Thinking out loud

[Recon]

This whole Virginia Tech thing has me thinking.

I’m just going to throw this out there for comment. I haven’t thought it through, and I haven’t seen this discussed much anywhere, so I’m really looking to brain storm. It’s free-form, random stream of consciousness.

I am not talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can’t carry, concealed or otherwise. Nor am I talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can carry concealed with permits, or without.

I am just talking about jurisdictions where you can carry open. In these jurisdictions, why don’t more people do it?

I’m sure some cops will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent? I’m sure that some civilians will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent?

Are there any other reasons that people don’t carry open when they legally could?

Because I have a sneaking suspicion that “social norms” are such that many people don’t carry open just because they don’t want to be seen as “different” or because they actually care what other people think of them. They don’t want to be seen as gun nuts, or playing cowboy, or paranoid, or whatever. After all, “civilized men” don’t need to carry guns, right? Hell, that was even the case in Dodge City, circa 1870s. It’s even more so now, right?

Well, if this is the case, then I would imagine gun owners are much like some religious, racial, sexual or physical minorities. We must be feeling like they do all the time. But, why should we feel embarrassed about open carry? Why should we feel “out of place.” It’s who we are (isn’t it?) and it’s legal. Why hide? Why Uncle Tom it? Why play the “man’s” game?

We all know we can go pretty much every where, open carry, but we don’t. Everyone looks for a concealed carry permit instead. Why? Are we ashamed? It almost seems like “they” (gun control types) have made us feel like strangers in our own home.

If that is the case, then maybe some jurisdiction somewhere (some part of Texas? Colorado?), needs to “take back the night.” Just like women, afraid of rape, have started “take back the night” programs. Just like homosexual types have parades. And just like some minorities stand up on their hind legs and stick out their chests. Maybe gun owners need to do the same thing.

I suppose some of us feel we are not like “them,” and we don’t run around wearing who we are on our sleeves like “they” do. We don’t rub our guns in people’s faces like “they” rub their status in our faces.

Well, if that is how we feel, and if that is the case, then maybe we need to be prepared to watch our rights slip away. Maybe if we don’t exercise our rights, we will lose them. Maybe if we buy into the social stigma then we are no better than a Black person who bought into it in the 1950s.

If we are a minority (as pro-gun types either are, or seem to be sometimes) and if we don’t carry open when we could, then maybe we deserve what we get.

Now, if it became a trend, and if people started open carry in all jurisdictions where it was legal to do so, and if it became the norm, and if seeing people with guns was second nature, and nobody gave a damn after awhile, and it was like seeing a man wearing a watch, then maybe we’d end up with some better inter-jurisdictional crime statistics for comparison. We could point at the lack of crime compared to other jurisdictions. Then the gun control types would NOT have their argument about inconsistency in jurisdictional laws, and how guns from Wyoming skew the peaceful people’s republic of Massachusetts and that is why they have gun crime.

Sure, we’d be the laughing stock of the national press for quite some time. Sure, cops would have to get used to seeing us at Safeway with an AR over our shoulder or a 1911 on our hip. Sure, mommies would grab kiddies, give us furtive looks, and run for while. But maybe that is the price we have to pay. Blacks paid it. Other minorities paid it.

I’m sure some blacks didn’t like the idea of sitting at certain lunch counters. I’m sure cripples and deformed folks would rather just stay at home sometimes. I’m sure many gays just want to stay in the closet. I’m sure some Jews and Muslims want to hide their religion in certain circumstances. The Cops and the “public” looked at them with raised eyebrows. Did that stop them?

I guess gun owners may want to hide in their own closet. So here we are, reduced to the status of a minority fighting for our rights in court and with lobbying firms, etc. But you know what, that might not be where the real work gets done. The civil rights movement didn’t get traction in court or in congress until AFTER they hit the streets and raised a ruckus. We could just hit the streets. We wouldn’t even have to raise a ruckus. After all, we have guns. What are we afraid of? Are we afraid of “push back” and losing more rights than we already have lost? Did that stop the civil rights movement?

It would be a long, very tough row to hoe. But it’s our CIVIL RIGHT! Is it worth it that kind of struggle? Why not exercise it some place besides the range or our living room?

Well, maybe it’s time we showed some balls like Rosa Parks and other civil rights icons, and started being a little more proud of who we are. It takes real courage to do that.

I don’t know why I should feel stupid shopping at Safeway with an AR over my shoulder, any more than some Black dude should feel stupid trying to join the local country club. But I would feel stupid. Maybe I need to get over that and start packing?

Nah, I don’t have the courage it would take. I’ll just keep pretending that my congressman and some judge will save my ass.

What say you?

[robsterclaw]

I saw a guy carrying a Glock openly into the Loaf n Jug in Fountain last week. He didn't look like a cop. If anything he looked like a cowboy. Cowboy hat and cowboy boots. Basically a normal guy. I did a double take, and just thought wow, you don't see that everyday. No one in LnJ gave the guy more then a glance, and a quick peek at his gun.

My only concern with lots of open carriers would be the scumbag losers that would try to swipe your gun out of the holster and run with it. I'm sure some wannabe gangbanger would try it. That said, I think the risk of that would be small so I don't see a real problem with what you've brought up. My mom says everytime we have a Holiday, she still can't get used to seeing my brothers gun clipped to his belt when he comes over. It's actually funny. He places his gun on the top shelf of some built in shelves. My kids ask is it loaded? Can you unload it and let me see it. They haven't seen a glock before. He said later and they obeyed. I keep a gun out in the living room, and they ask if they can see it. They know they can after I take out the magazine. I believe if you train them right, they'll respect the gun while they fascinate them.

I believe that is true with your idea. If you train the public by open carrying, it'll become second nature to seeing them on people and they will just go on with their day. No one at LnJ looked worried or scared in the slightest.

[Asha'man]

Hard to carry a bag of groceries with an AR slung over your shoulder. :mrgreen:

Not a bad point, though. Honestly, I've been meaning to get my CCW for a while now but had never given a thought to open carry. I'm sure I've got the balls to do it, it's just that it is kind of "against the social norm" as you said, so it really hadn't crossed my mind. And, as anyone who's met me can tell you, I'm definitely not a scruffy-looking person; if my hair's short I've been mistaken for military before and I dress well, if casually. So no "hermit gun nut from the hills" impression here.

I may consider this.

[Recon]

Well, I posted that on another forum and here is what I got from one guy:

Not to long ago a man went into his old doctor’s office to get his medical records to take to his new doctor. Will he was wearing a shoulder holster in the open.
When he checked in with the receptionist she seen he was armed with a weapon. She tell’s the office manager who gets the nurses to start clearing the waiting area and call the police.

Will they get the waiting area and office cleared and the police swat team shows up. They go in and have they guy get down on the ground and cuff him and take him into custody.

Will after talking to him for over 4 hours they let him go and told him not to wear his shoulder holster in public again.

The whole time the man was not threaten any one or acting funny. When the police came into the office waiting area he was reading a book.

The state of Missouri has a open carry law this was a year or two before the CCW was pasted.

The police even said he was legal to carry that way after it was done. But they did it this way because they did not know what he was going to do with it so they had to check it out as if he was going to do something with the weapon.

They man later told the news he knew he was in the right.
But said he also did every thing the police asked him to do and did not resist them any way for he had lived in a state that had a CCW law and knew what to do and not to do.

Somehow we'd have to bring the cops around before trying the open carry idea. Either that or overwhelm them with litigation every time some innocent gun-toter got popped (another civil rights tactic).

[HunterCO]

I open carry sometimes and the reason I don't normally do it really has nothing to do with anything you said. The reason I like to carry concealed is for the element of surprise. If you are out in public and some dirt bag decides to shoot the place up who do you think they are going to shoot first? Logic says shoot the person you see with a side arm once they are out of the way it's a free for all.

That is the great thing about concealed carry the criminals have no idea who is packing and who is not. This puts them at a great dissadvantage as they have no idea who can shoot back.

A few months back I open carried my serbu into the diamond shamrock gas station at C470 and quincy. Nobody seemed to care Marlin and M2MG where with me they can verify that.

[Recon]

To pursue this out a little further, how would you (generically speaking "you") feel if you were in any given public environment and saw a perfectly law abiding citizen with open carry who did not look like the "normal" person from your perspective? Say you were in Carbondale or Rifle or Steamboat Springs and saw a Black man, long dreadlocks, dirty cloths, scruffy beard. Substitute with any appearance you want, just not "cop-looking" or middle-class "harmless" type.

I guess I would make a concerted effort to not get my adrenaline up, just to remain consistent with my philosophy, but I would also have to confess to a little subjective profiling going on in my mind. I'd keep an eye on him. Similar to "nervouse" Arabs on a plane, I guess. I don't know if that is fair, but I'd do it anyway. Would that hurt the effort, making us like the cops in the doctors office?

And then, if you didn't do anything, and the guy did go off, ala Virginia Tech, you'll be second-guessed forever, just like the cops would be if the guy in the doctors office went off.

If everyone would just carry, then after several years, I think things would settle out fine. But in the mean time, there would be some problems, for sure.

[Pistol Packing Preacher]

Does anyone have statistics on Vermont crime? Vermont is and open Carry state where anyone can carry open or concealed with out a permit - as in our constitutional right!!!

Stats anyone???

[PsychoI3oy]

I was gonna say something here about the logical disconnect between being born black or gay or whatever and owning guns, but it'd just start a fight and I don't feel like doing that today.


Suffice it to say that I agree with the concept and I think there's a post around here somewhere about a national-open-carry-at-the-state-capital day that I'm seriously considering joining.

[Recon]

I was gonna say something here about the logical disconnect between being born black or gay or whatever and owning guns, but it'd just start a fight and I don't feel like doing that today.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a fight either. I was just looking for an analogy to help make the point. I view my RTKBA as a civil right and a civil liberty and I was looking to history for some help, albiet awkwardly.

As to the other question, isn't there a a northern European country where everyone does military service and keeps their weapon? If I recall, they have virtually no crime. I want to say Sweden or Switzerland, but I don't remember.

[PsychoI3oy]

That'd be Switzerland. They are issued a Sig 500 series rifle (FA/burst/whatever) and a set amount of ammo on their completion of service (1-2 years, IIRC). Using said ammo outside of wartime is verboten. They are allowed to practice at ranges with the rifle, but (again, IIRC) they have to buy the ammo there and not take any home.

Yeah, it proves that having a lot of guns around doesn't increase crime, but drawing comparisons between Switzerland and the US is about as fallacious as drawing conclusions based on statistics between Japan and the UK, both of which have similar draconian anti-gun laws but wildly differing crime rates. The cultures are just completely different in all 4 countries.


And for my deleted-before-posting nitpicking (and the second paragraph above) let's just chalk it up to me playing devil's advocate as I agree completely with what you're saying but know how someone else would pick it apart.