Welcome to the Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums.
Hey now! I'm wanting to buy any handgun yesterday, not even FTF is good enough. I want us both to wear bags on our heads as we drive by each other in a parking lot and I'll toss the cash through his car window as he throws the gun through mine. I also want us both to have car covers on with the window areas cut out see we can't see each others car make and model.Originally Posted by XJ
Unless I personally know the person, I will always go through a FFL transfer. The reason is that sometimes, law enforcement will go after the weapon seller - remember Columbine? That was a casual sale.
On top of that, I don't want to be held responsible for the purchaser breaking any laws. Denver and Aurora have assault weapon bans that are fruity in their own right. Both cities are nutty enough to go after the seller.
I live in Denver - I don't own any magazines that hold more than 20 rounds because it's a felony if you get caught with one. If I go to Lakewood and buy an AR-15 that comes from the factory with a 30 rd magazine, you can bet law enforcement is going to call the dealer, look at the 4473 and ask the question "You know he lived in Denver County and in the City of Denver, why did you sell him an assault weapon".
As a seller, I don't want to have that discussion. I will gladly pay $25 on the sale for the background check - it's a lot cheaper than an attorney, missed work, losing my right to vote, losing my right to own guns, losing my right to hunt and fish, etc., etc.
Don't get hysterical now
"Unless I personally know the person, I will always go through a FFL transfer. The reason is that sometimes, law enforcement will go after the weapon seller - remember Columbine? That was a casual sale."
As I recall, the issue with the seller in the Columbine case was that they sold to an underage kid. Age is easy enough to check on a Colorado driver's license. Has anyone on this board ever had anyone come after them on a gun they sold?
Wow. This post is full of win. Except not.
Columbine was because of the underage provision.
Aurora has no AWB.
Denver's AWB are all misdemeanors.
Seriously. You're part of the problem.
From Denver's Muni Code...
I deal with municipalities all day long - it's my day job. Sale at retail includes private citizens selling to other private citizens. How do you know that person you don't know doesn't fall into this category....Sec. 38-123. Identification and records concerning sales, etc. (a) Every person who sells, rents or exchanges at retail any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 shall require the vendee, lessee or person with whom such exchange is made to furnish more than one (1) type of identification before such sale, rental or exchange is consummated.
(b) Every person engaged in the sale, rental or exchange at retail of any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 shall keep a record of each such weapon so sold, rented or exchanged at retail and of the vendee or lessee thereof, or person with whom such exchange is made; said record shall at all times be open to inspection by the manager of safety or a duly authorized agent, or by any police officer of the city and shall be made at the time of each such transaction in a book kept for that purpose, and shall include:
(1) The name of the person to whom such weapon is sold or rented, or with whom it is exchanged;
(2) The age of such person;
(3) The occupation of such person;
(4) The residence and, if residing in a city, the street and street number of the residence of such person;
(5) The make, caliber if any, and finish of the weapon so sold, rented or exchanged, and the number or serial number thereof, if any;
(6) The date of the sale, rental or exchange of such weapon;
(7) The name of the employee or other person making such sale, rental or exchange of such weapon; and
(8) A description of each of the types of identification furnished by the vendee, lessee or person with whom such exchange is made, together with any serial numbers or other distinctive features noted in or appearing on each such type of identification so furnished.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person who purchases, rents or exchanges any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 to give a false or fictitious name, or any other false, fraudulent or incorrect information to the person from whom such weapon is purchased, or rented, or with whom such weapon is exchanged at the time such purchase, rental or exchange is made.
(Code 1950, § 845.7)
For a measely $25 - I delegate that responsibility to someone else.Sec. 38-124. Unlawful to sell weapons to intoxicated persons or minors. (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, loan or furnish any instrument or weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 to any person under the influence of alcohol or any narcotic drug, stimulant or depressant or to any person in a condition of agitation and excitability.
(b) Such unlawful sale, loan or furnishing shall be grounds for revocation of any license issued by the city to such person.
(Code 1950, § 845.8; Ord. No. 38-07, § 5, 1-22-07)
I worked in the business 25 years ago and I saw too many instances where people got in trouble - including a father that chewed us out because his son chased down his girlfriend with a Colt Officer's model 3 days after he bought it from us and letting us know that he had been in and out of mental institutions.
Part of the problem? No. Overly cautious? Maybe. But think of it this way - I want 1 less reason for people to come up with to take my guns away and keeping them out of the hands of the bad element will only help.
...but like I always tell folks - you're old enough to make your own decisions. Do whatever you feel is right.
JustEd, the first Denver municipal statute you cite applies to sales "at retail" (i.e., at a storefront). Thus, it isn't relevant to a private sale between two people on this board. Yes, it is illegal to sell to someone who is obviously drunk or high, but I doubt any of the people on this board are stupid enough to do that.
You can also just avoid the Denver statutes by conducting the sale outside of Denver county. That is how ticket brokers avoid Denver's anti-scalping laws on a daily basis.
You are incorrect about the "sales at retail". Trust me - for the last 15 years I've dealt in sales/use/transaction tax law. My current job (for the past 6 years) is to fight with sales tax auditors. A sale at retail includes a private citizen - whether it's a gun sale, a garage sale, or a purchase at King Soopers. There is an occasional sale exemption for sales tax purposes but it is still defined in the code as a "sale at retail". Believe it or not, under the eyes of the law (all Colorado Municipalities and the State) you are legally required to pay use tax on mail order purchases where a vendor does not charge you Colorado tax, or tax for the city you live in. Auditors usually only go after businesses on this issue - but places like New York state go after individuals to the point there are kiosks along the highway for people that go to New Hampshire to buy stuff tax free to give them the opportunity to pay their tax to the great state of New York on the way back on the side of the road. Retail is defined as a sale to a consumer. The buyer is the consumer. Doesn't matter who the seller is.
I know various Denver auditors and I can honestly tell you that they are present at places like Gun Shows, the Merchandise Mart, and the Stock Show - they go after anyone they find making sales at retail - whether it's a private citizen or a business. There's a reason why you are only allowed 2 yard sales per year in Denver.
Did you notice the law is ambiguous enough to state "or to any person in a condition of agitation and excitability". Can you define that in a court of law? I realize tax law and criminal law are different but this is subject to interpretation of a jury. I can honestly state that I have ALWAYS been excited when I've saved up enough money to buy a firearm. Whether it's a new AR or a new shotgun.
...and like I said, I have no problem talking about this on a forum. I don't have the cash sitting around to go through the expense of arguing this in court. I don't necessarily agree with the laws but I do have to follow them once they are passed and sometimes, it's cheaper to just cover your butt and leave a positive paper trail so the issue doesn't come up. Think of it as insurance. What's $25 bucks and a 15 minute wait for a CBI check? It's not like we have a 14 day waiting period rule like other places. We've got a system that works better than others around the country - why not take advantage of it?
Think of it as insurance. What's $25 bucks and a 15 minute wait for a CBI check? It's not like we have a 14 day waiting period rule like other places. We've got a system that works better than others around the country - why not take advantage of it?
the reason being some folks like to own something thats off the radar.
However the seller is within their rights to set the sale terms. whether the product sells or not is another issue.
your gun your rules
I have insurance don't need anymore and have done many transactions with out all the crap you speak of. I also own a business in denver and you do not know what your talking about when it comes to private sales.
That being said you're right we do have a system that works we meet trade money and merchandise done deal. We are taking advantage of what works.
You are free to make up any conditions you wish as to the sale of your goods, However I will never buy anything from you under those conditions.
The most I would ever do is if the buyer looked under age I would ask to see id to make sure they are of age. I would not sell to some idiot with his pants around his ankles with 40 pounds of gold chains around his neck. I would not sell to somebody that was obviously on drugs or appeared to be irrational. ect. ect. ect.
Not real hard if you ask me. Then again common sense seems to be a thing of the past.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." (Edmund Burke 1784)
+1000 well said!there is enough stupid firearm laws as it is, we dont need to make up our own.
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