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  1. #81
    The "Godfather" of COAR Great-Kazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMB2 View Post
    I said borderline lured.

    I say this because his own admission was that it was several minutes between the boy and the girl..... Instead of calling the police in this time frame as any rational human being would do..... he drug the boy out of the stair well and onto a tarp, probably to not alarm any other intruder coming down. Remember, he said he wanted them both dead.... a dead body at the bottom of the stair well would of made the girl freak out.

    He sat back down and waited, this is his own admission. Therefore I perceive these actions as borderline luring the girl into the basement.

    As for how I would of handed the situation.... he had plenty of time to phone the police before his first encounter with the boy. Calling the police would of been my first move......

    Secondly, its 1pm on Thanksgiving..... not typical armed robbery hours. I would of probably waited to see who it was before firing at someones legs, could of been anyone, but lets just say I am an idiot and I shot someone in the waist.... as they tumbled down the stairs, I walk over and realize that this is a young man, unarmed, myself or my wife would of phoned the police while I grabbed my IFAK.

    If while I was treating him I heard more footsteps, I would of dropped what I was doing and grabbed my fire arm... chances are he would of told me that it was his dumbass fawking cousin, I would of told them to stop moving. (escalation of force)... by this time I'm very sure police would of already been on the scene, probably before the girl was heard upstairs when 911 gets a phone call that someone is shot.

    I agree until there is a clear threat, you do not discharge your firearm. Yes it could have been your drunk BIL who never gave you back that key.

    With that out of the way............................................... .........................................
    Exactly what time is a typical robbery, after lunch, appetizers? Dude, i'd like to hit that bitches house over on stafford but like 20 minutes to wopner.
    Uninvited people in your home very rarely have "good intentions"
    Last edited by Great-Kazoo; 11-28-2012 at 23:50.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Dialing 911 and staying on line. IF there is no way out find something to get behind. If there is a way out are you sure no other members are lurking. Stay put, stay alert and stay on line, with the 911 dispatcher.
    The guy murdered them, by his own statement, put a gun to their head (loosely interpreted) and executed them. As a gun owner and very Pro 2A supporter there is (IMO) no way i can defend this guy, again, by his own statement to the police.
    Agreed 100%

    I also am a very Pro 2A, and I agree that there is no way I can support or defend what he did. Actions like this do not support the 2A, the 2A was not put in place to let you do things like this, and it gives fuel to the gun grabbers.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Exactly what time is a typical robbery, after lunch, appetizers? Dude, i'd like to hit that bitches house over on stafford but like 20 minutes to wopner.
    Treating him???? he was trespassing in YOUR HOME, Intent UNKNOWN, Potential for bodily harm to you or a loved one. JUST Because one is unarmed, does not mean they are not a THREAT. If they are moving they are a threat. keep them covered and wait for police to be on site.
    Uninvited people in your home very rarely have "good intentions"
    Sorry, not going to let someone die on my floor if I can help it. I would much rather them pay the piper through the legal system than die and have that on my conscious.

    This goes back to training and experience.

    Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

    EDIT:

    I should clarify. A non life threatening, debilitating wound.... I'll let them sit there in pain... think about the actions that brought them to this point.

    A life threatening wound that needs immediate attention, I am 100% going to start treating them, not watch them die.

    UNLESS... they were armed and engaged, or tried to engage me. I will then treat you like an armed combatant, and I will kill you. You may feel I have too much compassion or mercy for scum bags, but this is just how I would honestly deal with it.
    Last edited by NMB2; 11-29-2012 at 00:01.

  4. #84
    The "Godfather" of COAR Great-Kazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMB2 View Post
    Sorry, not going to let someone die on my floor if I can help it. I would much rather them pay the piper through the legal system than die and have that on my conscious. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
    I re edited my post as you were replying.
    If i engaged a threat, it's up to the para's to keep him breathing. If it was my dumb ass neighbor i'm doing everything i can.
    Then again as mentioned, IDENTIFY the Threat, Be sure it is a threat, then take what ever action you feel is necessary. BUT be prepared for the aftermath, That's the long rough ride.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I re edited my post as you were replying.
    If i engaged a threat, it's up to the para's to keep him breathing. If it was my dumb ass neighbor i'm doing everything i can.
    Then again as mentioned, IDENTIFY the Threat, Be sure it is a threat, then take what ever action you feel is necessary. BUT be prepared for the aftermath, That's the long rough ride.
    I edited mine too! LOL

  6. #86
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    While what I think he did was definitely crossing the line, I at the same time don't think he needs to be charged. they broke in. If they wouldn't have done that, this wouldn't have happened. bottom line he defended his home, I question his tactics but I don't want to see home defense rights getting questioned when they are in their home.
    All I have in this world is my balls and my word and I don't break em for no one.

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  7. #87
    The "Godfather" of COAR Great-Kazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper7 View Post
    While what I think he did was definitely crossing the line, I at the same time don't think he needs to be charged. they broke in. If they wouldn't have done that, this wouldn't have happened. bottom line he defended his home, I question his tactics but I don't want to see home defense rights getting questioned when they are in their home.
    IF, IF he dialed 911 while in progress yes. Waiting until the next day, the jury & media will have a field day with Premeditated.
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  8. #88
    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Dialing 911 and staying on line. IF there is no way out find something to get behind. If there is a way out are you sure no other members are lurking. Stay put, stay alert and stay on line, with the 911 dispatcher.
    The guy murdered them, by his own statement, put a gun to their head (loosely interpreted) and executed them. As a gun owner and very Pro 2A supporter there is (IMO) no way i can defend this guy, again, by his own statement to the police.
    I'm not saying he didn't murder them, nor am I defending his actions. Instead, I am disagreeing with the leaps that I feel NMB2 is taking to make conclusions from the very little actual evidence that has been provided.

    I'll show you what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMB2 View Post
    I said borderline lured.

    I say this because his own admission was that it was several minutes between the boy and the girl..... Instead of calling the police in this time frame as any rational human being would do..... he drug the boy out of the stair well and onto a tarp, probably to not alarm any other intruder coming down. Remember, he said he wanted them both dead.... a dead body at the bottom of the stair well would of made the girl freak out. From the perspective of the girl upstairs, what is the difference between the guy in the basement getting on the phone to the police, and the guy not calling the police? Nothing. Whether he called the police or not is entirely irrelevant in the context of whether the girl was lured or not. If she didn't hear two shots from a rifle, it is unlikely that the sound of a one sided phone call would warn her to get out of the house. Before all of this though, what actions did the guy take to get boy into the house first?

    He sat back down and waited, this is his own admission. Therefore I perceive these actions as borderline luring the girl into the basement. Again, luring implies the use of bait or some other incentive. Doing nothing, is not indicative of luring.

    As for how I would of handed the situation.... he had plenty of time to phone the police before his first encounter with the boy. Calling the police would of been my first move......I'm not necessarily asking what you would have done. We all would have called the police, assuming a phone was available. Since we do not know if a phone was available, what are the options for this situation in the simplest form? Stay in basement, or leave basement. You've got someone who broke a window to get in, and is no longer a threat, and you hear someone else walking around upstairs, regardless of calling the police, you are still faced with the options of stay in basement, or leave the basement. If there is no outside entrance to the basement, then the only way out of the basement is toward the person/people who've broken into your home. Given those options, I'd stay in the basement. On a side note, you already know there are at least two people, so there is the chance that there are more, and going outside could be the same as going upstairs. That point is neither here nor there since we don't know if there was a door and a reasonable and prudent person may not assume they are under siege by a gang of people.

    Secondly, its 1pm on Thanksgiving..... not typical armed robbery hours. I would of probably waited to see who it was before firing at someones legs, could of been anyone, but lets just say I am an idiot and I shot someone in the waist.... as they tumbled down the stairs, I walk over and realize that this is a young man, unarmed, myself or my wife would of phoned the police while I grabbed my IFAK. What are the typical armed robbery hours? Armed robbery suggests a premeditated offense where resistance may be encountered. You can't meet resistance if no one is home. 1pm on Thanksgiving is a safe bet someone could be there. They weren't armed anyway, so let's move on. In what situation do you wait to see who is in your home, when they've entered by breaking a window? It is not likely that it is your aunt with her pumpkin pie.

    If while I was treating him I heard more footsteps, I would of dropped what I was doing and grabbed my fire arm... chances are he would of told me that it was his dumbass fawking cousin, I would of told them to stop moving. (escalation of force)... by this time I'm very sure police would of already been on the scene, probably before the girl was heard upstairs when 911 gets a phone call that someone is shot. When you heard glass breaking upstairs, you wanted to wait and see who it was. After you've shot an unarmed kid, and you hear a second set of footsteps, now is the time to grab your gun?
    Here is what I think. Some low-life kids, broke into a low-life guy's house. He murdered them and now he is going to prison. That community has 3 less people to concern themselves with and you are way over thinking this whole thing.
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  9. #89
    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    IF, IF he dialed 911 while in progress yes. Waiting until the next day, the jury & media will have a field day with Premeditated.
    If you are sitting a traffic light and get rear-ended, but you don't report the accident until 3 days later, does that make you at fault? Is there a law or statute that mandates that you must report that a crime has happened?
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  10. #90
    The "Godfather" of COAR Great-Kazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving View Post
    If you are sitting a traffic light and get rear-ended, but you don't report the accident until 3 days later, does that make you at fault? Is there a law or statute that mandates that you must report that a crime has happened?
    WTF a car accident vs 2 dead??????? When shots are fired inside your home, or anytime use of force is the only option, you bet.
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