Need Help: .308 FTF

[james_bond_007]

I'm starting into reloading using .308.

Background:
Bought Once Fired LC Military Brass
Tumbled, decapped, cleaned primer pockets.
Loaded 5 rnd groups w/ 40.0 to 46.0 grains H4895
Primed w/ Winchester WLRM (Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers) new from Sportmans's (seated until primer would not move any more; just below top of primer pocket)
Used Lee Pacesetter Dies
M80 Pulled Bullets
OAL = Did not exceed 2.81"

Issue:
Tried in my Springfield M1A (only about 100 rounds through it; never had a FTF before)
About 50% FTF.
Saw a firing pin mark, no different than what I see with commercial ammo or the ones that fired, in the primer of the FTF cartriges.

Suggestions:
Bad Primers? that many ?
Bad loading technique? (If so, What am I doing wrong?)
Primers too "hard" (Some have said I don't need Magnum; Others have said it should not matter for firing...just causes a bit less accuracy on the loads)
Problem w/ my rifle's firing group ?

Your help and direction is appreciated.

[20X11]

Sounds like bad batch of primers...try some CCIs or Remingtons, see if the issue disappears.

[Zombie Steve]

Fail to fire?

High primers? It seems unlikely with the M14 having firing pin to spare, but if the primers aren't seated all the way (usually about .005" below flush), the firing pin energy is used up seating them the rest of the way. You'll know if this is the problem, because if you chamber them again, they will go off.

Did you remove the primer pocket crimp?

Also - 2.810" seems a bit long. Not sure what bullet you're using, but I'm usually only 2.800" as a max for 168's, shorter for 150's (just to make sure there's good neck tension). Seems remote, but is it possible it isn't going into battery because you're oal is too long?

[james_bond_007]

Sounds like bad batch of primers...try some CCIs or Remingtons, see if the issue disappears.

One vote for Bad Primers. Do we have someone to "second" the motion ?

[james_bond_007]

Fail to fire?

High primers? It seems unlikely with the M14 having firing pin to spare, but if the primers aren't seated all the way (usually about .005" below flush), the firing pin energy is used up seating them the rest of the way. You'll know if this is the problem, because if you chamber them again, they will go off.

I thought of that "not seated all the way" issue at the range. I re-chambered a few rounds 3 or 4 times with the same FTF.

I checked, by feeling them with my thumb to ensure there was a "dip down" when I ran my thumb over them. I did not measure, but I would expect if I felt a slight dip, it would be at LEAST 0.005" below flush.
I'll try putting a small metal straight edge on the bottom, holding them up to the light, and see if I see any light come through. That will at least tell me if they are flush or too high.

Did you remove the primer pocket crimp?

I removed the crimp with a reamer that has a 45 degree tip. Maybe I did not cut away enough...I WAS worried about cutting too much off.
How can I tell how much is "enough" and how much is "too much"?

Also - 2.810" seems a bit long. Not sure what bullet you're using, but I'm usually only 2.800" as a max for 168's, shorter for 150's (just to make sure there's good neck tension). Seems remote, but is it possible it isn't going into battery because you're oal is too long?

Good suggestion. I'll recheck my sources for the 2.81" stuff (or if you can point me to some info, I'd appreciate it).
The bullet is a pulled M80 147 grain. (I added that to the above description in the 1st post).
Maybe if they are too long, and hitting the lands when chambered, the energy from the firing pin is being used to "chamber" them the rest of the way, and the lands are cutting a small grove in the bullet tip. If I rechambered them, as I said above, it is not likely I'll align the lands to to "cuts" again, and I'll get the same results, but make more "cuts" from the lands.

How can I test this theory ?
Should I try to measure my chamber length ? If so, How?

Thanks for the Great Suggestions (send more, please) !!!

[Tim K]

I'd be amazed if you're touching the lands, but maybe. Just look at a round that didn't fire and see if there are rifling marks on the bullet at the ogive.

I'd guess bad primers.

[sabot_round]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here but...have you pulled a bullet from the FTF cartridges and check to see if you have any powder in it? I've seen this before from a reloader that used to pull cases from the tray, charge them and return them to the tray. He lost track of where he was at and skipped an entire row, thus causing the FTF in multiple cartridges.

I have never experienced a bad batch of primers in over 10 years of reloading.

[Zombie Steve]

I'd definitely seat a M80 bullet deeper. You want as much of the bearing surface on the bullet in contact with as much as the neck as possible (don't forget the boat tail isn't touching anything). M14 actions are pretty violent. In general, the rule of thumb is you want to have at least one caliber width making contact with the neck (in your case, .308" touching... again, the boat tail doesn't count). They'll look strange, and not as cool as NATO rounds, but they'll behave better getting battered around in your action. If that means you can't crimp into the groove, so be it. Don't crimp. JMHO.


All that said, I don't think that's your problem. If you re-chambered and they didn't fire, it's not an issue with high primers.

My experience is the same as sabot... never had a batch of bad primers. Maybe I'm just lucky... but that could be it.

Just to be sure... you aren't one of those guys that oils his ammo or anything, are you? Any possible source of contamination from case lube?

Seems like if there was just no powder, you'd still pop the primer.

Lastly, are you sure you don't have your numbers mixed up? I thought James Bond shot .380, not .308.

[james_bond_007]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here but...have you pulled a bullet from the FTF cartridges and check to see if you have any powder in it? I've seen this before from a reloader that used to pull cases from the tray, charge them and return them to the tray. He lost track of where he was at and skipped an entire row, thus causing the FTF in multiple cartridges.

I have never experienced a bad batch of primers in over 10 years of reloading.

I'll check...
But even so, all I heard was a "click". Seems like a primer only would at least go "pop" and a charged cartridge "BANG". The range was not very crowded that day, so I would have been able to hear it through electronic ear muffs.

Thanks for the "shot" (pun intended) !!

[james_bond_007]

I'd definitely seat a M80 bullet deeper. You want as much of the bearing surface on the bullet in contact with as much as the neck as possible (don't forget the boat tail isn't touching anything). M14 actions are pretty violent. In general, the rule of thumb is you want to have at least one caliber width making contact with the neck (in your case, .308" touching... again, the boat tail doesn't count). They'll look strange, and not as cool as NATO rounds, but they'll behave better getting battered around in your action. If that means you can't crimp into the groove, so be it. Don't crimp. JMHO.

As they say when doing the Limbo, ...How low can you go ?
What would you recommend for MIN OAL for this?
(I'm OK with crimping it and NOT catching the cannilure)

All that said, I don't think that's your problem. If you re-chambered and they didn't fire, it's not an issue with high primers.

Any basis for the WLRM primers possibly being too "hard" ? I wouldn't think so, for the M1A's military firing group though.

Just to be sure... you aren't one of those guys that oils his ammo or anything, are you? Any possible source of contamination from case lube?

Cases were lubed before full length sizing, then primer pockets cleaned (RCBS wire brush-thing chucked in a Dremel till pockets shined). Retumbled in corn cob media to shine up and clean off lube. Decap pin used to poke through flash hole to ensure no media was in the flash hole, case then tapped upside down to ensure any media was "knocked out".

Primers were THEN taken out their box. All had the green "sealant" on the cup-side. Primed using the Lee 50th Anniversary press primer attachment (not "hand primed").

Lastly, are you sure you don't have your numbers mixed up? I thought James Bond shot .380, not .308.

Nice....

FYI: Although the Walther PPK and PPK/S came in a .380, James Bond was know for having one chambered in 7.65mm (aka .32 ACP)...at least in the movies.
But talk about this stuff belongs in another thread...