Romney: "Obama supporters are dependent on the government"

[dwalker460]

You forgot the part where there are numerous other companies that produce quality products that meet the needs of consumers. That, my boy, is capitalism.

Also, for your lower receiver example, you failed to account for inflation, rising manufacturing costs, rising raw material costs, etc. You acknowledged that metal prices are at an all time high, but failed to account for it.

Same story for gasoline. The cost of gas has been actually rising LESS than the estimated actual inflation, which means that whether it agrees with the point you're trying to make or not, gas has gotten cheaper over the past decade.

No, I addressed that there are more manufacturers out there now, as well as labor costs, which is a large chunk of manufacturing costs. But I did not account for higher taxes, workers benefit costs, etc., and I did mention that the higher cost of metal had a minor impact on cost. I maintain that IF there was a reason for them to that many sellers of lowers and other parts could drop prices substantially, but they dont because the market will bear what they are charging.

Anyway, we have drifted pretty far off topic, but good discussion!

[Irving]

Dwalker nailed the flaws with Fastman's consumption tax theory.

Teufelhund, you pay more taxes because of how you pay taxes, more than how much money you make. A very rich doctor still pays taxes the same way you do, and gets boned even more, even though he is "rich."

It sounds like you are saying that there should be a greater balance in incentives for people who are not business owners, because not everyone can be a business owner. I would agree with that, but don't have many suggestions on what to do. That is why I decided to pursue investments so I could pay as high a percentage of my income as Capital Gains as possible. Basically, I know I can't change the government, or how it taxes me, so my only option is to find a better way to pay taxes. It's not easy, but easier than trying to change government.

[Irving]

Honeybadger, let's say you have a rental property that you just paid off. Without the debt service, your cost is significantly reduced. Would you lower your rent?

Fastman, China directly controls the value of its currency, keeping it purposely low so the price of their goods are lower than the free market would usually allow. If we try to manufacture here, China can just readjust the value of their currency so their products will be the cheapest in the markets again. Now we will have factories that have over produced goods that we can't sell. Free market competition is ideal, but dealing with China isn't a free market when they control the value of their currency.

[Zundfolge]

HOW the taxes are collected is pretty much immaterial.

HOW MUCH is SPENT is the problem.


The fact that it's even remotely legal for the government to spend a dime more than they collect is the biggest problem.

Force them to balance the budget at gunpoint and then we can discuss what is the fairest and most effective method of collecting the taxes.

Eliminate 90%+ of the functions of the federal government for a good start.

[dwalker460]

Irving is right, but actually let me take it further-

China actually has less and less incentive to sell things here, and many products that were "Made in China" are no longer being shipped to the US. Why? Because with thier population they really dont need to export anything.
Last time I was in China there was a business show on examining why Chinese top name brands- shoes, bikes, electronics- are not being exported to the US or other countries. The answer from each company representative was there was no incentive to do so. They do not have to pay shipping, import taxes, etc. on their goods by selling in country and they have far less hassle with advertising and branding.
What happens if all the cheap crap- my wife and I joke that anything under $100 is Made in China- stops coming here? What happens when we have to pay the price increase in everyday goods because they are no longer being made in factories for cheap and are instead being produced by Union labor in factories taxed and licensed to the hilt by the US government making your 99c washcloth now cost $4.00? What happens to our economy when reality hits?
Do not labor under the asumption that the world economy NEEDS the US or US products- they dont and unless our general public gets its head out of its ass and stops listenign to all the BS and starts examining the reality then we are doomed to watching our currency devalue and our goods taxed more and more on foreign shores that have no incentive to give us a single break.

[Irving]

Agreed. It is all about spending. People bitch about what other people pay in taxes because they think that if the rich pay more, then the government will be able to afford more programs. Well, the government is cranking out wellfare that they can't afford anyway, so the rich paying more hardly matters.

[HoneyBadger]

Honeybadger, let's say you have a rental property that you just paid off. Without the debt service, your cost is significantly reduced. Would you lower your rent?

If I was having a hard time "selling my product" (finding renters) then yes... That's what everyone does. Some income is better than no income.

[Rucker61]

Dividends are disbursed as pre-taxable income, unless the corporation has some specific reason for doing so (a more favorable tax advantage) NEVER as post tax income. Thats what your missing.

Actually I am wrong, dividends are taxed as Corporate profits the disbursed. I will have to suck it up and go ask my wife how the shareholders are paid pre-tax, as I have screwed up my understanding somewhere.

Make sure you aren't in Dutch with the IRS. Remember, we aren't your tax accountants, and you should be thankful for that.

[Rucker61]

Irving is right, but actually let me take it further-

China actually has less and less incentive to sell things here, and many products that were "Made in China" are no longer being shipped to the US. Why? Because with thier population they really dont need to export anything.
Last time I was in China there was a business show on examining why Chinese top name brands- shoes, bikes, electronics- are not being exported to the US or other countries. The answer from each company representative was there was no incentive to do so. They do not have to pay shipping, import taxes, etc. on their goods by selling in country and they have far less hassle with advertising and branding.

Chinese top brands aren't sold here because the manufacturers can simply make our brands for us. We still import tons of Chinese goods under American brands. I know, I buy them every day. Also, pretty much every second tier electronics company is a Chinese brand. I'd say the market for export goods is pretty much saturated, given the number of empy factories that have closed in the last few years. The growing China middle class gives them a new market. However, shut down the export business and the middle class goes away.

Lastly, I wouldn't trust the quality of a Chinese brand that didn't go through a Western company's QC before the customer got to it. I've seen too much crap to trust a Chinese manufacturer.

[Rucker61]

If I was having a hard time "selling my product" (finding renters) then yes... That's what everyone does. Some income is better than no income.

Yes, but wouldn't you lower the rent regardless of debt status in order to get that income? The best pricing isn't done based on cost of the product or service, but rather on what the market will bear.