Christians on the board...

[griebel303]

Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I would rather be standing at the pearly gates a man who protected what he believed in, then a coward who hid. I am far from a perfect christian, but I think at the end of the day god knows what is truly in your heart and behind your actions, and that is what matters.

[Ronin13]

God bless... I mean, thanks for dropping in Luigi... I was just about to say, What's Mr. Bellavite's take on this issue. I do like how he, among so many Atheists/Agnostics I know, can actually respect a difference in beliefs, and even provide educational insight in discussions. I never mean any offense to you Luigi when comparing Obama to Satan... I guess I should go with Mao/Hitler/Stalin on that, huh?

[sellersm]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I would rather be standing at the pearly gates a man who protected what he believed in, then a coward who hid. I am far from a perfect christian, but I think at the end of the day god know what is truly in your heart and behind your actions, and that is what matters.

It's interesting, because in Revelations 21, verse 8, the cowardly are specifically mentioned:

⁸ But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

[wctriumph]

I try to live my life well and be a good husband and father and I try to be a genuinely nice guy and live by the Golden Rule which my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said:

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." (Although as my wife points out, I am just a little judgmental when it comes to other persons. Perhaps because of the quote below.)

I temper that by what a another wise man, my father, told me:

"People are no damn good."

Be a person of good character, tell the truth, defend yourself if needed, stand up to injustice and evil and say your prayers.

[Bentsight]

I'm with you there. I wouldn't hesitate to resist vehemently, answer with violence, or even lay down my life if needs be, in the defense of the things I hold dear. I believe God knows this about me, and is in control of which circumstances I'll be placed in in that regard.

^^^ THIS

[dan512]

Yeah, God is on the throne, He is in control. Those is power have been put there by Him. We are to submit to them unless they ask us to do something contrary to His law. This doesn't mean we blindly accept what is happening. We can speak against them, vote against them, run against them and ask others to do the same. We can't shoot them in their sleep.
They can kill my body, that would suck, but not as bad as Him sending me away from His presence.
Christianity pretty much promises suffering, espically for His name. We shouldn't be surprised.

[Sawin]

Dingo, you and I are of like mind, and I know there are many more on the forum like us. It's extremely difficult to be a good follower of Christ and I'm a horrible representation of him, that's for sure... That's where his grace proves quite helpful. Since I'm short of time at the moment (I'll try to reply again later today), I'll simply say this.

Along with the convictions and direction you've mentioned above, I'm a believer that the Lord will put an end to all of the chaos when he sees fit. While we should not live with our heads in the sand and entirely rely on blind faith, getting unhealthily wrapped up and concerned about the future of humanity does little to no good. Stay focused on the areas you can impact and be a blessing for your neighbor first, before trying to change the world.

I'll comment back about government, shortly.

As promised in my post this morning, I'd like to revisit this with respect to government implications.

Elected officials.. as much as we despise some of them at times, we cannot forget that they have been placed there by an all-knowing, all-controlling, gracious savior who sees the bigger picture. There's no way we can see the whole plan until afterward, so just keep watching and playing your role as best as you can. We are to obey the law of our land unless that law breaks the law of God (10 commandments are a good start).

An important point that a lot of folks don't recognize is that when we experience the worldly turmoil that we do, it is not due to the will of God that we feel the evil in our world. Just as cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God. This is the whole basis for being a light unto the world....

[Troublco]

I'm not exactly a poster child for my faith either, but I don't buy the idea that all our elected officials were placed there by the Lord. If that were the case, then King George was placed there by Him as well (as the King believed) and our Founding Fathers should have just knuckled under and dealt with their situation. Just because someone is elected, doesn't mean the Lord put them there. And just because they are there, doesn't mean that we automatically are bound to do their bidding.

The Lord gave man free will; and with that free will comes actions that go against His will. A lot of our elected politicians have made it clear that they aren't there to do our will; rather they see themselves as placed there to do what they think we need. Key on "they think". The Pharisees thought they were doing what they should, too. Oops.

It isn't just when man's laws violate God's. Moses didn't let the fact that the Pharaoh was in charge stop him from doing what was right. If we just say "Oh, our elected officials must be where they are by God's grace"; we're already done. There's a difference between "doing things right" (meaning, legally or within the law) and "doing the right thing" (what you should do). You can't always do things right when you do the right thing (although you do have to be willing to take responsibility for things you do, even if it's a case of doing the right thing when that thing goes against a law, or regulation). Man is flawed; man's laws can easily be flawed. I do not believe that the Lord is looking for blind obedience to man's laws. The military teaches that just because you are ordered to do something, doesn't mean that if you do that thing and you know it was wrong, you're OK. Add to that the fact all of our own laws that are broken regularly by our elected officials, all the lies we get from them, I personally believe that the Lord does indeed protect those who protect themselves. We have to think for ourselves, following God's law and doing the right thing, when it comes to man's law. Back to free will...

[Trout Hunter]

So this is a topic that I generally try to avoid as I belong to one of the most persecuted Christian Religions in the US. But on this topic my love of country and goes directly with my religious beliefs. From my beliefs we believe that there was a war in heaven about plans, one that was based on agency and the ability for us to choose and the one that didn't win that was championed by Satan was one of removing our ability to choose and being forced to do things. Now mind that is a cliff note version of the cliff notes of our belief. But based on the same beliefs I see that the same principles carry on to this temporal life. We believe that this country was established for freedom of religions and that the principles that the Constitution was based on were inspired so things that take away from those principles come from the opposition. I am a firm believer that when peoples rights , which are not granted by the government but from God, are infringed upon its not just our civic duty but our moral duty to push back and protect peoples ability to choose for themselves. So in a nut shell one of the things that we believe in is being subject to the laws of the land, but at the same time it doesn't mean roll over and fall in line, it means to follow unjust laws but to fight them through the legal means and work at changing them.

[ShelbyJK500]

Yeah, God is on the throne, He is in control. Those is power have been put there by Him. We are to submit to them unless they ask us to do something contrary to His law. This doesn't mean we blindly accept what is happening. We can speak against them, vote against them, run against them and ask others to do the same. We can't shoot them in their sleep.
They can kill my body, that would suck, but not as bad as Him sending me away from His presence.
Christianity pretty much promises suffering, espically for His name. We shouldn't be surprised.

^^This....

I wish I had more time to opine. The "Big Picture" is always under His control. Our personal lives and personal responsibilities lay with our personal relationship with Him. I toil with this daily, even more so with career implications. The scripture does not tell us to submit to authority, specifying that it has to be what we consider "honorable" or "just" authority. Christ spoke of this submission as he was under the rule of Roman gov't and was ultimately crucified under Pilate! That is the ultimate in submission and Hallelujah for us all that Christ did submit. Even in the garden, Christ toiled with His coming crucifixion.

I would only add this for now. Whatever authority you are under, they CANNOT make you do something that is against His will. That ultimate decision is on you. Let's be pragmatic here. While the gov't may create more laws restricting us, burdening us, taxing us...etc. They can't FORCE you to murder someone, they can't FORCE you to have an abortion, they can't FORCE you to enslave another. Those are still decisions made by free men. Freedom is found in choices. Paul found himself many times imprisoned, beaten and stoned for the righteous work of spreading the Kingdom. RARE is the man today who is willing to step out in that much faith. That is where I feel the struggle the most. I think of how scripture shows us that Paul, while imprisoned, would sing songs of joy to our Lord. That is a man who knew the face of Christ. To know such persecution and find joy in the midst. That is the faith of a man we should all strive toward as believers.

John 15:18
18“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.19If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.20Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Persecution is certain as a follower of Christ.

Our founding fathers had something we do not, and will never know. They had a small enough / manageable enough population of citizens with common (for the most part) goals and direction. To be free men. ALL pinnacle societies fall. The US will not be the exception. The arrogance of our society to believe that we can "control" things such as violence is astounding. Since the beginning of time, rulers and societies have risen and fallen with nothing more than a whimper because of Man's sinful nature. We must do whatever we have within our "span of control" to Love others as Christ would so that His light should pierce the darkness in every form. It is a war that will not be won until He comes again.

In Him,

ShelbyJK