View Full Version : The Untold History of School
This interview is about the history of school starting all the way back to the Prussians in the 1800's. This touches on many topics from conspiracy theory to the general societal feelings about home schooling. The interviewer is Joshua Sheets from RadicalPersonalFinance.com. The interviewee is Brett Veinotte, who is the founder of The School Sucks project (http://schoolsucksproject.com/). These guys are from very different backgrounds and the interview is long, in-depth, and touches on many, many topics that I think a lot of members on here have talked about in other threads. The interview is nearly three hours long and broken up into two podcasts. I know we all have little time and short attention spans now a days, but if you've got a long drive or a lot of laundry to do or something. This is an interesting listen and if you've ever found yourself thinking that the school system is broken, then this will be relevant to your interests.
Part 1: https://radicalpersonalfinance.com/the-untold-history-of-school-that-you-probably-dont-know-1-of-2-interview-with-brett-veinotte-founder-of-the-school-sucks-project-rpf0089/
Part 2: https://radicalpersonalfinance.com/the-untold-history-of-school-that-you-probably-dont-know-2-of-2-interview-with-brett-veinotte-founder-of-the-school-sucks-project-rpf0090/
These guys come from two different backgrounds and have a great conversation about school in general and all the dumb things about school that has built into the general idea from the very beginning.
At the end of part 2 Joshua Sheets reads an essay called "The Story of Two Buses," by Dr. Gary North. The essay has no overlapping information from the interview, but is in the same train of thought.
The essay can be found here: http://americanvision.org/6523/the-story-of-two-buses/
Here it is in full.
Picture this. You’re driving down the highway with your nine-year-old son. You’re in the middle lane. On your right, one behind the other, are two buses. The bus in front is painted white. The bus behind is painted yellow. The bus in front has its windows painted over. The bus behind does not.
Your son asks you a question. “What are those two buses, Daddy?” You tell him that they are two very different kinds of buses. ” How are the different?” he asks. You explain that on the first bus are prisoners who are being taken to jail. On the second bus are students who are being taken to school. “But how is that different?” your son asks. That’s what I’m asking, too.
You tell your son that the men on the first bus are required to get on that bus. Then your son asks you if the students on the yellow bus have a choice in the matter. You think about it. Neither group has any choice in the matter. Somebody tells the members of both groups that they must get on that bus and stay on that bus until the bus comes to it’s destination.
Your son says he doesn’t understand. So, you try to make it clear to him. You tell him that the people on the white bus have committed crimes. They are bad people. They are being taken to jail. The people on the yellow bus are good people. They are being taken to school. Your son asks: “Why do they make the good people go on the bus?” That’s what I’m asking, too.
Remember, you’re talking to a nine-year-old. Nine-year-olds are not very sophisticated. They need clear answers. So, you had better be prepared to provide clear answers.
You tell your son that the good people on the yellow bus are being taken to school for their own good. Your son asks if the people on the white bus are being taken to jail, but not for their own good. No, you tell him. They are being taken to jail for their own good, too. Your son asks, “Then what the difference?”
The difference, you explain to your son, is that the people on the white bus are very bad and society intends to make them better. Your son asks: “Is society taking the people on the yellow bus to school in order to make them worse?” No, you tell him. Society is taking them to school in order to make them better people, too. “Then what’s the difference?”
The difference, you hope to explain, is that people on the white bus are dangerous people. In order to make society safer, society puts them in jail. The people on the yellow bus are not dangerous. “Then why are they forced to go to a place where they don’t want to go?” your son asks. “Because it’s good for them,” you answer. “But isn’t that why the people on the white bus are being taken to jail?” he asks.
You are getting frustrated. You tell your son that they’re required to get on the bus because when they are young they don’t know that it is a good thing for them to go to school. They don’t want to go to school. But they’re supposed to go to school. Your son replies that this sounds just like the people on the white bus. But they’re supposed to go to jail, you tell him. It’s for their own good. They’re going to be better people if they go to jail.
Isn’t that right? Isn’t the whole idea of sending people to jail is to rehabilitate them? Aren’t they supposed to become better people in jail? I mean, if they aren’t going to become better people, why not just sell them into slavery and use the money to pay restitution to their victims? Why build jails? Why paint buses white?
You tell your son that the bad people have to go to jail in order to keep them off the streets. The problem is, this is one of the reasons why society requires students to go to school. People want to keep the kids off the streets. They want to make certain that somebody in authority is in a position to tell the children what to do. They don’t trust the children to make their own decisions. They also don’t trust the criminals to make their own decisions.
This is more complicated than you thought, but you keep trying. You explain to your son that bad people must be kept from doing more bad things. Your son asks: “What are the bad things that kids do?” The light comes on. You tell your son that the children are dangerous to themselves, but the prisoners are dangerous to everybody else. The children may hurt themselves, but the prisoners may hurt other people. But your son wants to know why it is that the children must be taken to school in order to keep them from hurting themselves, when they can stay home and not hurt themselves.
You tell your son that it’s because people are not able to stay home with their children. Your son wants to know why not. You explain that both parents have to work to make enough money to live a good life. This means that somebody has to take care of their children. Your son wants to know why parents don’t hire somebody to come into their home and take care of the children. Why don’t they hire a teacher to take care of them? You explain that it is cheaper to hire one teacher to look after lots of students. Your son wants to know why it’s cheaper to send children to school when it costs money to build schools, buy buses, hire drivers and pay for fuel.
This is a smart kid.
You explain that the people who have children force people who do not have children to pay for the schools. Your son asks if this is the same thing as stealing. “Isn’t that what the people on the white bus did?” No, you explain, it’s not stealing. Your son asks, “How is it different?” Now you have a problem. You have to explain the difference between taking money from someone to benefit yourself as a private citizen, which is what a criminal does, and taking money from someone to benefit yourself as a voter. This is not so easy to explain.
You explain to your son that when you vote to take money away from someone so that you can educate your child, this is different from sticking a gun in somebody’s stomach and telling him that he has to turn his money over to you. Your son then asks if it would be all right to stick a gun in somebody’s stomach if you intended to use the money to educate your child. No, you explain, it’s not the same. When you tell someone that he has to educate your child in a school run by the government, it’s legal. When you tell somebody that he has to educate your child in a private school, where parents pay directly to hire teachers, it’s illegal.
Your son then asks you if it’s all right to take money from other people just so long as you hand over to the government the money to do the things that you want the government to do. You explain that this is correct. “But what if other people don’t think that the government ought to be doing these things?” You explain that people don’t have the right to tell the government not to do these things unless they can get more than half of the voters to tell the government to stop doing them. You son sees the logic of this. He asks you: “Are the people in the white bus being taken to jail because there were not enough of them to win the election?” You know this can’t be right, but it’s hard to say why it’s wrong.
Here is where you are so far. Society makes the prisoners go to jail. It sees the prisoners as dangerous. It wants to teach them to obey. Society makes children go to school. It sees these children as dangerous to themselves. It wants to teach them to obey. If it can teach both groups how to obey, society expects the world to improve. Society therefore uses tax money to pay for the operation of jails and schools. This includes paying for buses. But there is a difference. Prison buses are white. School buses are yellow.
There must be more to it than this.
So, you keep trying. Schools are run by the government to teach children how to make a living. Jails are run by the government to teach people how to stop stealing. Here is a major difference. “Do they teach prisoners how to make a good living?” your son asks. No, you tell him. The prison teaches them to obey. He asks: “Then why will they stop stealing when they get out of prison, if they don’t know how to make a good living?” Because, you explain, they will be afraid to do bad things any more. Your son asks if people in prison learn how to do bad things in prison. You admit that they do. “So,” he asks, “we send people to prison and school so that they will learn how to make a good living? Only the difference is that the government pays for a place where bad people teach other bad people how to steal without getting caught, but in school, the government pays good people to teach children how to be good citizens and vote. So, the bad people learn how to to steal from the good people without voting, and the good people learn how to steal from each other by voting. Is that how it works?”
That’s how it works. Both systems use buses to take the students to school. But the colors are different.
In prison, prisoners sell illegal drugs. Students do the same in school. In prison the food is terrible. It’s not very good in school – possibly prepared by the same food service company. In prison, there are constant inspections. Guards keep taking roll to make sure everyone is present and accounted for. Teachers do the same in school. In prison, you aren’t allowed to leave without permission. The same is true in school. In prison, bullies run the show. In school, they do, too. But there is a difference. Prison buses are white. School buses are yellow.
This is too extreme. The systems are different. Criminals are convicted in a court of law before they are sent to jail. Students, in contrast, are innocent. Some prisoners can get parole. The average term in prison for murder is under ten years. Students are put into the school system for twelve years. There is no parole.
Be thankful if you are not in one of those buses, either white or yellow.
GilpinGuy
02-22-2017, 22:53
I'll be checking these out for sure. Thanks for the links.
I've heard/read that we've used the same Prussian model - for 200 years. Seems like we could have improved on things a little. With online learning, schools will have some serious competition in the years to come.
On another note, I was talking to a rather left leaning acquaintance the other day who told me that he though $15k a year per high school kid was a good deal for taxpayers. These people really believe this. Amazing .
Check in with me after the interview and after you read that essay. Both of your comments are addressed. I imagine you'll come back more frustrated than ever.
We home schooled our two oldest and the youngest is spending most of her time at the Vo-Tech learning how to weld and diesel mechanic stuff. Thank goodness she finishes this year. IMO public schools are one of the worst uses of tax payer money in our country. Public school is the last place in anyone's life where they will be; segregated by age, talked at for 6 hours a day for half of a year, tested numerous times in ways that have little if anything to do with what anyone actually does in the work world, and taught by government employees who are governed by a union that is in the tank for the progressive left.
Do you ever read anything from fee.org? Some interesting and thought provoking articles related to financial education.
I'll add fee.org to my list. Thanks for the tip.
buffalobo
02-22-2017, 23:34
They have improved on it, the Prussian model works better than the developers ever dreamed.
The Prussian model is not about learning or education, it is about programming.
Look forward to checking out interview/discussion.
Stu, you might be interested in John Gatto's writings. My wife has read (I think) all of his books. We will be homeschooling once our little guy is old enough, and then his little brother and whomever else comes along.
I have a buddy who pulled his 15 year old son out of public school last year. He immediately set about on an ad hoc Classical education system, based largely on the Great Books concept + heavy math and science (buddy has an EE degree). His son went from being retar.. err.. "educated", to surpassing the national average for high school seniors on the SAT. He's about to get a GED and move on to college at 16 when his birthday comes up in a few months, likely majoring in either Engineering or IT. He would have him do things like watch a Netflix documentary on the Atom bomb to get him interested, THEN he would touch on the science behind it. Lib arts would be things like "Read this chapter from Aristotle's Politics and then we're gonna have a discussion on the topics in the chapter," which would lead to current events, etc. He just bought a vintage piano which needs to be restored. I imagine that will touch on physics (vibrations, etc.), carpentry, and maybe history or something.
I look forward to listening to the interview.
His book about The Untold History of Schooling is what this interview, and the entire website of Schoolsucksproject, is based upon. I've not read any of his stuff though. They refer to him and his book many times in the interview.
At the end of part 2 Joshua Sheets reads an essay called "The Story of Two Buses," by Dr. Gary North. The essay has no overlapping information from the interview, but is in the same train of thought.
The essay can be found here: http://americanvision.org/6523/the-story-of-two-buses/
Here it is in full.
Epic! Thanks for posting that, I'll try and check out the site and interviews as the day goes on and I have breaks.
I think a lot of us have come to know, or at least sensed, public school isn't about educating humans to increase their personal potential in life but rather "socialize" or train kids to become good citizens. In the past that meant one thing but it seems lately it means removing all ability to think freely/critically about a thing and come to an honest conclusion rather than a pre-conceived group-think PC conclusion. Marking "D" on a ballot is more important than reading, balancing a checkbook, changing a tire, or any other basic task lost on most (but not all) youth.
There is discussion in the interview about how it all looks like a big conspiracy theory, and if you go around stating relevant facts it makes you look like a tinfoil hat wearing boob, even though it's all true. As usual, the truth is a bit more nuanced with concern to people's intentions.
Did anyone ever listen to this? It seemed like many of you were passingly familiar with the history and I was looking forward to some interesting discussion.
Did anyone ever listen to this? It seemed like many of you were passingly familiar with the history and I was looking forward to some interesting discussion.
Haven't had time. My wife intends to listen to it, but she is already very familiar with Gatto's ideas.
Did anyone ever listen to this? It seemed like many of you were passingly familiar with the history and I was looking forward to some interesting discussion.
I skipped through the first interview and still haven't had time to fully listen/pay attention.
My wife's a teacher. Has taught at both public and private schools. I'll see if I can get her to listen to it and give comments, but I doubt it.
I often forget that not everyone spends more time driving than working like I do.
Delfuego
03-03-2017, 10:33
Couple of whiny millennials. Complaining, but offering no solutions. They suggested they are plenty of expert teachers on YouTube. [Roll1] 29 y/o guy with a 1 y/o kid who thinks he will reinvent the wheel of child rearing. Classic...
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I awarded you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
Aloha_Shooter
03-03-2017, 10:50
I'll be checking these out for sure. Thanks for the links.
I've heard/read that we've used the same Prussian model - for 200 years. Seems like we could have improved on things a little. With online learning, schools will have some serious competition in the years to come.
On another note, I was talking to a rather left leaning acquaintance the other day who told me that he though $15k a year per high school kid was a good deal for taxpayers. These people really believe this. Amazing .
I would argue that we did well using the Prussian model for a hundred years but have been doing rather poorly ever since self-appointed and self-promoted "education specialists" thought they could do better and started changing how we educated kids. I would advocate a return to the classical education of the late 19th or early 20th century over the bilge being promoted by "education professionals". If they have a Master's or Doctorate in "Education", they probably don't know how to teach.
Couple of whiny millennials. Complaining, but offering no solutions. They suggested they are plenty of expert teachers on YouTube. [Roll1] 29 y/o guy with a 1 y/o kid who thinks he will reinvent the wheel of child rearing. Classic...
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I awarded you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
Nice strawman deflection attempt, but if they are discussing Gatto's books and ideas it's simply incorrect to cast them off with mere hand waving. Perhaps you'll try table pounding next?
Delfuego
03-03-2017, 11:41
Unfortunately, a lot of parents completely suck so the children would be uneducated in many homes.This is a huge issue. Homeschooling may be feasible in a home with intelligent and literate parents, unfortunately in this country and many more countries in the world this is not the case. What do we do for the children of "dummies"? Those children may be brilliant, but without some form of organized education they will be lost to the world.
Nice strawman deflection attempt,You love using that simplistic term. I think your tinfoil may be a little tight. Just because one of these guys read a book by a guy, does not make him an expert on the subject matter within that book nor a historian of the Prussian education system. His synopsis of the the history of the education system was quite underwhelming. In my opinion, it is the classic case of a little bit of knowledge is a bad thin. Lots of little bits of knowledge stung together with thin threads. Ultimately leading nowhere.
He's just another guy on YouTube with an opinion. Did you happen to hear the portion where one guys asks the other about a book, neither have read it, then they proceed to give a synopsis of said book. I have had more interesting and fulfilling conversation on education 3 sheets to the wind at a backyard barbecue. They offer no solutions, only complaints.
Couple of whiny millennials. Complaining, but offering no solutions. They suggested they are plenty of expert teachers on YouTube. [Roll1] 29 y/o guy with a 1 y/o kid who thinks he will reinvent the wheel of child rearing. Classic...
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I awarded you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
I know this website gets old sometimes, but this is extra bitchy, even for you.
GilpinGuy
03-04-2017, 03:08
Did anyone ever listen to this? It seemed like many of you were passingly familiar with the history and I was looking forward to some interesting discussion.
Thanks for the reminder. I downloaded them, then forgot I had them. Just stuck in my routine with my normal podcasts I guess.
...Picking this back up while closing up my tax work and prepping for '17. After working this morning :)
I'd advocate "unschooling" for most children really. Unfortunately, a lot of parents completely suck so the children would be uneducated in many homes.
The nice thing is mine will grow up with an edge... motivated "fun" education in directions they express genuine interest. Then you have to consider, even a completely "average" child becomes brilliant, highly motivated and successful against their peers thanks to Amendment 64 in this state.
One thing that I think really helped in the past was the concept of a "well rounded" person/experience. Kids had groups, jobs, hobbies, internships (yes, even in high school), etc... Even though public school was biased, kids had chances to see how the real world works. Those experiences for me were invaluable.
I don't think those opportunities exist for kids anymore, and yes it's their parent's fault for either voting away opportunities (min wage) or being general deadbeats.
We are already thinking hard about this for our son it might mean an unpaid internship in high school with money pledged for college as a reward. In other words, we have to find a way to get him that experience and incentivize it.
As for not having canned solutions...
It's comical to me that our "highest cost in the developed world" was a case for healthcare reform packages as Obamacare (a non-solution); giving up our healthcare freedom, choices, and forcing us to pay more (and yes, we knew that bastard was lying the whole time about saving money).
But, the highest cost per pupil for primary education in the developed world, while consistently ranking at the bottom in performance (I think we were 38th last time I checked) is a sacred cow for Libs, teacher's unions, etc... Nope, can't touch the failure of education or the screechers come out and we saw what happened in DougCo and JeffCo.
The first step in fixing a problem is admitting we have a problem.
Finished podcast #1. Learned a lot about the history of failure (Horace Mann). Was very interesting.
The two things that kept coming up as alternatives were private and home schooling. Really sad that we can't figure something out or at least make private school more accessible (vouchers were a great idea).
I'm gonna listen to them on my commute next week. Know a little of the history of Prussian model.
Have you guys heard of Jordan B. Peterson
Message to millenials https://youtu.be/XbOeO_frzvg
-edit don't mean to hijack thread.. just didn't have any professors like this in school.
I don't necessarily think public school is that bad, you just need to understand the limitations. For example, my daughter and niece go to the same school. My sister-in-law is always saying how niece needs a tutor, and she often performs below our daughter who is a grade lower. With the school being the consistent factor, it's easy to see that my niece doesn't need a tutor, she needs a better parent. No one ever spends time with her or helps her with her homework. My wife does an excellent job with keeping our daughter on track, and does what she can with our niece, but she can only do so much in the limited amount of time she is over at our place.
I personally struggle with taking the time to sit with my kid while she's doing homework, so thank God for my wife and her efforts. I've been to almost every parent teacher meeting, and there have been times and areas where our daughter wasn't performing where she should have been. We got study material from the teacher, pulled some resources from the Internet, and took the time to get our kid where she needed to be. It didn't take that long, it made our daughter more confident, and she even uses those skills often around the house now.
HoneyBadger
03-05-2017, 01:47
Just seeing this thread for the first time. I'm interested.
GilpinGuy
03-05-2017, 02:08
Finished podcast #1. Learned a lot about the history of failure (Horace Mann). Was very interesting.
The two things that kept coming up as alternatives were private and home schooling. Really sad that we can't figure something out or at least make private school more accessible (vouchers were a great idea).
Just finished part 1 myself and I agree.
Thanks. This looks interesting. I will have to check it out when I have some time. I guess one question is what to do with children who have irresponsible parents and who's responsibility they are.
For the rest, I think there is no reason to compell their children to go to any school. Especially a public one.
Women have largely undervalued their greatest influence in society in my generation and possibly men as well. I see after raising my boys most of the way that though it is often mundane and lonely to watch after them constantly and to educate them, it is by far the greatest influence I could have on society.
As to cost, the most I have paid in a single year for curriculum and books is $500 per child and that is for high school. Of course this does not include anyone's salary or any of the extra costs of public education.
I don't mind saying that one of my boys was slow to learn reading, but never was made to feel stupid or behind and finally got motivated to read some challenging books and became quite an avid reader. My kids are not the most brilliant people and neither am I but they always test safely into the average range on standardized tests and sometimes up into the 90th percentile in certain subjects.
Home schooling has grown by leaps and bounds in this country in recent years and for good reason. The materials available to parents are plentiful and of very high quality. Much better than when I was in school. It is also legal in all 50 states. I would encourage other parents who want this for their family that it is great for family unity and the wellbeing and education of the child.
GilpinGuy
03-05-2017, 22:56
I spent an hour or so walking with my little girl today in the woods and I bet she learned more than a kid in 1st grade did in a month.
"What's this?" Over and over again. Awesome! She learned all about aspens: how they lose their leaves, how they come back in the spring, how their roots make more aspens. Bears: how that might be a good place for a den, stay away, how they wake up in the spring and are hungry. On and on. Curious and wanting to learn EVERYTHING. Not just how to sit at a desk and be quite, stand in line and be quiet, do what you're told and be quiet, and and be a good worker for the rest of your life. And be quiet.
Those that are against anything but government schools.....man, deprogram yourself.
I spent an hour or so walking with my little girl today in the woods and I bet she learned more than a kid in 1st grade did in a month.
"What's this?" Over and over again. Awesome! She learned all about aspens: how they lose their leaves, how they come back in the spring, how their roots make more aspens. Bears: how that might be a good place for a den, stay away, how they wake up in the spring and are hungry. On and on. Curious and wanting to learn EVERYTHING. Not just how to sit at a desk and be quite, stand in line and be quiet, do what you're told and be quiet, and and be a good worker for the rest of your life. And be quiet.
Those that are against anything but government schools.....man, deprogram yourself.
Wow. That is a great perspective.
Nature walks are one of my favorite things to do with my kids and I feel the same way about how much it offers for learning. Actually, anything an adult is doing throughout their day works the same for them, and it is even more fantastic when they have a neighbor, grand parent, uncle etc to follow around. Many of these people do lots of things I don't and have been great assets to my kids.
I want to listen to these when I get a chance, but alas, in the mornings I post on here between study breaks and in the evenings I have other things to do. I know Delfuego's interpretation is wrong, and is a buffet of logical fallacies, but I need to hear exactly what the presenters say to counter him (lest I Leroy Jenkins it).
Gilpinguy, you're describing the process of "poetic knowledge" acquisition as described by Dr. James S. Taylor and Dr. John Senior.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/what-is-poetic-knowledge
https://www.amazon.com/Poetic-Knowledge-Education-James-Taylor/dp/0791435865/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488807146&sr=8-1&keywords=poetic+knowledge+james+taylor
Dr. Taylor was a student of Dr. Senior in the Integrated Humanities Program at KU.
That program's motto was "Nascantur in Admiratione" (Let them be born in wonder).
http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/where_wonder_cultivated_catholicity
As I understand it, the modern education system was championed by the Rockefellers, Carnegie, etc., not because they were actually interested in the true, well-rounded education of people, but because they wanted to form the education so that it benefitted them with more workers. A nascent iteration of Common Core, essentially (there is nothing new under the sun. ;) ).
Does it strike no one as odd that when education "evolved", it devolved? And in turn, highly literate letters from 8th graders became, to the present day, a messy waste of paper and screen? How a young man would enter college at 14 in the middle ages, suddenly did so at 18, maybe? That college became an end rather than a means, and inflated the market with so many useless degrees? Is it any wonder that the champions of pre-ww2 eugenics and population control would champion a system in which it's almost impossible for a lower to middle class man be the sole provider -- and this necessitates his wife working, which necessitates "school" (education camp/babysitting) instead of home education, which furthers the cycle? How the literacy of the nation declined more as such a duty as education of the young was placed in the hands of the state? How a boy suited for maybe 4 hours of school (which is all that's really needed if not messing around) is suddenly stuck in a desk for 8 hours and then told he has something wrong with him (ADHD): because he's simply a boy being a boy -- meant to run and jump and kill imaginary enemies, fish, hunt, ponder his lessons while elsewhere -- instead of an automaton sitting still and regurgitating facts for 8 hours?
As a nation, if these things are all an improvement, we should be seeing an intellectual takeover of the entire world. Instead we are slipping more and more. Throwing money and special programs and "tech" at it is not going to solve the problem. I fail to believe the architects of failure can suddenly build a Shangri-La. I fail to believe that we should finance continued failure.
Aloha_Shooter
03-06-2017, 10:09
When I took Constitutional Law, public schooling was cited as an example of "public interest" -- the increase in public schooling came because it was in the best interests of the public at large that future citizens be educated on the basics necessary to function as a citizen of the republic. I actually think that was at the heart of Carnegie's support for public education because he had always rued the lack of education available to him as a youngster. You can argue about why the "robber barons" of industry generally felt compelled to set up endowments and charities or support "public good" causes but it wasn't always about bolstering their industries.
As far as the degradation in schooling today, I think a lot of it stems from taking schooling for granted because it's publicly funded. When kids or parents couldn't get something (like education) because they lacked the resources, they valued it more. In many cases, kids and parents don't really value public education and view it as a chore or onerous task. Asian children in Hawaii used to do quite well even in public schools because they were taught culturally to value education. They might have gotten even more by attending private schools but they made the most of what they were given. I don't think that's a common attitude today, even in Hawaii. The government and NEA/AFT certainly deserve their share of the blame for the degradation in education but a great deal of blame should also go to the parents and society that enabled that malarkey.
Kudos to all of you who take your childrens' education seriously regardless of which option you choose. One way or another, they are our future.
Well, I listened to the first one today since I was just loitering around at the laundry mat anyway. I think they make interesting points about intellectuals feeling that they need to structure other people's lives for them, and what is the purpose of education anyway? Also, I had never thought of an education system as being a tool for assimilation of immigrants. I have to say that is an interesting thought but I don't see it working effectively under the current system.
Found this article today. I always like to hear from people once they are finished with their school experience. I can't say I have exactly "unschooled" but I am at least open to the idea.
https://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/09/02/how-do-unschoolers-turn-out/
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