Can someone tell me the amount of debt Regan and the Bush's accumulated?

[spqrzilla]

Honestly, I don't trust that chart because the inflation index has been messed with to hide the buying power loss to the general public. The most glaring example is the cost of a house today in relation to average income. That number today is far worse than it was in 1979.

The cost of a house today - even after the bubble collapsed - is "higher" because people expect to live in larger houses with more amenities. And to do so with smaller household sizes. You are the one that are comparing gilded apples to skinny oranges and don't realize it.

Also here is a chart to the metric I was talking about. You will see that wages kept up with productivity increases all the way till Reagan... then wages stagnated.
http://www.zompist.com/lib2.jpg

And then you give us a chart that is inflation indexed itself. And has absolutely nothing to do with living standards or anything. It only compared GDP growth per capita to median income. It does nothing to establish your points but is a non sequitur as I pointed out earlier.

[dwalker460]

The cost of a house today - even after the bubble collapsed - is "higher" because people expect to live in larger houses with more amenities. And to do so with smaller household sizes. You are the one that are comparing gilded apples to skinny oranges and don't realize it.

This- and lets not forget that houses are built to be much more energy efficient, almost all newer houses have central HVAC, built-in cable/satellite, multi-pane windows... the list goes on. Not sure how old you are but I have lived in old houses where the floor was bowed and slanted due to settling, with no insulation to speak of and single-pane windows. I remember vividly only having heat in specific rooms of the house because it was too expensive to heat them all, and literally closing off some rooms during the winter to conserve heat. I remeber never wanting to be inside any more than necessary because the house had no ac, and hanging clothes on a clothes line to save a little on the utility bill, and a lot of other things that would send current folks over the edge. When I was growing up we had ONE TV for the entire house, and my parents dictated when and what we watched on it.

We are a land of privileged people who believe that they are entitled to whatever they want, whether they earned it or not.

[nynco]

This- and lets not forget that houses are built to be much more energy efficient, almost all newer houses have central HVAC, built-in cable/satellite, multi-pane windows... the list goes on. Not sure how old you are but I have lived in old houses where the floor was bowed and slanted due to settling, with no insulation to speak of and single-pane windows. I remember vividly only having heat in specific rooms of the house because it was too expensive to heat them all, and literally closing off some rooms during the winter to conserve heat. I remeber never wanting to be inside any more than necessary because the house had no ac, and hanging clothes on a clothes line to save a little on the utility bill, and a lot of other things that would send current folks over the edge. When I was growing up we had ONE TV for the entire house, and my parents dictated when and what we watched on it.

We are a land of privileged people who believe that they are entitled to whatever they want, whether they earned it or not.

SO WHAT... this still does not address the point I made. The average cost of a house today is significantly MORE today when compared to the average wages earned. Thats a fact jack. You accuse me of nonsequinter and then charge right into your own head on. Project much? Even then all those things you cite are next to meaningless. I could outfit my whole house with TVs for 1/10th the cost in relation to wages of the one TV you grew up on. Thats because technology drops in price. Heck drive around cap hill for a few hours and I could do it for free. The cost of those building supplies back then was just as much. They were just old tech compared to the stuff now.

You old guys are just out of touch and blame everyone for not having to walk uphill both ways to school. I got news for you -todays generation is worse off because of you selfish people before them. The me generation that wanted everything now, well they elected people who gave you tax breaks and put the bill on a credit card.

[spqrzilla]

SO WHAT... this still does not address the point I made. The average cost of a house today is significantly MORE today when compared to the average wages earned. Thats a fact jack. You accuse me of nonsequinter and then charge right into your own head on. Project much? Even then all those things you cite are next to meaningless. I could outfit my whole house with TVs for 1/10th the cost in relation to wages of the one TV you grew up on. Thats because technology drops in price. Heck drive around cap hill for a few hours and I could do it for free. The cost of those building supplies back then was just as much. They were just old tech compared to the stuff now.

You old guys are just out of touch and blame everyone for not having to walk uphill both ways to school. I got news for you -todays generation is worse off because of you selfish people before them. The me generation that wanted everything now, well they elected people who gave you tax breaks and put the bill on a credit card.

Utter nonsense. First of all, his comment directly addressed your point. You just don't understand it. You compare the cost of housing but don't realize that your comparison fails because you are not comparing equivalents. When its pointed out to you, you don't even pay attention.

Second, today's generation is not worse off in terms of living standards. Today's generation expects to enjoy things that previous generations could not afford to have if they even existed. When I was growing up, no one had cell phones. Only the elite had mobile phones, which were fixed installations in cars. If you wanted to call someone while away from home or office, you used pay phones. Today's generation probably never even uses pay phones if they could even find them.

The point about housing was specifically that you compare the amount of income spent on housing but you fail to compare how that housing is larger, has more amenities, and often has smaller households in it. Young people today think that they are entitled to separate housing at earlier ages. The distribution of home ownership expanded greatly during the housing bubble. There are equivalents at all levels. Personal music players to cars that last longer and need less service to theater quality home video.

But this all goes over your head.

[dwalker460]

Pre-WW2 and immediately after the typical American Family did not use credit, nor did they have 2 cars, a TV in every room of the house, etc. We lived within our means, as the saying goes. If you did not work, you did not eat. Welfare was provided for by the Church, and healthcare was provided for the needy by the charity of the doctors.

What changed?

We became a credit based economy
Charity from doctors and other organizations went away when they figured out they would be sued for their kindness at any moment
Our propganda machine has convinced every single American that at 16 you are owed a newer model car, that children do not need to work in addition to study, and that its OK to be in debt.
Our welfare programs are no longer locally based, but a huge government entity that is played like a fine instrument by the dregs of our society.

It is a sincere mis-step to blame this on the politicians, when it is society itself that propagates this mentality.

Want to restore our economic might? Try family values and the idea that discipline is a cornerstone of society, and that includes the teaching of children to not be a waste of humanity. Stop blaming political parties and start looking around and blaming your neighbor who collects foodstamps and a disability check while riding around in a new Escalade. Become involved in your local community without expecting anything from it. Chastise, and I literally mean embarass the hell out of those who prey upon the system and when a Liberal whackjob is appalled that you spoke the truth, embarass them for being so weak minded as to think that giving people what they want is the answer, and that if it hurts your feelings to be called a name, or to be told to go get a job, well then perhaps you are better off living in the woods away from the rest of us.

But its time to stop this bullshit of claiming the two parties are the same. Conservatism and being a Republican are not the same as being a Liberal, and it is simply beyond stupid the way some of you attempt to justify blaming both parties. Do you understand how politics work? Because I get a sincere feeling that few of the third partiers and malcontents that comment in these threads have any idea of anything except to complain and spew out canned arguments. Having dealt with professional organizations, clubs, etc. for most of my life I have more knowledge than I ever wanted about politics and how one gets things done, so it is second nature to me to look into the heart of an issue and see the truth behind it before placing blame.

[Byte Stryke]

when we get done celebrating diversity and being whatever-Americans, pool together and just become Americans, when we stop fighting and bickering among ourselves, we can get out of this.
Until then we will continue to tear this country apart.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln

[Pancho Villa]

It was a lot.

Oh, sorry...the other guys spent a lot too! Sometimes more!

Have to tow the party line.

[dwalker460]

It was a lot.

Oh, sorry...the other guys spent a lot too! Sometimes more!

Have to TOE the party line.

FIFY-

Also, I get that you think its cool to be some sort of radical, but the reality is that in reading your posts, I, and I believe most others, come to the conclusion your simply full of crap. You chastise a guy for investing in stocks, but have nothing to back up your criticism. You criticize the political parties, yet offer up no reasonable solutions or alternatives. Maybe its time you woke up and faced the reality of the situation, and started to act like a responsible human being and offer solutions and solid input instead of snide comments and regurgitated drivel.

[nynco]

I can buy a TV right now for 10 dollars on craigs list used. In fact I can pick them up free all day long. There is no equivalent to having a house full of TVs today and only one when you were a kid. Heck I gave 3 away in the last year myself. So yeah I can afford to enjoy what you did not have or barely had. That is how the world works. Cost of those "luxories" went down. What todays generation enjoys that you did not is the debt you left, the college school system that has risen over 800% more in cost than inflation, A system that forces them to take loans that can NEVER BE BANKRUPTED OUT OF... which basically is the modern form of share cropping, wages that have half the purchasing power and houses that cost 3 times as much..... whooo hoooo its all about a TV though.

If it is going over any ones head it is right over yours.

[dwalker460]

I can buy a TV right now for 10 dollars on craigs list used. In fact I can pick them up free all day long. There is no equivalent to having a house full of TVs today and only one when you were a kid. Heck I gave 3 away in the last year myself. So yeah I can afford to enjoy what you did not have or barely had. That is how the world works. Cost of those "luxories" went down. What todays generation enjoys that you did not is the debt you left, the college school system that has risen over 800% more in cost than inflation, A system that forces them to take loans that can NEVER BE BANKRUPTED OUT OF... which basically is the modern form of share cropping, wages that have half the purchasing power and houses that cost 3 times as much..... whooo hoooo its all about a TV though.

If it is going over any ones head it is right over yours.

You are literally the most ignorant person I have had the pleasure of addressing in recent memory.

My college tuition in 1990 was $600 for 15 credit hours, which was full time back then. My tuition rose steadly because of the mandatory programs the school had to offer, NOT because new buildings were built, or professors got pay increases, or higher percentages of new equipment was bought. However because the college had to offer a lot of "free" programs for "disadvantaged" students, tuition rose. And its going to keep rising because while the tuition for those who can pay goes up, it does so to pay for those who cannot pay. Not everyone goes to college, nor should they.

The TV thing is an example of the gluttony of those who cannot afford it. As a specific example-

I had an employee a couple of years ago who made part time pay, and worked part time hours. I paid him one Friday and the following Monday and Tuesday he did not show up for work. I asked him on Wednesday why. He told me he did not have the money for gas for his car. Huh.... So I responded that I had just paid him on Friday, what happened? He replied he has bills to pay.. cell phone, X-box or whatever game accounts, his car insurance, etc. and just didnt have anything left. I was shocked, and asked how does a 19yr old kid living at home have so many bills he cant afford to put gas in his car to get to work? We all have bills I told him, but we plan ahead so that we can get to work, and even if it works out we have no gas money, we get a friend or family member to help us out. I let him go about a week later. I spoke with his dad a few weeks after and he had no idea of this, and flat told me that he would have given his son the money to get to work, and had no idea his son was squandering every dime he made.

Its a sign of the times. The average American has no savings, has more debt than thier yearly income, and is less than two months of unemployment from insolvency. We need to fix that, and it starts by teaching responsibility, not the BS theories of those who have never worked for a living.