Hunters versus Shooters

[ColoradoShooter]

I became a shooter because I am a hunter. Now, I am both.

I was hanging out over in the "I'm disappointed in the NRA" forum (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8701) where folks were discussing the merits and lack thereof of the various gun rights groups.

Then it got a little off topic, but it got me to thinking.

Then, I came across the following blog post by Michael Bane today that seems to tie things together again.... And, rather than hijack that thread, I thought I would carry the conversation over here.

Here is the post (and if you read the dialog between me and others in the last couple of pages of the NRA thread, you'll see the connection).

Thoughts about this article?

Saturday, June 07, 2008

Hunters vs. Shooters

I posted this rant on a DRTV thread on "Hunters vs. Shooters," and upon reflection thought it needed to be a blog post as well:

You guys know this is a subject that has been on my front burner for years, right?

I stopped hunting a long time ago, largely because I have the attention span of an 8 year-old...made me a good IPSC shooter and a miserable person in a tree stand. Hunting and shooting are, in fact, two sides of the same coin. My gripe was that hunting was the giganto senior partner, to the virtual exclusion of the shooting sports side of the coin.

Several things have happened to change that perception:

• Eventually, people in the industry started listening to me and other voices, like Paul Erhardt, Jim Shepherd, Tom Taylor at S&W, Steve Sanetti and Ken Jorgensen at Ruger, Paul Januzzo (formerly) at Glock, etc. When I keynoted the last huge hunting enclave several years ago — the guy who was there to tell people what they didn't want to hear — my comments were met with stony silence. I said the truth — deal with us, work with us, because we're half the market and we pay 75% of the excise taxes that state fish and game run on...I said taxation without representation is STILL tyranny...one of the reps from a huge hunting accessories company pigeonholed me after the talk..."Good work, jerk," he said, although he used a stronger word than "jerk." "You're single-handedly going to tear this industry to pieces."

However, at the upcoming NSSF Shooting Sports Summit in a couple of weeks, the list of speakers has totally changed...me, Erhardt, Shepherd, Sanetti (now head of NSSF), etc.

Even more importantly, for the first time we have a definitive study that totally backs up everything we've been saying...the (as yet unreleased) omnibus NSSF study on hunting and shooting trends in the United States. It's scary negative, but here's the key stat...of the overall market:

• 43% define themselves as primarily hunting
• 43% define themselves as primarily shooters
• 14% do both

EQUAL MARKETS, as we've been saying for the better part of a decade!

• The Zumbo Effect...no other single event had the profound effect on the industry as the slagging of Jim Zumbo. Jim made his ill-thought-out remarks on a Friday afternoon; by Sunday evening the entire firearms industry understood who was now driving the machine. I've told Jim to his face that I was sorry for the role I had to play, but that it had to be done! We could not continue, much less go into another election cycle, with everyone, including Congress, acting like "hunting" and "shooting" were synonymous, so all anybody needed to do to suck up to us was conserve some wetlands and talk about ducks!

• The ascendency of the AR-15 platform as the most popular rifle on earth...when I first started talking about the size and depth of the black rifle market 3 or 4 years ago, I was flatly told by "industry experts" that I was crazy. This numbers are now accepted as the baseline (and 2008 sales, driven by Obama, are at levels that are already breath-taking even to me). OUTDOOR LIFE magazine considers my 6-page article on ARs in the field a year or so ago to be one of the most important articles they've ever published, and it laid to rest the naysayers.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/HP_ADM%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]• The rise of industry "heroes," like the inestimable Ronnie Barrett, who showed everyone what "standing up" looked like, and people like the aforementioned Sanetti, Taylor, Jorgensen, Bob Morrison at Taurus, former NSSF head Doug Painter and NSSF legal expert Larry Keene, former NRA Prez Sandy Froman and new Prez John Siglar and many others, who understood and understand that the world is changing and were willing to put the gun culture first.

I've said this before, we go into the most important elections of our lives more united than we've ever been before. We on the shooting side need to reach out to the hunting side...there is still some awkwardness, but nothing we can't overcome.

Make no mistake about it...the gun culture is going to war. The Democrats have given in to their basest instincts and given us a candidate who, all hyperbole aside, will if he gets the power take our guns — all our guns! — and gut the Second Amendment, a man who holds what we believe in to the core of our beings in utter contempt.

I watched Bob Barr on Glenn Beck last night. Bob is a man I've met, a man I hugely respect, a warrior, a man who has a spot-on analysis of America at this juncture...and a man I will not vote for this November! If te Dems had run one of their "political whore" candidates, maybe even the lovely and talented Hillary Clinton, I might have opted to vote Libertarian, where my heart is, rather than for a man I particularly dislike who champions a morally and ethically bankrupt political party of weasels and morons.

But that's not what the Dems have done...they've played the scary card.

And as is typical, we as a voting block are invisible. Ever wonder why the MSM never seems to mention guns as a major battleground? Because they totally understand, as do the Dems, that the more invisible we are, the easier we are to step on after the election. Is there anybody here who doesn't believe that an Obama as President with a huge majority Democratic House and Senate won't do exactly what he says he will do and ram through a new — and permanent — AWB? Ammo controls like microstamping? "Smart gun" initiatives and restrictions on "unsafe" guns? Closing public lands to shooting? Lots and lots of "reasonable" gun laws...

Okay, rant mode off...remember, my job is to be strident, because so many in our culture aren't.

[HunterCO]

I started hunting very young and that has and always will be a passion of mine. I never owned any guns other than for hunting until I was almost 30 years old. I am now an NFA owner and still hunt every chance I get, not to mention my black rifle disease.

I will hunt untill I take my last breath if I have a say in it. I also am an avid shooter. I don't get why we as gun owners can not unite I am a hunter, shooter, collector and even enjoy some tactical competitions.

Alan, Zack, Hoser just to name a few place comp shoots above anything else I on the other hand would rather hunt or shoot for fun. I don't see the big deal to each their own. We all get along and sometimes I cross into their world and they cross into mine.

In the end as Ben Franklin said, We better all stick together or we will all hang seperately.

Add me to the 14% I live in both worlds. I am a fudd at heart and it pisses me off when a certain site (that shall go nameless) bashes fudds all the time. I sure know a whole lot of fudds that feel the same way I do. I would be more than willing to repeal the 86 MG ban to see my 12K sear worth $50 in a heart beat.

Good post coloradoshooter.

[Hoser]

Alan, Zack, Hoser just to name a few place comp shoots above anything else I on the other hand would rather hunt or shoot for fun.

Matches are just a way for me to stay sharp when I am not hunting...

In fact, I spend a lot of time in Wyoming hunting. More and more time every winter. More expensive than Colorado, but a lot less BS.

[HunterCO]

Matches are just a way for me to stay sharp when I am not hunting...

In fact, I spend a lot of time in Wyoming hunting. More and more time every winter. More expensive than Colorado, but a lot less BS.

I stand corrected Tom thought you where more of a comp guy than anything else. I spend to much on hunting to shoot all the matches wish I could shoot more matches.

[ColoradoShooter]

Great comments. Good to see so many thoughtful posts.


Where to start?

As many have said in their own words, and now I say again in mine:

Guns are tools. Some use their tools for hunting and others for fun, self-defense, competitive purposes, or whatever.

Those (for example, hunters) who think the anti's do NOT see their guns as the next item to ban, are sadly in denial.

If it were "the the way (use) guns were used" the anti's were after, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it clearly is the tools - regardless of use - they want to ban. All would do well to keep this in mind.

Today's - your/our - hunting rifle, was yesterday's "assualt rifle" remember that the next time you fondly hold grandpa's lever action .30-30...and wonder why anyone would need one of those black rifles.

Truth be told, I used to be (more-or-less) a hunter who only shot a few time a year - mainly to sight in but occasionally for fun. But I am definitely one of the (growing we hope) 14%. So, there is hope.

We've heard of taking a newbie shooting, but what if we all took "only-a-hunter" out to shoot our ARs, like Ted Nuget took Zumbo..

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/bu...=1&oref=slogin


Other:

In all frankness though, there is nothing in the constitution that protects hunting, yet hunting is far less regulated than firearm ownership; not that it isn't without its legislative issues. Hunting is also one of the few firearm related sports that is not entirely dependant on the right to bear arms (archery, trapping, etc.) I'm there to fight for anti-hunting agendas, but my primary objective is saving the right to own, bear, and shoot all types of firearms, regardless of for what purpose.

+1!

Oh yeah, and in regards to not hunting big game because you don't like the meat...come with me and I'll get you into the game, and you can donate the meat to me.

If I could, that's about all the meat I'd eat. It is primarily what I eat anyway... (BTW, I'm primarily a meat hunter, trophies only by exception..never figured out a way to make them tasty yet! :-)

Hmmm, ...I think the biggest problem is the "us vs. them" attitude in the NRA.(I am a voting member). ...The NRA does not do a good enough job, in my opinion, in looking after the rights of ALL gun owners, but the NRA "us" is the biggest and most visible pro-gun group. There is safety in numbers. We all should be members, like it or not. ...we should all be defending the other guys RIGHT to own and shoot...It's about everyone being included, which is the great thing about this site). Ryan

+1!

[7idl]

First of all,

all hunters are not 'fudds'

pretty much all 'fudds' are hunters.

fudds are those 'morally' superior types who think that the 2nd was put there so they could hunt. They have the attitude you'll hear most offen as "what would anyone need one of those for?" or "they're not coming after my "HUNTING" rifle, why should I care?"


there is a whole bunch of other crap that goes along with it.


the majority of the people over at that 'other' site know which end is up ....(well, used to be that way, there has been an influx of punks who got nothing better to do than be trolls, but they show their colors soon enough and are dealt with)



main point that we need to get across is that the anti-freedom types want ALL firearms. The sooner we can get all users of firearms to gather together for the one true cause (Freedom) the sooner we can make things change. The "fudd" types don't help and neither do the snob skeet/trap, duck hunters, target shooters, ahole dealers...the list goes on.




oh, for the record, I too was brought up hunting, but I was also taught about the importantance of firearms ownership and the responsibilities that go with it. I also shoot competitivley. I have nothing against any firearms user group unless they detract from our rights or project a bad image which has the same result.


one more thing..

if the shoe fits............

[SigsRule]

+1

I'm firmly in both camps. Because of time issues the only hunting I do these days is for Elk but the prairie dogs and pheasants shouldn't get too comfortable. I'm honing my shooting skills shooting IDPA and burning lots of powder through my XCR and FAL.

[RYAN50BMG]

Hmmm, Where do I start? I am not a hunter, not that I have a problem with that, unless you are a poacher looking for that trophy rack, I just don't have the time or patience. I like to shoot. I would shoot competively, but standing around for two hours to shoot for 30 seconds (12.5 if you'r Tom) drives me crazy. I think the biggest problem is the "us vs. them" attitude in the NRA.(I am a voting member). How many times have you gone to a range only to have someone villify you for your black rifle "Why do you need that?". The NRA does not do a good enough job, in my opinion, in looking after the rights of ALL gun owners, but the NRA "us" is the biggest and most visible pro-gun group. There is safety in numbers. We all should be members, like it or not. Whether you hunt or not, shoot trap/skeet or not, shoot competively or not, or just want to blast away with machineguns(@75$ per 100 rds of .308), we should all be defending the other guys RIGHT to own and shoot. That is the great thing about this site. Not only do you not need to have an AR-15, you don't have to have any gun at all. Just show up, someone will let you try out their toy.( Thats why I get pissed about "LE only shoots", It's not about cops, It's about everyone being included, which is the great thing about this site). Ryan

[banks74]

Great post ColoradoShooter! It is so true how divided we are. There is the certain group of hunters who only shoot when they zero their rifles and during the hunt. Then there is the "shooter's" who pump out thousands of rounds a year for fun, competition, and practice. I am in the 14%. I hunt a whole lot (have since I was little), and I also love to shoot (thousands of rounds a year for fun, practice, and hopefully soon competition). It seems the black gun crowd understands the attacks on our freedoms better than the "purist hunter's" (for lack of a better term for them) because the firearms we own are continually targeted by the anti's. My hope is that the "purist hunters" will come to understand that the anti's are after all firearms (which include's their deer rifles, side by side bird guns etc.) not just black rifles. I hope we can come to understand each other better and unite as one.

[banks74]

Whether you hunt or not, shoot trap/skeet or not, shoot competively or not, or just want to blast away with machineguns(@75$ per 100 rds of .308), we should all be defending the other guys RIGHT to own and shoot. That is the great thing about this site. Not only do you not need to have an AR-15, you don't have to have any gun at all. Just show up, someone will let you try out their toy.

Great point!