4473 revised

[izzy]

Didn't see this anywhere sorry if it's a repost.

http://orchidadvisors.com/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-form-4473-revised/?utm_campaign=Industry+Alerts&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=37660754&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9aI2FjityVgUS4XcDEvoxR6G8UguI-zGPOduOMd7ITBVqLzwt85dSwevRKX6z74MrJXvXBlrRnhgt2hf G9x7q7efGFoA&_hsmi=37660754

4473 has been revised. Most interesting to me is the bit about states that have medical or recreational marijuana. Wondering what the statement says.




Question 11.e: Added a warning statement regarding marijuana that has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where the transferee/buyer resides.

[Zundfolge]

There was a link to a PDF of the new form in that article: http://orchidadvisors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/F_4473-5300_9-Pt_1-Rev_08-23-2016_00C_Final_OMB_Approved.pdf


e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or
decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

[izzy]

Well, that answers my question then. Thank you sir. I've seen a bunch of talk about that here, that's the only change that stood out to me.

[DFBrews]

So with that little addition is now says possession makes you a prohibited person.

let's say a member of your house hold uses it for legitimate pain relief so it is in the house where you the firearm owner could pass any drug test out there. But by blanket are possessing are you now illegal?

[Big E3]

I have a related question; on the 4473 form, it says 10.a. and 10.b. must both be answered. If you check that you are Hispanic or Latino in 10a, what box do you check in 10b? I never noticed that before, may have always been there, just looks confusing. Is this the "George Zimmerman" box where you check that you are a white Hispanic?

[Zundfolge]

I'm actually more annoyed that the form 4473 exists in the first place, not so much the specifics that are on it.

[Big E3]

White/Caucasian. Hispanics are Caucasian believe it or not. Race vs Ethnicity.

So back when white Europeans discovered central America, they realized that the native people living there were just distant relatives? Every time I think I understand American history it seems to change.

[MarkCO]

So with that little addition is now says possession makes you a prohibited person.

There is no change at all. It has always been against Federal law. They just added a warning to make sure such a person really knows when they sign the form that they have in fact broken Federal law.

[Gman]

White/Caucasian. Hispanics are Caucasian believe it or not. Race vs Ethnicity.

Some Hispanics identify as Black, such as some Puerto Ricans for example. Some parts of Spain have people that are very white and have red hair.

It's a very diverse world out there...unless you happen to be white.

[DFBrews]

There is no change at all. It has always been against Federal law. They just added a warning to make sure such a person really knows when they sign the form that they have in fact broken Federal law.


See foxtrots point and yours as well mark
I know it is Definitely still illegal on the fed level and have way to much invested in many aspects of my life to use anything.
but always took it that with the unlawful user/addicted wording a roommate smoking a bowl wouldn't bring the the black heli's calling

I know it is a grey area and a "enthusiastic" DA could tack in some kind of charge to that effect. But have never gotten a straight answer from a lawyer.

[Irving]

This is the Federal government's way of saying, "If you want a gun today, check "NO."'

[Gman]

This is the Federal government's way of saying, "If you want a gun today, check "NO."'
...as long as you're not plagued with having a conscience and don't mind lying while you're certifying that you're telling the truth.

[brutal]

Wait until they tighten up NICS and the data set includes state's med marijuana card issuance...

Or perhaps records of retail sales? BTW, not advocating it's use or skirting the law, but anyone using a CC to buy legal weed is a real dope.

Or does it already?

[Irving]

...as long as you're not plagued with having a conscience and don't mind lying while you're certifying that you're telling the truth.

There are some people that believe the government knows best, but that is very far from having a conscience.

If the 4473 was revised yet again to check a box stating that one does not possess any restricted magazines, I'd check that box, while laughing, every time. Then I'd collect my gun and not give it a second thought for the rest of my life.

[kidicarus13]

There are some people that believe the government knows best, but that is very far from having a conscience.

If the 4473 was revised yet again to check a box stating that one does not possess any restricted magazines, I'd check that box, while laughing, every time. Then I'd collect my gun and not give it a second thought for the rest of my life.

Amen. If you have to think about how to answer maybe you don't need another pistol or restricted magazines.

[DOC]

So back when white Europeans discovered central America, they realized that the native people living there were just distant relatives? Every time I think I understand American history it seems to change.Thats the ministry of love for you. Always changing history. You should see their holiday parties! They are off the hook then later they aren't.

[Martinjmpr]

I know it is a grey area and a "enthusiastic" DA could tack in some kind of charge to that effect. But have never gotten a straight answer from a lawyer.

Lawyers aren't allowed to give "straight answers." The answer is always "It depends..." :D

WRT MJ and guns, before Heller and McDonald it would have been an easy call, since the 2nd Amendment had not been declared to be a "fundamental right" nor had it been "incorporated" to the states.

But now that the 2nd amendment has been determined to convey an individual right to own firearms and incorporated to the states, there is a real question of whether merely using MJ in accordance with state law can deprive you of a fundamental right.

I would argue that it can't, any more than using MJ would deprive you of your right to speak freely or be free from unreasonable search and seizure, but of course that's just my opinion.

There is also the Federalism question: Who has the authority to determine what substances are legal within the boundaries of a sovereign state, the state or the Federal government? Because under our Constitutional system, the Federal government is supposed to be a government of limited and specified jurisdiction while the states have general jurisdiction.

Up to now, the states have generally acquiesced to the Federal government with regard to the classification of drugs (mostly because by allowing the Feds to regulate drugs, enforcement is done with a LOT of Federal $$) but if a state wanted to assert that the right to regulate drugs within the boundaries of a state was the right of that state and not of the Federal government, I think they could make a strong argument for it.

Of course, the Feds could prevent all of this if they would reschedule MJ from Schedule I to something else or by removing MJ from the schedule entirely. With California joining the states that have legalized recreational weed it seems to me that the Federal government is going to have to do something sooner or later.

[BladesNBarrels]

........ anyone using a CC to buy legal weed is a real dope.



Pun intended?
Not sure a Credit Card can be used to buy any type of weed, legal or not. It is a cash business.

[Irving]

Credit cards can absolutely be used to buy weed. There are noy supposed to be ATM machines in potshops either, but some of them have an ATM anyway.

[brutal]

Pun intended?
Not sure a Credit Card can be used to buy any type of weed, legal or not. It is a cash business.

Pun very much intended.

[brutal]

This reply is formulated strictly within the bounds of reality.

There is no state law permitting the use of marijuana. There is only an affirmative defense. Further, state laws cannot legalize federal crimes. A critical distinction ignored by many in this state. Also, we could theoretically argue that the second amendment provides the right to own SAM misses to the stoned, alcoholic or mentally deficient until we're blue in the face because the 2A says so. The fact of the matter is, the country you live in regulates it, and if they so desire, when you break regulation, they will prosecute you. Prosecution on minor issues is less likely but can always happen. Sure, you could spend 1.5 million and ten years of your life (much of it jailed) to petition ceratori to the US Supreme Court and argue federalism in any case, maybe you're the 1% of cases that get heard in doing so. And, almost a complete guarantee, they will rule against you anyway, as the country (even if conservative) is not in the habit of taking power away from itself, regardless of what any amendment says. And sure, a state could make an argument for anything, but the gov't is going to say "no" and "no money", so they are not going to do it.

Speaking of affirmative defense, would be very interested in your sage wisdom regarding the HPA.

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/159470-Hearing-Protection-Act

[izzy]

I've read though that Texas is trying to pass a law where they'll refuse to enforce federal firearms laws. Is this just as absurd as states basically not enforcing federal drug laws then?

https://www.uslawshield.com/texas-bills-would-prohibit-enforcement-of-federal-gun-laws/

[Zundfolge]

I've read though that Texas is trying to pass a law where they'll refuse to enforce federal firearms laws. Is this just as absurd as states basically not enforcing federal drug laws then?

https://www.uslawshield.com/texas-bills-would-prohibit-enforcement-of-federal-gun-laws/

This may be the one good thing to come from legal weed. The States need to push back against the Federal Government and retake some of their rights and responsibilities.

[Martinjmpr]

This reply is formulated strictly within the bounds of reality.

There is no state law permitting the use of marijuana. There is only an affirmative defense. Further, state laws cannot legalize federal crimes. A critical distinction ignored by many in this state. Also, we could theoretically argue that the second amendment provides the right to own SAM misses to the stoned, alcoholic or mentally deficient until we're blue in the face because the 2A says so. The fact of the matter is, the country you live in regulates it, and if they so desire, when you break regulation, they will prosecute you. Prosecution on minor issues is less likely but can always happen. Sure, you could spend 1.5 million and ten years of your life (much of it jailed) to petition ceratori to the US Supreme Court and argue federalism in any case, maybe you're the 1% of cases that get heard in doing so. And, almost a complete guarantee, they will rule against you anyway, as the country (even if conservative) is not in the habit of taking power away from itself, regardless of what any amendment says. And sure, a state could make an argument for anything, but the gov't is going to say "no" and "no money", so they are not going to do it.

I think we're talking right past each other. Everything you said is true - right up to the point where someone challenges a prosecution in light of Heller and McDonald. Of course, until and unless someone is prosecuted for lying on the 4473 or for being in possession of a firearm while being a user of MJ, it's not likely that they'd have an opportunity to challenge the law, so the federal government can 'kick the can' down the street as long as they want to by simply declining to prosecute anyone for this particular violation of the law.

And of course the 9th Circuit has already ruled on this and upheld the Federal law but (a) the 9th circuit's opinion is only valid in that circuit and (b) the 9th circuit is notoriously anti-gun anyway so it's not surprising they would uphold any action that limits the right to bear arms (it's also worth noting that the 9th circuit, AFAIK, is the most frequently overruled circuit in the Federal appellate system.)

If a federal prosecutor tries to prosecute someone in a state not in the 9th circuit, and they raise Heller and McDonald and Federalism issues, the outcome could be very different. We've seen it before, for example in the Lopez decision in 1997 when SCOTUS slapped back at the Federal government trying to use the Commerce clause to justify the "gun free school zone" act.

[milwaukeeshaker]

I'm with you brother, but we are the minority here.

I'm actually more annoyed that the form 4473 exists in the first place, not so much the specifics that are on it.

[BladesNBarrels]

Credit cards can absolutely be used to buy weed. There are noy supposed to be ATM machines in potshops either, but some of them have an ATM anyway.

Learn something every day! How does the pot shop clear the credit card charge slips through a bank if the bank is not allowed to facilitate the sale of drugs?
Or are the shops not disclosing what the charges are?

[Irving]

Learn something every day! How does the pot shop clear the credit card charge slips through a bank if the bank is not allowed to facilitate the sale of drugs?
Or are the shops not disclosing what the charges are?

I don't know the answers to that, and I don't know any put shop owners to ask.

[Zundfolge]

Learn something every day! How does the pot shop clear the credit card charge slips through a bank if the bank is not allowed to facilitate the sale of drugs?
Or are the shops not disclosing what the charges are?
One of the guys I work with also works at a rec pot shop. They take cash only, but some of the med shops take CC's and he said that as he understands it, some smaller locally owned banks will take on one or two "high risk" accounts so that allows some medical dispensaries to get access to CC processing.

[bellavite1]

According to line 21 it would appear that CCW holders are not require to have a NICS check.
This failed in CO.
I wonder how that is going to play out...

[Rucker61]

Everything you said is true - right up to the point where someone challenges a prosecution in light of Heller and McDonald. Of course, until and unless someone is prosecuted for lying on the 4473

That's evidently pretty low risk. In the 2010 Brady Act Enforcement report, the data shows that 54k felons, fugitives and locally prohibited persons were denied after a NICS check. The FBI turned over a total of 58k names to ATF. ATF send 4k names to the field for investigation. 90 were prosecuted. 13 were found guilty.

[brutal]

Learn something every day! How does the pot shop clear the credit card charge slips through a bank if the bank is not allowed to facilitate the sale of drugs?
Or are the shops not disclosing what the charges are?

Pretty sure the feds actually relaxed that banking rule due to the increase in crime brought by the cash business.

Don't have time at the moment to goggle foo that, but I can probably find it.

[Guylee]

Hey guys, just in case anyone was wondering, weed is still federally illegal.

No sarcasm here. It's becoming reasily apparent that this entire state that completely forgotten that.

[Martinjmpr]

Hey guys, just in case anyone was wondering, weed is still federally illegal.

No sarcasm here. It's becoming reasily apparent that this entire state that completely forgotten that.

It's also pretty apparent that the Federal government isn't going to do anything to enforce those laws in states that have legalized weed. And every day that goes by without the federal government enforcing those laws, they become incrementally weaker.

Fun fact: In many states, adultery, fornication and sodomy are illegal, too. What do you think would happen if all of a sudden a state tried to enforce those laws?

[Irving]

It depends if people were willing to check a box to let the Federal Government know about their fornication.

[BushMasterBoy]

I have my fornication permit.

[Great-Kazoo]

Fun fact: In many states, adultery, fornication and sodomy are illegal, too. What do you think would happen if all of a sudden a state tried to enforce those laws?


Sounds like it could be a pain in the ass.

[BlasterBob]

I have my fornication permit.

Marriage license.[Sarcasm2]

[roberth]

Marriage license.[Sarcasm2]

[Beer][LOL]

[BULLSEYEGUY]

Nice! Can't even order the new 4473's yet to have on hand for the upcoming change in January. I tried last month, but I was told to try back in the middle of December....now they tell me it will be January 9th before THEY will even have the new forms. The morons won't even let me pre-order the forms....I have to call back in January. I can't order them until the 9th, and that is assuming that they actually have them then, and it takes them weeks usually to deliver my orders....and I am supposed to be using the new form by the 16th? (They DID say that they were going to mail each dealer a pack of 50 in a few weeks. That ought to hold us over!)

[TFOGGER]

Can you download and print a PDF of the new form?

[MarkCO]

Yes. You don't have to rely on ordering forms. Software can also generate and print them if updated.

In the past few years, all the ones I have signed have been software generated.