View Full Version : BGC while at gun shows
BlasterBob
08-21-2013, 13:39
Never did hear what the charges are for two individuals wanting to make the required BGC to sell/trade with each other while at one of the local gun shows.. Not asking for what the dealers charge for a BGC to cover one of the firearms being sold/transferred off their table - only what would be charged for two non-FFL guys to get the check to comply with the new law while at the show. In the past, Tanner and the Sertoma organizers used to have someone dedicated to take care of these and the charge was exactly $10. What'll be charged now since there is no more work involved to accomplish this. Called the Sertoma folks and they had no idea what the current charge is. Anyone know or even care?[Help]
mtnrider
08-21-2013, 14:49
I thought it was written into the law they are not suppossed to charge more then $10 (+ the $10 to CBI)?
BlasterBob
08-21-2013, 14:59
I thought it was written into the law they are not suppossed to charge more then $10 (+ the $10 to CBI)?
So you believe a total of $20. You are one of the only ones to furnish an opinion on the fee. I had asked this a couple times and no one has ever responded. Now, I hope your correct with that $20 charge. I have not attended a gun show in many months so one of these days, I'll have to "test the waters" on the BGC when it applies to two individuals wanting to make such a transfer while attending a gun show. Should be interesting to say the least.
I would think $20 per party, for a total of $40, since they are essentially doing 2 BGC's.
Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
BlasterBob
08-21-2013, 16:43
I would think $20 per party, for a total of $40, since they are essentially doing 2 BGC's.
Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
Why two (2) BGC's? Are you saying the seller of the firearm is required to have a BGC also? Never heard of this with the exception of the buyer NOT passing his BGC so the firearm would then have to be returned to the seller after his BGC is passed. What a mess our "know it all" legislators forced upon us. [pileoshit]
Circuits
08-21-2013, 16:52
It's $20 per required background check - $10 to CBI, $10 to the FFL. So a trade requires two BGCs and would run $40 total. A simple private party sale would be $20.
This can be a real pain, if party A sells to party B and party B doesn't pass the BGC the party A has to do a BGC to get their firearm back. If party A doesn't pass then the FFL doing the paperwork has to keep the firearm and treat it as a consignment for party A. There are other stipulations (as least for me) if the firearm becomes a consignment.
Circuits
08-21-2013, 19:02
This can be a real pain, if party A sells to party B and party B doesn't pass the BGC the party A has to do a BGC to get their firearm back. If party A doesn't pass then the FFL doing the paperwork has to keep the firearm and treat it as a consignment for party A. There are other stipulations (as least for me) if the firearm becomes a consignment.
No. If party A doesn't leave the firearm in the the FFL's custody, and party B doesn't pass the BGC, then party A and their firearm can go off on their merry way.
However, yes - if party A leaves the firearm in the FFL's custody, and party B doesn't pass the BGC, then party A would indeed have to do a BGC to get their firearm back, etc.
I guess we can agree to disagree
BlasterBob
08-21-2013, 19:21
This can be a real pain, if party A sells to party B and party B doesn't pass the BGC the party A has to do a BGC to get their firearm back. If party A doesn't pass then the FFL doing the paperwork has to keep the firearm and treat it as a consignment for party A. There are other stipulations (as least for me) if the firearm becomes a consignment.
From what I read and understand, if the potential buyer does not pass the BGC and the firearm has NOT been relinquished to the FFL, then the FFL can hand the firearm back to the seller without having to execute another BGC. This is, I believe, covered in the latest BATF guide covering such scenarios. If the firearm IS relinquished to the FFL, he enters it into his book and then if potential buyer fails the BGC, then a BGC must be secured for the seller for him to get his own firearm returned on the spot providing he does NOT want the FFL to keep it for a consignment sale.
I believe this crap is well covered in the latest BATF instructions for FFL's. If an FFL does not want to handle it this way, it is strictly his prerogative to handle it the way he chooses and is comfortable with. This is just my humble opinion and I am sure as hell not an attorney or know much about the new requirements -- just stating the way I interpret them.
or your can call 303.239.4283 and get the same response from CBI [facepalm](party A would need a BGC to get firearm back)
Circuits
08-21-2013, 20:06
*sigh*
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf_proc._2013-1_-_private_firearms_transfers_through_ffls.pdf
BlasterBob
08-21-2013, 21:12
*sigh*
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf_proc._2013-1_-_private_firearms_transfers_through_ffls.pdf
Circuits, apparently some either have NOT read the second page of the above addressed site which contains procedures for denial etc. or they just refuse to accept what the BATF rule means.
"SIGH".
A phone call to the BATF doesn't mean much unless they back up their statement in writing - which they will probably not do.
Why two (2) BGC's? Are you saying the seller of the firearm is required to have a BGC also? Never heard of this with the exception of the buyer NOT passing his BGC so the firearm would then have to be returned to the seller after his BGC is passed. What a mess our "know it all" legislators forced upon us. [pileoshit]
You are correct. I got a bit ahead of myself.
Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
Circuits, apparently some either have NOT read the second page of the above addressed site which contains procedures for denial etc. or they just refuse to accept what the BATF rule means.
"SIGH".
A phone call to the BATF doesn't mean much unless they back up their statement in writing - which they will probably not do.
I believe State (CBI) trumps the ATF when it come to transfers. Just as the Feds say 30 round mags are okay, the State (CO) says they are not, hence, the state has trumped the feds. I could be wrong (as usual) but the last time I talked with ATF they said dealers must comply with all State laws. [beatdeadhorse]
Circuits
08-22-2013, 00:08
I believe State (CBI) trumps the ATF when it come to transfers. Just as the Feds say 30 round mags are okay, the State (CO) says they are not, hence, the state has trumped the feds. I could be wrong (as usual) but the last time I talked with ATF they said dealers must comply with all State laws. [beatdeadhorse]
So let me hypothetical you here:
Parties A and B show up to do a private party transfer. Party A does NOT relinquish custody of his firearm to you. Party B fails BGC. You do not have Party A's firearm. Watcha gonna do?
So let me hypothetical you here:
Parties A and B show up to do a private party transfer. Party A does NOT relinquish custody of his firearm to you. Party B fails BGC. You do not have Party A's firearm. Watcha gonna do?
Wouldn't you have entered party A's firearm into your books prior to even being able to do the background check? Haven't we been over this once or twice on here already?
BlasterBob
08-22-2013, 06:53
Wouldn't you have entered party A's firearm into your books prior to even being able to do the background check? Haven't we been over this once or twice on here already?
According to the BATF instrutctions, the FFL does NOT have to enter the firearm in hls book UNLESS the seller has RELINQUISHED ownership to the FFL. Yes, I believe then it does have to go through the book. I doubt if there is any CO State law requiring the opposite of what the BATF allows in these BGC cases. If there is, let's see it. This has been gone over numerous time but seems very few will agree with what the BATF allows.
Circuits
08-22-2013, 09:56
Wouldn't you have entered party A's firearm into your books prior to even being able to do the background check? Haven't we been over this once or twice on here already?
The ATF procedure I linked to very clearly states it doesn't go on your A&D Book until either a) the firearm is left in your custody, or b) the transaction has been approved to proceed and the firearm is being given to the transferee. All the FFL needs to know to submit the private party transfer request is the transferee's information, and whether it is a long gun, handgun or other.
BlasterBob
08-22-2013, 18:07
Circuits is RIGHT.. And after the BGC is completed and the OK is received, the buyer or seller can change their mind about making a transfer and just "scrub" the deal and the would be seller can apparently walk off with his firearm UNLESS ownership has been relinquished and firearm has been entered in the book. If the buyer/seller refuse to follow through with the transfer, they would still have to pay for all of charges associated the complete BGC. Now, this opinion will surely draw some fire here.
Federal attorneys from the FBI and from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives(BATF) are in agreement that Colorado FFLS who contact the NICS through the CBI to conduct abackground check to facilitate an otherwise “private” transaction at a gun show
are required by federal law to:
1. take the firearm into their inventory (i.e. physical possession of the firearm) and enter theinformation into their acquisition and disposition books.
2. treat the transaction as they would a consignment.
3. have the buyer complete a 4473 form.
4. identify the buyer with appropriate identification (requires physical presence of the buyer).
5. if a NICS check results in a denial, the FFL must receive an approval on the private seller prior to
returning the firearm.
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22Dealer+Le tter+November+2005.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251804851209&ssbinary=true (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22Dealer+Le tter+November+2005.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251804851209&ssbinary=true)
[beatdeadhorse]
On a positive note, when I spoke to CBI today the agent in charge (I believe) directed me to the above sites. I stated that ATF&E put out a new "directive" per Barry's direction early this year. He was unaware of that directive and ask me to send him a copy and he said that if in fact ATF has changed something that CBI would review their CURRENT policy and make appropriate changes if necessary. I sent him the link that was provided by others (circuits) in this thread.
Thanks Circuits for the link!
[Beer]
This is not only a relief to hear, but also a complete 180 from what has been discussed here for the last several months.
it would make my life a lot easier
I just wish that those elected officials would get a clue and understand what "...shall not be infringed upon" means.[soap]
Circuits
08-22-2013, 21:59
Federal attorneys from the FBI and from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives(BATF) are in agreement that Colorado FFLS who contact the NICS through the CBI to conduct abackground check to facilitate an otherwise “private” transaction at a gun show
are required by federal law to:
1. take the firearm into their inventory (i.e. physical possession of the firearm) and enter theinformation into their acquisition and disposition books.
2. treat the transaction as they would a consignment.
3. have the buyer complete a 4473 form.
4. identify the buyer with appropriate identification (requires physical presence of the buyer).
5. if a NICS check results in a denial, the FFL must receive an approval on the private seller prior to
returning the firearm.
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22Dealer+Le tter+November+2005.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251804851209&ssbinary=true (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22Dealer+Le tter+November+2005.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251804851209&ssbinary=true)
[beatdeadhorse]
On a positive note, when I spoke to CBI today the agent in charge (I believe) directed me to the above sites. I stated that ATF&E put out a new "directive" per Barry's direction early this year. He was unaware of that directive and ask me to send him a copy and he said that if in fact ATF has changed something that CBI would review their CURRENT policy and make appropriate changes if necessary. I sent him the link that was provided by others (circuits) in this thread.
Well, we can only hope that since federal law does not, in fact, require what the CBI people seemed to think it did that CBI will change their tune. I knew there was a reason I wasn't bothering to do any private party transactions (other than the teensy fee allowed).
BlasterBob
08-23-2013, 07:27
This is not only a relief to hear, but also a complete 180 from what has been discussed here for the last several months.
After reading the new CO BGC law back in June, I maintained that the transfer is not 100% necessary to just get a BGC. Main thing is that the seller NOT relinquish the firearm to the FFL involved unless he actually intends to have it transferred and is positive the BGC will be approved for the buyer. Now, the question remains unanswered, what charges will the FFL present to the guys asking for a BGC if no actual transfer takes place (as I had discussed above)????????????????????
How will the FFL determine, before starting his BGC, if the guys bringing in the gun actually will or even intend to go through with the transfer after the BGC is received and approved??? We know that there will be the standard CBI $10 fee but surely the FFL will be expected to tack on some "administrative" fee for his time of screwing around with this ordeal if the transfer never transpires. When the buyer and seller leave the FFL dealership location with that firearm still in hand (since it was not actually relinquished to the FFL), it would appear that they could then make the physical transfer themselves with no paperwork on their personal transfer involved. If I remember correctly, I believe I read that the FFL will be obligated to give each, the buyer and seller, a document indicating that a BGC had been made and approved. Anyone else see this in the new CO law???
Yeah, I know that I am probably [beatdeadhorse]but I have yet to see anyone discussing this feature of this new CO [pileoshit]law.......
Well, we can only hope that since federal law does not, in fact, require what the CBI people seemed to think it did that CBI will change their tune. I knew there was a reason I wasn't bothering to do any private party transactions (other than the teensy fee allowed).
[beatdeadhorse]
I will do a BGC for the $10/$10, HOWEVER, the process that I required is to be in compliance with CBI. I require I take physical possession of the firearm before I call CBI for a BGC for party B and if B fails then Party A pays a $10/$10 for a BGC, if party A fails then I maintain possession as a consignment firearm with a monthly fee associated up to the cost of the firearm then the firearm becomes my property. Probably better if folks don't ask me to do the BGC for them until CBI changes there process.
BlasterBob
08-24-2013, 07:46
[beatdeadhorse]
I will do a BGC for the $10/$10, HOWEVER, the process that I required is to be in compliance with CBI. I require I take physical possession of the firearm before I call CBI for a BGC for party B and if B fails then Party A pays a $10/$10 for a BGC, if party A fails then I maintain possession as a consignment firearm with a monthly fee associated up to the cost of the firearm then the firearm becomes my property. Probably better if folks don't ask me to do the BGC for them until CBI changes there process.
Randy, I see your point and everyone should be able to appreciate that you and your fellow FFL's are certainly "in the driver seat" on whichever method you/they choose to use. It's going to be a giant pain in the ass for all involved - the FFL dealers, the buyers and the sellers on these BGC's and transfers UNTIL the mess is all resolved.
Yeah, I know --[beatdeadhorse]
BlasterBob
08-28-2013, 07:08
I really wish that I would have started this thread in the General Discussion section as it would probably have been seen by many many more fellow members as well as could have possibly received a LOT more comments and perhaps even a least a few "wise cracks". Oh well.[BooHoo]
I really wish that I would have started this thread in the General Discussion section as it would probably have been seen by many many more fellow members as well as could have possibly received a LOT more comments and perhaps even a least a few "wise cracks". Oh well.[BooHoo]
True, I thought the same thing after that post in the legal section too.
BlasterBob
08-28-2013, 13:35
True, I thought the same thing after that post in the legal section too.
I have absolutely no idea if it is possible but would sure be nice if one of the Mods could change the title of this thread (that I started) and in a new replacement title, put more on the emphasis on BGC and eliminate the GUN SHOW in the title and then move it (some how) into the General Discussion forum. Maybe it's not even possible though. We would certainly gather a lot more post/opinions there in GD. Typically, this is just an old fart wondering about stuff that's perhaps not even possible......[blaster]
BlasterBob
08-29-2013, 08:04
'H E L L O" ----- any Mods on deck this early in the morning??
Good News! I spoke with the person that I sent the link to, provided by Circuits, at CBI this morning. A new CBI ruling is in the works and can be released as soon as next week! Thanks Circuits for the link!
Circuits
08-29-2013, 22:26
Good News! I spoke with the person that I sent the link to, provided by Circuits, at CBI this morning. A new CBI ruling is in the works and can be released as soon as next week! Thanks Circuits for the link!
No problem. I'm amazed, but pleased, CBI is being this responsive.
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