List of places no one should be allowed to possess a firearm:

[RMAC757]

I am suddenly more interested in what you do for a living?

Airline Captain

[Zundfolge]

Really....one of the dumbest arguments you've seen on this? Ask a law enforcement officer how much time they spend on weapon retention. All it would take is one careless person carrying and one motivated terrorist, psyco, whatever to seize the moment.

And yet most of the stories we see in the news about handguns left in public bathrooms or rifles left on the roofs of vehicles only to slide into traffic or sub-machineguns stolen out of an unsecured vehicle its not "civilians", its not CCWers, its cops.

We really need to get past this ludicrous notion that all (or even most) members of law enforcement are highly trained "high-speed-low-drag-operators" and all "civilians" are idiots that can barely keep from soiling themselves. Most police officers are social workers that happen to carry guns. That's not to diminish what they do, its just the truth. Most of the police officers I've know over the years were competent at their jobs but were LESS CAPABLE with a firearm than most of the "civilians" I've met through firearms forums and at the range (not that I haven't met cops that are VERY capable, but most of them would be capable with a gun whether they were cops or accountants or bartenders).

Either the masses are all Homer Simpsons that need the heavy but benevolent jack boot of the state on their necks, or they're adults capable of self governance. If you think we're all Homer Simpsons then join the gun banners because not only should Homer not be allowed to CCW even in the middle of the woods with nobody for miles, he shouldn't be allowed to touch any gun (or even a sharp knife).

[dwalker460]

Yea, and dont you guys have a firearm in the cabin with you? But those of us flying in coach cannot?

[dwalker460]

And yet most of the stories we see in the news about handguns left in public bathrooms or rifles left on the roofs of vehicles only to slide into traffic or sub-machineguns stolen out of an unsecured vehicle its not "civilians", its not CCWers, its cops.

We really need to get past this ludicrous notion that all (or even most) members of law enforcement are highly trained "high-speed-low-drag-operators" and all "civilians" are idiots that can barely keep from soiling themselves. Most police officers are social workers that happen to carry guns. That's not to diminish what they do, its just the truth. Most of the police officers I've know over the years were competent at their jobs but were LESS CAPABLE with a firearm than most of the "civilians" I've met through firearms forums and at the range (not that I haven't met cops that are VERY capable, but most of them would be capable with a gun whether they were cops or accountants or bartenders).

Either the masses are all Homer Simpsons that need the heavy but benevolent jack boot of the state on their necks, or they're adults capable of self governance. If you think we're all Homer Simpsons then join the gun banners because not only should Homer not be allowed to CCW even in the middle of the woods with nobody for miles, he shouldn't be allowed to touch any gun (or even a sharp knife).

I completely agree, and can only add that while I know several truly awesome cops, I still would not trust my life to them. Personal responsibility includes my health and safety.

[RMAC757]

Yea, and dont you guys have a firearm in the cabin with you? But those of us flying in coach cannot?

Dude.....then walk or ride a bus. We'll be ok without you.

[asmo]

I am suddenly more interested in what you do for a living?

RMAC757

Drives the Blue French Bus

[dwalker460]

Dude.....then walk or ride a bus. We'll be ok without you.

Man I always like quotes like this! How many airlines have declared bankruptcy? And needed bailouts to continue operating? How much effect will the next "incident" on an aircraft have? And there will be one, because you have the TSA as your only line of defense, which has been proven ineffective, and a cabin full of defenseless passengers. Its what the military calls a "target rich environment" for whackos.

[RMAC757]

And yet most of the stories we see in the news about handguns left in public bathrooms or rifles left on the roofs of vehicles only to slide into traffic or sub-machineguns stolen out of an unsecured vehicle its not "civilians", its not CCWers, its cops.

We really need to get past this ludicrous notion that all (or even most) members of law enforcement are highly trained "high-speed-low-drag-operators" and all "civilians" are idiots that can barely keep from soiling themselves. Most police officers are social workers that happen to carry guns. That's not to diminish what they do, its just the truth. Most of the police officers I've know over the years were competent at their jobs but were LESS CAPABLE with a firearm than most of the "civilians" I've met through firearms forums and at the range (not that I haven't met cops that are VERY capable, but most of them would be capable with a gun whether they were cops or accountants or bartenders).

Either the masses are all Homer Simpsons that need the heavy but benevolent jack boot of the state on their necks, or they're adults capable of self governance. If you think we're all Homer Simpsons then join the gun banners because not only should Homer not be allowed to CCW even in the middle of the woods with nobody for miles, he shouldn't be allowed to touch any gun (or even a sharp knife).

I think your trying to create an argument with me that doesn't exist. To be honest I'm not even sure what point your trying to make with Homer Simpson analogy. Yes, there are many, many well trained civilians and equally as many poorly trained LEO's. Your not seeing the big picture. This is about creating a standard for the lowest common denominator, not persecuting well trained, law abiding citizens. Risking the chance of ND's, poorly secured weapons, argument/fights, whatever aboard the plane with your average Joe who took his CCW on the internet a couple weeks earlier isn't worth it. There are a few of us on this board that see what happens aboard aircraft on daily basis. Do you have any idea what happens when we get stuck for a couple hours off the gate? People loose their shit.....every time.

[RMAC757]

Man I always like quotes like this! How many airlines have declared bankruptcy? And needed bailouts to continue operating? How much effect will the next "incident" on an aircraft have? And there will be one, because you have the TSA as your only line of defense, which has been proven ineffective, and a cabin full of defenseless passengers. Its what the military calls a "target rich environment" for whackos.

Your proving my point every time you type.

[cstone]

Ask a law enforcement officer how much time they spend on weapon retention.

Alot.

The reasoning for weapons retention for uniformed police officers is based on the regular carry of an exposed weapon, which is visible and accessible to anyone behind, to the side, or otherwise in close proximity. When your job has you rolling around on the ground while trying to subdue a subject, or working crowd control at an Occupy style rally, knowing where your weapons are and keeping them away from others is pretty important.

While, in training, we work on regaining weapons if you happen to lose one, the emphasis is obviously on not losing them in the first place.

Ground fighting is also an important part of training in LE. Would anyone like to consider the difficulties of ground fighting in the aisle or between seats on a full airplane? Again, the emphasis is on not going to the deck, and if you go, make sure you are on top. There are a lot of hard, sharp items down there. You can use them if you are in a position of dominance. They can be used against you if you are not.

There are many difficult environments to work in, and anyone who thinks that a gun will get you out of more trouble than it can get you into is just fooling themselves. For a citizen who carries concealed, use of a firearm should really be considered a weapon of last resort. Something along the lines of "If I don't pull this trigger, someone will die or be seriously injured. I have no other choice." If you can't hit your target, you have no business pulling the trigger. That is just as true on the street as it is at 30,000 feet. It is also true for LE as well as anyone else. At least in LE, the deep pockets of liability will probably be the taxpayers. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates would suffer significant financial setbacks for that type of liability. I'm pretty sure that anyone on this board would be financially ruined if they missed in that situation. Not to mention the other legal and psychological difficulties.

Here is a domestic airliner question for those in the profession. If a significant event happens while over the continental United States, what is the longest time likely between advising ATC of the emergency and wheels down? I ask this question in anticipation of the consideration of "backup assistance" not being available at cruise altitude.