are getting health care without health insurance. Like someone mentioned earlier, hospitals can't turn anyone away. Hospitals tend to only collect some of the money they're owed, so this will provide funds to those who provide health care. With health insurance, perhaps they can use non-hospital care providers and leave the ERs to those who truly have emergencies.
Any got any idea what the current capacity of the health care system in the US is burdened at?
Healthcare is not a right because each individual has conditions or does things that other individuals do not have or do. What you do to your body is different than what I do to mine. Why should anyone else be subjected to the costs you impose on your body or me on mine?
Don't tell me, "well I'll cover you". That is just a cop-out to free ones self from being responsible for ones self.
Life means quite literally, your life and that is all. It doesn't mean a healthy life because life is what you make it. Personal responsibility and all that.
I'll the address the general welfare clause question too. General welfare does not refer to an individuals welfare, general welfare applies to things that all 300 million of us citizens share in together exactly the same.
The interstate road system for instance, each one of use can use it, it is good for the general welfare. Healthcare is specific to each individual and does not fall under general welfare, it falls under individual welfare.
THIS. Once again, I wish I was as smart as good ole' TF. This guy was able to enunciate in three sentences what I couldn't spit out in several posts worth of incoherent rambling.
Good luck fellas. I'm sure tax evasion is something they just invented to nail Al Capone. I've had health insurance since I was old enough to work, so I won't find out first-hand.
IMHO there is going to be widespread noncompliance to this and not because people like you and me who see the right to choose whether we want medical care and what kind as a very very basic liberty. The penalty maxes out in 2016 at about $700 per individual or $2000 per family. Because you can not be denied insurance due to preexisting conditions you can buy a 100M policy in the ambulance on your cell and they cant deny you. Do the math. Shit for somone like me from a get over viewpoint i should send in my penalty check every year gift wrapped with a bow and a scratch and sniff. This thing will have teeth sooner or later and it will be sooner. The teeth will have to grow very large. The alternative is rapidly accelerating debt/gdp well beyond Greece levels and or insurance company insolvency. Or... Dare I say it... Repeal of the prexisting condition part leaving us with a turd without the squirt of perfume.IMHO
i don't pretend to be an expert, but considering i work in the healthcare industry and my entire lot of in laws are all canadian, i feel i have some knowledge on this topic.
even if you get past the unconstitutional aspect of this, its still a nightmare. even if you live in a dream world and assume that this will actually provide everyone with good, affordable healthcare, its still a nightmare. probably the biggest mind blow to me is how anyone, even hardcore liberals, can honestly with a straight face believe the government is going to run this effectively and efficiently. i challenge anyone to provide ONE example of the government running anything effectively and keeping costs down. its a physical impossibility. they estimate this to be a back breaking cost. thats what they estimate. so you have to assume it will cost much more, i mean history has proven this time and time again.
then consider that between medicare and medicaid, technically everyone should be covered that can't afford it. i mean medicaid covers the poor and medicare covers the elderly and disabled. the cut off for medicaid isn't really that low in my opinion. my wife and i easily survived off of $35,000 a year for the two of us, still managed to pay 4,500 in student loan back and bank a few thousand. we live frugally but not ridiculously so. i figure you can get by comfortably if you're smart and you try at around $25,000 per two people and the cut off for medicaid, last i checked, was around that mark. and yet, medicaid and medicare are complete boon doggles. so we take those, multiply it and assume we are now going to get good, affordable healthcare? its lunacy.
the long lasting aspect of this is that really logic leads me to believe the government will have to pass more mandates over time to keep this even remotely under control financially. there will have to be requirements for those covered such as no smoking, no drinking, etc. probably rules against certain fat and sugar containing foods. as oppressive as that sounds, from a business standpoint it makes sense. i mean if you have to try to offset the given corruption, fraud and waste that will accompany this (just look at medicare and medicaid for examples of this) then you have to limit costs by ensuring the pay in outweighs the pay out. additionally, as is obvious, you are going to have to have major restrictions on end of life care. recently a study came out of england showing that thousands of people are purposely killed in their healthcare system because they are too expensive with very little overall benefit to society. it sucks for their family, but honestly from a business standpoint it again makes sense. if you detach yourself from the fact that these are humans and could as easily be your family, its easy to see why they would be so cruel.
now our system won't be precisely like england's, but like anything the government touches it will grow in size and strength. thats a given, particularly as it becomes not worthwhile for businesses to provide private care. as the last true "end of life" care nation, if we lose the market for those types of drugs and treatments, less and less developments will be made in that area as it simply won't be worthwhile. these are all long term effects but over the next 50 years i believe all will come to fruition. the country won't implode, but most of us alive today will look back to how things were when we were young and be shocked at how much it changed, and how so few noticed. do it over a long enough period of time and people surprisingly turn a blind eye to all kinds of oppression. sadly, in the short term obama fans will think they were proven right. the healthcare plan won't completely destroy the country over night and quite possibly in the short term may appear beneficial overall.
probably the thing that bothers me most about this law is what we lose that makes us different. sure, healthcare is expensive in america. it could be made somewhat cheaper through various small changes but it will probably always be more expensive. afterall, we pay doctors a lot more and reward being the best by giving big pay checks. its why the best specialists in the world are often found here. what people forget is that while some don't have health insurance, anything can be obtained in this country with money. if you need a heart surgery and have no health insurance, you can get in and get it done immediately if you can come up with the funds. although people are often too lazy or prideful to do so, that money can be raised through various charities and church groups found all around the country. however, as the government takes over more of the healthcare, this will become less possible, much how it is in canada and england, where everyone is on the list and whether you have the money or not you wait. sometimes thats the difference between life and death. its why canadians come here and pay cash all the time. my in laws have done it many times. you know the statitistic about average wait time for an MRI in toronto being around 9 months? thats not an exaggeration, my in laws live there and it took ten months for my wife's uncle to get his MRI for his back. luckily it was a disc out of place, imagine if it was a tumor on his spine.
to say we don't need reform is crazy. to say this is the reform we need is lunacy.
The most simple way I can explain this to you, is to compare your statement with specific amendments that guaranty other rights.
The 2nd Amendment says you have the right to bear arms. Are you REQUIRED to possess/purchase a firearm?
The 1st Amendment says you have the right to free speech. Are you REQUIRED to publicly express yourself?
Another way to look at this, is please submit a single example of someone being bared from health care. You can't find one, because there isn't one. Having the right to something, doesn't mean that it is provided for you. Every individual still has to provide their own means to secure whatever it is they want. You want a gun, you still have to go out and buy it yourself; no one is going to do it for you.
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Well spoken Tim.
"There are no finger prints under water."
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