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  1. #11
    quivvy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol Packing Preacher
    Does anyone have statistics on Vermont crime? Vermont is and open Carry state where anyone can carry open or concealed with out a permit - as in our constitutional right!!!

    Stats anyone???
    Yes-
    Rent (or buy) John Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime" In one of the chapters he breaks down the crime rates in certain states based around CCW laws.

    I know Vermont was the 2nd SAFEST state to live in in terms of murder/rape (i cant remmeber which and I can check later when I get home)

    Alaska is also a no permit state (carry however without a permit) like Vermont. Alaska, surprisingly, is one of the LEAST safest states to live in terms of Rape (one of the countries highest rape states - top 3 i believe)

    One must consider that it is more accurate to look at state statistics, because one bad city may throw off statistics for an ENTIRE state.

    RECON-
    id like to interject and say i appreciate your thought and i wish we could open carry without funny looks. I've open carried on hikes in teh national forest and just act normal when i see people and no one seems to act any different except glance at the .357 on my hip. unfortunately, i feel that if i open carried in the republic of boulder which i reside, id be tackled and arrested.

    also, the analogy of the black/gay/jew thing seems a little extreme and exagerated. i'm in no way trying to start a dispute, i could just see alot of people taking the analogy the wrong way. i fully see your intention though. [/i]

  2. #12
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    Montana ramblings:

    From what I've seen up here is most people who open carry and dress nice are not given more than a passing glance if that.

    One guy I know who looks like crap out in public, I.E. dresses in all black, low slung hoslter on his thigh etc. He has had some issues not so much with the cops as far as I know they have never even talked to him. But he has had a few problems with business owners not wanting him their place of business.

    I saw a guy in Missoula and I talked to him for awhile about guns and such. He looked like crap, worn clothes, cheap belt and holster etc. He travels the western states alot and has had only one negitive encounter. This was with a kid clerk in a 7-11 type store. She freaked, he talked to her nice and left when she asked him to.

    So I guess I'm trying to say if you look "normal" dress nice you probably won't have a problem. I don't open carry in town but I do out in the boonies.

    In 44 days when we move home to Co I don't know if I will open carry in the woods or not. I had more encounters with moonbats in Colorado than anywhere else I've ever been. I don't need the hassle so what they don't know won't cause me any problems, most likely I will just carry concealed.

  3. #13
    Paper Hunter
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterCO
    I open carry sometimes and the reason I don't normally do it really has nothing to do with anything you said. The reason I like to carry concealed is for the element of surprise. If you are out in public and some dirt bag decides to shoot the place up who do you think they are going to shoot first? Logic says shoot the person you see with a side arm once they are out of the way it's a free for all.

    That is the great thing about concealed carry the criminals have no idea who is packing and who is not. This puts them at a great dissadvantage as they have no idea who can shoot back.

    A few months back I open carried my serbu into the diamond shamrock gas station at C470 and quincy. Nobody seemed to care Marlin and M2MG where with me they can verify that.
    Senator, I do not recall this.

    M2MG [poke] Hunter
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

    The tree of freedom grows the strongest when its watered with the blood of tyrants.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Remember: gold is the currency of nations, silver is the currency of gentelmen, barter is the currency of peseants, debt is the currency of slaves, fiat ( the dollar with no gold backing ) is the currency of "Thieves".

  4. #14
    Paper Hunter
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Recon
    This whole Virginia Tech thing has me thinking.

    I’m just going to throw this out there for comment. I haven’t thought it through, and I haven’t seen this discussed much anywhere, so I’m really looking to brain storm. It’s free-form, random stream of consciousness.

    I am not talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can’t carry, concealed or otherwise. Nor am I talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can carry concealed with permits, or without.

    I am just talking about jurisdictions where you can carry open. In these jurisdictions, why don’t more people do it?

    I’m sure some cops will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent? I’m sure that some civilians will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent?

    Are there any other reasons that people don’t carry open when they legally could?

    Because I have a sneaking suspicion that “social norms” are such that many people don’t carry open just because they don’t want to be seen as “different” or because they actually care what other people think of them. They don’t want to be seen as gun nuts, or playing cowboy, or paranoid, or whatever. After all, “civilized men” don’t need to carry guns, right? Hell, that was even the case in Dodge City, circa 1870s. It’s even more so now, right?

    Well, if this is the case, then I would imagine gun owners are much like some religious, racial, sexual or physical minorities. We must be feeling like they do all the time. But, why should we feel embarrassed about open carry? Why should we feel “out of place.” It’s who we are (isn’t it?) and it’s legal. Why hide? Why Uncle Tom it? Why play the “man’s” game?

    We all know we can go pretty much every where, open carry, but we don’t. Everyone looks for a concealed carry permit instead. Why? Are we ashamed? It almost seems like “they” (gun control types) have made us feel like strangers in our own home.

    If that is the case, then maybe some jurisdiction somewhere (some part of Texas? Colorado?), needs to “take back the night.” Just like women, afraid of rape, have started “take back the night” programs. Just like homosexual types have parades. And just like some minorities stand up on their hind legs and stick out their chests. Maybe gun owners need to do the same thing.

    I suppose some of us feel we are not like “them,” and we don’t run around wearing who we are on our sleeves like “they” do. We don’t rub our guns in people’s faces like “they” rub their status in our faces.

    Well, if that is how we feel, and if that is the case, then maybe we need to be prepared to watch our rights slip away. Maybe if we don’t exercise our rights, we will lose them. Maybe if we buy into the social stigma then we are no better than a Black person who bought into it in the 1950s.

    If we are a minority (as pro-gun types either are, or seem to be sometimes) and if we don’t carry open when we could, then maybe we deserve what we get.

    Now, if it became a trend, and if people started open carry in all jurisdictions where it was legal to do so, and if it became the norm, and if seeing people with guns was second nature, and nobody gave a damn after awhile, and it was like seeing a man wearing a watch, then maybe we’d end up with some better inter-jurisdictional crime statistics for comparison. We could point at the lack of crime compared to other jurisdictions. Then the gun control types would NOT have their argument about inconsistency in jurisdictional laws, and how guns from Wyoming skew the peaceful people’s republic of Massachusetts and that is why they have gun crime.

    Sure, we’d be the laughing stock of the national press for quite some time. Sure, cops would have to get used to seeing us at Safeway with an AR over our shoulder or a 1911 on our hip. Sure, mommies would grab kiddies, give us furtive looks, and run for while. But maybe that is the price we have to pay. Blacks paid it. Other minorities paid it.

    I’m sure some blacks didn’t like the idea of sitting at certain lunch counters. I’m sure cripples and deformed folks would rather just stay at home sometimes. I’m sure many gays just want to stay in the closet. I’m sure some Jews and Muslims want to hide their religion in certain circumstances. The Cops and the “public” looked at them with raised eyebrows. Did that stop them?

    I guess gun owners may want to hide in their own closet. So here we are, reduced to the status of a minority fighting for our rights in court and with lobbying firms, etc. But you know what, that might not be where the real work gets done. The civil rights movement didn’t get traction in court or in congress until AFTER they hit the streets and raised a ruckus. We could just hit the streets. We wouldn’t even have to raise a ruckus. After all, we have guns. What are we afraid of? Are we afraid of “push back” and losing more rights than we already have lost? Did that stop the civil rights movement?

    It would be a long, very tough row to hoe. But it’s our CIVIL RIGHT! Is it worth it that kind of struggle? Why not exercise it some place besides the range or our living room?

    Well, maybe it’s time we showed some balls like Rosa Parks and other civil rights icons, and started being a little more proud of who we are. It takes real courage to do that.

    I don’t know why I should feel stupid shopping at Safeway with an AR over my shoulder, any more than some Black dude should feel stupid trying to join the local country club. But I would feel stupid. Maybe I need to get over that and start packing?

    Nah, I don’t have the courage it would take. I’ll just keep pretending that my congressman and some judge will save my xxx.

    What say you?


    I think you have some strong points, when I went to college in Gunnison many years ago, my roommate and I would bring our 12ga's into class after duck hunting in the morning. The only questions we ever got were "how many did you get"? A gun in Gunnison, just wasn't a big deal.

    I've been thinking for a few months about how we can "break in" the public to the idea of open carry. I've been reading a lot of post on the FALFILES.com by one of the Mod's, W.E.G. he's also the President of the VCDL (Virginia Citizens Denfence League). He was the driving force behind the bill that would have allowed students and staff on college campus in VA that had a CCW to carry. This bill was killed in only a few days before the VT shooting. VCDL has done a very good job of getting out the word about open carry in Virginia. Try to get over to the FALFILES.com and checkout W.E.G.'s threads.

    As for us in COLO, maybe with the summer coming up we could plan some open carry b-b-q events in a park that it's legal to open carry in. Make it a family event with the kids, the other half, and some vollyball nets, horseshoes, brats and a soda.

    Maybe if we included a raffle for gun as the event, the word would get around quick.

    What do you think?

    M2MG
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

    The tree of freedom grows the strongest when its watered with the blood of tyrants.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Remember: gold is the currency of nations, silver is the currency of gentelmen, barter is the currency of peseants, debt is the currency of slaves, fiat ( the dollar with no gold backing ) is the currency of "Thieves".

  5. #15
    Grand Master Know It All HunterCO's Avatar
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    Downtown sounds good to me. :twisted:
    "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." (Edmund Burke 1784)

  6. #16
    Recon
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    I'd be willing to participate, but I don't have time to organize.

    I also think that a "day" would be good, where everyone went open carry in their own AO. The cops and the media, statewide, could be given the heads-up, just so they'd know when the calls started coming in.

    God forbid anything bad happened on that day. In fact, you might have to worry about sabatage from the gun control crowd.

    But I think that idea might be an opportunity to start some dialogue, laying the foundation for a 24/7/365 open carry "norm."

    On the other hand, I think we all have to admit we have our 10% that could screw the pooch. You know the media would focus on the Rambos, Skin Heads and others that would come crawling out of the wood work.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the concealed carry thing. But I can't help but feel we forfiet something by not going open carry. I've already expressed those feelings above.

  7. #17
    Paper Hunter
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    "if he isn't intimidated all he has to do is disarm you first"

    A very real threat...and not just because he may want your wallet

    Think about it...who open carries all the time...everywhere?

    The police...and look at the stats on how often they are shot with their own weapon.

    If carrying concealed is a great responsibility, carrying open raises the bar even further. A bad guy with a tire iron has just walked into an outdoor gun store and all he needs is one gunowner that is distracted
    and he will walk away much better armed

    Public perception is also a problem

    Even where legal you run the risk of someone panicking

    There are plenty of stories of CCW holders accidently flashing their weapon and having the police called

    I am all for passive resistance...but I am not real thrilled with having guns pointed at me on anything like a regular basis...as we saw this week...even the Secret Service can have an accident

    Someone earlier said it well...there needs to be some education to go along with an efforts like this

  8. #18
    Paper Hunter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recon
    I'd be willing to participate, but I don't have time to organize.

    I also think that a "day" would be good, where everyone went open carry in their own AO. The cops and the media, statewide, could be given the heads-up, just so they'd know when the calls started coming in.

    God forbid anything bad happened on that day. In fact, you might have to worry about sabatage from the gun control crowd.

    But I think that idea might be an opportunity to start some dialogue, laying the foundation for a 24/7/365 open carry "norm."

    On the other hand, I think we all have to admit we have our 10% that could screw the pooch. You know the media would focus on the Rambos, Skin Heads and others that would come crawling out of the wood work.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the concealed carry thing. But I can't help but feel we forfiet something by not going open carry. I've already expressed those feelings above.
    I thought a little bit about the sabatoge possibility or some dumb asses showing up. The best way I can think of is if a few of US bring our video cameras to document the event.

    If this is going to work, we have to think through the issues. Keep the ideas coming.

    M2MG
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

    The tree of freedom grows the strongest when its watered with the blood of tyrants.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Remember: gold is the currency of nations, silver is the currency of gentelmen, barter is the currency of peseants, debt is the currency of slaves, fiat ( the dollar with no gold backing ) is the currency of "Thieves".

  9. #19
    shrapmetal
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    im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.

  10. #20
    Recon
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrapmetal
    im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.
    Yep. Unfortunately true.

    Too bad we couldn't find all the examples of a rightous shoot and then make a hero of the shooter, saying "He/she saved 40 innocent lives today! Men, women and children." Then, when the media says "What do you mean?" We say, "Well, had this person not been capped, they were going to kill 40 more people across town." When the media says "How do you know that?" We say "See our dilima, you moron?" :mrgreen:

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