Originally Posted by
muddywings
Thread revival for public consumption!
So, I just had my trust created. I'll ping the lawyer on monday as to not harass him with questions over the weekend but thought I would ask the internet lawyers in here their opinion on UBGC and trusts.
So I have a stripped lower, not engraved, sitting sadly in my safe. I have a brand new trust formed.
Tell me how I need to correct the order of events:
1. Get gun trust notarized and filed for safe keeping. WIll keep copy in gun safe where future SBR/suppressors will be stored
2. Have lower, engraved,
Muddywings Trust
CO Springs, CO
2. Fill out Form 1, mail with check and wait
(this is where the UBGC and order gets confusing for me)
3. Have all trustees do a BGC at local FFL (yeah, I get to pay for that)
(once they pass the BGC, how do I document that?)
4. Form 1 comes back good to go.
5. Transfer stripped lower from me, to Muddywings Gun Trust
6. Build rest of rifle
Honestly, I don't know about steps 3-5 and what order would be what. And, how I prove all co-trustees are cleared to be on the trust.
Like I said, this is more for public opinion/consumption in light of UBGC laws but I'm curious on how to transfer a stripped lower from me to Muddywing Trust, when do I do BGC on other Trustees, how do I document that they have undergone a BGC.
My head hurts. time for bed!
There are a few things that might make more sense if they are considered separately:
UPDATE: 28JAN15
I have been educated by Prof. Great Kazoo and Prof. SAnd (Thank you, to both of you...I had been misinformed of the NFA terms Manufacturer and Maker by an attorney.)
Please DISREGARD the following quoted section. It contains misleading/incorrect information.
Please see their posts below.
1) ENGRAVING -
Engraving is not ALWAYS required and is really a separate issue from NFA issues.
The only time engraving has to take place is if you are making a new NFA weapon that has no previous serial number and mfg. name etc. already on it.
For example,
- if you go get materials and machine a suppressor from scratch
- If you want to use a CNC machine and make a receiver or lower from a block of metal
- If you already have a 'no serial number' receiver (converted from and 80% lower) and want to make IT an NFA weapon
Thus, when making an SBR from a purchased (already serialized) lower, engraving is not necessary.
In short, the ATF needs the ability to identify and track (ownership and location) of the NFA weapon.
- If it has a serial number/mfg etc. on it, no engraving is needed.
- If it does not, you need to engrave it to put this info on it.
When you send in your Form 1, you will identify the firearm by either (1) or (2) above, depending on the situation.
2) WHEN TO MAKE/CONVERT THE NFA ITEM -The item cannot be made until you have received approval from the ATF (viz. after you get your tax stamp).
In your case, if you have a NON-NFA (Title I) lower, say S/N 123, and you apply to the ATF to 'convert the status' of S/N 123 from a Title I 'regular' receiver, to a Title II 'NFA' SBR,
as soon as your tax stamp is approved and you acquire the parts to make the SBR, that item is now 'registered' and treated as a SBR, regardless of whether you have put it together or not.
Thus you are fine owing the lower, but the short barrel should be bought after the tax stamp is received/approved.
If later you wish to remove the short barrel and sell the receiver as a Title I item ('regular non-NFA receiver'), you can, providing you don't sell it and the barrel together to the same person (i.e.effectively selling an SBR parts 'kit'). ATF, as I recall, recommends you CYA by sending them a letter identifying the receiver and explaining that you took it apart and sold it as a Title I item. (But I could be wrong)
3) WHEN TO TRANSFER TO THE TRUSTBecause of the passing of HB 13-1229, Colorado now requires all parties associated with the Trust that have access to the firearms to undergo a BGC, when a new firearm is added ***
1229 was rushed into law and has vagueness, undefined implications, and unclear language.
It is unclear if this referrers to the Trustees and the Beneficiaries or just the Beneficiaries.
Each time a new person is added to the trust, 1229 implies, but does not explicitly indicate, that this new person must get a BCG if firearms are trust assets.
Each time a new firearm is added to a trust, 1229 indicates that all parties in the trust that have access to the firearm must get a BGC.
*** Note: 1229 seems to apply ony to firearms, and excludes other catagories, such as suppressors, destructive devices, etc. However, I have seen new ATF documentation requiring the person 'picking up the item (suppressor, in particular) on behalf of the trust to be required/requested to get a BGC.
So if you have a 'bunch' of stuff to put in the trust, put it in all at once, and let everyone get 1 BCG each, for all the items in the trust.
Adding one-item-at-a-time, would require 1 BGC for each person, for each item, whenever it is added, and costing much more.
Because the law is not explicit on what to do when adding a new person to an existing trust containing firearms, I have personally talked to FFLs and attorneys that disagree on the BGC.
Some say, no BGC needed if a person is added AFTER the firearm is in the trust
Others say, there is an implied requirement to get a BGC for each added person.
NOTE: Prior to 1229, it was easy. No BGC was needed for anyone at anytime.
4) WHY THE $10 Bill ?One of the requirements to make a trust a 'legal' entity is that it must be funded (viz. have assets).
If the trust every sells off all its assets, it is no longer recognized as a trust and ceases to exist, in a legal sense.
When one applies to the ATF for, say their first suppressor, they cannot list the suppressor as a trust asset until they take posession of the suppressor.
(Sort of a chicken and egg condition)
Thus when one applies for their suppressor tax stamp, and one sends the ATF a copy of their trust, the trust must also show at least one 'ASSET'...or the ATF will reject the application on the basis that trust 'soes not exist', as it has no assets.
The easiest thing to do is take an item of value such as a $1 or $10 bill, put it in an envelope, list it, by serial number, as a trust asset on the schedule of assets...and never get rid of the $1/$10 bill .
Thus the trust will always exist and will be 'funded' when the ATF looks at the schedule of assets.
If I have misrepresented/misstated anything above, let me know, and I will fix it...
I have not intended to disrespect anyone else's opinion, nor claim that mine is 'Gospel'. I have merely tried to explain it, as I know it, in a piece-by-piece fashion.
I hope this helps you, even if just a little bit ...
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