Policeman gets owned by law student

[spyder]

Um, I think you mis-read that, I am pointing out that the view of simply exercising your right to OC is viewed as "asking for" police contact is wrong, and complete crap. I agree with all your other points. Concealed permits are BS and an invasion of my privacy. Background checks are a 4th Amendment violation- how it ever got approved that it is OK for the government to make you PROVE you are OK to earn a gun rather than them proving you arent is beyond me. Innocent until proven guilty... ring any bells?

Gocha, I thought you were calling open carry bullshit, and said that anyone who did was asking for it. Ok. Well there are the open carry haters on here, and I usually tell them all to screw off as the right to carry shouldn't depend on rather someone has an extra $200. If that price goes away, and open carry is free, then yes, I will agree that open carry is at that point, and that point only, a bad idea.

[Ronin13]

So when you're carrying a video camera, you're looking for a confrontation? Because I'm trying to figure out what you think this kid did differently to draw attention that any other person OC'ing wouldn't also be doing (namely, walking around with a gun on your hip). If he was purposely going around trying to scare people, then he may have been breaking the law. But since the cop didn't arrest him, I assume that wasn't the case. He was literally just minding his own business, and had a video camera (probably his cell phone) on him, and was ready to use it.

[/COLOR]
Ronin I actually think we are assuming a lot that the kid was looking for a confrontation. From the video what I get is:

Guy is walking down the street, folks call the cops- we are actually assuming that based on the officers statement, we do not KNOW that the cop didnt see the guy walking along and made the stop, then backed it up with a BS story about complaints. See? I can ASSume as well.

Cop relieves the citizen of his weapon, which apparently the citizen did with no drama. The citizen gets concerned this might not be going his way, and starts recording.

Cop makes a lot of stupid mistakes- Citizen gets a little testy and just wants to go.

Thinking it over again, I would have not even been as nice as the citizen and probably would have gone to jail, because the cop was full of shit.

Bullshit open carry is "asking for it", any more than driving a red Corvette is "asking for it". No excuse for this behavior.

Seriously, step away from the cop juice.

So either BACK THE 2nd, or get off this bus ok?

To point out in both of these... are you both going to throw a hissy fit and start phoning lawyers if you OC and someone calls the cops? I never said the cop in the video was right- in fact I believe he was wrong from the start. But the kid's attitude and reaction could have been better. So because he's standing up for his rights, but doing it in a less than effective (and IMHO dickish) way I have to "back him or get off the bus"? I'm simply trying to convey the point that Open carry is very likely to attract unwanted/unneeded attention from "concerned" yet uninformed citizens, and possible LE. Again, I don't believe this is right, but it is what it is... I for one support OC, I just choose not to do it out in public very often, and I'm very selective as to where I do for the fact that I don't want the attention that comes with it. dwalker, I never said someone OCing is "asking for it" I'm simply saying thanks to our current society and social atmosphere if you OC in an area like Downtown Arvada or any other populated area, you can expect the possibility that someone will call 911. I seriously don't understand how you guys can't grasp this simple point I'm trying to make and accept it... or are you just wanting to argue with me?

[dwalker460]

To point out in both of these... are you both going to throw a hissy fit and start phoning lawyers if you OC and someone calls the cops? I never said the cop in the video was right- in fact I believe he was wrong from the start.

No one is saying they were going to phone lawyers, where do you get that?

But the kid's attitude and reaction could have been better.

The more I think about it I think the kids reaction is fine. He was relieved of his weapon and the cop had zero reason for contacting him, beyond the fact he had a firearm on him. Walking down the street with a gun on your hip is not a reason for LEO to contact you. The officer was wrong from the word go.

So because he's standing up for his rights, but doing it in a less than effective (and IMHO dickish) way I have to "back him or get off the bus"? I'm simply trying to convey the point that Open carry is very likely to attract unwanted/unneeded attention from "concerned" yet uninformed citizens, and possible LE.

The officer has no excuse, its his job to know. Its also his job to know that just because someone calls something in, doesnt mean he needs to harass a private citizen walking down the street. This is not martial law, and there are rules we all need to follow. The kid was following the rules. The cop was not. Dickish or not, the cop was wrong and the kid was right. Period, end of list.

Again, I don't believe this is right, but it is what it is... I for one support OC, I just choose not to do it out in public very often, and I'm very selective as to where I do for the fact that I don't want the attention that comes with it.

I am not getting that from your earlier posts. I get the idea that you feel anyone open carrying is only doing so to attract attention. This is a very poor stance and you should maybe re-assess your point of view on this.

dwalker, I never said someone OCing is "asking for it" I'm simply saying thanks to our current society and social atmosphere if you OC in an area like Downtown Arvada or any other populated area, you can expect the possibility that someone will call 911. I seriously don't understand how you guys can't grasp this simple point I'm trying to make and accept it... or are you just wanting to argue with me?

I am not trying to argue with you, but you were quite vocal and adamant that the kid should have expected to be contacted by LEO for just walking down the street and should have just accepted it and kowtowed to the officers demands and "just went along with it". Sorry, no. Police officers deserve respect for the job they do, but they do not have any right to just stop a citizen walking along the street with a gun on thier hip just because. Thats not an opinion, its the LAW, which is what the officers are supposed to not only understand, but to follow as well as enforce.

ETA- I have been contacted by the police while open carrying a couple of times. None of those experiences left me fond of the way officers tend to view armed citizens. A couple were fine and handled professionally, a couple were not and I threw a bloody fit. I have also had an officer draw their weapon on me. Forgive me if I have a dim view of the way police tend to regard armed citizens, but thats just how it is.

[Ronin13]

No one is saying they were going to phone lawyers, where do you get that?

The impression that I got... someone mentioned lawsuit somewhere...

The more I think about it I think the kids reaction is fine. He was relieved of his weapon and the cop had zero reason for contacting him, beyond the fact he had a firearm on him. Walking down the street with a gun on your hip is not a reason for LEO to contact you. The officer was wrong from the word go.

I agree.

The officer has no excuse, its his job to know. Its also his job to know that just because someone calls something in, doesnt mean he needs to harass a private citizen walking down the street. This is not martial law, and there are rules we all need to follow. The kid was following the rules. The cop was not. Dickish or not, the cop was wrong and the kid was right. Period, end of list.

I also agree with this, but the street is, as has been stated a lot on here before, not the place to fight it, unless you like being put in handcuffs, regardless of legal or not, some cops out there are unfamiliar with the law.

I am not getting that from your earlier posts. I get the idea that you feel anyone open carrying is only doing so to attract attention. This is a very poor stance and you should maybe re-assess your point of view on this.

No, the impression I got from this video (why else did he post it to youtube and/or memorize case law?) was that he was trolling for cops to interact with him so he could look like legal beagle billy badass- perception, perhaps not reality, but I know I'm not alone in thinking this.

I am not trying to argue with you, but you were quite vocal and adamant that the kid should have expected to be contacted by LEO for just walking down the street and should have just accepted it and kowtowed to the officers demands and "just went along with it". Sorry, no. Police officers deserve respect for the job they do, but they do not have any right to just stop a citizen walking along the street with a gun on thier hip just because. Thats not an opinion, its the LAW, which is what the officers are supposed to not only understand, but to follow as well as enforce.

I agree with you... but it's the way you handle the situation- first, and most important, be calm, cool, and respectful in dealings with LEOs. Are you required to surrender your firearm if a cop just walks up to talk to you? I'm not 100% sure on this, but if you aren't being suspected of committing a crime or breaking any law, walk away would be the best option. Unless you're under arrest/breaking a law/suspected of breaking a law I don't see how LEOs have any just ground to have you surrender your gun and/or show ID... But rattling off case laws that obviously most cops are oblivious to only serves the purpose to come off looking like you're trying to say "I'm smarter than you, now step off." That's how I would take it if I was just checking out a guy carrying a gun and he shot back with "Well, pfft, in Doe v. Virginia... blah blah blah" I'd think this kid is an asshole. Wouldn't it be perfectly fine to say "No sir, I have broken no law, I will not surrender my firearm, and I respectfully decline to show you my ID. Now if you don't mind I'm going about my business" ? Or Something along those lines?

[dwalker460]

Now your backpedaling. The kid was respectful the entire time. He asked specifically why he was being stopped, which is what I would do. He asked if the cop felt he was doing anything wrong or had commited a crime. Same thing I would do. The kid says, no, im not giving you my name or ID because its going to end up in some report somewhere, and you have no right to stop me. Where is your supervisor.

The cop was wrong. Paint it anyway you want, but as soon as the super got there it was over, because the super knew the law.

And walk away? Seriously? The cop had his gun, he asked several times to have it returned and to just walk on. Man just watch the video and pay attention to what actually happens.

Also, some people happen to know things, like case law, if he is a law student, he would know those things. And he did not start throwing around case law until the cop badgered him for his ID and name, which was WRONG. No matter how you slice it, the cop was wrong and the kid was right and if he hadnt had the video running probably would have gotten a nightstick upside his head to teach him "proper respect".

[generalmeow]

To point out in both of these... are you both going to throw a hissy fit and start phoning lawyers if you OC and someone calls the cops?

No, I'm going to be a huge prick to the cop that shows up if he doesn't know the law and starts trampling on my rights and is trying to steamroll me. Way more of a prick than this kid was, at least. And I would be wrong for doing so?

[Ronin13]

Now your backpedaling. The kid was respectful the entire time. He asked specifically why he was being stopped, which is what I would do. He asked if the cop felt he was doing anything wrong or had commited a crime. Same thing I would do. The kid says, no, im not giving you my name or ID because its going to end up in some report somewhere, and you have no right to stop me. Where is your supervisor.

The cop was wrong. Paint it anyway you want, but as soon as the super got there it was over, because the super knew the law.

And walk away? Seriously? The cop had his gun, he asked several times to have it returned and to just walk on. Man just watch the video and pay attention to what actually happens.

Also, some people happen to know things, like case law, if he is a law student, he would know those things. And he did not start throwing around case law until the cop badgered him for his ID and name, which was WRONG. No matter how you slice it, the cop was wrong and the kid was right and if he hadnt had the video running probably would have gotten a nightstick upside his head to teach him "proper respect".

You're right... I'm not going to argue this anymore- thinking on it he was in the right the entire time. I still would have refused to give up my gun.

[cmailliard]

What the hell, I usually don't get into to this stuff but I am in a mood

#1 The kid is a fucking idiot, YES it is your right, YES it is Legal to do so, but it is this kind of whistle dick that makes most "rational" gun owners look stupid.
#2 I am sure the Police know the law, did he try to push it a bit too far, yes. Make contact and determine intent. There is the other video out there where LE did it right, the first thing out of the LEO's mouth was something like "Thank you for exercising your 2A Rights. Just a couple questions and you will be on your way." That is all it takes.
#3 Somebody WILL call 911, fuck they call 911 for a drunk passed out on Colfax, there is drunk passed out on Colfax every other block. LE has a DUTY TO RESPOND and MAKE CONTACT.

Disclosure - Cops have saved my ass more than once, I respect them and the job they do.

[DingleBerns]

where's the FTP in this thread?!? Luckily i don't have to worry about OC since it's illegal in my city, but even if it wasn't I am still going to talk to you until you tell me to pound sand and attitude can go a long way. (where's the beating the horse smiley?)

[rondog]

where's the FTP in this thread?!? Luckily i don't have to worry about OC since it's illegal in my city, but even if it wasn't I am still going to talk to you until you tell me to pound sand and attitude can go a long way. (where's the beating the horse smiley?)

OC is illegal in Littleton? I thought it was just Denver and Boulder....where else is it illegal?