Guns in Israel

[Doc45]

Here's an interesting article following up on the uptick in attacks in Israel and how it really is in Israel to get a permit for and carry a firearm. I'm not in agreement with everything in here (is anyone ever? lol) but it does shed some light on the process:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israeli-gun-owners-rush-to-shooting-ranges-amid-wave-of-attacks/2015/10/12/f8460e78-70d3-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html

[speedysst]

So Americans with guns are "cowboys" but Israelis with guns are just protecting themselves against attacks. Yeah.

[roberth]

So Americans with guns are "cowboys" but Israelis with guns are just protecting themselves against attacks. Yeah. Leftist drivel.


Israeli applicants must submit paperwork, military records and medical reports, and must justify their need to carry a weapon. Approval takes 30 days. Aresident of Tel Aviv will not be given a permit, though residents of a Jewish settlement in the West Bank will be. So will retired army officers, former police officers, firefighters, ambulance technicians, special forces vets, licensed public transportation drivers and residents of militarily strategic buffer zones, as well as those who live or work in Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem — including the Old City — and the West Bank.

[Irving]

See guys? Even in Israel only police, military, and bus drivers need guns.

[brutal]

Moshe Fidler, a retired undercover police detective, lives in Jerusalem and always carries his sidearm, a Glock 21-C, which he called the “limousine of handguns.” He also did not think that widespread permitting of guns was the solution, even though in civilian life he fired the weapon to scare off Palestinian rock throwers.

[LOL]

[Skip]

Moshe Fidler, a retired undercover police detective, lives in Jerusalem and always carries his sidearm, a Glock 21-C, which he called the “limousine of handguns.” He also did not think that widespread permitting of guns was the solution, even though in civilian life he fired the weapon to scare off Palestinian rock throwers.

[LOL]

Well, it is long like a limousine.

When will people learn if they don't give up their guns in the first place they never have to face these kinds of situations...

[cstone]

Israel is not the USA. I am sure this comes as a surprise to some, but I am unaware of any law or constitutional right in Israel that protects free Israeli citizen's rights to possess firearms.

The Washington Post is once again using the crisis du jour in Jerusalem to point out the sad plight of the Palestinians; all while making a veiled argument for "common sense" gun legislation in the USA. USA compared to Israel is like apples to orangutans.

On another note, for those who are interested in my take on Jerusalem: Luke 19:41-44 NIV

Be safe.

[ray1970]

What cstone said is spot on.

In the U.S. owning firearms is a right of the people specifically spelled out in our Constitution.

In Israel owning a firearm isn't a right. It's a privilege.

I did read that Israel is loosening it's restrictions on gun ownership to get more guns on the streets to help deal with the recent Palestinian attacks against its citizens.

Wonder if our government would be more likely to support our 2nd ammendment rights if people were targeting and killing our citizens at random on the streets here?

[Dave_L]

if people were targeting and killing our citizens at random on the streets here?

Um...that happens every day.

[Doc45]

My super lib sister and her husband visited Israel and Jordan earlier this year. On a beach in Tel Aviv she got into a conversation with some young women about safety due to the fact that most of the adults served/serve in the IDF. The girls (all soldiers) told her they'd feel safer if they had their guns with them but since there wasn't anywhere to secure them at the beach they didn't bring them. My sister was jolted back to reality but hasn't changed her views sadly.

I've got lots of good stories about my travels in Israel that I may share down the road a bit.

[02ducky]

I stopped reading it after the cowboy refernace.

[jerrymrc]

The good old days........[Flower]

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac44/jerrymrc/toys/dscf7714iy7qc7vq7.jpg (http://s884.photobucket.com/user/jerrymrc/media/toys/dscf7714iy7qc7vq7.jpg.html)

[DAL357]

Female tats. Yuck! Nice rifle, though.

[Lucky]

61675
I just got back from Israel yesterday. I've been there for 6 weeks living in Jerusalem, for work, about 10 minutes from Old City and 5 minutes from one of the many Palestinian borders around Jerusalem. I took this picture at the Jerusalem Biblical Zoo 4 weeks ago on the last day of Sukkot, which happened to be a day or two before shit really started getting crazy.

I believe in stuff, but am not religious. I have strong political opinions, but do not claim a party. I've worked for Jewish families. I grew up with a few Arab-American families, along with tons of other types of people. Whatever comments came/come from this can not possibly offend me. I'm just writing because I was literally just there, and I can say there are guns everywhere, and guns are about the only thing in that country that do not cross the religious lines and rules.

I took this picture because I thought, "Oh cool, open carry at the zoo." But if I took out my phone to snap a photo of every gun I saw I would first of all look like an asshole tourist, but also wouldn't have had time for anything else- like walking or driving.

In Jerusalem when you go to the mall (the "mall" is one of my least favorite places, but there it IS your option for groceries, electronics, clothing, etc all in one place) your car is stopped and peered into by and Israeli guard who may or may not check the interior and your trunk. You then park and walk to entrance where you hand over your phone/purse/all items to armed security guard and proceed through metal detector... in pursuit of groceries. Checkpoints along Palestinian border require you to slow vehicle so that armed guards can racially profile you real quick, no big deal. Everyone in the country must carry proper documents at all times to prove who you are and your right (?) to be there. At least a dozen times I literally heard the phrase "papers, please" as I watched military/security personnel approach civilians for proof.

I don't know and didn't look up the (locals) procedure to carry, I just know there was a LOT of open carry- handguns and AR's mostly, both military-issue and custom... at the zoo, the park, on the bus, in the mall, on the outdoor malls, in line for ice cream, at the postal/Western Union office. And I'm told there was tons of concealment, too- that even though the Observant/Orthodox Jews are not required to serve the 2 year military term that the rest of Israeli's are, the men are very likely to be carrying personal protection.

What was very interesting to me, that I did not like, was the lax way the AR's were carried. Like the gal pictured above, most of the AR's I saw in public were slung behind the body, with magazine in. I feel like that's maybe not the best idea when riding an escalator, or nonchalantly standing in line for ice cream, or smoking a cigarette and chatting to a buddy. Anyone with any experience with an AR (which would be EVERYone in Israel) could put a hand or two on that thing and boom! I did not mind at all that folks were toting around their AR's- but when they had their cell phone in one hand and cigarette in the other, or had both hands digging in their wallets, never making eye contact with those around/behind them, no control over their loaded weapon (chambered round or not) that really creates a potentially unsafe scene, you know? Maybe it was more annoying because I was told on several occasions that a lot of the Palestinian attacks on Israeli soldiers were 18 & 19 year old kids who were stabbing with screwdrivers in an attempt to get the soldiers' guns, to do some real damage. So people walking around with AR's yet lacking any situational awareness are "all around me" did get a little annoying.

The situation in Israel really is worse than usual, even though it's just now reaching the BBC & CNN four weeks later. I read a lot of articles while there, one in which the mayor of Jerusalem invited those with permits to start carrying daily and asked those who don't have a permit to go get one and get a gun. He said he carries his Glock every day and said that an armed community is a safer community. I had to leave Jerusalem twice due to strikes and protests and announcements on the loudspeakers warning everyone to "stay inside". It was weird. And it really, really, really sucked being unarmed.

Point is: if I lived there I'd carry everywhere I could. The articles, stories, and reporters that compare the States to Israel as far as gun control are ridiculous. The Holy Land is crazy and everyone who believes that land belongs to them has lived in a world of fear, deep seated hate, resentment, and constant retaliation for thousands of years. I really hate to say it because overall I am a very positive person, but honestly that hate will continue. Everyone already has guns, and just like in the States if someone wants a gun they will find one. They may or may not be trained on safety and proper use, they may or may not have good intentions. They may or may not have had a background check or a recent psych evaluation. And if they can't find a gun yet intend to cause harm, they will find a knife, screwdriver, or rocks... just like anyone else on the planet would.

[kidicarus13]

Good observations and thanks for relaying the information to us.

[Irving]

How are people carrying in the mall if you have to turn out your pockets and walk through metal detectors? Is that just to get through the detector, then they give you your gun back?

[jhood001]

Wonder if our government would be more likely to support our 2nd ammendment rights if people were targeting and killing our citizens at random on the streets here?

Probably not, but the threat from our southern border is real. Mexican citizenry are not our enemy, but their country's organized crime and corrupt government definitely are.

If any of you have time, read the works of Charles Bowden (who recently passed). Our fight for our southern border may not be religious in nature, but it will be just as fierce as any religious conflict in the near future.

Revenues for drug trafficking in Mexico has exceeded revenues for oil over the last 3 years. Mexico's entire economy is dependent on trafficking now. And those running the show will press and fight to maintain that.

I believe that we'll be facing the same security issues as Israel in the coming years. I hope that isn't the case, but border states (New Mexico for example) are quickly rising in their murder rate and violent crime per capita.

I wouldn't say that it is exactly fair to compare our border issues to Israel's, but I believe it is going to get bad before it gets good. Money is every bit as powerful of a god as Allah.

[davsel]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZO8YQBXdEZY/VidEJcG4Y2I/AAAAAAAA3L8/yr2jtwNoNT4/s400/CRje6OUWIAAYWR2.jpg

[ClangClang]

How are people carrying in the mall if you have to turn out your pockets and walk through metal detectors? Is that just to get through the detector, then they give you your gun back?

There are number of different "permits" you can have that allow you to bring your weapon through security. Anyone on active military duty can be armed (assuming they're a normally armed combat soldier. No office workers, etc). Off duty cops of course. And civilians with a CCW permit as well. At any of these security checkpoints (bus stations, malls, fancy restaurants, public buildings, etc) if you have a weapons permit you're generally exempt from being searched and you can go right through.

[ClangClang]

What was very interesting to me, that I did not like, was the lax way the AR's were carried.

This is a bit of a cultural thing. Military commanders are constantly berating recruits to have better control of their weapons in public. But it's "cool" to have to your rifle slung over your shoulder. Also, keep in mind, that anyone carrying around an M4 (or Tavor these days) is literally married to that gun for 2-3 years. It goes with you everywhere. On base, off base, to the bathroom, out to dinner, etc. So by the time you're 4 weeks out of Basic, it's become a burden. I'm not excusing the behavior, just explaining it.

Also, most important... walking around the streets of Jerusalem, you can safely be in condition white and blissfully unaware. There is very little street crime in Israel. There are some rough neighborhoods here and there, but otherwise it's quite safe. The Israeli mentality for carrying is to defend against terrorism, not a simple mugging. Using your issued weapon to defend against a mugging could actually land you in deep shite.

So for all those reasons, many soldiers tend to just sling their guns over their back and forget about it. It's more common in the more "pedestrian" units. As soon as you start moving up to anything approaching SOF (Paratroopers, Seals, lots of other units with Hebrew names) you'll see model weapon control everywhere they go. The girl pictured above is probably a base guard who's never been in actual combat.

[SamuraiCO]

There are number of different "permits" you can have that allow you to bring your weapon through security. Anyone on active military duty can be armed (assuming they're a normally armed combat soldier. No office workers, etc). Off duty cops of course. And civilians with a CCW permit as well. At any of these security checkpoints (bus stations, malls, fancy restaurants, public buildings, etc) if you have a weapons permit you're generally exempt from being searched and you can go right through.

That is the rub I have when sensible gun laws are ever talked about such as background checks and training for a CCW. The powers on the left never say because these new laws are so good we can now remove restrictions on magazine capacity, types of, guns allowed or where we can carry. Hence their real agenda is revealed.

[Irving]

Thanks Clang.

[Lucky]

There are number of different "permits" you can have that allow you to bring your weapon through security. Anyone on active military duty can be armed (assuming they're a normally armed combat soldier. No office workers, etc). Off duty cops of course. And civilians with a CCW permit as well. At any of these security checkpoints (bus stations, malls, fancy restaurants, public buildings, etc) if you have a weapons permit you're generally exempt from being searched and you can go right through.

Exactly. Based on my appearance, I was directed through the detector and searched every time. But if you have the right uniform and/or papers you're waved through to a different side of the entrance. Not complaining, that's just how it works.

[Lucky]

...snip... I'm not excusing the behavior, just explaining it.

Also, most important... walking around the streets of Jerusalem, you can safely be in condition white and blissfully unaware. There is very little street crime in Israel. There are some rough neighborhoods here and there, but otherwise it's quite safe. The Israeli mentality for carrying is to defend against terrorism, not a simple mugging. Using your issued weapon to defend against a mugging could actually land you in deep shite.

So for all those reasons, many soldiers tend to just sling their guns over their back and forget about it. It's more common in the more "pedestrian" units. As soon as you start moving up to anything approaching SOF (Paratroopers, Seals, lots of other units with Hebrew names) you'll see model weapon control everywhere they go. The girl pictured above is probably a base guard who's never been in actual combat.

Yes, I noticed the same things. It was commonplace for locals to keep doors to homes/ gates to yard unlocked, etc, including cars (even though most cars require that key code before ignition). I enjoyed a lot of long conversations with Israeli's- Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians alike- who were pretty open in discussing what life is really like, for them, there. They all agreed that street crime is extremely low and most attributed it to high numbers of individuals carrying personal protection, even if their intention of carrying is to be ready for a terrorist attack. One really needs to be on a mission to attack someone carrying, and each person who attempted while I was there was immediately stopped, for good.

Overall, the AR carry style was very lax in public, but at the actual border crossings each soldier was at the ready with one hand near trigger and weapon in front of the body- like the picture you posted. One man I was in a room with for about an hour was very disciplined, with rifle across his front and a hand on it at all times, very aware of his surroundings. He had just graduated to Seal within a day or two of when I met him.

[Lucky]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZO8YQBXdEZY/VidEJcG4Y2I/AAAAAAAA3L8/yr2jtwNoNT4/s400/CRje6OUWIAAYWR2.jpg

Yes! For two full days the government shut down the high schools. Not out of fear- they do not respond in fear- but simply to move all security from the high schools to the elementary and middle so those kids could go about their business as usual.

[WETWRKS]

Here is one of the major differences in their society and ours...theirs teaches a respect for firearms. Our society doesn't teach a respect for anything or anyone.

[clodhopper]

Our society doesn't teach a respect for anything or anyone.

However, ours teaches how to use claiming disrespect to your advantage.

[zimagold]

I would definitely consider my time in Israel a formative life experience.

[ClangClang]

I would definitely consider my time in Israel a formative life experience. Sorry for quality, wasn't really trying to take pics of the police/military.


2010
Typical Police/Military presence at entrances to the old city in Jerusalem
61687 61693




Just FYI - The first two pictures you have are of Border Police ("Mishmar Ha-Gvul" in Hebrew). They are under the command of the Israeli National Police, so not soldiers or military. Being in the Border Police certainly counts towards your mandatory conscription though. Much like in the USA, recruits are allowed to make requests of which branch they join.

[Lucky]

61697

This is Old City, Christian Quarter, the day after the reportedly unarmed 13 year old was shot. Full on strike, about 95% of the shops were closed for business (all four quarters). This was a weekday at about noon- an entirely different scene than last time I'd seen it in 2008. One could hear a pin drop, it was eerie.

[zimagold]

Just FYI - The first two pictures you have are of Border Police ("Mishmar Ha-Gvul" in Hebrew). They are under the command of the Israeli National Police, so not soldiers or military. Being in the Border Police certainly counts towards your mandatory conscription though. Much like in the USA, recruits are allowed to make requests of which branch they join.

Corrected. Sorry about that, was just trying to be generic.

[ClangClang]

No problem! I just know that military guys here can get pretty sensitive about things like that (Ever call a marine a soldier?) so I was just trying to set the record straight and get a little more knowledge about our allied armed forces out.

[Gman]

This thread has been very educational. Thank you gentlemen.