Gun Rights and Voting

[Pancho Villa]

Yesterday I attended Liberty on the Rocks Flatirons, a sort of liberty-minded social group that brings in speakers and such. A bit of a drive for the family, but the speaker was a good one, and a friend - Dr. Diana Hsieh, philosophy PhD from (of all places) UC Boulder.

Her general speech was great and on the lines of why philosophy is important to everyone, what political principles are right and general political activism, since the group is very politics-focused.

But an interesting point she made about voting for "the lesser of two evils" was pointing out one area in which liberty has made a ton of advancement in the last 25 years or so; gun rights.

She pointed out that it used to be that the Democrat would be adamantly anti-gun (no guns / registration) in many places, with the Republican moderately anti-gun (supports the AWB, etc.) The idea was the Republican could be safely "moderately" anti-gun, and help pick up some independent voters, and what would the hardcore pro-gunners do? Vote democrat?

Actually, they abstained. And that tipped more than a few elections - until the Republican party started realizing that they were losing more votes than they were gaining with that sort of stance, and began to move in the proper direction or gun rights.

It's a bit of a simplification - a big component here was also expanding the number of gun owners and making gun-owning more respectable - but the political point is still very valid. Think of other "locked up" interest groups that often simply get left by the wayside - on both sides - because they will vote en masse for one or the other side no matter what.

The very successful pro-gun movement is an interesting example of long-term strategic thinking paying off in a relatively short amount of time. I thought that might be food for thought for the political discussions going on.

Edit: My favorite line of the night was "when you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, you end up with a lot of evil."

Dr. Hsieh mostly does practical ethics on her weekly podcasts, which I think are great, but I may be accused of bias since she's a friend. They're available at http://philosophyinaction.com/.

[Inconel710]

Thanks for the write up. I'll have to check out her podcast.

[10mm-man]

I am not sure about the "more Evil" from voting lesser of two evils. Sounds to me like she was trying to sway the crowd to vote for Obama.

Let's just say we see Romney/Ryan as the lesser of two evils. How would we end up w/ more evil? Or even the reverse-Obama/Bidden?

[Pancho Villa]

I am not sure about the "more Evil" from voting lesser of two evils. Sounds to me like she was trying to sway the crowd to vote for Obama.

She most emphatically was not.

Let's just say we see Romney/Ryan as the lesser of two evils. How would we end up w/ more evil? Or even the reverse-Obama/Bidden?

Thinking long-term, compromise begets more compromise. Think if all those pro-gun voters said "well, this Republican who is against assault weapons is better than the democrat; I'll just vote for him." We'd have bolt action rifles left - maybe. The more you give, the more gets taken in that sense.

It's not "more evil this election than if Obama gets in" - it's, if you keep compromising, Obama's platform will be the GOP's in 16 years, and they'll be running against for-real communist platforms.

Just look at, for example, how the GOP opposed social security, medicare, medicaid, etc., and now support for these programs is beyond question in the party.

[10mm-man]

She most emphatically was not.



Thinking long-term, compromise begets more compromise. Think if all those pro-gun voters said "well, this Republican who is against assault weapons is better than the democrat; I'll just vote for him." We'd have bolt action rifles left - maybe. The more you give, the more gets taken in that sense.

It's not "more evil this election than if Obama gets in" - it's, if you keep compromising, Obama's platform will be the GOP's in 16 years, and they'll be running against for-real communist platforms.

Just look at, for example, how the GOP opposed social security, medicare, medicaid, etc., and now support for these programs is beyond question in the party.

I think your point can be made also by going back over the years and how the parties has basically switched sides. Not sure how to stop it, think Ron Paul and his push for more constitution based individuals is a start! Glad to hear she wasn't pushing for Obama but with that kind of thinking not sure how she couldn't?? I say that because if everyone was to vote for someone other than Ryan/Biden (and vote 3rd party)we know Obama would def stay put. Everyone on both sides of the fence would have to vote outside there party for it to work.........

[KevDen2005]

I am not sure about the "more Evil" from voting lesser of two evils. Sounds to me like she was trying to sway the crowd to vote for Obama.

Let's just say we see Romney/Ryan as the lesser of two evils. How would we end up w/ more evil? Or even the reverse-Obama/Bidden?

I think the point is that if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils the person you are voting for is still evil, just not as evil as the other person. Nothing good really comes of it and therefore it is still evil. It's a philosophical statement getting you to think.

[spqrzilla]

Politics is all about compromise. "No compromise" positioning at the ballot box means that you are not voting and the politicians do not try to influence your vote.

We got where we are with long term thinking, and incremental improvement, and its been very successful. All of the nay-sayers that attacked the NRA's work have been shown wrong.

[Pancho Villa]

Politics is all about compromise. "No compromise" positioning at the ballot box means that you are not voting and the politicians do not try to influence your vote.

We got where we are with long term thinking, and incremental improvement, and its been very successful. All of the nay-sayers that attacked the NRA's work have been shown wrong.

Yeah, Dr. Hsieh was all about incrementalism and the NRA is definitely a success story on that end. She just was pointing out that an attitude of "we need to vote in the guy who is not quite as bad as the other guy" is often counterproductive.

[10mm-man]

She just was pointing out that an attitude of "we need to vote in the guy who is not quite as bad as the other guy" is often counterproductive.

Seems like that has been the norm for sometime now..........

[Danimal]

This is a problem that I have thought of for years. Looking back there are many times where I wish I never had voted because both candidates were a level of suck that I was not willing to back even if they had won. Now that the problem is identified, what are we as a nation going to do about it? I see a lot of discussion about the failings of our political system but no one is putting out solutions. Here are a couple ideas that I had.

1) Politicians are paid on a sliding scale after their term is up that is based on their general approval rating. So basically if you suck ass and have a 25% job approval rating then you get 25% of that positions standard salary. That way you as an elected official have a vested interest in doing the right thing by the majority of your constituent population.

2) Ban all political advertising. Give each candidate a specific forum to answer questions that are selected by the American people, then have those answers available for all to see prior to election. Formal structured debates would also be a good idea, but the most important part is getting the money out of election races. If they can not advertise, then they do not need 90% of their current budgets, which gets them out of the pockets of special interest groups. Make it illegal for any elected in office politician to accept money from any source other than their private business ventures (which should be closely monitored) and their pay as voted on by the people.

The reason we have to vote for the lesser of two evils is our political system rewards backstabbers, liars, cheaters and the independently wealthy. We have to fix that before we can have a decent candidate to vote for.