View Full Version : Fook United Airlines
CUSTOMER SERVICE down the shitter.
We are being treated like cattle and I am tired of it. Robbed when we purchase a ticket. Herded through the gates by TSA and frisked like criminals. Herded onto the aircraft to even more cramped seats. I took a United flight in march only to find they squeezed 8 more rows into economy. We are given a sip of water and herded off the aircraft. I am tired of being treated like shit! Now they are having a passenger forcibly removed from the aircraft because they needed to make room for 4 employees/overbooked? United releases media blurb about overbooking? Bullshit. Get that shitty CEO on the TV and issue a heartfelt apology to all customers. I will never consider purchasing a United ticket again. OWN IT and don't forget who pays you!
Rant off but really pissed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo
funkymonkey1111
04-10-2017, 14:55
I thought this was you at first
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/04/10/united-airlines-man-dragged-overbooked-flight-chicago-viral-facebook-video
(http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/04/10/united-airlines-man-dragged-overbooked-flight-chicago-viral-facebook-video)
Martinjmpr
04-10-2017, 15:02
Serious question: When you book a flight, what is your no. 1 criteria that determines which one you choose?
If it's the cost of the flight - which it is with most people - then you pretty much are encouraging this kind of thing, aren't you? You're basically saying "I want the absolute chepest way to get from point A to point B." And once you arrive safely at your destination, you have received all the "value" you expected from your purchase, right?
Back when prices were regulated, airlines had to compete on non-price factors. That's why people have fond memories of flying back in the 60's and 70's. Airlines had to earn your business by pampering you with perks and fancy treatment, otherwise you'd take your $$ to another airline.
An airline today is just a bus with wings. If you buy a bargain-basement ticket, then the airline's sole obligation is to haul your butt to your destination without crashing and that's it.
Comfort? Convenience? Courtesy? You can get all of that you want - if you're willing to pay for it. If you're not, you'll get herded into the back with the other cattle.
I hate flying commercial. Most of the time given the choice I'd rather drive. SO glad I don't have a job that requires me to travel!
hurley842002
04-10-2017, 15:06
I will never consider purchasing a United ticket again.
Looks like you solved your own problem.
mattiooo
04-10-2017, 15:12
One thing I always do is make sure I have an assigned seat when I purchase my tickets. That means I'm not in the group of overbooked people fighting for the seats that are left.
Funky - yes that is what is making me angry! They basically ripped the the old Asian guy out of his seat knocking him out in the process and literally dragged him off the aircraft. Come to your own conclusions but I don't think paying customers deserve this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4396986/Passengers-film-moment-police-drag-man-United-plane.html
The guy somehow gets back on the aircraft after being drug off:
https://twitter.com/Tyler_Bridges/status/851228695360663552
BladesNBarrels
04-10-2017, 15:29
Serious question: When you book a flight, what is your no. 1 criteria that determines which one you choose?
If it's the cost of the flight - which it is with most people - then you pretty much are encouraging this kind of thing, aren't you? You're basically saying "I want the absolute chepest way to get from point A to point B." And once you arrive safely at your destination, you have received all the "value" you expected from your purchase, right?
Back when prices were regulated, airlines had to compete on non-price factors. That's why people have fond memories of flying back in the 60's and 70's. Airlines had to earn your business by pampering you with perks and fancy treatment, otherwise you'd take your $$ to another airline.
An airline today is just a bus with wings. If you buy a bargain-basement ticket, then the airline's sole obligation is to haul your butt to your destination without crashing and that's it.
Comfort? Convenience? Courtesy? You can get all of that you want - if you're willing to pay for it. If you're not, you'll get herded into the back with the other cattle.
I hate flying commercial. Most of the time given the choice I'd rather drive. SO glad I don't have a job that requires me to travel!
Yep! Deregulation. Competition will make the industry stronger and the customer happier! Unintended consequences.
Circuits
04-10-2017, 15:37
Dude brought it on himself after the involuntary deboarding - he was escorted off, then ran back onto the aircraft and hid in the back, forcing officers to remove him, delaying the flight a further 2 hrs or so.
He's being compensated for his involuntary deboarding, but might yet face charges for reboarding and refusing to leave.
Sucks when irrops make the crew use a computer to randomly choose persons to IDB (they are not required to keep upping the compensation offers until someone bites), but those are in the terms of carriage on your ticket.
Bad day for that customer. According to a friend who is a pilot, that guy committed a felony by refusing to obey air crew instructions. It was Chicago PD that hauled him off.
In this case, it wasn't the usual overbooking that is SOP. It's a result of the storms on the East Coast last week that created chaos for all the airlines with flight cancellations. They all have to deadhead crews around the country because many crews hit the time limits or are in the wrong place. Also rescheduled flights often end up on different planes so even a confirmed seat doesn't mean anything after a severe weather event. Many passengers were on standby tickets, which gives them even less rights.
Wasn't even a United crew but subcontractors. Still a PR nightmare for United. But pretty much all airlines suck these days if you don't have Business Class or better.
hurley842002
04-10-2017, 15:46
Dude brought it on himself after the involuntary deboarding - he was escorted off, then ran back onto the aircraft and hid in the back, forcing officers to remove him, delaying the flight a further 2 hrs or so.
He's being compensated for his involuntary deboarding, but might yet face charges for reboarding and refusing to leave.
Sucks when irrops make the crew use a computer to randomly choose persons to IDB (they are not required to keep upping the compensation offers until someone bites), but those are in the terms of carriage on your ticket.
I keep hearing "terms of carriage", and I get it, but United is still in the business of customer service, and this is a classic example of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should", they absolutely should have continued to "up the ante" until someone volunteered (which is fairly common practice), as they are the ones who over booked the flight.
I won't excuse the doctors behavior, but I hope United pays, one way or another.
This happened at O'hare international. United could have transported the 4 employees on a different flight or another carrier instead of bumping paying customers. Much bigger problems now cause United is going to get their ass handed to them. Hopefully they refocus on customer service.
NFATrustGuy
04-10-2017, 15:51
I can fly for free or almost free to anywhere in the world. In the last year I've traveled by commercial plane exactly ZERO times except when forced to do so for work.
When I retire from my airline job, my goal is to never set foot on a commercial jet for the rest of my life. If I can't drive or fly myself to a destination in a small plane, I don't need to go there.
The industry is in a sad state.
I can fly for free or almost free to anywhere in the world. In the last year I've traveled by commercial plane exactly ZERO times except when forced to do so for work.
When I retire from my airline job, my goal is to never set foot on a commercial jet for the rest of my life. If I can't drive or fly myself to a destination in a small plane, I don't need to go there.
The industry is in a sad state.
It is good to hear from an insider. Thank you for your comment!
Dude brought it on himself after the involuntary deboarding - he was escorted off, then ran back onto the aircraft and hid in the back, forcing officers to remove him, delaying the flight a further 2 hrs or so.
He's being compensated for his involuntary deboarding, but might yet face charges for reboarding and refusing to leave.
Sucks when irrops make the crew use a computer to randomly choose persons to IDB (they are not required to keep upping the compensation offers until someone bites), but those are in the terms of carriage on your ticket.
Dude was involuntarily deboarded on his back, after being knocked out. He returned to the plane after that, and was provided medical attention, delaying the flight.
All because of piss poor planning and practices on United's part. United knew it had 4 crew to send somewhere. They should have denied boarding to 4 customers (as outlined in the contract of carriage). Not attempted to remove 4 customers after asses were in seats.
BushMasterBoy
04-10-2017, 16:52
I foresee a 6 figure check to the guy. $100,000 minimum. Lawyers drool over things like this.
According to CPD he fell into the arm rest and injured himself..
Customer service is non-existent these days. A small investment into your customers because YOU over booked it would seem logical but nope and why should they? United will keep filling planes because in 30 days, something new will pop up and people will forget about this. Or just say "welp, its part of flying" just like people do with the TSA gropefests. The general public is docile after the topic stops trending.
I foresee a 6 figure check to the guy. $100,000 minimum. Lawyers drool over things like this.
I am not suggesting the guy did this for financial gain but he played it just right. This could be a million plus payout.
More ranting:
I'm not a lawyer but I see the ticket as being a contract. His ass was in the seat provided by the contract. United failed to plan and decided to spontaneously change the terms of the contract. United could have solved the problem in other ways. Weather delays and crew placement is not a new problem and should be handled better. Delays are not handled better because United chooses to screw their customers instead. United calls the cops to enforce their breach of contract. The cops use excessive force on a person who did not commit a crime. Based on these practices, this could have been any passenger on any flight. Most passengers are too complacent to make a stand. I applaud this man for standing up to United and their business practices.
Cliff Notes:
The customer paid for the seat and his ass was in the seat which he paid for. The customer was not a terrorist and didn't cause a problem until United arbitrarily decided to throw him off to make room for United employees. I will not accept this and will fight with the only method I have. $ and my employers $$$. FUCK UNITED AIRLINES!
Pro Tip for United - If you need get more employees on a flight, give them oxygen masks and a sleeping back and throw them in the cargo hold. You already have the passenger compartment filled like a can of sardines.
...and some people wonder why I drive 1,500 miles each way to visit my folks.
I heard one of the United employees was wearing tights!
...and some people wonder why I drive 1,500 miles each way to visit my folks.
Because it's your sick little way to pre-game horrible family time?
Airline overbook all the time, but this was poorly handled by United mgmt and employees.
When I was working at an domestic and intl airline part time, mgmt will tell us to find people who are willing to take another flight for $$$$$. (usually triple digit % higher than price of ticket + airfare +hotel).
If people don't get enough volunteer, there is second stage. Staff will ask around for $$$$ for even higher compensation near the gate area.
There are ALMOST ALWAYS PEOPLE who are willing to take another flight for $$$$$$$.
Corporate (transportation ind) should not even "drag" this far by making compensation much higher.
You gotta pay to overbook. This was not the case.
Maybe only way airline to work for efficiently is when they have over 75% short interest like decade ago?
Because it's your sick little way to pre-game horrible family time?
Go screw yourself Irving. You know nothing about my family.
United CEO Apologizes After Video Shows Man Dragged Off Flight (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-ceo-apologizes-after-video-shows-man-dragged-off-flight/ar-BBzFbry?li=BBnb7Kz)
I can fly for free or almost free to anywhere in the world. In the last year I've traveled by commercial plane exactly ZERO times except when forced to do so for work.
When I retire from my airline job, my goal is to never set foot on a commercial jet for the rest of my life. If I can't drive or fly myself to a destination in a small plane, I don't need to go there.
The industry is in a sad state.
You and me both brother.
So long as I'm not traveling for the purpose of some sort of an emergency, I'll step off of an overbooked flight and take the voucher all day long. It's happened 3 of the last 5 flights I've had and it's made me almost $2600 in vouchers.
Go screw yourself Irving. You know nothing about my family.
United CEO Apologizes After Video Shows Man Dragged Off Flight (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-ceo-apologizes-after-video-shows-man-dragged-off-flight/ar-BBzFbry?li=BBnb7Kz)
Easy bub, that was a cookie cutter family joke. No sane person would drive 1,500 miles to see people they don't like.
ruthabagah
04-10-2017, 19:23
I have had good experience with united over the years.... maybe i am lucky.
Once i took a 900$ voucher, plus hotel on an overbooked international flight. I was the lucky one since the flight got cancelled, but because i gave up my seat, i had a confirmed seat on the next flight, where all the other passengers got delayed 3 days....
Easy bub, that was a cookie cutter family joke. No sane person would drive 1,500 miles to see people they don't like.
Your assertions were not funny.
hurley842002
04-10-2017, 19:44
I won't repeat them.
Wow, it's a sad state around here when Irv can't crack one of his funnys without making someone cry.
Honey Badger282.8
04-10-2017, 19:46
Pretty bad PR for United. Still, I'd fly United any day of the week before I ever fly Frontier again.
We don't need to derail the thread, but we don't know what's going on in people's lives at any given time. While I was using his premise to make a run of the mill no one likes going to see family joke, and not saying anything about his family specifically, that doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it that way. I'll be the first to admit that I crack a lot of jokes, and with high volume comes a pretty high flop rate. There are going to be times when I pick the wrong person/time to set-up a joke. That's okay. Sometimes I go off on people here when they say something I'm feeling particularly sensitive about on whatever day. Cheers everyone. Down with commercial air travel, hurrah!
How would you you like to be an airline employee dealing with the angry traveling public everyday...not for me!
Most of us got the joke, stu.
DireWolf
04-10-2017, 20:10
Pretty bad PR for United. Still, I'd fly United any day of the week before I ever fly Frontier again.
This....I had summit status with Frontier when they got acquired by the Spirit airlines people....Two flights later and I said fuck that, never again.....
The real problem is that they know damn well that there's a significant portion of the population who have no choice but to fly and since most of us enjoy not being in prison, they (ignorant airline employees - but to be fair, not all of them) can pull all kinds of shit without getting their teeth knocked the fuck out.....
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
Madeinhb
04-10-2017, 20:14
Airlines are legally allowed to bump passengers, even once they are seated. Thank deregulation for that. However, 99.99999% of time - they bump before boarding. This was just handled wrong by United
We don't need to derail the thread, but we don't know what's going on in people's lives at any given time. While I was using his premise to make a run of the mill no one likes going to see family joke, and not saying anything about his family specifically, that doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it that way. I'll be the first to admit that I crack a lot of jokes, and with high volume comes a pretty high flop rate. There are going to be times when I pick the wrong person/time to set-up a joke. That's okay. Sometimes I go off on people here when they say something I'm feeling particularly sensitive about on whatever day. Cheers everyone. Down with commercial air travel, hurrah!
Yeah, my dad's health is in decline and I won't have him much longer, so jokes about my family or my relationship to my family are really not something I take lightly. I missed my chance to visit with them last year due to my wife's surgeries and my spinal fusion surgery. As a rule, I don't talk about any member to this board's family as a joke or in any negative way. You can poke fun at me, I'm a target rich opportunity. My family is another story. Thanks, Stu.
As for airlines, I have control issues. I don't like to cede myself to being treated like cargo. I also love to drive and see some beautiful parts of this great country. I'm really looking forward to our next trip through Montana and the Idaho panhandle.
Sounds like United Airlines is having a real Monday today.
funkymonkey1111
04-10-2017, 20:53
Bad day for that customer. According to a friend who is a pilot, that guy committed a felony by refusing to obey air crew instructions. It was Chicago PD that hauled him off.
In this case, it wasn't the usual overbooking that is SOP. It's a result of the storms on the East Coast last week that created chaos for all the airlines with flight cancellations. They all have to deadhead crews around the country because many crews hit the time limits or are in the wrong place. Also rescheduled flights often end up on different planes so even a confirmed seat doesn't mean anything after a severe weather event. Many passengers were on standby tickets, which gives them even less rights.
Wasn't even a United crew but subcontractors. Still a PR nightmare for United. But pretty much all airlines suck these days if you don't have Business Class or better.
yeah, fuck your pilot friend. it's that b.s. attitude of "if you cross me it's a felony" that escalates the idiotic tension on planes. If i never set foot on another commercial airliner it'd be fine with me--listening to some a-hole glorified bus driver telling me what the wind direction is. Who, in the history of being a passenger on a plane, gives a crap about the wind speed and wind direction? "oh shit, it's blowing 19 miles from the east in denver--i guess i'd better not eat that second bag of peanuts!"
and as for over booking, i understand how these flying bus lines want to hedge their bets. but have you been on a flight since 9/11 that has had an empty seat? maybe it's just that i'm going places that people want to go, but i can't remember a vacant seat on any flight in the last 15 years.
What was the Pepsi thing?
Never mind, I found it.
NFATrustGuy
04-10-2017, 21:31
I hear you have a
very small plane.
Yes, I do. I once passed a guy on downwind when he was taking his Private Pilot checkride. (I knew the examiner and coordinated the pass via radio before I did it.) The examiner later told me the Applicant insisted that the plane that passed them was a giant scale radio-controlled plane. It has an 18' wingspan and is 16' long. It weighs about 650# empty and top speed is about 180mph with a 100hp engine. A Midget Mustang.
Honestly not much of a traveling machine, but it's fun and cheap for hamburger runs and entertainment. I'm not really one to go on vacations.
JohnnyEgo
04-10-2017, 21:52
And to think my biggest issue with United before this was their window-middle-aisle boarding strategy.
I like Southwest. Everyone's equally surly. I don't have any data to back this up, but I believe there are fewer fights on Southwest flights because everyone already knows that if you are flying Southwest, you can't have that much to lose.
I fly SWA pretty much whenever I can on flights of 2 hours or less. 2 hours or more, and I usually fly United for the cheap 1st class upgrade. Now possibly with free concussions along with the hot towels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
United CEO doubles down in email to employees, says passenger was 'disruptive and belligerent' (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/united-ceo-doubles-down-in-email-to-employees-says-passenger-was-disruptive-and-belligerent/ar-BBzFXm5?li=BBnb7Kz)
In an email to employees, United CEO Oscar Munoz addressed an incident in which an overbooked passenger had to be forcibly removed from a United plane.
United CEO Oscar Munoz doubled down in a letter to employees on Monday evening, claiming that employees "followed established procedures" when removing a passenger from a plane because it was overbooked, and calling the passenger "disruptive and belligerent."
Text of letter from United CEO defending employees (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/text-of-letter-from-united-ceo-defending-employees/ar-BBzGiwF?li=BBnb7Kz)
Yes, I do. I once passed a guy on downwind when he was taking his Private Pilot checkride. (I knew the examiner and coordinated the pass via radio before I did it.) The examiner later told me the Applicant insisted that the plane that passed them was a giant scale radio-controlled plane. It has an 18' wingspan and is 16' long. It weighs about 650# empty and top speed is about 180mph with a 100hp engine. A Midget Mustang.
Honestly not much of a traveling machine, but it's fun and cheap for hamburger runs and entertainment. I'm not really one to go on vacations.
I'll bite. Ultra light? Long-e-z? Your cruise is 180, or Vne? Must be a slippery airframe either way way.
I've got 200hp and 180 is close to my Vne. Cruise is no where near.
Mustang Aeronautics (http://www.mustangaero.com)
I had to look up the Midget Mustang (http://www.mustangaero.com/Midget%20Mustang/Midget%20Mustang.html). Pretty slick little aircraft.
I'll be....
I figured midget Mustang was a turn of phrase... Not a model.
Neat!
P.s. Oshkosh?
Yes, I do. I once passed a guy on downwind when he was taking his Private Pilot checkride. (I knew the examiner and coordinated the pass via radio before I did it.) The examiner later told me the Applicant insisted that the plane that passed them was a giant scale radio-controlled plane. It has an 18' wingspan and is 16' long. It weighs about 650# empty and top speed is about 180mph with a 100hp engine. A Midget Mustang.
Honestly not much of a traveling machine, but it's fun and cheap for hamburger runs and entertainment. I'm not really one to go on vacations.
I'll bite. Ultra light? Long-e-z? Your cruise is 180, or Vne? Must be a slippery airframe either way way.
I've got 200hp and 180 is close to my Vne. Cruise is no where near.
Mini Mustang, like he said.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/27743-Airplane-Pics?p=1540739&viewfull=1#post1540739
And another picture a few posts down.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/27743-Airplane-Pics?p=1541627&viewfull=1#post1541627
ETA: Ah man, I spent all that time looking up that thread and missed it by that much.
BushMasterBoy
04-11-2017, 00:25
Fascism at its finest. Where laws protect corporations more than the people it is suppose to serve. What should happen is the FAA suspend United Airlines flight operations for a month...
http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/chicago-united-express-lambasted-man-dragged-off-plane-46720980
Circuits
04-11-2017, 00:49
Fascism at its finest. Where laws protect corporations more than the people it is suppose to serve. What should happen is the FAA suspend United Airlines flight operations for a month...
http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/chicago-united-express-lambasted-man-dragged-off-plane-46720980
Why would they do that? The flight was "Republic Airlines, operating as 'United Express'?"
Hope you'd be OK with the feds pulling your license over the actions of a security officer on behalf of your subcontractor...
BushMasterBoy
04-11-2017, 01:24
not enough seating, prepare for a beating
Bailey Guns
04-11-2017, 06:47
Fascism at its finest. Where laws protect corporations more than the people it is suppose to serve. What should happen is the FAA suspend United Airlines flight operations for a month...
http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/chicago-united-express-lambasted-man-dragged-off-plane-46720980
You're complaining about fascism but you're OK with a gov't agency suspending a major airline without due process?
Grant H.
04-11-2017, 08:56
yeah, fuck your pilot friend. it's that b.s. attitude of "if you cross me it's a felony" that escalates the idiotic tension on planes. If i never set foot on another commercial airliner it'd be fine with me--listening to some a-hole glorified bus driver telling me what the wind direction is. Who, in the history of being a passenger on a plane, gives a crap about the wind speed and wind direction? "oh shit, it's blowing 19 miles from the east in denver--i guess i'd better not eat that second bag of peanuts!"
and as for over booking, i understand how these flying bus lines want to hedge their bets.
but have you been on a flight since 9/11 that has had an empty seat? maybe it's just that i'm going places that people want to go, but i can't remember a vacant seat on any flight in the last 15 years.
The airline didn't write the law, they just use it to their advantage. So, saying "nice things" about his pilot friend really just reflects on you. Not trying to call you out, but sharing some friendly advice.
Empty Seats? Yeah, normally...
8/10 of the last flights I have been on have had empty seats. 5 of those I have had the entire row to myself.
Flying to major destinations like Vegas, BWI, San Fran, Etc...
It's all in when you fly. Even when I had to fly for a company, basically every week, I could arrange my flights so I had a much more relaxed flight.
Bash on United all you want, but its either them or Southwest (with auto check-in) for me.
Martinjmpr
04-11-2017, 09:00
My last United story is a lot less dramatic but I'm still reluctant to book them for any kind of flights. Back in 2000 when I was still in the National Guard I did an Annual Training with a unit out of California. Flew commercial to LA and then met the unit, from there we went over to Korea for 3 weeks and then came back. Our return flight was booked on United, flying back on a Saturday as I had to be back at school and work on Monday. Well, we got to LAX around 8:00 am Saturday, only to find that our flight had been cancelled for some reason.
I asked if we were automatically rebooked on another flight and was told that no, we had to re-book ourselves. So they offered to rebook us on another flight that didn't leave until something like 7:00 that night. I said that was unacceptable, we needed to get back to Denver, and they said they could book us through Phoenix on a flight that would leave mid-afternoon. So we hung around the airport for another 4 or 5 hours, only to find that the Phoenix flight had also been cancelled and now it was impossible to get us on the 7:00 Denver flight. We ended up leaving for Phoenix around 6:00 pm, only to get to Phoenix and find that our flight there was also delayed.
When all was said and done, I think we got back into Denver around 1:00 AM on Sunday and I calculated that if we had simply cancelled our flights, rented a car and drove the ~18 hours or so it took us for this ordeal, we would have been back in Denver about the same time.
Grant H.
04-11-2017, 09:01
You're complaining about fascism but you're OK with a gov't agency suspending a major airline without due process?
Details aren't important...
It's all about "my rights" and "what I get" in this thread...
clodhopper
04-11-2017, 09:01
Maybe could have been handled better. Oh well. It wasn't United proper, but a contractor. It wasn't United staff that pulled the guy out of the seat, it was the PD. Interesting that neither Republic nor the PD are getting pounded over this.
What was wrong with all the passengers on the plane? Hold on there, I probably am not going the direction you think on this. How many lazy, self-centered, faceybook thumbdowners were sitting on that plane just hoping that someone else will pull the bozo ticket rather than them? They all knew 4 someones were going to be bumped and still no one took the payment offer. Seriously? NO ONE on a plane load of people can take a later flight? Then, when an elderly dude is picked, refusing to leave and causing an issue, STILL no one will stand up and say "I will take his place, let me get my stuff and I will step off"? or even "Hey stewardess, I am leaning toward getting off, can you ask the airline to sweeten the deal a bit?". Nope, just gonna sit here, like life is happening on the internet, and comment on how rude or rough the PD is being to the dude who is just so important that he cant accept his seat number was picked. Oooh, thumbsdown United, those corporate bastards. frowny face, cause that'll really make a statement.
A piece of standard carriage contracting, well pretty much any service agreement contracting, that bothers me is the current trend to bury everything in 800 pages of complex legal lingo that you are expected to fully read and understand in a short time period. Sure, bloat it up so people will just scroll through and say OK rather than understanding what they are reading. Yep, I do it too, but.... when I get caught in the crack and stung for having not read it, I suck it up and accept the consequences. I suspect many companies are hoping that the safety blanket wall of text will protect them, but I see more and more issues where the client doesn't understand the contract and the social media hammers the company. Maybe it is still just a cost of business, but I imagine that the number crunchers at United are looking at that very closely today.
The real losers in this whole pile of overblown crap..... United shareholders. Oh wait.... anyone wealthy enough to own United shares has to be a 1%er so eff those guys! Amiright!?!
I have to fly for business. I will still fly United before anyone else. Was a frontier aficionado for years, til the buyout screwed them up. Cant stand the Southwest cattle call seating, otherwise I would fly them more.
clodhopper
04-11-2017, 09:37
My last United story is a lot less dramatic but I'm still reluctant to book them for any kind of flights. Back in 2000 when I was still in the National Guard I did an Annual Training with a unit out of California. Flew commercial to LA and then met the unit, from there we went over to Korea for 3 weeks and then came back. Our return flight was booked on United, flying back on a Saturday as I had to be back at school and work on Monday. Well, we got to LAX around 8:00 am Saturday, only to find that our flight had been cancelled for some reason.
I asked if we were automatically rebooked on another flight and was told that no, we had to re-book ourselves. So they offered to rebook us on another flight that didn't leave until something like 7:00 that night. I said that was unacceptable, we needed to get back to Denver, and they said they could book us through Phoenix on a flight that would leave mid-afternoon. So we hung around the airport for another 4 or 5 hours, only to find that the Phoenix flight had also been cancelled and now it was impossible to get us on the 7:00 Denver flight. We ended up leaving for Phoenix around 6:00 pm, only to get to Phoenix and find that our flight there was also delayed.
When all was said and done, I think we got back into Denver around 1:00 AM on Sunday and I calculated that if we had simply cancelled our flights, rented a car and drove the ~18 hours or so it took us for this ordeal, we would have been back in Denver about the same time.
That aint so bad. Been through much worse. In my experience, most cancelled flights are not due to the airline. Sure, some are, like a flight that is nearly empty will be cancelled. But from what I have experienced, and I research each flight that is cancelled on me (why not, I am stuck in an airport with little to do anyway) and usually it is due to the local tower, the destination tower or national air control. Yep, you don't usually hear about it, so it is natural to blame the carrier.
funkymonkey1111
04-11-2017, 10:18
I have to fly for business. I will still fly United before anyone else. Was a frontier aficionado for years, til the buyout screwed them up. Cant stand the Southwest cattle call seating, otherwise I would fly them more.
Have you looked at the southwest priority boarding or whatever it is called? You pay $10 or $15 (approximately) and then you're automatically in the a-zone, and in fact I believe it's in below A15
Martinjmpr
04-11-2017, 10:24
Eh, I think the key to happiness in airline travel (and really, in life) is to have realistic expectations. If you have unrealistic expectations, then life is going to kick your ass all over the place.
When I fly I expect delay, inconvenience, uncomfortable seats, lost luggage, etc. If those things don't happen, I'm pleasantly surprised but if they do it doesn't ruin my day.
Since I don't have to travel for work a lost bag or a delayed flight doesn't have a huge impact on me so I guess I can afford to be more cavalier about the whole thing.
clodhopper
04-11-2017, 10:28
Have you looked at the southwest priority boarding or whatever it is called? You pay $10 or $15 (approximately) and then you're automatically in the a-zone, and in fact I believe it's in below A15
I have not. It became clear to me that you can buy your way up the ladder on seating and I chose to opt out. Too much a pay to play, boost earnings per seat with minor fees, type of crap. That rankles me, and United seems to do less of it than others. I truly hate the "oooh $79 round trip ticket, but there is a fee for the seat, and another for the seatbelt, etc etc " and the next thing you know, that $79 Frontier ticket costs more than United. I admit I haven't looked much at pricing for Southwest as I have tended to avoid them based on the seating policy. But, I will check them out next flight.
I am sometimes on a short schedule and arrive at the gate near the end of boarding. At those times, I like the ability to select my seat when I purchase a ticket.
clodhopper
04-11-2017, 10:35
Eh, I think the key to happiness in airline travel (and really, in life) is to have realistic expectations. If you have unrealistic expectations, then life is going to kick your ass all over the place.
When I fly I expect delay, inconvenience, uncomfortable seats, lost luggage, etc. If those things don't happen, I'm pleasantly surprised but if they do it doesn't ruin my day.
Since I don't have to travel for work a lost bag or a delayed flight doesn't have a huge impact on me so I guess I can afford to be more cavalier about the whole thing.
Pretty much. The only time delays bother me is on the way TO my destination. Coming home they can fook around all they want and it wont rip me up much at all. I don't expect to be treated like a celebrity. I bought a seat, asking nothing more, glass of water is a nice bonus. Lost my luggage? meh, all my critical stuff is in my pack with me on the plane, so just deliver it to my house. Best flight to cancel is the one leaving home, cause then I can just go back to my car and head home. I hate getting my second leg cancelled cause I have no where to go. (Newark and I have a longstanding hate relationship).
Martinjmpr
04-11-2017, 10:52
Sounds like United Airlines is having a real Monday today.
I would guess this will blow over as soon as the next Outrage Of The Day hits the intertoobz.
People who book flights are still going to use the various search engines and if the Delta or Frontier flight is $100 more than United, do you really think they'll say "ooh, but United was so mean to that one guy, I'd rather pay an extra hundred bucks?"
Yeah, me neither.
http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/58ec7dec4f04b_ag2FFx7-png__700.jpg
http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/united-airlines-internet-reactions-6.gif
http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/851452978104082434-png__700.jpg
New Photo Of United Airlines Asking For Volunteers To Deplane (http://www.boredpanda.com/new-photo-of-united-airlines-asking-for-volunteers-to-deplane/)
http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/58ec7d978b056_lY6hSv8__700.jpg
JohnnyDrama
04-11-2017, 12:37
Y'all are cracking me up.
I bet there is a lot more to this story.
The media is just telling one side to make it more interesting news. Shocking I know.
That said, too many years of being a crew member have soured me on flying commercial. It is a last resort for me.
I bet there is a lot more to this story.
The media is just telling one side to make it more interesting news. Shocking I know.
That said, too many years of being a crew member have soured me on flying commercial. It is a last resort for me.
Is it because they don't let you walk around, lean out the doors, and take a poo in the jump seat? :D
JohnnyDrama
04-11-2017, 12:48
In other news.... TSA took my Eat'n Tool while flying out of Tulsa last week.
70075
Said it could be used as a self-defense weapon.
When sporks are outlawed, only outlaws....
In other news.... TSA took my Eat'n Tool while flying out of Tulsa last week.
70075
Said it could be used as a self-defense weapon.
When sporks are outlawed, only outlaws....
I bet the .fed yokel was just so enamored by Oregonian technology. Such a device beats messy fingers any day.
....Said it could be used as a self-defense weapon....
Heaven forbid you be able to defend yourself, if need be. Gots to protect their own.
Details aren't important...
It's all about "my rights" and "what I get" in this thread...
Or its about being complacent and taking it in the ass.
clodhopper
04-11-2017, 12:59
https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/17855305_1554606411250475_6443961841868193919_o.jp g?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=72d0c1a3d4bdf6350dbb37f2f6c2a67a&oe=595BB795
Heaven forbid you be able to defend yourself, if need be. Gots to protect their own.
In case they try to take you off the plane by force, not that it would ever happen, right? :D I see why they took it...
https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/17855305_1554606411250475_6443961841868193919_o.jp g?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=72d0c1a3d4bdf6350dbb37f2f6c2a67a&oe=595BB795
OUCH. That's rough. But it did make me chuckle.
BushMasterBoy
04-11-2017, 13:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RL6b-QgceE
In other news.... TSA took my Eat'n Tool while flying out of Tulsa last week.
70075
Said it could be used as a self-defense weapon.
When sporks are outlawed, only outlaws....
What a dumb shit. No one is defending themselves into control of an airplane.
I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to be the employee that has to take the seat of that guy that just got dragged off the plane, regardless of all the details of the event.
http://jumpseatnews.com/2017/4/standing-by-united-airlines
Standing by United Airlines 100%
Let's cut through the social media nonsense regarding the United Airlines incident.
United is a great company that's working very hard to ensure that passengers get from point A to point B safely and with as much comfort as possible. Are they perfect? Heavens no, but none of the airlines are. Yes, what happened to that passenger turned into an unfortunate situation, but it didn't have to end out that way. It was all up to him. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences.
Let's break some things down:
#1 – When you are asked by official airline personnel to get off an airplane, you do so. Period. End of story. You can complain/sue/whine/fight-the-power after you get off the plane. This passenger was first approached by United representatives who told him nicely and apologetically that he was being denied boarding. He was one of four people assigned by United to be involuntarily bumped from the flight. He responded by raising his voice and refusing to comply with instructions.
He was asked again, and again…and then again. Each time, he refused to comply with the request from airport officials. And I don't give a shit that he was a doctor. When asked onboard an aircraft to comply with instructions, you do so. You are not more or less important than anyone else.
Finally, not one, not two, but three officials from Chicago Department of Aviation were called to assist in getting this passenger to comply. He refused. Clearly, he felt he was more important than the rules, the other passengers, their schedules, and the operation of not only that flight, but the connecting flights and passengers out of SDF.
You see kids, when told by multiple airport officials to exit an aircraft, you do so. Kind of like when you see these little blue/red lights things flashing right behind you – you ought to pull your car over instead of speeding up and continuing to drive away from the police. How hard is it to do what you are told? Unless you were in a coma on 9/11/2001, you ought to know from that point forward that thumbing your nose at the request of aviation officials is not a good idea and never ends well.
#2 – The overbooking issue is nothing more than airlines responding to human nature. People often don't show up for flights. You want your airfares to stay cheap? Then be ok with airlines practicing rebooking and your agreement (an agreement that you make when you buy your ticket) to possibly be bumped from a flight – particularly if a crew is needed to be transported to ensure further operations downstream don't get cancelled and affect hundreds of other fliers. In 2015, 46,000 people were "involuntarily denied boarding" by major airlines. It sucks and it does happen. But United only ranks in the middle of U.S. carriers when it comes to bumping passengers – so stop picking just on them. That said, it would be interesting to see if airlines end up coming out with a special higher premium fare in the future that absolutely guarantees a seat no matter what.
#3 – I'm glad Chicago Aviation Security officers physically removed this passenger from the flight when he refused to get off. Very glad – mostly for the safety of the other passengers and crew. The aircraft flying from ORD to SDF was an Embraer E170. It's a regional jet that has about 80 seats, which means that it's a small, enclosed space inside a metal tube. There's not much room in the aisles, nor ability to easily maneuver around. Things could get ugly quickly. And worse after takeoff when there's no place to go.
The most important responsibility of the aviation officers (and United for that matter) is to ensure the safety of everyone else onboard when you have a passenger refusing to comply with crewmember or personnel instructions. You don't screw around with this. Nobody could quickly get inside his mind and know what he was thinking or his true mental state. For all we know, he could have thrown a physical fit, grabbed at and gouged out the eyes of another passenger. He could have twisted and snapped the neck of a child nearby. Or, maybe he would have just sat there and played Pokémon Go until landing (though that would have been difficult). Who knows? There are 100 different scenarios that must have flashed through the minds of the aviation officials in milliseconds. He could have done any number of things, and since he was refusing and ended up screeching/throwing a toddler tantrum, who knows where this would have led or what was lurking inside his mind. The officers were doing their job and taking his unpredictability and noncompliance very seriously, as well as the safety of everyone else around them as priority. Good for them.
I've been publishing on this site for 17 years. I've written hundreds of articles, and many of them have poked fun at United. From time to time, I've called them out on bad or stupid decisions. I even created a screw-o-meter to gauge certain United actions over the years.
Nevertheless, United Airlines did absolutely nothing wrong. When you have a disruptive and belligerent passenger refusing to follow crewmember/official instructions, you have a problem. A major problem. Better to solve it before the aircraft leaves the ground.
Good for CEO Oscar Munoz for his statement today, as well as standing behind the hardworking employees who are now taking a bulk of this social media bullshit (posted by irresponsible people with few facts of the incident).
Again, what happened to that passenger turned into an unfortunate situation, but it didn't have to end out that way. It was all up to him. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences.
Oscar, I don't know about everyone else, but you made me prouder than ever of United Airlines in the manner with which you addressed this difficult situation. Any regular reader of JSN knows that I don't say this lightly.
--- Christopher
That said, too many years of being a crew member have soured me on flying commercial. It is a last resort for me.
You're used to planes that have swimming pools, talk about spoiled!
O2
Meh, pretty dumb article.
BushMasterBoy
04-11-2017, 18:21
Meh, pretty dumb article.
Yeah and they blocked the comments. Wtf...the comments are the best part of stupid troll op-eds.
Meh, pretty dumb article.
Agreed. I think the backlash from this is deserved.
Part of the problem is that some airline employees seem to have become drunk with authority. "If you even look at me sideways, it's a Federal offense."
Madeinhb
04-11-2017, 18:24
I have not. It became clear to me that you can buy your way up the ladder on seating and I chose to opt out. Too much a pay to play, boost earnings per seat with minor fees, type of crap. That rankles me, and United seems to do less of it than others. I truly hate the "oooh $79 round trip ticket, but there is a fee for the seat, and another for the seatbelt, etc etc " and the next thing you know, that $79 Frontier ticket costs more than United. I admit I haven't looked much at pricing for Southwest as I have tended to avoid them based on the seating policy. But, I will check them out next flight.
I am sometimes on a short schedule and arrive at the gate near the end of boarding. At those times, I like the ability to select my seat when I purchase a ticket.
I only fly Frontier if it's a weekend trip and I pack my clothes in a backpack that fits under the seat. Then no baggage fees.
Aloha_Shooter
04-11-2017, 20:26
I fly United a lot. I've generally had good experiences with them. The few times I have had bad experiences, it's generally been for circumstances beyond their control (like the ground controllers at DIA pushing every plane around to the other end of the runway after a major snowstorm). I'm sure there's more to the story. Munoz's email to the employees read like he was trying to keep morale in the company up -- it definitely wasn't intended for public release.
I hate the way they use the phrase "denied boarding" - yeah, that would be one thing if he was stopped FROM boarding but the guy was already seated. He wasn't "denied boarding", he was being deboarded involuntarily. Having said that, if the "staff" that they were trying to put on the flight were crew for follow-on flights, there would have been rolling impacts in not getting them down there that would have affected a lot more people so I understand the airline's urgency in trying to get them down there.
I suspect -- as with so many stories -- we'll find out more details later that make the whole thing less cut-and-dried.
United Promised Regulators Ticketed Passengers Are Guaranteed Seats (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/united-promised-regulators-ticketed-passengers-are-guaranteed-seats/ar-BBzJLPS?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp)
Less than three years before a passenger was forcibly removed from one of its aircrafts, United Airlines assured federal regulators that all ticketed passengers are guaranteed seats on flights. The promise was delivered in federal filings reviewed by International Business Times.
In September 2014 comments to federal officials, the Chicago-based airline outlined its opposition to proposed rules that sought more disclosure of the fees airlines charge to customers. One of the rules at issue was designed to compel airlines to more explicitly disclose fees charged for reserving specific seats.
“Including advance-seat-assignment charges among the ‘basic ancillary service’ fees that must be disclosed as part of initial fare displays makes no sense,” the airline wrote to the Department of Transportation. “Every ticket, of course, guarantees a passenger a seat on the plane, with no additional mandatory seat-assignment charges."
Later in the filing, United Airlines expanded on its promise to regulators that it guarantees every ticketed passenger a seat.
“Importantly, every passenger who buys a ticket on a United flight or a flight on any of United’s partners or competitors in the United States will be assigned a seat at no additional charge (though in some cases this will still happen at the gate),” the airline wrote. “Therefore, the rule does not need to prescribe how carriers must disclose charges concerning advance seat assignments because passengers need not purchase this service to receive a seat assignment.”
United has faced withering criticism—and calls for a congressional investigation—after video surfaced of a passenger being forcibly removed from a flight from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky. United issued a statement saying its flight was “overbooked” and asserting that “after our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.”
The company’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, later apologized for having to "re-accommodate these customers.”
Federal rules do not prohibit airlines from overbooking flights. Despite United's assurance to federal regulators in 2014 that it guarantees seats for all ticketed passengers, the fine print of the airline’s “contract of carriage” agreement on its tickets says the company retains a right to bump passengers off flights for myriad reasons.
Did anyone think of Peter, Paul & Mary, 'Bleeding on a jet plane'?
I fly United a lot. I've generally had good experiences with them. The few times I have had bad experiences, it's generally been for circumstances beyond their control (like the ground controllers at DIA pushing every plane around to the other end of the runway after a major snowstorm). I'm sure there's more to the story. Munoz's email to the employees read like he was trying to keep morale in the company up -- it definitely wasn't intended for public release.
I hate the way they use the phrase "denied boarding" - yeah, that would be one thing if he was stopped FROM boarding but the guy was already seated. He wasn't "denied boarding", he was being deboarded involuntarily. Having said that, if the "staff" that they were trying to put on the flight were crew for follow-on flights, there would have been rolling impacts in not getting them down there that would have affected a lot more people so I understand the airline's urgency in trying to get them down there.
I suspect -- as with so many stories -- we'll find out more details later that make the whole thing less cut-and-dried.
Good point, always more to the story.
http://newsthump.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-confirms-that-beatings-will-continue-until-volunteering-improves/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork
United Airlines confirms that beatings will continue until volunteering improves
DireWolf
04-11-2017, 21:44
I also fly United alot, and while most of the time it's been a positive experience (even the occasional complimentary upgrade to 1st), there have been a few ugly experiences, including my aforementioned sucessful impulse control to keep from rearanging the bone structure of several prissy pissy "I am the law!" (male) flight attendants....
That's the issue. If there's no imminent threat or security issue, they (airline attendants, crew, etc.) need to realize that they ARE NOT law enforcement officers, they cannot summarily make up their own rules, they are just uniformed customer service representatives, need to conduct themselves accordingly (e.g. back down and shut the fuck up)...The way I figure, this type of thing could have got someone killed if they tried pulling it on the wrong person on the wrong day....
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
This guy apparently has an odd history.
United passenger who was dragged from plane says he's still in the hospital (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-passenger-who-was-dragged-from-plane-says-hes-still-in-the-hospital/ar-BBzJGyY?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp)
David Dao, a Kentucky physician who touched off a national debate over airline overbooking policies this week when he was dragged off a United Airlines flight, was still recovering in the hospital Tuesday after suffering injuries from the incident, according to a Kentucky television station that spoke to him.
Dao told WLKY-TV that he was not doing well and that he was still in a hospital in Chicago. When asked what his injuries were, he said "everything," the station reported.
On Sunday, Dao had boarded a United flight from Chicago to Louisville that the airline had overbooked. When flight staff chose four passengers to get off the plane to make room for United employees, Dao refused, saying that he was a doctor who needed to go back home to see patients.
The airline summoned security officers, who dragged a shrieking Dao out of his seat and off the plane. Footage of the incident, taken by passengers, many of whom were distraught over Dao's treatment, later showed Dao with a bloody face.
The incident has sparked criticism of United Airlines' handling of the incident. United Chief Executive Oscar Munoz initially said Dao, whom the airline did not publicly identify, was "disruptive and belligerent" when airline employees told him he would have to relinquish his seat because the flight was overbooked.
But as criticism mounted on Tuesday, Munoz issued another statement saying Dao had been "mistreated" and added, "I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard."
Little is known about Dao or why he was so adamant about remaining on the flight, leading news organizations to probe his history. The Louisville Courier-Journal and other news organizations reported Monday that Dao had previously been convicted of six felonies related to his medical practice in 2004, in which he was accused of illegally prescribing painkillers to a patient in exchange for sex.
He was given five years of supervised probation.
Dao surrendered his medical license in 2005, and applied for reinstatement, telling regulators it was a matter of "family honor." In a 2014 letter, his attorney described Dao as "a grandfather, an active participant in his local church" who supports an organization that helps the homeless in his community, Elizabethtown, Ky.
According to publicly available state licensing records reviewed by the Los Angeles Times, Dao has a history of mental health problems, including depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder, for which he has received treatment. A 2011 psychological evaluation of Dao concluded that he "lacked the foundation to navigate difficult situations, both inter-personally and in a complex profession."
That evaluation also said Dao has struggled with "poor decision-making" and a "lack of awareness around his personality and relational issues." The records said Dao had been previously cited by a hospital in the 2000s for "disruptive conduct" and was ordered to seek evaluation for "anger management" issues. In 2002, another doctor wrote that Dao sometimes "unilaterally chose to do his own thing."
But another psychological evaluation administered in 2013 concluded that Dao "emotionally was free of debilitating anxiety, depression, or psychological turmoil to the extent that it would affect his ability to function in activities of daily living or manage the practice of medicine."
Regulators cleared Dao to return to medical practice in 2015, in which he was initially restricted to working one day a week, supervised by another doctor.
The Times has been unable to reach Dao for his version of events.
The Chicago Department of Aviation suspended a security officer involved in the incident, the handling of which "was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure," the department said in a statement.
The department did not respond to The Times' requests for the officer's name and service history.
Dr. Deranged.
Proof he is looney tunes if you ask me.
This guy apparently has an odd history.
United passenger who was dragged from plane says he's still in the hospital (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-passenger-who-was-dragged-from-plane-says-hes-still-in-the-hospital/ar-BBzJGyY?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp)
Nice find.
Now his POTENTIAL civil settlement just had a HUGE haircut. lol
Dr. Deranged.
Proof he is looney tunes if you ask me.
Which is exactly why they fish for volunteers first.
Nice find.
Now his POTENTIAL civil settlement just had a HUGE haircut. lol
Unlikely, not relevant to the action at hand if he had a clean bill of health so to speak. United will not likely be able to use it.
Doubt this one will see the light of day in court.
ColoradoTJ
04-12-2017, 00:07
70082
Unlikely, not relevant to the action at hand if he had a clean bill of health so to speak. United will not likely be able to use it.
Doubt this one will see the light of day in court.
This.
Another article
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html
This was United’s real mistake
Rick Newman
Columnist
Yahoo Finance April 11, 2017
Comment
Will a viral video sink United Airlines?
Was United legally justified when it forcibly dragged a paying passenger off a plane in Chicago on April 9? The airline seems to think so, but it may come down to whether the company complied with government rules on what airlines must do when passengers are involuntarily bumped.
The Transportation Department says airlines must “give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t.” There’s no evidence United did that. In an internal email published by the Associated Press, United CEO Oscar Munoz said company employees “followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation).” But he didn’t say whether those employees followed government rules, including issuing the written statement and giving an explanation for why a given passenger was singled out for bumping.
United’s Rule 25
Rule 25 of United’s “contract of carriage”—which is basically the legal fine print governing passenger flights—contains detailed procedures for how to handle overbooked flights on which passengers need to be bumped, either voluntarily or involuntarily. But there’s no mention of a written statement or an explanation offered to passengers who are bumped against their will. So unless there are other United procedures that aren’t public, the carrier’s official policy seems to exclude what the government requires.
Passenger David Dao was dragged off an overbooked United Airlines flight.
More
There’s another wrinkle. Rule 25 deals almost entirely with passengers denied boarding—in other words, people who never get on a plane. But in the Chicago incident, the passenger had already boarded when United employees told him he had to get off. Again, unless United has an unpublished policy dealing with this scenario, it’s not addressed in the contract of carriage. So even if United followed its own procedures, it would have violated government rules.
The whole incident seems to have arisen from an unusual situation unanticipated by the airline. United says the flight was already fully boarded when four crew members approached the gate, saying they needed to board the plane to get to Louisville, where the flight was headed, or else a subsequent United departure out of Louisville would have to be canceled. So United made the probably rational decision that it was cheaper to bump four passengers and pay them for their troubles, than to leave the crew members in Chicago and cancel a Louisville departure.
Where it went wrong
This is where the whole thing went wrong. Three passengers chosen by United—how, remains unclear—apparently accepted the airline’s offer and got off the plane. But the fourth passenger United selected didn’t agree to get off, which led to the forced ejection captured on video and now seen by hundreds of millions worldwide.
United says it offered “up to $1,000” to coax the four passengers off the plane peacefully. Obviously it didn’t offer enough. Fliers everywhere wonder why United didn’t just keep raising its offer until somebody raised their hand. United hasn’t said why, but it may have had something to do with the flight running late and crew members feeling rushed. Still, summoning security in a situation that could have been defused peacefully for a few extra bucks, will surely go down as one of the most obtuse corporate decisions in years.
Bad publicity following the incident has pushed the company’s stock price down a couple percentage points and shaved more than $500 million off the carrier’s market value. Lawsuits seem certain, as well. The whole thing might blow over, if Munoz, who initially called the bumped passenger “disruptive and belligerent,” can muster a heartfelt apology and do something to act like he cares about customers. The lesson for now, however, is don’t ever do something this stupid in your own business.
Scanker19
04-12-2017, 06:48
$1000? That sounds like a rental car, gas, a hotel and a new glock if you ask me.
DireWolf
04-12-2017, 07:14
$1000? That sounds like a rental car, gas, a hotel and a new glock if you ask me.
No cash, just a stinking, time-limited (and mostly useless to some people) voucher...
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
Martinjmpr
04-12-2017, 08:51
Who else caught this?
The Louisville Courier-Journal and other news organizations reported Monday that Dao had previously been convicted of six felonies related to his medical practice in 2004, in which he was accused of illegally prescribing painkillers to a patient in exchange for sex.
Maybe the real issue was that United Airlines didn't offer him his preferred form of "compensation" in exchange for being bumped. ;)
clodhopper
04-12-2017, 08:53
$1000? That sounds like a rental car, gas, a hotel and a new glock if you ask me.
I have had this situation several times, and each time the last minute one-way car rental was most if not all of that $1000. Once it was under $400 for a half day, one-way use. It is usually a "cool I can take my wife somewhere later this year, but I will be sitting here in this airport until tomorrow" situation.
clodhopper
04-12-2017, 08:57
I hate the way they use the phrase "denied boarding" - yeah, that would be one thing if he was stopped FROM boarding but the guy was already seated. He wasn't "denied boarding", he was being deboarded involuntarily. Having said that, if the "staff" that they were trying to put on the flight were crew for follow-on flights, there would have been rolling impacts in not getting them down there that would have affected a lot more people so I understand the airline's urgency in trying to get them down there.
The term boarding has broad interpretation. For airlines it is generally applied to the whole process of loading passengers on the plane prior to takeoff. It is not the limit line of actually stepping on the plane and yelling "safe!". Even if you are on the plane, sitting and buckled, until they close the door everyone is still boarding. I wouldn't be surprised if it extended until wheels up such that a return to the gate to eject a passenger would still be considered boarding denial.
Martinjmpr
04-12-2017, 09:02
Nice find.
Now his POTENTIAL civil settlement just had a HUGE haircut. lol
Who would he even sue though? And for what?
I haven't watched the whole video but if he suffered injuries wasn't it at the hands of the police, and not United? Which means he would have to sue the police - who of course have qualified immunity.
Unless United just wants to pay him "hush money" to go away I don't see that anything they did was actionable. If the rules allow them to bump passengers then they are allowed to bump passengers and their liability is limited to paying whatever the statutorily required amount is.
A "police brutality" (Section 1983) claim against the PD is always possible, I suppose, but I don't see United being a part of that.
Who would he even sue though? I haven't watched the whole video but if he suffered injuries wasn't it at the hands of the police, and not United? Which means he would have to sue the police - who of course have qualified immunity.
Unless United just wants to pay him "hush money" to go away I don't see that anything they did was actionable. If the rules allow them to bump passengers then they are allowed to bump passengers and their liability is limited to paying whatever the statutorily required amount is.
A "police brutality" (Section 1983) claim against the PD is always possible, I suppose, but I don't see United being a part of that.
Was it police or airport rent-a-cops?
Martinjmpr
04-12-2017, 09:26
Was it police or airport rent-a-cops?
Do they even have those anymore? I would think that if a job requires putting hands on people then most likely it would be actual, sworn police officers. Either Chicago PD, Transit Cops, TSA or Air Marshals.
Do they even have those anymore? I would think that if a job requires putting hands on people then most likely it would be actual, sworn police officers. Either Chicago PD, Transit Cops, TSA or Air Marshals.
Chicago Department of Aviation security officers, whatever the hell those are...
http://kfor.com/2017/04/11/security-officer-suspended-ceo-responds-after-disturbing-scene-on-united-flight/
Do they even have those anymore? I would think that if a job requires putting hands on people then most likely it would be actual, sworn police officers. Either Chicago PD, Transit Cops, TSA or Air Marshals.
Chicago Department of Aviation security officers
Aloha_Shooter
04-12-2017, 09:38
The term boarding has broad interpretation. For airlines it is generally applied to the whole process of loading passengers on the plane prior to takeoff. It is not the limit line of actually stepping on the plane and yelling "safe!". Even if you are on the plane, sitting and buckled, until they close the door everyone is still boarding. I wouldn't be surprised if it extended until wheels up such that a return to the gate to eject a passenger would still be considered boarding denial.
Oh, I know that's how the airline is interpreting it but any reasonable person with a comprehension of the English language would say he had already boarded when they let him set foot on the plane. His past history does seem to explain his reaction with the shrieking when the cops came to get him as well as his persistent reboarding and "just kill me now" mantra so I don't think it's totally irrelevant. I also think it's important that it was Chicago PD that forcibly pulled him off -- yes, United (or Republic) called for them but Chicago LEO has a reputation for doing things "the Chicago Way."
I suspect the reason United didn't offer even more to get someone to leave voluntarily is that they are worried about setting a new high bar for the future across all overbooked flights ("are you kidding? $250? I'm not giving up my seat until they offer me $2000.") but it still would have been better to quietly try to get another volunteer with higher compensation than get the PR blackeye they're suffering today.
He was convicted for trading opiates for gay sex.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Seems to be quite the nutter. Soon to be a rich nutter who will no doubt lose the settlement money in some spectacularly odd action.
Apparently, you have to have LEO certification in that job...
https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=4d72af56fae04844&from=serp
Martinjmpr
04-12-2017, 09:52
Chicago Department of Aviation security officers
Apparently, you have to have LEO certification in that job...
https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=4d72af56fae04844&from=serp
Makes sense. Outside of maybe a bar or a nightclub anybody whose job it is to put people in handcuffs is likely going to be a sworn LEO. Sworn LEO = qualified immunity.
Doesn't mean they can't be sued, but it means the burden of proof will be higher. And I don't see how UA can be held liable for the actions of a sworn LEO.
Good article considering the distinction between "Denied Boarding Compensation" and "Refusal to Transport."
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united-cites-wrong-rule-for-illegally-de-boarding-passenger/
Good article considering the distinction between "Denied Boarding Compensation" and "Refusal to Transport."
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united-cites-wrong-rule-for-illegally-de-boarding-passenger/
And... would a cop really have qualified immunity in the (thus) illegal enforcement of illegal activity on the part of the airline?
Maybe the real issue was that United Airlines didn't offer him his preferred form of "compensation" in exchange for being bumped. ;)
Oh, wow, that's funny right there! [LOL]
clodhopper
04-12-2017, 12:59
I suspect the reason United didn't offer even more to get someone to leave voluntarily is that they are worried about setting a new high bar for the future across all overbooked flights ("are you kidding? $250? I'm not giving up my seat until they offer me $2000.") but it still would have been better to quietly try to get another volunteer with higher compensation than get the PR blackeye they're suffering today.
My understanding is they had reached the approved compensation cap that could be offered. The facility staff couldn't raise it anymore. Makes sense that the gate staff is limited so they don't get out of hand with crazy high compensation packages. Hindsight suggests a higher level manager be contacted to exceed the local cap, but of course at the time who knew the guy wouldn't comply, and once the cops were called to escort him, it was out of the airline's hands.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/United%20Boarding%20Policy_zpsr4jwrey2.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/United%20Boarding%20Policy_zpsr4jwrey2.jpg.html)
Great-Kazoo
04-12-2017, 15:54
Makes sense. Outside of maybe a bar or a nightclub anybody whose job it is to put people in handcuffs is likely going to be a sworn LEO. Sworn LEO = qualified immunity.
Doesn't mean they can't be sued, but it means the burden of proof will be higher. And I don't see how UA can be held liable for the actions of a sworn LEO.
Internet Hysterics. It's replaced jackson & sharpton , as the new bomb throwers of the 21st century
Kinda of like that HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT bullshit, that spurred who knows how many snowflake attacks on LE and lighter skinned folk..
Which is IMO another reason HRC lost. Her pandering to the BLM / St Swisher's mom at a rally. Embracing BLM put more voters off.
RblDiver
04-12-2017, 17:00
http://jumpseatnews.com/2017/4/standing-by-united-airlines
"Nobody could quickly get inside his mind and know what he was thinking or his true mental state. For all we know, he could have thrown a physical fit, grabbed at and gouged out the eyes of another passenger."
Now, turn that to "Nobody could quickly get inside the mind of a guy with a gun in its holster on his hip. For all we know, he could have thrown a physical fit, pulled out the gun and shot another bystander."
Did the guy do everything right? No, but United did a hell of a lot terribly.
I have kinfolk that work for United. I'll have to give them some grief next time I see them.
I have kinfolk that work for United. I'll have to give them some grief next time I see them.
It doesn't work that way. They give the grief and you get to take it.
BushMasterBoy
04-12-2017, 18:01
70090
Aloha_Shooter
04-12-2017, 21:26
"Nobody could quickly get inside his mind and know what he was thinking or his true mental state. For all we know, he could have thrown a physical fit, grabbed at and gouged out the eyes of another passenger."
Now, turn that to "Nobody could quickly get inside the mind of a guy with a gun in its holster on his hip. For all we know, he could have thrown a physical fit, pulled out the gun and shot another bystander."
Did the guy do everything right? No, but United did a hell of a lot terribly.
Oh c'mon, that's utter nonsense. I think the aviation security officers seem to have gone overboard but all Republic/United did was attempt to get volunteers and then deboard (NOT deny boarding) randomly selected passengers in order to get a crew to the next stop. You have a guy with a history of PTSD and "episodes" who was clearly acting out emotionally (and possibly more than that from the wail he let out on the viral video). The aviation security officers were NOT beating him -- dragging him was poor optics but at that point he wasn't taking any more damage and they were getting him off the plane ASAP so it could finish boarding and departure procedures.
Munoz's first email to his employees was clearly intended to bolster the morale inside the company and his public statements were guarded but while I think there were things they could have done better, I completely disagree that they did a lot terribly. Dr. Dao on the other hand was an unfortunate victim who did everything wrong he possibly could have.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/2a4c341383654e251ff282eba183940e.jpg
Didn't Doctor Deranged reboard after they took him off/denied boarding the first time?
They always seem to leave that part out.
Maybe could have been handled better. Oh well. It wasn't United proper, but a contractor. It wasn't United staff that pulled the guy out of the seat, it was the PD. Interesting that neither Republic nor the PD are getting pounded over this.
Republic operated the flight but has no airport staff. The gate agents, ticket agents, rampers, CRO's, booking software, boarding polices, and decisions were all UAL's.
The only Republic staff associated with that were the flight crews and i can tell you from experience that the crew being moved probably didn't care if they got on that flight or not. Their FAR 117 flight/duty time limitations probably necessitated the bumping of the passengers but they just get a dead head assignment from crew scheduling and the gate agent handles it (or doesn't). Same for the crew operating the flight. The gate agent facilitates boarding. There is some authority there for the captain but with the door open and law enforcement onboard there's really not much the crew should do at that point. I've had numerous people removed from flights for various reasons and all I do is tell the gate agent how many and to let me know when it's done.
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
KevDen2005
04-12-2017, 22:57
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
Best post of the entire thread.
I read all the entire thread as well. It seems this matter was a little more touchy than I would have expected
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
Okay, but how does any of that excuse United "volunteering" a paying customer to give up their seat so some United employees can get a free ride to a city 4 hours away by car, so they can be on a flight in another 20 hours? And then when the tribute refused, United sicked the airport cops on him, who then gave him a concussion and dragged him off the flight, where they apparently beat him some more?
Okay, but how does any of that excuse United "volunteering" a paying customer to give up their seat so some United employees can get a free ride to a city 4 hours away by car, so they can be on a flight in another 20 hours?
First of all, if UAL wants them in SDF then of course they're going to foot the bill. Second, there are several variables that affect the required rest period prior to beginning a new flight duty period. What time of day they're to report for duty, how many segments they'll fly, time zone crossing, rolling yearly, weekly, and daily limits, whether or not there previous rest period was reduced etc. And regulatory issues aside, there's likely a CBA that describes acceptable methods to move a crew.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck but a hundred other crew movements happened that day and likely that many bumped passengers as well. No one bled, screamed, and fainted or no one put it on Facebook though so those other events didn't make the news.
BushMasterBoy
04-13-2017, 00:55
The guy that was beat is still going to get way more money this year than most forum members.
Maybe we should also create a sub-thread
"Craziest things you saw at the Airport/Airplane."
I got so many stories.. :D
Bailey Guns
04-13-2017, 06:22
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
LIKE. Big F'n LIKE...
funkymonkey1111
04-13-2017, 06:38
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
Who gives a shit of what happens in the third world?
Scanker19
04-13-2017, 06:57
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
You're right, flying is not a right. However you do have rights when you enter into a contract. Which is what you do when you buy a ticket on a flying machine.
You're argument is saying that one is an entitled pussy if they chose to fight for their rights of a contract. If you paid me to fix your roof by a certain time and i didn't, would you be an entitled pussy for wanting it when I said I would?
I just fail to see the connection for expecting what you are entitled to in a contract and that making you an "entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining" person.
Because I should would hate to feel entitled...
C. No person will be entitled to transportation except upon presentation of a valid Ticket.
Oh that? That comes directly from the United Contract of Carriage.
Who gives a shit of what happens in the third world?
Yeah, we've got first world problems!
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
Utter horseshit.
I'll be back later when I have the time to elaborate.
Martinjmpr
04-13-2017, 07:58
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
[Beer]
Martinjmpr
04-13-2017, 08:10
You're right, flying is not a right. However you do have rights when you enter into a contract. Which is what you do when you buy a ticket on a flying machine.
You're argument is saying that one is an entitled pussy if they chose to fight for their rights of a contract. If you paid me to fix your roof by a certain time and i didn't, would you be an entitled pussy for wanting it when I said I would?
I just fail to see the connection for expecting what you are entitled to in a contract and that making you an "entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining" person.
Because I should would hate to feel entitled...
Oh that? That comes directly from the United Contract of Carriage.
The ticket he bought entitled him to have UA haul his butt from one place to another. Period.
It was not a guarantee that he would have THAT SPECIFIC SEAT on THAT SPECIFIC PLANE.
And if he had simply stayed off the plane after he had been removed, UA would have given him a ticket on another flight and sent him on his way: Since the SOLE obligation of UA was the get him to his destination, once he arrived, UA's part of the contract was fulfilled.
^ Denninger disagrees:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231976
..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/0e8e4c61a4126580e49e2388bcbd902f.jpg
theGinsue
04-13-2017, 09:11
You're right, flying is not a right. However you do have rights when you enter into a contract. Which is what you do when you buy a ticket on a flying machine.
You're argument is saying that one is an entitled pussy if they chose to fight for their rights of a contract. If you paid me to fix your roof by a certain time and i didn't, would you be an entitled pussy for wanting it when I said I would?
I just fail to see the connection for expecting what you are entitled to in a contract and that making you an "entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining" person.
Because I should would hate to feel entitled...
Oh that? That comes directly from the United Contract of Carriage.
^ Denninger disagrees:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231976
As someone who has been having to travel by air for work a lot these last couple of years (in fact, I just got in from Baltimore/Washington last night) I totally agree with everything in Scankers comment as well as the linked article.
Due to overbooking and other issues caused by the airline (ye, it was United) I was delayed a full day for a business trip and on the second day they were cancelling the flight. I had to get overseas to catch a flight that took over a month to coordinate and which were made only twice/week. My company built in a day and a half extra in case of problems. The second delay would have prevented my team from making the next flight. A lot of prodding and use of .gov authority got United to make other arrangements for us. It was a pain and shouldn't have come to that.
On the morning of our return flight to the states we were notified by United that our flight from Dallas to Colo Spr was cancelled. After being away for a month we were going to have to stay in Dallas overnight before we could get home. I used the hour I had to work with to get my company to rebook my return through American and was able to get home on time. Only 2 of us were able to do that, the rest had to keep their original flughts and stayed in Dallas at our companies expense.
On my recent trip, I flew into Baltimore/Washington airport where I was met by my boss (he was already out there). We then had to drive 3 hours to our destination which got us to our hotel @ 9pm. We had to meet the rest of our team at 0730 the next morning before we met up with others for significantly prior coordinated activities. A flight delay, particularly another full day delay, would have eliminated my being able to participate in what occured.
I can only think of 1 instance out of over a dozen where United didn't cancel or delay our flights. I prefer to fly American when I can these days. Even then, every flight I've taken these last couple of years has had full flights. Delays, overbooking, etc. only make the problem worse for passengers yet the airlines won't adjust or prepare for these events.
Now, for non-business "pleasure travel", if I spent $10k+ to take a week of vacation to take my family to Disney World and got delayed by a day then not only have I lost valuable vacation time but hard earned money to boot. While I know that the airlines have their standard disclaimers, when I enter into a contract with them for a price to provide a service at a certain time/place, once they accept my payment, so long as I live up to my end of the contract, they should be required to honor that contract - period.
Just my $.02 on the topic.
Martinjmpr
04-13-2017, 09:11
^ Denninger disagrees:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231976
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. [shrug]
He's free to start his own airline and institute whatever policies he wants.
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. [shrug]
He's free to start his own airline and institute whatever policies he wants.
What Denninger wants is simply for laws to be enforced... Airlines, Medical costs, etc. I bet you'd like him if you read his blog. He has a ton of business experience already, so it's not necessary for him to do what you say. He's already done it in other contexts.
Aloha_Shooter
04-13-2017, 09:20
^ Denninger disagrees:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231976
I really don't care what Denninger says. He gets referred to like his blog is written on stone tablets. It's not.
The good doctor's ticket carries rights spelled out in the Contract of Carriage which DOES give the operator some rights to deny him boarding. Where I draw the line on how they handled it was that they boarded him when they let him cross the gate threshold and get on the plane. I know they referred to "denying him boarding" when they first referenced this incident but they always talk about deboarding when they talk about having passengers get off the plane.
Had this been a case where the doctor was complaining about involuntary deboarding after he notified them about issues it creates in medical treatments for patients and he acted calmly and rationally, it would be one thing. The video that went viral didn't show any of the prior situation (as these videos rarely do) but it DID show him going into hysterics and struggling violently. That created an entirely different situation legally and either way, he didn't have an absolute right to that seat on that plane.
Denninger is probably one of the few people who is consistently right not only on actual law on the books but also the mathematical realities of this now failed economy and country. I don't agree with him on everything, but his facts aren't wrong. :shrug:
People in 3rd world countries just biting the bullet and putting up with terrible conditions is exactly what keeps them in a 3rd world country, and is exactly what keeps the country "3rd world." America was born out of an event where a few people decided that they didn't have to take a bite out of every single shit sandwich that live serves up to them. Being tough and resilient is great, until you're so tough, and so resilient that you put up with anything and never create a catalyst for change in your life.
How easy would it be to rewrite Molan Labe's post about people whinning about a 2% tax? There are a lot of contracts where the provider of services gets to write the contract to their advantage, insurance policies being the one most people are familiar with. That said, shitty conditions in contacts exist because everyone just puts up with them. While this particular passenger is no champion of anything I'm talking about, as it seems he threw a fit for different reasons, this event can lead to the population as a whole letting the industry know that they aren't happy with the way business is run. I don't think anything will happen to change, especially since there is a lot more to this than just contact wording, and everything will vote over and go back to normal. By no means is being dissatisfied with something a sign of weakness or being soft.
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2017, 09:25
Read the thread, saw the video clips, heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth. For a country built by rough men who sailed across high seas on leaky wooden ships we have sunk this low. What a bunch of whiny pussies.
1. No one forces anyone to fly.
2. Flying is NOT a right.
3. Last I checked private businesses still have rights.
4. Screw entitled scum bags.
5. We as a society are the most entitled, lazy, effeminate, whiny, complaining, mouth breathing bunch of ignoramus idjits this country has ever produced.
6. In [insert your favorite third world shit hole here] people walk barefoot for hours to get dirty water in 100 + degree heat to survive. Thousands of people are rounded up and killed because they said the wrong thing, or worshipped the wrong God. But in America the land of the free and the home of the brave we start sobbing because some entitled whiny fuck won't give up his seat. And books his stupid face on a stupid seat. Get over yourself.
End Rant.
Thanks..cannot say it any better.
I am not sure why we are discussing this with so much passion while little Kim and bastard Assad are still out there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks..cannot say it any better.
I am not sure why we are discussing this with so much passion while little Kim and bastard Assad are still out there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Probably because the police state is more of a threat to America than Bashar Al Assad, who could have been a great ally in the fight we supposedly are in (but finance and train the actual enemy).
I digress...
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2017, 09:36
Probably because the police state is more of a threat to America than Bashar Al Assad, who could have been a great ally in the fight we supposedly are in (but finance and train the actual enemy).
I digress...
That's funny. I have been to Egypt, China, Singapore, Indonesia and soon Cuba.. where this kind of discussion will result in fine or jail time.
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Aloha_Shooter
04-13-2017, 09:36
As someone who has been having to travel by air for work a lot these last couple of years (in fact, I just got in from Baltimore/Washington last night) I totally agree with everything in Scankers comment as well as the linked article.
Due to overbooking and other issues caused by the airline (ye, it was United) I was delayed a full day for a business trip and on the second day they were cancelling the flight. I had to get overseas to catch a flight that took over a month to coordinate and which were made only twice/week. My company built in a day and a half extra in case of problems. The second delay would have prevented my team from making the next flight. A lot of prodding and use of .gov authority got United to make other arrangements for us. It was a pain and shouldn't have come to that.
On the morning of our return flight to the states we were notified by United that our flight from Dallas to Colo Spr was cancelled. After being away for a month we were going to have to stay in Dallas overnight before we could get home. I used the hour I had to work with to get my company to rebook my return through American and was able to get home on time. Only 2 of us were able to do that, the rest had to keep their original flughts and stayed in Dallas at our companies expense.
On my recent trip, I flew into Baltimore/Washington airport where I was met by my boss (he was already out there). We then had to drive 3 hours to our destination which got us to our hotel @ 9pm. We had to meet the rest of our team at 0730 the next morning before we met up with others for significantly prior coordinated activities. A flight delay, particularly another full day delay, would have eliminated my being able to participate in what occured.
I can only think of 1 instance out of over a dozen where United didn't cancel or delay our flights. I prefer to fly American when I can these days. Even then, every flight I've taken these last couple of years has had full flights. Delays, overbooking, etc. only make the problem worse for passengers yet the airlines won't adjust or prepare for these events.
Now, for non-business "pleasure travel", if I spent $10k+ to take a week of vacation to take my family to Disney World and got delayed by a day then not only have I lost valuable vacation time but hard earned money to boot. While I know that the airlines have their standard disclaimers, when I enter into a contract with them for a price to provide a service at a certain time/place, once they accept my payment, so long as I live up to my end of the contract, they should be required to honor that contract - period.
Just my $.02 on the topic.
I travel quite a bit too -- for both business and pleasure -- and usually go on United. In counterpoint, I would estimate that my flights on United have been delayed at MOST 25% of the time and most of those delays were due to weather. I haven't had a flight cancellation on United for several years. The closest I came to that was a trip I took to Sumatra a couple years ago where the smoke from illegal fires caused flight cancellations for 2 days across 4 airports -- including my day of departure. Because I was a no-show for the United flight from Singapore (Silk Air only took care of getting me from Sumatra to Singapore the following day), United made my ticket invalid and the only way to fix it would have been to leave the airport to go to their ticket counter. Going through customs and entering the country just to talk to the Ticketing counter and then coming back through Security to "leave" the country was a non-starter for a variety of reasons.
Instead, I got ahold of a United agent in Chicago who got me out on the next flight about 90 minutes later. They worked the coordination with Silk Air to get my bags and gave me the baggage info on the plane as they were already boarding when I got to the gate. No additional charges since I had documentation that the change was due to circumstances beyond my control but the agent really busted arse to get me home (as opposed to the Singapore Airlines counter agent detailed as their out-of-hours rep who couldn't be bothered to do anything other than tell me to go outside the airport to talk to Ticketing).
By the way, I had similar good service from them in rebooking when we had the Snowmageddon in 2006 that shut down Colorado airports just before Christmas. The fare had been sold by US Air but was being flown by United -- US Air left me hanging while the United agent I talked to understood the situation, got her supervisor on the phone along with the US Air agent and HIS supervisor and worked it all out. I had figured I was going to miss Christmas and just wanted to let my mother know what day to pick me up, United got me out the very next day.
They are far from perfect but they are also nowhere near the villains I'm seeing in the press and on the Internet today.
Let's play a game...
Dr. Dao is instead LCpl Smith, hot off the bird from Astan. New baby he hasn't seen. 14 days, use it or lose it. Being delayed puts him a whole day away from family due to the scheduling of picking him up from the airport. He wants to get home ASAP. He gets bumped involuntarily.
Fuck that guy, right? Pound sand, Lance coolie... you have no RIGHT to fly and no one GUARANTEED you shit.
I bet there'd be righteous outrage.
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2017, 09:39
LCpl Smith would have got up like 99.99999% of us. End of story.
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KevDen2005
04-13-2017, 09:41
LCpl Smith would have got up like 99.99999% of us. End of story.
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Have to agree. LCpl Smith is a disciplined law abiding citizen who isn't going to get into it with anyone. He wants to see his family but won't cause a scene. He doesn't feel entitled to anything (That's not an implication of entitlement on the original story, just who LCpl Smith is).
I would hope that someone else would give their seat up for LCpl Smith but these days I'm sure that isn't going to happen.
LCpl Smith would have got up like 99.99999% of us. End of story.
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Oh? So sure?
Have to agree. LCpl Smith is a disciplined law abiding citizen who isn't going to get into it with anyone. He wants to see his family but won't cause a scene. He doesn't feel entitled to anything (That's not an implication of entitlement on the original story, just who LCpl Smith is).
I would hope that someone else would give their seat up for LCpl Smith but these days I'm sure that isn't going to happen.
So why are there MP's? If every service member is a cool-headed fellow...
Why should anyone give up their seat for some dude in uniform? What makes him so damn special?
hurley842002
04-13-2017, 09:48
The guy that was beat is still going to get way more money this year than most forum members.
Even the "tough guy" members?
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2017, 09:50
Oh? So sure?
Yes, leave the emotional story and make believe to the liberals. Life is so much easier that way. ;)
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Great-Kazoo
04-13-2017, 10:00
They are far from perfect but they are also nowhere near the villains I'm seeing in the press and on the Internet today.
Agree. Unable to use the web site for tickest due to medical issues, I always talk to an agent. My last flight was handled above professional from everyone involved. EXCEPT for the airport and TSA employees. Even with a booked flight the ticket counter folks did some juggling to get me a seat that accommodated my needs. One thing they did was tell me, sorry we cannot upgrade you to X seating as those passengers were already checked in. BUT....we can do this instead.
Considering i had to fly out with 2 days notice they stepped up.
KevDen2005
04-13-2017, 10:10
So why are there MP's? If every service member is a cool-headed fellow...
Why should anyone give up their seat for some dude in uniform? What makes him so damn special?
To write tickets for no seat belt and for doing 26 MPH in a 25 MPH zone.
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2017, 10:15
To write tickets for no seat belt and for doing 26 MPH in a 25 MPH zone.
LOL, no jokes. Thats all the bitching I heard from the buckley guys
Aloha_Shooter
04-13-2017, 10:28
I bet there'd be righteous outrage.
Outrage? Yes. Even legitimate outrage. A legal right to that seat? No.
I'm sympathetic with all four who were involuntarily deboarded. That wasn't being denied boarding, it was being deboarded. However, that is a completely different item from having a legal right.
Let's take your scenario and say that because LCpl Smith stands his ground and the airline in question can't get their crew to the next airport (leaving aside there are other options the airline might have taken to get them there), SrA Jones, Spec4 Snuffy, and OS2 Brown are similarly delayed at the next airport and are unable to see THEIR families. They weren't deboarding those passengers to accommodate some Hollyweird celebrity (and even if they were, it's still the difference between legitimate outrage and a legal right to something).
It's also different from violent resistance to being asked to deboard. Seeing Dr. Dao was a refugee from the Communist takeover in Viet Nam makes his PTSD understandable but it still left the security officers with someone who was reacting hysterically.
Did you see anyone using a billy club in the video? Lash out with a right cross or upper cut? I didn't. From what I could see, they went in to try to escort him off and he went berzerk. How exactly is that on the airline?
Martinjmpr
04-13-2017, 10:55
If the question is "could the UA employees have handled this better?" then the answer is likely "yes."
But you know who else could have handled it better? The grown-ass man who decided to throw a temper tantrum like a 2 year old.
What is all this dumb talk about rights? Constitutional rights have no place in this conversation, and frankly to even mention them shows a weak argument right from the start. Might as well start the conversation off by saying, "there should be a law..."
Constitutional rights are a frame work that act as an absolute boundary, within those boundaries, what someone's rights are becomes irrelevant.
Molan Labe is correct in that most people are soft and weak, which is why we put up with terrible customer service in the first place. It's just too convenient to do anything else, or people wouldn't even know where to start when looking for alternatives. The reason the general public is outraged is because they expect the price they pay for a service to cover the costs to provide that service for them. Airlines overbook to mitigate losses from passengers that don't show up, and to help cover flights that aren't full. In order to be competitive airlines cut pricess to a level that is not sustainable without occasional overbooking. Airlines run the risk of occasional bad press, in exchange for consistently lower ticket prices. Both the airlines and passengers will have to make changes to come to a comfortable compromise, but constitutional rights have no place in the conversation.
I got to watch a drunk get "deboarded" from a United flight by a few of Chicago's finest many years ago. This is after two flight attendants asked him to deplane. The Captain came back and asked him to deplane. Two or three ground staff in ascending order of being well-dressed asked him to deplane. Then in came the cops and the entertainment began.* Very similar to this.
I have no doubt that the same thing happened in this case, only nothing exciting was happening so there's no footage of that.
Key point: This guy ran back on board after getting OFF the plane. That exceeds the definition of an "unruly passenger". We've become a nation of special snowflakes.
United F-ed up PR-wise, but this guy brought it on himself. If I were on the civil suit jury I'd award him $1 to tell United that they F-ed up, but he's to blame as well.
O2
* Becasue of the delay due to a drunk, United offered everyone on the flight free drinks. Go figure.
Keeps getting more interesting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4407638/Uproar-United-video-imperils-Chicago-airport-police.html
Looks like these yokels are nothing more than city paid rent-a-cops... not even allowed to have guns and might not have been allowed to even be on the plane. lol.
I bet Dao's lawyer is already planning his next vacation home. lol.
colorider
04-13-2017, 11:43
I just happened to meet with 2 united pilots this morning on a work related visit . Of course they have some details of the event and the flight that are not in the news.
Will post some details later when I'm not on the road.
I just cant believe a guy with a criminal record this bad would make a scene. Dont draw attention to yourself.
" hi im doctor dumbass, I sell drugs for money and trade drugs for sex, I lost my medical license for a while"
moron.
if it wasnt posted already
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctors-dark-past/22035353/
This is more about what happened on the plane and less about his gay sex life. This is another example of going bad to worse. There is no relevance to his United Airlines seat. The guy just got his face caved in and his teeth knocked out and now they are calling him a faggot? He somehow deserves this? I wouldn't want him to be my proctologist, but I would sit next to him on an aircraft (unless he tried to penetrate my personal space).
Oh no you didn't just keep us hangin like that.....
Bailey Guns
04-13-2017, 15:35
Why should anyone give up their seat for some dude in uniform? What makes him so damn special?
Well then that pretty blows your analogy right outta the water.
BushMasterBoy
04-13-2017, 15:38
According to this report it was not legal eviction from said aircraft. Even quotes CFR which governs FAA employees actions. They broke his nose and knocked out two front teeth? Seriously?
https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-controversial-united-airlines-flight-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html
Bailey Guns
04-13-2017, 15:38
Bottom line for me? There's enough what-the-actual-fuck-were-all-these-people-thinking to provide everyone involved with a big ole bowl full. Everyone involved contributed to the cluster fuck that is this whole episode.
Well then that pretty blows your analogy right outta the water.
Not really. I can explain later.
I guess you couldnt read my post. I didnt say what happened was right. I said you would think he would keep a low profile. nearly 100 FELONY counts of selling prescriptions for money. I say that makes him a dirtbag. I couldnt care any less that he is gay or whatever . Im saying why make a scene when you have such horrible skeletons in the closet. Me personally I would have gotten up and then pushed united for a better deal. I guess the fact that he IS a dirtbag is why he did what he did. I would say he has impaired judgement and bad decison making skills.
Clearly united is fucking stupid. in this age to do anything like that is stupid. you are being video taped every minute of everyday now in public. think about the consequences.
I believe there are more consequences by doing nothing. That dumb perverted felon dirtbag asian guy just threw a 3 pointer to keep us all from getting screwed by United and the rest of the airlines.
Aloha_Shooter
04-13-2017, 16:00
According to this report it was not legal eviction from said aircraft. Even quotes CFR which governs FAA employees actions. They broke his nose and knocked out two front teeth? Seriously?
https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-controversial-united-airlines-flight-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html
That's not a report, it's an editorial claiming the flight in question wasn't an overbook situation. She may be right but I don't think her analysis is definitive. Dao's injuries were horrible but have no more relevance to the question of whether or not he should have complied with the deboarding than his prior convictions, drug abuse, or past sexual history -- and honestly, if he did indeed hit his face on an armrest as part of his hysterical violent resistance, his injuries were essentially self-induced. On the other hand, his past history of PTSD does help explain his behavior and lends credence to the idea that the aviation security officers did NOT cause his injuries.
I believe there are more consequences by doing nothing. That dumb perverted felon dirtbag asian guy just threw a 3 pointer to keep us all from getting screwed by United and the rest of the airlines.
3-pointer? Hardly. He DID kick a 60 yard field goal for a tort action lawyer (followed by Munoz dropping the ball behind the line and committing a safety since we're using a football analogy). Overbooking is going to continue to be an industry practice because it's an economically efficient way for the airlines to meet the continuing phenomena of no-shows. United won't call for aviation security to deplane passengers anymore but they're still going to overbook and that's still going to make people unhappy in some cases.
That's not a report, it's an editorial claiming the flight in question wasn't an overbook situation. She may be right but I don't think her analysis is definitive. Dao's injuries were horrible but have no more relevance to the question of whether or not he should have complied with the deboarding than his prior convictions, drug abuse, or past sexual history -- and honestly, if he did indeed hit his face on an armrest as part of his hysterical violent resistance, his injuries were essentially self-induced. On the other hand, his past history of PTSD does help explain his behavior and lends credence to the idea that the aviation security officers did NOT cause his injuries.
3-pointer? Hardly. He DID kick a 60 yard field goal for a tort action lawyer (followed by Munoz dropping the ball behind the line and committing a safety since we're using a football analogy). Overbooking is going to continue to be an industry practice because it's an economically efficient way for the airlines to meet the continuing phenomena of no-shows. United won't call for aviation security to deplane passengers anymore but they're still going to overbook and that's still going to make people unhappy in some cases.
I was talking basketball - even though I am not a sports person. https://www.ar-15.co/images/smilies/anim_beer1.gif I'm not sure what is going to happen but think status quo is no more after all the financial damage that has been done to UAL this week.
Here is another UAL shit show. Can I get a beverage with my handcuffs: http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
Martinjmpr
04-13-2017, 16:41
Overbooking is going to continue to be an industry practice because it's an economically efficient way for the airlines to meet the continuing phenomena of no-shows. United won't call for aviation security to deplane passengers anymore but they're still going to overbook and that's still going to make people unhappy in some cases.
Or maybe they'll just overbook less which means a greater likelihood of a cancelled seat not being filled by a paying customer, and since it costs almost as much to fly with an empty seat as it does with a full one, fewer paid fares for seats then means everybody else gets to pay a little more.
And before you say "well, we'll just fly the competitors airlines" you better believe the competitors are watching this and will probably take similar actions.
And if Dr. Crazyass gets a nice settlement check from UA, where do you think THAT money is going to come from? Yep, the suckers, I mean the Flying Public, you know, you and me.
Yay! We all get to pay more for airline travel!
In a long run, I hope there is some type of overbooking % issue solved. Seems like airlines are now working on some issues from this Dao situation.
I remember when we had 8%+ overbooking, we had to start looking for volunteers 3hrs prior to boarding. Who knows, the policy/law changed past 19 years ago.
BushMasterBoy
04-13-2017, 17:41
They are already subsidized by the taxpayer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Reserve_Air_Fleet
The ticket he bought entitled him to have UA haul his butt from one place to another. Period.
It was not a guarantee that he would have THAT SPECIFIC SEAT on THAT SPECIFIC PLANE.
And if he had simply stayed off the plane after he had been removed, UA would have given him a ticket on another flight and sent him on his way: Since the SOLE obligation of UA was the get him to his destination, once he arrived, UA's part of the contract was fulfilled.
The ticket is for that specific flight at that specific time and date. You know, like is printed on said ticket (which is itself the contract). The other people who gave up their seats got $800 in vouchers for United, that can only be used $50 at a time. And expire in a year. Who the fuck would want to ride on that shitty airline 16 times in 12 months? If it's on business, then they're already expensing it.
United Airlines passenger dragged off flight suffered concussion, broken nose (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-airlines-passenger-dragged-off-flight-suffered-concussion-broken-nose/ar-BBzNKGB?li=BBnb7Kz)
David Dao, 69, suffered a concussion, broken nose and damaged sinuses and lost two front teeth when he was dragged off a flight Sunday to make room for United personnel, lawyer Thomas Demetrio said. He said Dao has been released from the hospital and is staying in a "secure" location.
Damn. I don't think this will end well for United. They will pay dearly for something that could have been handled much better for a pittance in financial terms.
hollohas
04-13-2017, 19:01
BTW, I don't think it has been mentioned. (Nevermind, I missed the discussion about this somewhere in the previous 20 pages...) That wasn't the Chicago PD. They were Aviation Security Officers from the Department of Aviation. They aren't even allowed to carry guns in the airport, unlike the actual Chicago PD officers that work in the airport. These guys were glorified rent-a-cops. They don't have arrest authority.
hollohas
04-13-2017, 19:31
Jeff Redding, deputy commissioner of safety and security for the city's Department of Aviation, told aldermen that operating procedures bar aviation officers from boarding a plane "if it's a customer service issue."
"If it is a customer-service related incident, then you don't need to board the plane at all," Redding said. "If there's no threat, there's no imminent threat or no charges being drawn, then you don't need to board the plane. There's no purpose for it."
...role of the aviation officers, who have police training but are not armed with guns. They must rely on sworn Chicago Police Department officers to file an arrest report, although the guards are allowed to detain people until city police arrive.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-united-chicago-city-council-met-2-20170413-story.html
Lol..just what we need politicians to get involved.<Sarcasm> Wow
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Lol..just what we need politicians to get involved.<Sarcasm> Wow
The politicians are probably feeling threatened. A citizen took a beating, and they weren't involved. That's their job.
Or maybe they'll just overbook less which means a greater likelihood of a cancelled seat not being filled by a paying customer, and since it costs almost as much to fly with an empty seat as it does with a full one, fewer paid fares for seats then means everybody else gets to pay a little more.
And before you say "well, we'll just fly the competitors airlines" you better believe the competitors are watching this and will probably take similar actions.
And if Dr. Crazyass gets a nice settlement check from UA, where do you think THAT money is going to come from? Yep, the suckers, I mean the Flying Public, you know, you and me.
Yay! We all get to pay more for airline travel!
I'd gladly pay a little more to never have to worry about someone telling me that the ticket I paid for is not longer valid. Going to the airport and missing a flight is not like having to pull out of the drive-thru to wait for your food to be cooked.
I would be a bit annoyed if it had happened to me, but not mad enough to risk negative law enforcement contact. I would have taken the cash, hotel, and next flight out and been content. My employer would have had to figure something out to cover for me and I would be in the clear.
How could this event truly have been prevented?
Easy, Airlines must leave two entire rows of empty "jump" seats in each seating zone. Sell these seats to people who missed flights on other airlines, flight crews that need to get to a different airport etc.
This would of course probably raise the cost of airfare, but as long as no one gets bumped off their flight everyone should be fine with the price hikes.
Also stop allowing standby tickets to be sold on any airline.
And if a customer refuses to listen or adhere to flight crews direction security will no longer be called, instead that person will have a lawyer provided to them at the airlines expense so that the upset passenger who doesn't believe he's being treated "fairly" can sue the airline for hurt feelings and a chapped ass.
http://i.imgur.com/D2A1PSf.jpg
hurley842002
04-14-2017, 10:42
Regarding his history: Irrelevant, his criminal history has no bearing, and his medical history certainly doesn't invoke national inspection. You're entitled to HIPPA protection. Why is his medical history national news? He didn't shoot up a school, he refused to give up his seat. If he's not serving time, it's not your damn business. Would you want the entire country trying to figure out every possible way you've fucked up in any related circumstance? How many people rejected your advances in high school. Pictures of you picking your nose. Things you told a counselor or HR rep in private. How many days you took off work. Etc. etc.
Regarding Lawsuits/Qualified Immunity/Standing:
You're forgetting some pretty big issues about the way the Court works. He only needs to plead a claim that will survive, and go for a jury trial. United will settle it out to avoid press coverage. He doesn't need to prove the claims terribly well; a jury would be sympathetic if it went to trial anyway. Going to court isn't about law or facts, or justice. Want a claim that will survive? Allege racial profiling in the selection. Done.
Bingo on all the above.
RblDiver
04-14-2017, 13:37
I would have taken the cash, hotel, and next flight out and been content.
Except that they don't offer cash, they offer those stupid vouchers for another flight. I maybe do one trip a year where I fly, I have no use for those vouchers, so I sure wouldn't volunteer my seat.
Also, for those who are saying he has a questionable past: Yeah? So? What is its bearing on this situation now?
That'd be like saying "Well, that guy served time in prison, but has since been released. A cop pulled him over for speeding when he was clearly going the limit. He protested, so the cop beat him up. But since he's been in jail before we'll overlook the dirty cop."
Aloha_Shooter
04-14-2017, 14:52
Also, for those who are saying he has a questionable past: Yeah? So? What is its bearing on this situation now?
The bearing is that he has a history of acting abnormally so the security officers' story that they did NOT beat him and his injuries were caused by his own reactions is quite plausible. The doctor's past actions are not an excuse to beat him and I don't think anyone has said that. However, his past history lends some credence to the airline's story that he was being belligerent and disruptive -- and certainly does more to explain his injuries given the video evidence.
Martinjmpr
04-14-2017, 15:16
The bearing is that he has a history of acting abnormally so the security officers' story that they did NOT beat him and his injuries were caused by his own reactions is quite plausible. The doctor's past actions are not an excuse to beat him and I don't think anyone has said that. However, his past history lends some credence to the airline's story that he was being belligerent and disruptive -- and certainly does more to explain his injuries given the video evidence.
Dao's background is at least as relevant as Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown's backgrounds were. ;)
Aloha_Shooter
04-14-2017, 16:38
Sorry foxtrot, this has nothing to do with with liking or agreeing with Dr. Dao. In fact, I would say it's quite the opposite: a lot of people are agreeing with him because they dislike the airline rather than because of the facts of the case or whether the actions were right or wrong.
I agree his past criminal (or not) history is irrelevant. What I'm saying is that his behaviorial history actually IS relevant because it bears on whether you believe his injuries were caused by the officers (none of whom seemed to be swinging violently) or self-inflicted by hysterical resistance. A past history of PTSD does actually make the self-infliction scenario more likely -- and I completely disagree that it's unlikely he knocked himself out. If he's thrashing around and hits his head violently on the armrest, it's a good bet that he stunned himself as well -- especially given the broken nose and 2 teeth knocked out. Again, go back to the viral video -- do you see ANY violent arm swings by the security officers?
I get that a lot of you are inherently suspicious of self-important tyrants or mall cops. I even agree with that under some circumstances but what I saw and heard from the video seemed to fit better with Dao spazzing out and hurting himself than with a mall cop busting on him because he could. The question of whether United should have deboarded him or other passengers is a separate question from whether they did something wrong in the process of deboarding. ON the first point, Scalia used to maintain a law could be wrong morally or ethically and still be constitutional. Similarly, I maintain the airline shouldn't have gone through deboarding the way they did but they had every right to do so. On the second point, it seems more likely to me that his injuries were self-inflicted by his behavior.
How about this argument: Nobody should have put their hands on that man. No hands on that man, no resistance.
Someone puts their hands on you, you pull your firearm, they stab you... your fault?
BushMasterBoy
04-14-2017, 17:13
The good news is Delta is now authorizing their agents to allow up to $10,000 to unseat you from one of their flights. 10K...my ass will fly off that plane!
Madeinhb
04-14-2017, 17:16
The good news is Delta is now authorizing their agents to allow up to $10,000 to unseat you from one of their flights. 10K...my ass will fly off that plane!
Will never happen. United agents have up to 10k also but they never get near it.
Will never happen. United agents have up to 10k also but they never get near it.
Well I'll bet dinky Dau will get at least $5 million.
Will never happen. United agents have up to 10k also but they never get near it.
If they have up to $10k, then this is 100000% on United.
(Assuming I'm understanding the comment correctly.)
Madeinhb
04-14-2017, 17:38
If they have up to $10k, then this is 100000% on United.
(Assuming I'm understanding the comment correctly.)
Yes. My brothers friend is a pilot for United. He has said they have up to 10k but never go near it. I'm not sure if it's 10k per customer or per flight. But I've never seen anyone go above $1500.
This is very much on United. They ran into a contingency that they had poorly planned for and decided that their customers should be negatively impacted rather than finding a better way. That's why folks don't like to fly, because they're the consumer and being treated like crap.
When this is all said and done, United could have chartered a private flight for their crew and still come way out ahead.
I wonder if an airline could survive if they catered to their clientele instead of the current fight for the bottom of the market with fees for everything? You won't be squeezed into your seat, they'll make sure you have a good experience, and you'll pay a premium for the service.
Madeinhb
04-14-2017, 18:33
This is very much on United. They ran into a contingency that they had poorly planned for and decided that their customers should be negatively impacted rather than finding a better way. That's why folks don't like to fly, because they're the consumer and being treated like crap.
When this is all said and done, United could have chartered a private flight for their crew and still come way out ahead.
I wonder if an airline could survive if they catered to their clientele instead of the current fight for the bottom of the market with fees for everything? You won't be squeezed into your seat, they'll make sure you have a good experience, and you'll pay a premium for the service.
Or put their crew on another airline that night. This happens all the time.
Or put their crew on another airline that night. This happens all the time.
Yep.
As I said again on this thread. $ talks and united failed to get volunteer with $$$$$.
There are always "price" for pax flying day late.
See post #24.
Or put their crew on another airline that night. This happens all the time.
It does happen frequently. But they lose the ability to ensure the crew gets moved when using another airline. They fly space positive on their own flights (and their code share flights). If the other airlines are full or run later then they run the risk of down-line delays or cancellations due to being bumped or timed out on their regulatory duty/rest.
It's a crap sandwich. They should've handled it better. There will always be last minute and unplanned crew movements though. Many people got bumped around the country that day. Most just didn't get socked in the eye and YouTube'd as it happened.
In 19 years as a airline pilot, I've deadheaded on other airlines exactly twice. I seem to dead head quite a bit. But it's always on my own airline. There are lots of variables. The frequency between the two cities for example. I think the airlines handled this poorly, but I also feel that the guy is a POS. Why they didn't just continue to raise the offer is beyond me. Especially IF they are authorized to go up to $10k.
But I don't have much sympathy for the DR.
What's your reasoning for not sympathizing with the guy?
DireWolf
04-15-2017, 12:42
The value of any voucher is largely irrelevant - e.g. NO amount of voucher-based compensation would get me to give up my seat under any conditions, as:
1. I (like many non-recreational flyers I'm sure) don't look at price as my main consideration - it's all about the scheduling. All travel is expensed to employer regardless of cost, and reimbursed within a week or two....
2. When flying for personal reasons, I'm using miles anyway (flights for last vacation cost something like $10-$15 per ticket, which was all tax/fee stuff, not ticket price). I could wipe my ass with a $10k voucher with no loss/inconvenience, because it would never get used anyway. In other words, there is absolutely no upside or incentive to that.
If they change the regs to require airlines to provide a straight-up cash payment for reimbursement (check would be good also), that -might- (depending on the amount) motivate one to try and rearange their scheduling.....
ETA: The guy was in his seat, which he paid for, period - end of story. As far as I'm concerned, short of deboarding the entire plane for an unrelated cause, at that point it was a done deal, and to hell with the "may be denied boarding" language on the ticket. If I buy a BMW, can they decide at the last minute to give me a VW instead? Keep the money and tell me to get lost? Heeeeelllllll no.....
Also, most tickets are non-refundable except in very limited circumstances, even with trip insurance. United charges a $200 fee just to change your flight (plus fare difference) until you hit Premier Gold or higher, so between that and the non-refundable ticket, empty seats due to passengers not showing up are still making money....
If they choose to bring charges on the guy, I can definatively say that were I to be on that jury, I'd be making one hell of a push for either a not-guilty verdict, or even jury nullification if necessary, regardless of what the charges were...
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
I have never deadheaded on another airline, it's always your own metal unless they are in dire straights. Cargo and charter is very different.
This was a cluster for sure, but it was republic airlines, not united. It was Chicago police/security who was called to remove the unwilling passenger. It says on the agreement when you purchase you may be denied boarding. Lots more facts about this guy and the situation before the videos started rolling.
While the timeliness of the deadhead crew getting on the flight was poor, it was still necessary to get ~76 people on another flight moved to their destination.
This happens every day on every airline and this guy made it a point to be a problem. While it could have been handled with more money or just delaying the flight long enough that someone finally got off on their own accord, there also didn't have to be a change in the Drs mind and to run back onto the plane and refuse to get off. More facts and passenger eyewitness accounts are coming out. Don't be too quick to kindle, especially involving a convicted felon like this "Dr."
I also didn't see any passenger sitting there say NO, obviously this guy needs to get home, I'll take the voucher and go home tomorrow.
In the end, social media loves to vilify anything and anyone. every flight I've flown this week has been completely full and going into the summer it will remain the same way. So if you are pissed off and don't want this to happen to you, buy a first class ticket or at a minimum buy directly from your airline of choice, not on a 3rd party site to save $1.
In today's airline world their goal is to maximize butts in seats. People have become too cheap to pay for this service. Airlines get you in a small tube traveling almost 600 MPH miles above the ground typically at a price less than it costs if you were to drive and over 10x the time savings. Yet people want to see fares that cost less than a taxi or uber and they think they should get food and snacks and drinks and premium service when they are paying more for their bag to ride in a cargo pit then they are for themselves.
At the end of the day I'm sure the Dr. will get some sort of settlement, even though I prefer to have all the facts come out and if what I am hearing is true I'd like to see charges brought against him. But I'll withhold most judgement until the facts actually do come to surface.
Great-Kazoo
04-15-2017, 16:28
So if you are pissed off and don't want this to happen to you, buy a first class ticket or at a minimum buy directly from your airline of choice, not on a 3rd party site to save $1.
Absolutely. Most people are unaware those cheapflights.com money savers give you no recourse with the airline. You have to deal with the 3rd party. We had an issue with seating one year. Bottom line, i was told. If there's an issue you need to take it up with the vendor you purchased the ticket from. had you dealt with us directly, you would have had options.
When we have to fly it's worth the extra $$ going first class.
Madeinhb
04-15-2017, 16:42
Sniper7 - while I can agree, I think most people have issues with cost in the sense of prices continue to go up, baggage fees, etc. As incomes continue to stall and other prices go up - then you see airlines making record profits.
The issue here is Republic handled this wrong and let the entire plane board. I just read that United changed its policy and all staff needs to be there 1 hour prior to flight in order to bump people prior to getting on the plane.
So if you are pissed off and don't want this to happen to you, buy a first class ticket or at a minimum buy directly from your airline of choice, not on a 3rd party site to save $1.
Absolutely. Most people are unaware those cheapflights.com money savers give you no recourse with the airline. You have to deal with the 3rd party. We had an issue with seating one year. Bottom line, i was told. If there's an issue you need to take it up with the vendor you purchased the ticket from. had you dealt with us directly, you would have had options.
When we have to fly it's worth the extra $$ going first class.
Same goes with hotel rooms booked through third party websites.
Aloha_Shooter
04-15-2017, 19:36
The issue here is Republic handled this wrong and let the entire plane board. I just read that United changed its policy and all staff needs to be there 1 hour prior to flight in order to bump people prior to getting on the plane.
.. and that is why I draw a distinction between being denied boarding and being deboarded involuntarily.
FWIW, as I recall, when the airline doesn't get you on the flight you booked and can't get you back out on their own flights within some time period (2 hours? 4?), they are obligated to get you on a competitor's flight if seats are available. IIRC, there's an exception to that rule for weather but not for mechanical issues or crew changes. Maybe one of the aviation professionals here could either confirm or set me right on this?
Madeinhb
04-15-2017, 19:38
.. and that is why I draw a distinction between being denied boarding and being deboarded involuntarily.
FWIW, as I recall, when the airline doesn't get you on the flight you booked and can't get you back out on their own flights within some time period (2 hours? 4?), they are obligated to get you on a competitor's flight if seats are available. IIRC, there's an exception to that rule for weather but not for mechanical issues or crew changes. Maybe one of the aviation professionals here could either confirm or set me right on this?
I can attest to this. Not sure the timing. But I had a flight with United. At the connecting city - they out me on Delta back to Denver.
Same goes with hotel rooms booked through third party websites.
True, but if you have status with either, that does get you some consideration.
It's wise to sign up for the rewards programs of anyone you do business with.
While I did 99.99% of my hotel business with Hilton, we used to visit the kids in Tacoma and always did Priceline for those stays because the Courtyard downtown was the only 4-star and we could get the room cheaper. Always treated like any other regular if there was ever an issue.
Then again, I try to be polite, respectful of others in nearly any circumstance, and not be a whiney asshole jerkoff.
.. and that is why I draw a distinction between being denied boarding and being deboarded involuntarily.
FWIW, as I recall, when the airline doesn't get you on the flight you booked and can't get you back out on their own flights within some time period (2 hours? 4?), they are obligated to get you on a competitor's flight if seats are available. IIRC, there's an exception to that rule for weather but not for mechanical issues or crew changes. Maybe one of the aviation professionals here could either confirm or set me right on this?
I can attest to this. Not sure the timing. But I had a flight with United. At the connecting city - they out me on Delta back to Denver.
Not sure the exact "rules" but we've been seated on other carriers at times when necessary, I can recall that using UA, Frontier, and Midwest Express back in the day.
The issue here is Republic handled this wrong and let the entire plane board. I just read that United changed its policy and all staff needs to be there 1 hour prior to flight in order to bump people prior to getting on the plane.
Republic didn't board that flight. United did. Republic has no staff at ORD. The boarding policies, booking software, agents, and decisions were main line United.
1hr prior to boarding will be interesting. Especially on those scheduled 35 minute turns. The cancellations that will cause won't make the news though.
BushMasterBoy
04-15-2017, 22:45
70175
The cancellations that will cause won't make the news though.
It doesn't need to. It's the airline's own problem if they can't manage their staff well enough.
It doesn't need to. It's the airline's own problem if they can't manage their staff well enough.
Of course it doesn't need to. If they chose to staff for it then it will likely force the airline to use flight crews even less efficiently than 117 already does and therefore reduce the flights offered due to lack of crews and then increase cost of the flights that remain to cover loss of passenger seat-miles.
Yes, an effective way to reduce the number of flight cancellations is to reduce the number of flights offered. Other airlines have done it and some have figured out how to survive. For now at least.
I'm not saying there aren't things that can be done. Most of the suggestions in this forum ignore the regulatory environment and actual environment the industry operates in though. Not to mention the CBA's.
The FAA just made it extremely difficult, time consuming, and expensive to get an ATP. Then they required 121 first officers (not just the captain) to have an ATP. Then they knee jerked all new duty/rest regulations to make it even more difficult to use the already dwindling supply of pilots. Mainline carriers will eventually feel the pinch as the number of available of regional pilots they can hire dries up.
The industry will look very different in a couple of years. For better or worse. And it's often hard to imagine it can get worse.
Aloha_Shooter
04-16-2017, 16:07
No one will remember any of this when Sgt Snuffy is unable to get home due to a flight cancellation because the crew taking him home were unable to get to the airport he was flying from but oh well ...
Simple solution: Require carriers to keep say, 3 percent, of seats open on any particular flight for standby passengers and crew deadheads. Allow them to raise the ticket prices by exactly the same percentage.
Simple solution: Require carriers to keep say, 3 percent, of seats open on any particular flight for standby passengers and crew deadheads. Allow them to raise the ticket prices by exactly the same percentage.
Having extra seats on a flight would do a lot for mitigating mid flight seating issues as well.
BushMasterBoy
04-16-2017, 19:20
Just put a seat belt in the bathroom. Emergency spare seating. There ... problem solved!
theGinsue
04-16-2017, 19:51
Just put a seat belt in the bathroom. Emergency spare seating. There ... problem solved!
I like (need) to sleep when I fly. Plus, when I sit too long on the toilet my legs fall asleep. You know what happens when your legs fall asleep during the day? They'll be awake all night.
http://thedailystooge.com/airline-straps-man-to-roof/
Airline Apologizes For Strapping Man To Roof Of Plane Due To Oversold Flight
By Ben Dungan on April 11, 201788 Comments
Airline Apologizes For Strapping Man To Roof Of Plane Due To Oversold Flight
LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY — Unified Airlines attempted an apology for what seems to be just another example of the airlines trying to correct an oversold flight as a passenger was forcibly removed from his seat and strapped to the roof of the plane for the duration of the flight. “We reserve the right to strap any of our passengers to the wings, underbelly, or roof of the plane under any given circumstance. Nevertheless, we are sorry,” said Unified Airlines Vice President Mike Gottard, adding that the passenger was strapped on safely and securely.
“We reserve the right to strap any of our passengers to the wings, underbelly, or roof of the plane under any circumstance. Nevertheless, we are sorry,”
Unified Airlines is no stranger to controversy. Just last year they came under fire for various wrong doings such as: randomly taking away seat belts, removing passengers mid-flight, and forcing passengers to use mandatory catheters in lieu of bathrooms. “While we are not perfect, we strive to be. That is why we are issuing a $50 voucher to the passenger affected,” said Gottard proudly. While the airline is not expected to strap anyone other passengers to a plane’s exterior anytime soon, it’s certainly a possibility.
Aloha_Shooter
04-16-2017, 20:30
Simple solution: Require carriers to keep say, 3 percent, of seats open on any particular flight for standby passengers and crew deadheads. Allow them to raise the ticket prices by exactly the same percentage.
"Allow"? What, you want to reinstitute regulation? I know a lot of Democrats do and frankly the major airlines probably wouldn't mind -- they were making money hand-over-fist before deregulation and didn't have to worry about competing with low-fare airlines. Want that $300-400 cheap trip to Chicago or Atlanta or Orlando? Good luck with that. Airfares in the 1970s were generally more expensive than today and that's not counting the difference caused by comparing 1970s dollars to 2010s dollars. Airlines are making money today but no one is counting that against the years of bleeding they suffered as they learned to adapt to the modern market.
The REAL simple solution was for Dr. Dao to comply with the request then demand an alternate flight on a competing airline that got him home that night. One of his proponents claimed on the talk shows that there were seats on another airline (although they had suggested putting the crew on that flight, it makes more sense for the airline to keep their crew in their system and pay to fulfill their contract of carriage even if it required use of another airline.
"Allow"? What, you want to reinstitute regulation? I know a lot of Democrats do and frankly the major airlines probably wouldn't mind -- they were making money hand-over-fist before deregulation and didn't have to worry about competing with low-fare airlines. Want that $300-400 cheap trip to Chicago or Atlanta or Orlando? Good luck with that. Airfares in the 1970s were generally more expensive than today and that's not counting the difference caused by comparing 1970s dollars to 2010s dollars. Airlines are making money today but no one is counting that against the years of bleeding they suffered as they learned to adapt to the modern market.
The REAL simple solution was for Dr. Dao to comply with the request then demand an alternate flight on a competing airline that got him home that night. One of his proponents claimed on the talk shows that there were seats on another airline (although they had suggested putting the crew on that flight, it makes more sense for the airline to keep their crew in their system and pay to fulfill their contract of carriage even if it required use of another airline.
Demand huh? Both myself and my co worker were stranded (not together) recently due to the Delta airlines lack of crew available and I couldn't even get them to let me sleep in the terminal let alone demand anything. All both he and I were told to go pound sand. How exactly was he going to demand to get on another carriers flight?
Side question for you guys who have been stuck traveling...
Anybody ever use their credit cards that offer trip protection and have luck with that? If so what was the circumstances and outcome? I've always wondered if they will refund your origional ticket and hotel and rental cars or maybe cover whatever was need to correct the problem?
Aloha_Shooter
04-17-2017, 09:24
Demand huh? Both myself and my co worker were stranded (not together) recently due to the Delta airlines lack of crew available and I couldn't even get them to let me sleep in the terminal let alone demand anything. All both he and I were told to go pound sand. How exactly was he going to demand to get on another carriers flight?
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
Involuntary Bumping
DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:
If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.
If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result. In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.
I had thought there was something added in recently passed legislation requiring them to put you on an alternate carrier if they couldn't get you out within some timeframe but can't locate it and maybe the expanded compensation is supposed to address that. Either way, telling them "you'll have to carry me out" was stupid.
Having said that, I'm on my way to the airport for a United flight.
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
I had thought there was something added in recently passed legislation requiring them to put you on an alternate carrier if they couldn't get you out within some timeframe but can't locate it and maybe the expanded compensation is supposed to address that. Either way, telling them "you'll have to carry me out" was stupid.
Having said that, I'm on my way to the airport for a United flight.
This only applies to being "bumped". There are no protections for flights being cancelled. My own opinion is that their is no difference between being involuntarily bumped and cancelled (due to non weather events), but the laws don't make that distinction. My flight was cancelled because the flight crew scheduled for that flight was over their accumulated flight hours. I was told to come back the next day and that they didn't care that I had to purchase extra meals and lodging for the night (as I said they wouldn't even let me stay in the terminal). If you as a company decide to play the odds as far as overbooking, over scheduling etc to benefit you then I have no sympathy for you in the event that it bites you in the ass.
Martinjmpr
04-17-2017, 11:33
This only applies to being "bumped". There are no protections for flights being cancelled. My own opinion is that their is no difference between being involuntarily bumped and cancelled (due to non weather events), but the laws don't make that distinction. .
Yep, and think about what kind of incentives this gives airlines.
Let's see - try to "bump" passengers, have to shell out $$ and risk a social-media event that generates enormous bad PR,
OR
Cancel the whole flight and say "sorry, flight was cancelled due to safety considerations, have a nice day, sorry if you have a connecting flight you'll now miss, I guess it sucks to be you."
So maybe instead of more expensive tickets, as a result of this incident what we'll see instead is simply more cancelled flights.
Way to go, Dr. Dumbass.
"Allow"? What, you want to reinstitute regulation? I know a lot of Democrats do and frankly the major airlines probably wouldn't mind -- they were making money hand-over-fist before deregulation and didn't have to worry about competing with low-fare airlines. Want that $300-400 cheap trip to Chicago or Atlanta or Orlando? Good luck with that. Airfares in the 1970s were generally more expensive than today and that's not counting the difference caused by comparing 1970s dollars to 2010s dollars. Airlines are making money today but no one is counting that against the years of bleeding they suffered as they learned to adapt to the modern market.
The REAL simple solution was for Dr. Dao to comply with the request then demand an alternate flight on a competing airline that got him home that night. One of his proponents claimed on the talk shows that there were seats on another airline (although they had suggested putting the crew on that flight, it makes more sense for the airline to keep their crew in their system and pay to fulfill their contract of carriage even if it required use of another airline.
Comply and Demand, the new interaction between businesses and their customers. LOL.
Once a person complies, they have no bargaining leverage with which to demand.
So maybe instead of more expensive tickets, as a result of this incident what we'll see instead is simply more cancelled flights.
When they stop delivering consistent services, people stop purchasing their services. Company goes out of business. It's the nature of business.
I honestly wish tickets were more expensive, quality of product goes up, crowding of aircraft and seats goes down. You get what you pay for in everything in life.
bellavite1
04-18-2017, 01:03
This only applies to being "bumped". There are no protections for flights being cancelled. My own opinion is that their is no difference between being involuntarily bumped and cancelled (due to non weather events), but the laws don't make that distinction. My flight was cancelled because the flight crew scheduled for that flight was over their accumulated flight hours. I was told to come back the next day and that they didn't care that I had to purchase extra meals and lodging for the night (as I said they wouldn't even let me stay in the terminal). If you as a company decide to play the odds as far as overbooking, over scheduling etc to benefit you then I have no sympathy for you in the event that it bites you in the ass.
Happened to me a few years ago on my way to Italy.
I missed my father 's funeral because of it.
Fuck them.
Martinjmpr
04-18-2017, 08:30
When they stop delivering consistent services, people stop purchasing their services. Company goes out of business. It's the nature of business.
Except that the other airlines are watching and since they all have the same incentive to reduce costs, any action taken by one airline to reduce costs is likely to be copied by other airlines, which means you'll be choosing between two flavors of a shit sandwich.
For most casual travelers, cost is the overriding factor that determines which airline they fly on. Long after we've moved onto the next Outrage Of The Week, people will be booking their tickets and saying "well, this flight is $15 less" and that's the one they'll book.
Madeinhb
04-18-2017, 08:49
Except that the other airlines are watching and since they all have the same incentive to reduce costs, any action taken by one airline to reduce costs is likely to be copied by other airlines, which means you'll be choosing between two flavors of a shit sandwich.
For most casual travelers, cost is the overriding factor that determines which airline they fly on. Long after we've moved onto the next Outrage Of The Week, people will be booking their tickets and saying "well, this flight is $15 less" and that's the one they'll book.
Exactly. Version and AT&T does this. One makes a change, they other instantly matches that change.
The lack of choice thanks to repeated mergers means in most regions there are only a few choices when it comes to air travel. In my opinion this means that no matter how much you pay the companies will never be too concerned with customer service. Your choice is of course to get over it or not fly. While I understand that if I buy a first class ticket that I will in theory get better service than the lowest ticked passenger I can't blame people for opting for the low price option. We already pay the TSA tax, baggage fees, upgraded anything fees, ticket change fees etc. In a world where median wage increases don't go up nearly a tenth as the costs of everything else, again I can hardly blame people for purchasing cheap air fares.
Madeinhb
04-18-2017, 10:53
The lack of choice thanks to repeated mergers means in most regions there are only a few choices when it comes to air travel. In my opinion this means that no matter how much you pay the companies will never be too concerned with customer service. Your choice is of course to get over it or not fly. While I understand that if I buy a first class ticket that I will in theory get better service than the lowest ticked passenger I can't blame people for opting for the low price option. We already pay the TSA tax, baggage fees, upgraded anything fees, ticket change fees etc. In a world where median wage increases don't go up nearly a tenth as the costs of everything else, again I can hardly blame people for purchasing cheap air fares.
My rule of thumb is that I don't fly to anywhere that is less than 600 miles away from. I drive. It takes the same amount of time to drive to these locations as if I were to fly.
babarsac
04-18-2017, 11:27
I'll be flying quite a bit this year both for work and personal reasons. The only time I'm not flying United is when I go overseas. I've never had an issue on United but then again I always upgrade to Economy Plus.
I've been on one commercial round trip flight since 9/11, and that was 10 years ago. I flew a lot in the 90s; and If I got to where I was going safely, I was happy. I guess I don't know too much about the conditions that exist today, but I'm not too sympathetic of this passenger who violated the terms of his purchase and then disrupted the flight leading to his unfortunate removal from the aircraft.
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