View Full Version : Armslist - and people trying to sidestep BGC
So I've got a gun on armslist , and besides the usual wasting of my time , and people offering half what I'm asking .....
I've had two people now try and buy without background and transfer. WTF ? Is this a setup ?
The first dude said he wanted to buy it , then all of a sudden he "needed it that night for a security job he started that night ". So I kindly told him that wasn't going to happen and thanked him for his time. Then last night another told me that he "had his CCW and we should just meet in a restaurant parking lot ".
I replied that we need to meet at a FFL to transfer/ background properly yada yada yada. Did I miss something ? CCW holders still have to pay for BGC right ? I'm prob gonna pull my ad just cuz I'm tired of people wasting my time but these two have me creeped out.
SouthPaw
09-16-2015, 07:42
That is armslist for you. Wish it was like the good old days where a hand shake and a CODL was all we needed.
You did the right thing. Either could have been a sting.
The first one would have creeped me out too, but the CCW holder might just be a case of a poorly informed, "old-timer". Before July 1, 2013 private party sales without a BGC were not unheard of. In some close circles, they were common.... It was the responsibility of the seller to ensure the buyer was eligible. If the buyer was not eligible, it could easily constitute a felony by the seller and all the legal consequences that come with a felony. The easiest, most common way to ensure your buyer was eligible was to verify they had a CCW and were a resident of your state... Some would be fine just seeing a CODL to ensure it wasn't across state lines. So while ignorance of the law is no defense, I don't necessarily hold it against offer number 2 in the same regard as the immature, ill prepared buyer number 1.
SouthPaw
09-16-2015, 08:00
CCW holders always held priority in my books prior to July 1, 2013.
thvigil11
09-16-2015, 08:09
Been a while since we seen an armlist rant on the forum. I give you 5/10. Needed way more profanity and capitalization.
Seriously though, my last couple of sales ended up in trades down here, they went pretty well. I stopped doing any transactions in Albuquerque though. That city sucks and been stood up there too many times. (or guys show up 100 short on what was agreed upon.)
Been a while since we seen an armlist rant on the forum. I give you 5/10. Needed way more profanity and capitalization
Lol. Yea I'm not too upset about it. Just kinda creepy to me. The second guy isn't out of the picture yet , we'll see if he replies. Wouldnt surprise me if it was a "operation" of sorts to catch sellers trying to skip it as well.
Zundfolge
09-16-2015, 08:44
The fear that this is a "setup" is foolishness. Most of the Sheriffs and Police Chiefs in the state are on record saying they will not enforce this law so I doubt they're putting together task forces to do catch violators of this law ... and F-Troop doesn't enforce local laws, only Federal ones.
AT WORST you might have some anti-gun "journalists" trying to trick people into doing off paper transactions for a story, but that's about it.
At any rate, if you're not comfortable buying or selling without going through the BGC then don't.
I would never use this forum to suggest anyone do anything illegal ... but there is a good argument that bypassing the stupid new BGC law is a form of civil disobedience ... but hey, we're plenty comfortable here in the back of the bus, no need to rock the boat or anything. Know your place, prole ... and all that.
Before July 1, 2013 private party sales without a BGC were not unheard of. In some close circles, they were common....
Common? You mean to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of times a day? I bought and sold more guns than I remember between private parties without a BGC for decades. It was commonplace. It was done on this very forum dozens of times a day. I hate how we're already so used to this stupid new law that we're pretending that guns weren't bought and sold freely by citizens commonly or that its been the way it is now for generations or some other such foolishness. I understand that we should be obeying the law here, but for Christ sake do we also have to pretend that we like it? Do we have to pretend it's a good law? It's no wonder we're losing America to the Statists ... we freely give and roll over the first chance we get ... sheesh.
It was the responsibility of the seller to ensure the buyer was eligible. If the buyer was not eligible, it could easily constitute a felony by the seller and all the legal consequences that come with a felony.
Bollocks. It was never "the responsibility" of a seller to verify if the buyer was eligible in a private transaction. Unless it could be proved that you "knowingly" sold to a prohibited person you were in no legal jeopardy in the least. The responsibility was ALWAYS on the buyer.
mackbamf
09-16-2015, 08:58
Seems like the farther we get away from 7/1/13 the more comfortable people are getting about ignoring it. At first people were just calling them "mag kits" and now a lot of times ads will just openly state how many mags come with it. I also see that on Armslist there seems to be more of an openness to meet at a mutually agreed spot which opens the door for an individual transfer. Not to say they haven't happened but I have yet to read or hear about some type of sting operation, but as always seems to be the case if people get too relaxed someone will eventually take notice and it will come around and bite them...
I had the same thing happen to me on armslist. A guy told me he would buy my shotgun cash and carry. The same guy emailed me 3 or 4 different times in a couple of weeks saying he wanted to buy my gun. I finally emailed him back and told him to stop wasting my time. Never heard from him again. There are a lot of flakes on armslist.
I was in the opposite position in my experience with Armslist. First time trying buy a firearm on there and the seller flaked out after the 3rd attempt to meet at the FFL of my choice and time. Said I have cash so it's now or never but I knew it was a scam. I just wanted to see how far this dickhead wanted to go.
Martinjmpr
09-16-2015, 09:24
Zundfolge is right, prior to 7/1/13 there was no obligation on the seller's part to make sure the buyer was qualified to own a firearm. It is illegal to sell a firearm to someone you know is unqualified, but beyond that there is no duty to make any sort of inquiry about the buyer.
Since 7/1/13, IMO even that requirement is now gone because from a legal standpoint, you aren't transferring the gun, the dealer is so any burden is on the dealer.*
My worry actually would be less about a 'sting' and more about why someone is trying to buy a gun "off the books." If some grisly murder takes place and the gun can be traced back to you, then it wouldn't be an issue of the Sheriff enforcing the law, it would be the DA or prosecutor, and you can pretty much figure that if someone used the gun you sold illegally and then committed a crime with it, you're probably going to get prosecuted for that.
* EDITED TO ADD: It would be interesting to see how Federal law (which prohibits transferring a firearm to a person you know is not permitted to possess one) would be applied in a case where a seller knew a buyer was not permitted to possess a firearm but the buyer passed a BGC (it does happen that unqualified people can pass BGCs.) Could they go after the seller? I'm not sure they could.
For example: Let's say you run into your high school buddy you haven't seen in decades. Buddy tells you he's been "out of the loop" because he did 5 years in prison for assault. Then the topic drifts to guns, he sees one of yours he likes and then offers to buy it from you. Being a careful person, you say "OK but I want to do the transaction through a dealer." You go to a dealer, he fills out the 4473 and lies about having been convicted of a felony. The dealer runs him through the computers and he comes up clean and so the gun is transferred to him.
Even if they could prove that you knew or should have known the buyer was not qualified to own a firearm, I think you could argue that (a) you transferred the gun to the dealer and the dealer then transferred it to the buyer, which means that any culpability is on the dealer and also that (b) you could assume the buyer was qualified to possess a firearm because the buyer passed a BGC.
HoneyBadger
09-16-2015, 09:25
That is armslist for you. Wish it was like the good old days where a hand shake and a CODL was all we needed.
That changed?
DADT.
Zungfolge nailed it.
ETA:
My worry actually would be less about a 'sting' and more about why someone is trying to buy a gun "off the books." If some grisly murder takes place and the gun can be traced back to you, then it wouldn't be an issue of the Sheriff enforcing the law, it would be the DA or prosecutor, and you can pretty much figure that if someone used the gun you sold illegally and then committed a crime with it, you're probably going to get prosecuted for that.
Is there a Colorado law about mandatory reporting of lost/stolen firearms? If not, then there is no legal trail back to you. What if you legally transferred it to the individual without a background check before the law went into effect? What if you left it sitting on a tree stump when you went shooting in the forest and when you returned, it was gone? I wouldn't be worried about anything happening with a gun that you sold. A tool is a tool. For employing lethal force, a gun is in most cases more effective than a shovel, but each is only as effective as the operator in whose hands it resides.
milwaukeeshaker
09-16-2015, 09:54
A lot of "sheeple" out there, gun owners included, just read through some posts in this forum and it is evident that all you stated is true. How sad.
The fear that this is a "setup" is foolishness. Most of the Sheriffs and Police Chiefs in the state are on record saying they will not enforce this law so I doubt they're putting together task forces to do catch violators of this law ... and F-Troop doesn't enforce local laws, only Federal ones.
AT WORST you might have some anti-gun "journalists" trying to trick people into doing off paper transactions for a story, but that's about it.
At any rate, if you're not comfortable buying or selling without going through the BGC then don't.
I would never use this forum to suggest anyone do anything illegal ... but there is a good argument that bypassing the stupid new BGC law is a form of civil disobedience ... but hey, we're plenty comfortable here in the back of the bus, no need to rock the boat or anything. Know your place, prole ... and all that.
Common? You mean to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of times a day? I bought and sold more guns than I remember between private parties without a BGC for decades. It was commonplace. It was done on this very forum dozens of times a day. I hate how we're already so used to this stupid new law that we're pretending that guns weren't bought and sold freely by citizens commonly or that its been the way it is now for generations or some other such foolishness. I understand that we should be obeying the law here, but for Christ sake do we also have to pretend that we like it? Do we have to pretend it's a good law? It's no wonder we're losing America to the Statists ... we freely give and roll over the first chance we get ... sheesh.
Bollocks. It was never "the responsibility" of a seller to verify if the buyer was eligible in a private transaction. Unless it could be proved that you "knowingly" sold to a prohibited person you were in no legal jeopardy in the least. The responsibility was ALWAYS on the buyer.
sellersm
09-16-2015, 10:04
Laws are just opinions of men enforced by thugs. With the stroke of a pen, a whole class of people are then considered part of the criminal population.
CIPCIP
Zundfolge is right, prior to 7/1/13 there was no obligation on the seller's part to make sure the buyer was qualified to own a firearm. It is illegal to sell a firearm to someone you know is unqualified, but beyond that there is no duty to make any sort of inquiry about the buyer.
Well that's nice to know. Guess I was just being overly cautious by preferring to sell to CO CCW holders, friends, family, and members here who were previously vetted by other members...
Well that's nice to know. Guess I was just being overly cautious by preferring to sell to CO CCW holders, friends, family, and members here who were previously vetted by other members...
You weren't overly cautious, you were smart to sell that way.
You weren't overly cautious, you were smart to sell that way.
I still think so too, and I rebuke any association with "sheeple"... I in no way like the BS law, but I'm an honest man who has enough sense to not flaunt lawlessness or support thereof, online...
Ive heard of stings being set up for buying mags these days. Sitting outside shops and checking people coming out. Even heard of shops getting visits and checking their mag kits. No charges, as far as I know, but some people do have lots of time to waste, apparently.
Zundfolge
09-16-2015, 10:27
Ive heard of stings being set up for buying mags these days. Sitting outside shops and checking people coming out. Even heard of shops getting visits and checking their mag kits. No charges, as far as I know, but some people do have lots of time to waste, apparently.
Sources please.
Sources please.
Just what I heard from a credible source that deals with such things (as in they had a visit themselves).
Just what I heard from a credible source that deals with such things (as in they had a visit themselves).
Credible to you, not to me. This secret squirrel BS is stupid, why even bring it up if you're not going to say who it is.
Zundfolge
09-16-2015, 11:07
Just what I heard from a credible source that deals with such things (as in they had a visit themselves).
So is that dealers that have been questioned about their "mag kits" or "stings being set up for buying mags"?
Talking to a dealer, while waiting for my transfer, he said they got a visit from law enforcement to check on their kits. They didn't get in any trouble but it was made apparent that they better start following the law so no if/ands/but's, they are all going out as kits. He said "we've even heard of them approaching people in plain clothes as they leave shops and checking their bags for non-kit mags." I assume they're starting with the shops versus individuals.
I leave the name out of it as that's up to them if they want to chime in on it. It's a shop I go to often and know so it's not just "some dealer that was open for a transfer". :shrugs: I was just as surprised when they told me as they were when they got inspected.
Sorry for being blunt/rude Dave_L. Thank you for the additional info, could you tell us what county this shop is in?
It's ok. I know a lot of false information gets spread by "well I heard....". This certainly wasn't the case on this one.
I believe it's Arapahoe county.
It's ok. I know a lot of false information gets spread by "well I heard....". This certainly wasn't the case on this one.
I believe it's Arapahoe county.
Thank you. Arapahoe - I am not surprised, Denver or Boulder either. If you had said El Paso I would have been surprised.
An interesting topic.
Understand that what goes on in someone else's house or business is not within the control of the staff here. We will control what is discussed and done here on this board. This is our house and our community. We know that members of the media, law enforcement, and people from other states and countries have read posts on this board and we are also aware that those people will continue to read posts here on this board.
We will abide by all the laws as we understand them and we will help members conduct discussions on this board in accordance with those laws. For those members who are not willing to live with that guidance, please do not feel that you have to continue associating with us here.
As for the current laws, each of us has our opinions and many of those opinions are fairly obvious through reading past comments.
Be respectful. Be lawful. Be safe.
Talking to a dealer, while waiting for my transfer, he said they got a visit from law enforcement to check on their kits. They didn't get in any trouble but it was made apparent that they better start following the law so no if/ands/but's, they are all going out as kits. He said "we've even heard of them approaching people in plain clothes as they leave shops and checking their bags for non-kit mags." I assume they're starting with the shops versus individuals.
I leave the name out of it as that's up to them if they want to chime in on it. It's a shop I go to often and know so it's not just "some dealer that was open for a transfer". :shrugs: I was just as surprised when they told me as they were when they got inspected.
[LOL]
"Can I search your shopping bag?"
Not only no, but fuck no.
[hahhah-no]
spqrzilla
09-16-2015, 14:00
I haven't heard of any stings whether LEO or private. However, Bloomberg has a history of doing such things and for that reason, one must consider the possibility that in some transaction that one might end up on the five o'clock news. And district attorneys are political animals and one can never predict when they will decide its to their political advantage to become aggressive in enforcement regardless of what they did yesterday.
And so when giving others advice, it would be irresponsible to say that violating the law is "safe".
[LOL]
"Can I search your shopping bag?"
Not only no, but fuck no.
[hahhah-no]
Actually, the polite answer is; "Certainly. After you have properly identified yourself as a commissioned law enforcement official, and you have produced the properly executed search warrant issued by a federal, state, or local magistrate or judge."
Without both, the answer is: "Nice try skippy. Have a nice day. Buh bye."
Last time I checked, no one has trained a K9 to sniff for standard capacity magazines. [LOL]
BlasterBob
09-16-2015, 14:18
I am now "almost" a resident of Illinois. I researching how a person to person transaction can be made by an Illinois resident who, of course has a valid FOID, I found that the seller must first contact the Illinois State Police who will check to see if the prospective buyer has a current, legitimate FOID card. FOID = Firearm Owner ID card. Then if given the OK by the ISP, the seller must hold a long gun for 24 hours and if a handgun it must be held for 72 hours. If that is observed, then the seller is absolved of wrong doing or responsibility if the buyer uses that firearm in an illegal action.
SideShow Bob
09-16-2015, 14:23
Actually, the polite answer is; "Certainly. After you have properly identified yourself as a commissioned law enforcement official, and you have produced the properly executed search warrant issued by a federal, state, or local magistrate or judge."
Without both, the answer is: "Nice try skippy. Have a nice day. Buh bye."
Last time I checked, no one has trained a K9 to sniff for standard capacity magazines. [LOL]
Will have to ask for brown paper bags from now on. No more translucent plastic bags.
With all of the law abiding residents of Illinois lining up to be issued a Firearm Owner ID card, the Chicago police must have a really easy job solving the 20 or 30 murders committed every week. [Sarcasm2]
HoneyBadger
09-16-2015, 14:26
With all of the law abiding residents of Illinois lining up to be issued a Firearm Owner ID card, the Chicago police must have a really easy job solving the 20 or 30 murders committed every week. [Sarcasm2]
20-30 a week? That's generous. Sometimes They get that many in a weekend.
BlasterBob
09-16-2015, 14:29
Yep Chuck. The murder rate has dropped drastically with the FOID system in place especially with Rham being in charge of the CPD. [Sarcasm2]
At least a FOID can now be obtained via the Internet.
Bailey Guns
09-16-2015, 15:22
Talking to a dealer, while waiting for my transfer, he said they got a visit from law enforcement to check on their kits. They didn't get in any trouble but it was made apparent that they better start following the law so no if/ands/but's, they are all going out as kits. He said "we've even heard of them approaching people in plain clothes as they leave shops and checking their bags for non-kit mags." I assume they're starting with the shops versus individuals.
I leave the name out of it as that's up to them if they want to chime in on it. It's a shop I go to often and know so it's not just "some dealer that was open for a transfer". :shrugs: I was just as surprised when they told me as they were when they got inspected.
BS flag on that. Not that you weren't told that, but that it's most likely total and utter BS. Cops aren't gonna check bags of people leaving a gun store. Cops aren't gonna "check mag kits" inside the store, either...especially if they were in violation when cops were specifically looking for that sort of thing. They don't do "stings" to give warnings. Somebody at that gun store is full of crap.
Great-Kazoo
09-16-2015, 15:23
Sources please.
Credible to you, not to me. This secret squirrel BS is stupid, why even bring it up if you're not going to say who it is.
IF it's one of the places i'm thinking of, It did happen. People can call B.S. and DEMAND TO KNOW THE WHO, WHAT, WHEN , WHERE, WHY.
You're not getting it and i respect the privacy of anyone, be it an individual or business.
Martinjmpr
09-16-2015, 15:34
I'll reiterate that I don't think many LE agencies would waste time with a "sting", but that doing an illegal transfer can still come back to bite you in the a$$ if that gun is later used in a crime. With regards to a magazine it's much less likely only because magazines are generally not serial numbered and therefore it's much more difficult to trace them to a specific individual.
I assume we have LEO's on this page who can confirm but my assumption is that after a crime involving a firearm takes place, part of the routine investigation will be to contact the ATF with the firearm's SN and then they will be able to at least trace the origins of the firearm to the first legal sale by a dealer to a private individual. From that point they would, I assume, try to trace the ownership of the gun to the final user. If, during the course of that investigation, the police determine that the final user of the gun got it through an illegal transaction and they can determine who it was that sold it to the final user, that person can face prosecution. If you recall, that's how they got the guy who sold some of Dylan and Klebold's guns to them before Columbine.
I'm curious how an illegal transfer can come back and bite you without proof of when, time and date, the transfer took place?
68Charger
09-16-2015, 15:48
Wasn't there some news crew that was doing a "sting" related to this? It would at least be embarrassing to be on the 6 o'clock news.
Between the hassle, and the regret I've concluded that the only right thing is to never sell a firearm. Ever.
Just curious, does the law define it as a sale or transfer? And is barter a sale or trade?
As far as cheching bags, can someone pull out their cellphone and record the occurance please? It would make for an interesting video.
Wo sind Ihre Magpul?
Great-Kazoo
09-16-2015, 16:03
I'm curious how an illegal transfer can come back and bite you without proof of when, time and date, the transfer took place?
It's called: YOU GIVE UP WHO YOU GOT IT FROM, OR YOUR KIDS ARE GOING WITH THAT LADY FROM PROTECTIVE SERVICES, SITTING OVER THERE>>
e-mails, text, cell calls are ALL DOCUMENTED and eligible as part of the investigation & evidence
However it's all based on how bad LE is to get someone. Including the political climate , election cycle and ambitiousness of said people involved.
Great-Kazoo
09-16-2015, 16:07
Just curious, does the law define it as a sale or transfer? And is barter a sale or trade?
As far as cheching bags, can someone pull out their cellphone and record the occurance please? It would make for an interesting video.
Wo sind Ihre Magpul? WTF??
IIRC, any firearm being handed off to someone else for more than a 72 hour period is considered a sale / transfer.
Barter : to trade by exchanging one commodity for another Is there a value placed on one or the other item?? Either way the firearm is no longer in possession of person A.
thvigil11
09-16-2015, 16:14
Will have to ask for brown paper bags from now on. No more translucent plastic bags.
You mean you don't bring your own reusable bag? For shame, for shame.
[Flower]
HoneyBadger
09-16-2015, 17:14
I'll reiterate that I don't think many LE agencies would waste time with a "sting", but that doing an illegal transfer can still come back to bite you in the a$$ if that gun is later used in a crime. With regards to a magazine it's much less likely only because magazines are generally not serial numbered and therefore it's much more difficult to trace them to a specific individual.
I assume we have LEO's on this page who can confirm but my assumption is that after a crime involving a firearm takes place, part of the routine investigation will be to contact the ATF with the firearm's SN and then they will be able to at least trace the origins of the firearm to the first legal sale by a dealer to a private individual. From that point they would, I assume, try to trace the ownership of the gun to the final user. If, during the course of that investigation, the police determine that the final user of the gun got it through an illegal transaction and they can determine who it was that sold it to the final user, that person can face prosecution. If you recall, that's how they got the guy who sold some of Dylan and Klebold's guns to them before Columbine.
I'm curious how an illegal transfer can come back and bite you without proof of when, time and date, the transfer took place?
S (https://www.ar-15.co/threads/151302-Armslist-and-people-trying-to-sidestep-BGC?p=1912568&viewfull=1#post1912568)ee post #12
ETA:
It's called: YOU GIVE UP WHO YOU GOT IT FROM, OR YOUR KIDS ARE GOING WITH THAT LADY FROM PROTECTIVE SERVICES, SITTING OVER THERE>>
e-mails, text, cell calls are ALL DOCUMENTED and eligible as part of the investigation & evidence
However it's all based on how bad LE is to get someone. Including the political climate , election cycle and ambitiousness of said people involved.
Valid point, so use your brain. If the government is going to decree that you are a criminal, you'd better start thinking like one right? No paper trail! [Sofa]
Legal disclaimer: I'm not advocating the breaking of any law under any jurisdiction for any reason. You can do that on your own.
You mean you don't bring your own reusable bag? For shame, for shame.
[Flower]
Thanks Vigil. I honestly laughed audibly at this.
via tapatalk
Aloha_Shooter
09-16-2015, 18:20
use your brain. If the government is going to decree that you are a criminal, you'd better start thinking like one right? No paper trail! [Sofa]
Legal disclaimer: I'm not advocating the breaking of any law under any jurisdiction for any reason. You can do that on your own.
Plenty of very nice firearms over 50 years old that don't require a paper trail if the seller is amenable. OTOH, if I was ever to want to sell any firearms, particularly C&Rs, I'd want to be sure the recipient deserved to have them.
ZERO THEORY
09-16-2015, 18:46
Armslist is always a shit show. Flakes, people that blatantly try to trade useless B.S. to you despite you saying you're not interested in the ad, lowballers, and guys who think a DPMS with a BSA optic is a $1500 "cuztoms AR".
Met up with some fat guy in a TapouT shirt one time who basically just wanted something cool to take camping, but couldn't tell his ass from his elbow. After he handed me the cash, he took his new XD45 Tactical and proceeded to "inspect" the barrel from the business end. It's rarely much better than that.
Wisdom
Yes.
LongArmoftheLaw
09-16-2015, 20:12
Been having the same issue with a gun I am currently trying to sell on Armslist. These Einstein's want to bypass all the legal processes while showing up $75-$100 short and then proceed to bitch/moan/menstruate all over the place about what a piece of effluvia you are.
electronman1729
09-16-2015, 20:52
Been having the same issue with a gun I am currently trying to sell on Armslist. These Einstein's want to bypass all the legal processes while showing up $75-$100 short and then proceed to bitch/moan/menstruate all over the place about what a piece of effluvia you are.
I have a posting right now and that is the exact same thing I have been getting. Klutz wants to buy my firearm less the cost of the FFL or full cost in a parking lot. I told him today to just piss off.
electronman1729
09-16-2015, 20:54
What happened to the "Armslist" thread that we used to have?
LongArmoftheLaw
09-16-2015, 21:07
I have a posting right now and that is the exact same thing I have been getting. Klutz wants to buy my firearm less the cost of the FFL or full cost in a parking lot. I told him today to just piss off.
It's ridiculous...Seems like a good portion of the people that you actually to meet for the transaction are people that you get a shitty feeling about anyway. Walked away from a sale last week after 2minutes of talking to the guy. The dude was way too shady...
theGinsue
09-16-2015, 21:20
Sorry to bring this back up hours later, but this needs to be clear to everyone.
An interesting topic.
Understand that what goes on in someone else's house or business is not within the control of the staff here. We will control what is discussed and done here on this board. This is our house and our community. We know that members of the media, law enforcement, and people from other states and countries have read posts on this board and we are also aware that those people will continue to read posts here on this board.
We will abide by all the laws as we understand them and we will help members conduct discussions on this board in accordance with those laws. For those members who are not willing to live with that guidance, please do not feel that you have to continue associating with us here.
As for the current laws, each of us has our opinions and many of those opinions are fairly obvious through reading past comments.
Be respectful. Be lawful. Be safe.
Perfectly well stated. Cstone speaks for the site.
I don't know any member of this site who believes the BGC law was a good thing to implement. But, accepting that it is the current law and we must abide by that law until such time as the law is revoked is a far cry from rolling over. Disobeying the law is a criminal act, even if some would call it "civil disobedience". Such an act of "civil disobedience" could lose you your 2A rights for life. Discussion of partaking in this "civil disobedience" on this site could bring undesired negative attention to this site and to the gun culture in general. As such, and because it's the right thing to do, this site will not tolerate any discussions which advocate the violation of any laws. If this is what you want, then like cstone said, "please do not feel that you have to continue associating with us here." We may even help you to dissolve that association.
I hope that was clear enough for everyone.
ZERO THEORY
09-16-2015, 21:38
Walked away from a sale last week after 2minutes of talking to the guy. The dude was way too shady...
What do these goobers say/do when you shut down the sale?
LongArmoftheLaw
09-16-2015, 23:40
What do these goobers say/do when you shut down the sale?
This guy started yelling and cursing up a storm then started following me back to my pickup. Didn't bother sticking around to listen to it. Got back in my pickup and hauled ass before he got any closer.
I've done 4 deals on armslist, 1 prior to the law change. That guy was a little different, more socially awkward is probably the best way to describe him-volunteered his ccw permit for me to examine. The only hiccup was one buyer who wanted to pay by check-we met another day at a shop when he was able to bring cash.
Prior to the law there were more than a few (not through al) I walked away from over nothing more than "weird vibes" for lack of a better phrase.
I think most here have a much more effective "weirdo detector" than any background check. That being said, we're stuck with it until/unless the law changes... :(
milwaukeeshaker
09-17-2015, 09:59
No way, a lot of posters here say that can't be done. No one records those serial numbers to be used later.
I'll reiterate that I don't think many LE agencies would waste time with a "sting", but that doing an illegal transfer can still come back to bite you in the a$$ if that gun is later used in a crime. With regards to a magazine it's much less likely only because magazines are generally not serial numbered and therefore it's much more difficult to trace them to a specific individual.
I assume we have LEO's on this page who can confirm but my assumption is that after a crime involving a firearm takes place, part of the routine investigation will be to contact the ATF with the firearm's SN and then they will be able to at least trace the origins of the firearm to the first legal sale by a dealer to a private individual. From that point they would, I assume, try to trace the ownership of the gun to the final user. If, during the course of that investigation, the police determine that the final user of the gun got it through an illegal transaction and they can determine who it was that sold it to the final user, that person can face prosecution. If you recall, that's how they got the guy who sold some of Dylan and Klebold's guns to them before Columbine.
Great-Kazoo
09-17-2015, 10:49
No way, a lot of posters here say that can't be done. No one records those serial numbers to be used later.
[facepalm]
Sorry to bring this back up hours later, but this needs to be clear to everyone.
Perfectly well stated. Cstone speaks for the site.
I don't know any member of this site who believes the BGC law was a good thing to implement. But, accepting that it is the current law and we must abide by that law until such time as the law is revoked is a far cry from rolling over. Disobeying the law is a criminal act, even if some would call it "civil disobedience". Such an act of "civil disobedience" could lose you your 2A rights for life. Discussion of partaking in this "civil disobedience" on this site could bring undesired negative attention to this site and to the gun culture in general. As such, and because it's the right thing to do, this site will not tolerate any discussions which advocate the violation of any laws. If this is what you want, then like cstone said, "please do not feel that you have to continue associating with us here." We may even help you to dissolve that association.
I hope that was clear enough for everyone.
I have a question..... If I would like to purchase a rifle/pistol from someone in Colorado, but I am a WYOMING resident, do I need to complete a BGC as well? Or because I am non-resident, they can sell to me with just a bill of sale/ proof of sale? Thanks
I have a question..... If I would like to purchase a rifle/pistol from someone in Colorado, but I am a WYOMING resident, do I need to complete a BGC as well? Or because I am non-resident, they can sell to me with just a bill of sale/ proof of sale? Thanks
Interstate has always, and will require it to go to an FFL in your state of residence.
Great-Kazoo
09-17-2015, 10:55
Interstate has always, and will require it to go to an FFL in your state of residence.
HOWEVER he can buy a long gun in CO through a FFL. i don't think they charge any extra for registration [facepalm]
Interstate has always, and will require it to go to an FFL in your state of residence.
HOWEVER he can buy a long gun in CO through a FFL. i don't think they charge any extra for registration [facepalm]
so basically I will have to just do a transfer in colorado with no BGC? Or have them ship to an FFL in WY?
Martinjmpr
09-17-2015, 11:01
so basically I will have to just do a transfer in colorado with no BGC? Or have them ship to an FFL in WY?
The issue is where does the transaction take place? If the transaction takes place in CO, then CO law applies (yes, you will need a BGC.) Also I believe you cannot buy a handgun through an FFL outside your state of residence, which means that the dealer SHOULD refuse to do the transfer if you show him a WY DL for a handgun purchase.
If the transaction takes place in WY, then WY law applies.
SO, your next question will almost certainly be: "If the CO owner drives from CO to WY to meet me to do a FTF transfer in WY can we do it without a BGC?"
Since WY does not require BGC for FTF sales, you might think this is legal. However, just know that the CO seller is violating Federal law (18 U.S.C section 922 (a)(5) ) by transporting a firearm to another state for the purpose of transferring it. Can you be charged criminally? It's possible if a prosecutor wants to say that the two of you conspired to violate both federal law and to evade state law then you could both be charged with that. So the safe way to do it is for the CO owner to deliver the firearm to a WY FFL who will then transfer it to the WY buyer on a 4473.
The issue is where does the transaction take place? If the transaction takes place in CO, then CO law applies (yes, you will need a BGC.) Also I believe you cannot buy a handgun through an FFL outside your state of residence, which means that the dealer SHOULD refuse to do the transfer if you show him a WY DL for a handgun purchase.
If the transaction takes place in WY, then WY law applies.
SO, your next question will almost certainly be: "If the CO owner drives from CO to WY to meet me to do a FTF transfer in WY can we do it without a BGC?"
Since WY does not require BGC for FTF sales, you might think this is legal. However, just know that the CO seller is violating Federal law (18 U.S.C section 922 (a)(5) ) by transporting a firearm to another state for the purpose of transferring it. Can you be charged criminally? It's possible if a prosecutor wants to say that the two of you conspired to violate both federal law and to evade state law then you could both be charged with that. So the safe way to do it is for the CO owner to deliver the firearm to a WY FFL who will then transfer it to the WY buyer on a 4473.
Thank you!
HOWEVER he can buy a long gun in CO through a FFL. i don't think they charge any extra for registration [facepalm]
You'r right, I should have specified handgun.
I have sold, at the gun show, a long gun to out of state resident. Of course, an FFL was involved.
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