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Ed if it makes you feel any better, currently private property owners can't restrict your right really, just not allow you to exercise your right on their premesis. They can't disarm you, and even when they ask you to leave, they aren't disarming you. I see where your heart is at on this.
"There are no finger prints under water."
At the end of the day it comes down to, YOU HAVE A CHOICE RATHER OR NOT TO PATRONIZE A BUSINESS, nobody is forcing you to go to that movie theatre with the "no guns" sign. That's it, nothing more nothing less.
I've picked up a LOT of information in this thread- what a great question! I've been thinking and thinking, but much of what I've come up with has already been discussed. Many points that I hadn't considered were brought forth. Bonus!Originally Posted by cstone
If I follow this logic, the question relies on a juxtaposition of control: control over one's self and their perception of the environment, and control over another's perceived ability.
I've been to concert venues, discoteks, and bars enough to hope and pray that some of the more inebriated/drugged-to-the-gills individuals were not armed. In those cases, reliance of control over myself and my abilities would come into play (and the ideal situation would be of get the hell out of there soonest, if at all possible.) The retention issue covered thoughts that I've flirted with, but never really analyzed. Again, the concert venue springs to mind, because although this is no longer the 90s, mosh pits are alive and well and seem to be everywhere. Avoiding the moshers can be a full-time ordeal.
There is a lot to consider when it comes to remaining in control of yourself and your firearm; I don't live an exciting life, but I may be in situations that are riskier than others when adding a firearm. The concealing factor (and the need for it to remain concealed) can be tough. A beach scenario has different requirements than a daycare with children crawling all over you. Both situations need to be handled differently, but one should still be able to carry (and had better play the "what-if" game seriously, instead of simply relying on the fact that every factor in one's environment is completely under control.)
The other side is the control of others, which is a vicious cycle. Unless you're perfectly trained to recognize danger signs, understand exactly what they are going to do and when they are going to do it, control yourself and your firearm while being assured of not tripping or shaking at a vital moment...well, I can't do that so I'm not going to try to control anyone else. I just try to avoid situations where someone armed would easily lose their control. That way lies accidents.
To answer the question, I would say that ideally, the law has no business dictating to good citizens when and where they should carry. My caveat is that 'good citizens' implies a lick of common sense; that good citizens also know enough about themselves to understand how and when to retain control. Should they be going to a place or event where their control slips (4/20 rally, as a guest on the Jerry Springer show, crashing an ex's wedding, a pub crawl that lasts longer than six hours) I would hope they anticipate accordingly and bring along a DCD (designated carrier/driver) instead.
Unfortunately, people are people and as such, cannot be expected to act for the best interests of themselves (much less for others.) So there's my non-answer.
Oh, and maybe in a hot air balloon ride. Or a zeppelin factory.
"There is nothing in the world so permanent as a temporary emergency." - Robert A Heinlein The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Feedback for TheGrey
I do to, and I appreciate the argument, but at the end of the day, other rights exist as well. There will always be the issue of my right trumps your right, and in some cases it does, but not always. I believe my right to be healthy and smoke free, trumps your right to enjoy that cig, some municipalities/establishments agree, some don't. It is what it is, and that's another topic.
Are you spying on me? I'm enjoying a cigar right now!
"There are no finger prints under water."
The question isn't "am I spying on you", it's do I work for the NSA or Google.......?
Nobody is keeping you from legally protecting yourself. If you don't like somebody's rules about guns and you don't feel that you'll be able to adequately protect yourself if the nee arises, then stay off their property. YOU are making the choice to limit your legal protection by voluntarily entering their property. YOU are choosing to play ball in someone else's court with their rules. Don't like the rules? Go play somewhere else. Don't like the "no guns" sign at the movie theater? Go somewhere else. You ALWAYS have a choice.
You are trying to protect what is yours, and so are they. You may not agree with their methods. There may be piles of statistics and loads of studies that show that their methods aren't going to work. That's irrelevant because it's their property and if you want to be on their property, you need to follow their rules.
Side note - this is not at all related to discrimination for age, race, gender identity issues, etc. Those have been legally determined to be variables that an individual inherently has and cannot control. You can control whether or not you want to bring a gun (or any object) into a store.
ETA: Just a quick note here:
I understand the emotion of Ed's argument, and I think I understand your sentiment here, but by definition, the rights of one individual cannot trump the rights of another. I had a really long-winded explanation here, but it got a little incoherent so I'll just leave it at that. Frederic Bastiat's "The Law" as well as John Locke's "Two Treatises on Government" lay a good foundation here and our constitution was specifically written with Locke's works in mind.
Last edited by HoneyBadger; 09-26-2015 at 09:53.
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"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." -Frederic Bastiat
"I am a conservative. Quite possibly I am on the losing side; often I think so. Yet, out of a curious perversity I had rather lose with Socrates, let us say, than win with Lenin."
― Russell Kirk, Author of The Conservative Mind
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Last edited by Danimal; 02-27-2016 at 10:06.
Lessons cost money. Good ones cost lots. -Tony Beets
Certain areas of certain Military Bases, Posted Private property, Detention Facilities, Courtrooms/Houses, and Mental Institutions.
However all of these (excepting private property) would be required to have an armory just outside where you could check in/checkout your firearms kept under lock and key with armed guards.
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