Sig P320 fires during drop safety test

[DenverGP]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/08/jeremy-s/breaking-ttag-tests-show-p320-striker-fired-pistols-are-not-drop-safe/


After TTAG ran an article a few days ago disputing some claims that the P320 could fire when dropped, TTAG decided to perform their own drop test on a brand new in box P320 using primed cases. They were apparently surprised when they were able to reproduce the issue in 2 out of 3 drops.

[CS1983]

Is this the one issued to vacationing ICE agents?

[Skip]

If we're doing this here... I am withholding judgement until more objective testing can be performed.

There has been so much butt hurt over the XM17 process in spite of Sig being the only one to actually meet requirements. Everything is political.

Any firearm can AD given the right (wrong) circumstances. It's the margin of safety that matters. IMHO every US mil issued weapon has had sufficient margin and Pvt Dumbfuck will still find a way to AD/ND (improperly maintained weapons are the fault of the operator).

[sellersm]

This seems fairly balanced, they actually are halting sales until Sig responds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA

[hollohas]

Sig has responded.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/08/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-sig-sauer-offers-voluntary-trigger-upgrade-p320-pistols/


P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability.

Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms AmmunitionManufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI[emoji768]), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

The design of the SIGSAUER P320overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process.

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIGSAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017.

The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade.

“SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.

[SuperiorDG]

What's up with the testers continuing to do testing on a gun that has already fired in previous test with little to no safety in mind? One guy is wearing flip-flops and shorts.

[ray1970]

I'm not here to bash Sig or the P320 but the overall mechanical design didn't agree with me. That's the reason I parted ways with mine. Guess I'm just weird about stuff.

[hollohas]

What's up with the testers continuing to do testing on a gun that has already fired in previous test with little to no safety in mind? One guy is wearing flip-flops and shorts.Thishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170808/bb5c2335f560fdd82256f50e52b2ebc2.jpg

[thvigil11]

1980's Sig loses to Beretta---- CONSPIRACY!!!

2010's Sig wins------- CONSPIRACY!!!

Time and time again, there are always complainers about the mil acquisition process. There are also always questionable decisions by the folks selecting gear. It's been going on since there was a military. Can't wait to see the soap opera over the ICSR. The battle rifle folks are already going nuts over that one. What Tio Sam does has little impact on my personal choice of weapons. If I was younger and still "in" I might care. Sucks for our current service members to get crap, but I look back at some of the crap from my day and I consider much of it a rite of passage. If it's something that gets folks injured or killed, then the guilty should hang. Bear in mind though, its not the first time something was selected and then a problem was identified. At least it hasn't been fielded yet so they have time to make amends. Finally remember, Gomer will always find a way to F&#K something up.

Still safer than an Osprey!

[hollohas]

I like (don't love) my P320. It ran without issue in a 3 day pistol class I took it to. It's a fine weapon, but it could never replace my love for 1911's.

That said, it will be sitting in my safe until I can get it sent to Sig for the trigger upgrades.

[Bailey Guns]

I don't care what manufacturer it is or what the guy's wearing when he "tests" it. It fires 2 out of 3 times? That's not good.

Now, there are a few assumptions on my part. They haven't tampered with the gun or the primed cases they're using and they're doing exactly what they say they're doing with what they say they're doing it with. In other words, they're telling the truth about the way the test was performed.

Sig may have some " 'splaining to do".

ETA: And I love the way Sig says there's nothing wrong with the gun. "But we'll fix enhance it anyway."

[SuperiorDG]

Until Monday.


SIG SAUER Issues Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol
Published Date: 08/08/2017
P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability.
Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.
The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process.
Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.
As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017.
The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade.
“SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.”

[00tec]

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge

Beyond US standards?

Sorry, but dropping this thing in ANY fashion from what appears to be a reasonable height and the firing pin contacts the primer = bad

[hollohas]

Beyond US standards?

Sorry, but dropping this thing in ANY fashion from what appears to be a reasonable height and the firing pin contacts the primer = badAgreed. However, Sig didn't write the standards. Sounds like the testing standards need to be improved.

[SuperiorDG]

I've dropped a Glock19 before and it scared the crap out of me. These things happen and it would suck if the gun went off.

[ray1970]

Maybe Sig just needs a little "dongle" on the trigger like Glock. Obviously the trigger bar must be moving rearward to disengage the striker block safety.

I will find it funny if they fix the issue and people get their pistols back with a horribly heavy trigger pull. Or better yet the pistols are returned to their owners with a manual thumb safety.

[BushMasterBoy]

I don't know what all the fuss about safety selector is. All my long guns have them. Except my 1890 shotgun. Flame away Darwinian prototypes...

[hurley842002]

"dongle" .

You said "dongle".....LOL

[ray1970]

You said "dongle".....LOL

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170808/c8bce08c9ddbff6c60114f1109bd9aa3.jpeg

If I was smarter (and not doing this stuff on my phone) I'd make that a meme.

[Gman]

I wonder how crappy the trigger will be after the "upgrade"?

"It's safer."

"Yeah, but now it's got a gritty 16 lb. pull."

[Bailey Guns]

Now, now...it's an "enhancement", not an upgrade. Enhancement.

[spqrzilla]

From reading Andrew Twohy post, it looks like the trigger just needs to be lighter in weight. Should be easy to address and a minor hiccup to what appears to be a pretty good gun.

[Zundfolge]

Looks like the best thing you can do is go with an Apex trigger.

[theGinsue]

There are a lot of things about Sig's that I really like and a few things I don't.

I saw the video in post #4 before this thread was started and didn't find it unreasonable to be concerned with the P320 landing in the necessary orientation required to cause the unintended discharge.

I'm bothered by Sig's initial reluctance to address a serious potentially deadly issue with the P320. To say that they met/exceeded all standards is the same as Flint, MI saying "I know the water is aweful, but it meets all standards" or auto manufacturers saying "Our vehicle has passed all of our safety tests and exceeds all U.S. Government safety requirements...the fact that a dozen people have died when the car spontaneously combusted is just a fluke and is likely caused by consumer aftermarket modifications.".

Even if you passed every required test doesn't mean something is safe. If someone else finds a "rare" situation that could cause a firearm to discharge without operator intention then there is an issue that needs to be fixed.

I'm guessing that someone in Sig's legal dept. told them that if even 1 person dies due to this problem they could be liable for millions since they knew of the potential.

[brutal]

From reading Andrew Twohy post, it looks like the trigger just needs to be lighter in weight. Should be easy to address and a minor hiccup to what appears to be a pretty good gun.

Soldier Systems has the skinny if you want to read.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-acknowledges-p320-trigger-issues-with-30deg-drop-m17-mhs-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/

In short," Although SIG was already working toward introducing the MHS-inspired Enhanced Trigger to the P320, this -30deg drop issue has hastened their effort. They have lightened the Trigger, Striker and Sear by about 30% overall and added a Disconnect (commercial only, not MHS). The trigger pull weight is unaffected, but rather the trigger part actually weighs less. The reason they lightened those parts is to mitigate the momentum gained by the heavier parts during a drop.

Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon. "

[brutal]

From reading Andrew Twohy post, it looks like the trigger just needs to be lighter in weight. Should be easy to address and a minor hiccup to what appears to be a pretty good gun.

Soldier Systems has the skinny if you want to read.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-acknowledges-p320-trigger-issues-with-30deg-drop-m17-mhs-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/

In short," Although SIG was already working toward introducing the MHS-inspired Enhanced Trigger to the P320, this -30deg drop issue has hastened their effort. They have lightened the Trigger, Striker and Sear by about 30% overall and added a Disconnect (commercial only, not MHS). The trigger pull weight is unaffected, but rather the trigger part actually weighs less. The reason they lightened those parts is to mitigate the momentum gained by the heavier parts during a drop.

Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon. "

"My take is that despite building their pistols to industry standards, SIG has acknowledged the issue and is taking steps to fix it. They didn’t waste any time. They’ve stopped commercial production of the P320 and are concentrating on the upgrade. It’s going to be more than just swapping parts. The slide and frame will need some work as well so the pistol will need to go back to SIG. Details will soon follow on how to participate in the voluntary upgrade program."

[SuperiorDG]

Looks like the best thing you can do is go with an Apex trigger.

Ordered one yesterday. Will see, but I don't plan on drop testing it.

[hollohas]

At least one person has been injured by this flaw (and has filed a lawsuit against Sig) so I think Sig is taking this seriously. A police officer was shot in the knee when he dropped his holstered P320.

Hell, instead of just issuing a press release, they actually brought a bunch of gun writers out to their factory yesterday to discuss this. The CEO spoke to the writers of blogs like Solider Systems Daily and The Truth About Guns in person.

[CHA-LEE]

There may be e a flood of cheap P320's on the market soon due to this issue....... +1 for the guys looking for a deal on a blaster.

[Jer]

*waiting patiently for massive clearance sales coupled with $100 manufacturer's rebate*

[Skip]

[snip]

Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon. "

[snip]

And here you find a key piece of info that nearly everyone is ignoring... The trigger system submitted for MHS/XM17 is different from the commercial P320.

Anyone paying attention should have expected that as the XM17 has a safety so changes to the FCU were required to even submit for MHS.

Which brings up more questions... Why are people drop testing commercial P320s and assuming the safety issue is the same for the M17? Anyone drop test the M17 with a safety? On/off? How does that compare to the M9 (safety on/off, DA/SA)? M1911/A1? P226/M11 (DA/SA)?

I talked to someone once who swore his P226 nearly "killed him" when it fell off his nightstand. I love the P226 so I asked how this could have happened. Well he had it in SA (condition 0). What level of safety should a reasonable person expect in that case? Should the SEALs have ditched the P226 because of that?

Side note: I have never once in my life dropped a firearm. For a period of my life doing so would have earned me a much deserved ass kicking. I fell down some stairs once with a P226 in my hand. Didn't drop it. Finger off the trigger "rode" the stairs down on my ass/back. Other than bruises, fine. Outside of a combat/LE "hands on" situation I don't understand people dropping firearms.

"I was going to my vehicle and I dropped my weapon." Sorry to hear that officer, here's your last check and COBRA info.

And before you hate, ask what would happen if you AD/ND in your home.

[Skip]

At least the memes coming out of this are good...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UUdtyax4Q0I/WYpwGj7gTVI/AAAAAAABcvY/NO_ClAcR1aMTndl29cPDEZy2bE_yKC2wACLcBGAs/s1600/tumblr_oueavwzRQN1tdsx97o7_540.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AYsHS4yPv8A/WYpwGGEfuKI/AAAAAAABcvQ/PZxMTejljGYMq1nqET4Ft2O0DrgQFhG4ACLcBGAs/s1600/tumblr_oueavwzRQN1tdsx97o5_540.jpg

[hurley842002]

Outside of a combat/LE "hands on" situation I don't understand people dropping firearms.

Not everyone is mistake/accident free like you? I don't know, that's all I got.

Why do people get in car accidents? My 4,400lbs Xterra is more dangerous than any handgun. Perhaps I should reevaluate my gun ownership and gun carrying practice until I become accident free like yourself.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[.455_Hunter]

Just curious questions here...

Would fully cocked "normal" DA/SA guns like the 92, P226 or 5906 before able to fire in this fashion?

Looking at my above handguns this morning, I don't see how the trigger itself would be able to overcome the slack and spring resistance to overcome the sear release and firing pin safety, but one could have assumed the same about the P320 or the original SR9.

[Joe_K]

Now there's evidence of a bigger design flaw. The P320 can fire if a tap is given to the back of the slide.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[sellersm]

Now there's evidence of a bigger design flaw. The P320 can fire if a tap is given to the back of the slide.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

If this is indeed the case, it confirms what I was wondering. I was thinking that perhaps it was firing when dropped, *not* because of trigger movement but because of something in the slide/firing pin mechanism. But I'm not an engineer, just a software jockey... I haven't even slept in a Holiday Inn recently...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skip]

Not everyone is mistake/accident free like you? I don't know, that's all I got.

Why do people get in car accidents? My 4,400lbs Xterra is more dangerous than any handgun. Perhaps I should reevaluate my gun ownership and gun carrying practice until I become accident free like yourself.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

If you're accident prone, maybe you should.

The car analogy is cute but auto accidents are often the result of external factors. A person handling a weapon (outside of high stress) has no external factors to blame. Only himself. Or gravity. But the officer can't sue gravity.

ETA: I've taken no less than a dozen brand new shooters to the range over the years. Some family, friends or friends of friends. In a family shoot we'll have no less than 4-6 shooters sometimes sharing weapons.

Number of dropped firearms in my presence during this time: 0

[brutal]

Now there's evidence of a bigger design flaw. The P320 can fire if a tap is given to the back of the slide.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

By "tap," do you mean the gentleman on youtube that struck his with a (plastic) hammer?

I believe that's still the same inertia.

I don't believe the recent TFB video was the first to show this, but I can't find the other one at the moment - the guy's tags sucked and I didn't save the link.

[Joe_K]

By "tap," do you mean the gentleman on youtube that struck his with a (plastic) hammer?

I believe that's still the same inertia.

I don't believe the recent TFB video was the first to show this, but I can't find the other one at the moment - the guy's tags sucked and I didn't save the link.Yes.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[DenverGP]

I've seen at least one of the drop videos where you could see the trigger actually moving backwards on impact.

[spqrzilla]

I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone here believes that dropping a firearm does not happen, or only happens to careless or unlucky people. But even if that were in some reality, true, a firearm that is unlikely to fire when dropped is well within modern engineering capabilities and a feature that any sane person would insist upon.

[hurley842002]

I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone here believes that dropping a firearm does not happen, or only happens to careless or unlucky people. But even if that were in some reality, true, a firearm that is unlikely to fire when dropped is well within modern engineering capabilities and a feature that any sane person would insist upon.
Summed up my thoughts perfectly, that being said, I've had better days than today, so I'm bowing out of the discussion as to not hurt any feelings.

[Zundfolge]

Well I hereby offer to buy any unwanted P320s for $50ea ... I'll pay the transfer even.

[Skip]

I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone here believes that dropping a firearm does not happen, or only happens to careless or unlucky people. But even if that were in some reality, true, a firearm that is unlikely to fire when dropped is well within modern engineering capabilities and a feature that any sane person would insist upon.

It obviously happens
It has nothing to do with luck
Can you give me an example of a time when dropping a weapon (again, outside of high stress) is not careless?


I agree that being "drop safe" is a desirable feature. But no firearm is 100% foolproof and it gets harder while meeting requirements/expectations. Increase the P320 trigger weight to 10# and it would be safer. But no one wants a 10# striker.

Add a safety to Glock and you can help prevent "Glock leg." Does the market want a manual safety on their Glocks?

People hate the trigger on a Series 80 1911 (I do too). But that shitty trigger is from the plunger on the firing pin block which makes the weapon more safe.

[izzy]

It obviously happens
It has nothing to do with luck
Can you give me an example of a time when dropping a weapon (again, outside of high stress) is not careless?


I agree that being "drop safe" is a desirable feature. But no firearm is 100% foolproof and it gets harder while meeting requirements/expectations. Increase the P320 trigger weight to 10# and it would be safer. But no one wants a 10# striker.

Add a safety to Glock and you can help prevent "Glock leg." Does the market want a manual safety on their Glocks?

People hate the trigger on a Series 80 1911 (I do too). But that shitty trigger is from the plunger on the firing pin block which makes the weapon more safe.

I've seen people get a hot piece of brass land right in their eye protection and stick to the skin causing them to drop a pistol. I'd say that's bad luck.

EDIT: a person not people but you get the point

[Skip]

I've seen people get a hot piece of brass land right in their eye protection and stick to the skin causing them to drop a pistol. I'd say that's bad luck.

EDIT: a person not people but you get the point

That's bad training not bad luck.

[bellavite1]

Ok, guys.
I own a full size 320.
I attempted both tests.
The dropped gun did indeed release the striker at that angle, did not even have a full mag, BUT I had to drop it from above my head (I am 5' 8"), so, although I am not happy about sending my gun in, It is not going to "fire" unless I throw it in the air...I tried to drop it from normal shooting stance height and it did not go.
For the tap test, I inserted something behind the trigger to prevent any movement and it did not release the striker, not even using a big ol' mallet.
Send it in, get it fixed, get on with your life, it is still my favorite handgun.

[izzy]

That's bad training not bad luck.

More like a bad bounce off the wall at the range. I've had more than a few go down my shirt or land in my shoe.

[roberth]

Ok, guys.
I own a full size 320.
I attempted both tests.
The dropped gun did indeed release the striker at that angle, did not even have a full mag, BUT I had to drop it from above my head (I am 5' 8"), so, although I am not happy about sending my gun in, It is not going to "fire" unless I throw it in the air...I tried to drop it from normal shooting stance height and it did not go.
For the tap test, I inserted something behind the trigger to prevent any movement and it did not release the striker, not even using a big ol' mallet.
Send it in, get it fixed, get on with your life, it is still my favorite handgun.

Thank you.

[00tec]

There are many ways that a handgun can impact SOMETHING the fashion that sets this one off that do not include the owners negligence. Drops arent the only thing that can occur.

[hollohas]

More like a bad bounce off the wall at the range. I've had more than a few go down my shirt or land in my shoe.Did you drop your gun as a result? I've had hot brass from all sorts of guns go down all sorts of places. It's never caused me to lose control of my actions.

And no, I'm not saying only careless people drop guns. Accidents happen to everyone, it's nice to know if your gun will provide you with a little bit of forgiveness should a drop happen.

I will get my trigger upgraded, but I'm keeping my P320. I think Sig is doing right.

[izzy]

Did you drop your gun as a result? I've had hot brass from all sorts of guns go down all sorts of places. It's never caused me to lose control of my actions.

And no, I'm not saying only careless people drop guns. Accidents happen to everyone, it's nice to know if your gun will provide you with a little bit of forgiveness should a drop happen.

I will get my trigger upgraded, but I'm keeping my P320. I think Sig is doing right.

I didn't drop my gun no. I have seen it happen though.

[Rooskibar03]

*waiting patiently for massive clearance sales coupled with $100 manufacturer's rebate*

I'll pick up a 3rd one if that happens.

[Gman]

Now there's evidence of a bigger design flaw. The P320 can fire if a tap is given to the back of the slide.

http://youtu.be/ngtALzDAIcU

[Joe_K]

https://youtu.be/veI5NsDqG9E

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[Skip]

[snip vid]

[ROFL2]

---

If I own a trampoline, have I manufactured a machine gun?

http://i.imgur.com/9873cPi.jpg

[SuperiorDG]

My "drop" happened when I picked up my EDC in a loose G-Code IWB holster and it fell out. Needless to say I don't use that holster anymore.

[OldFogey]

Ordered one yesterday. Will see, but I don't plan on drop testing it.

I've had one for a while. Like it a lot. Haven't tried dropping it, though.

[Skip]

They just keep rolling in :)

https://i.imgur.com/677HvWi.jpg

[bellavite1]

BTW, since people seems to have "selective memory" :
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/08/20/recalled-already-new-glocks-less-perfection/
[Coffee]

[Jer]

BTW, since people seems to have "selective memory" :
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/08/20/recalled-already-new-glocks-less-perfection/
[Coffee]

Why does pointing out the inherent danger of a firearm that can fire when dropped make me a fan boy of any other firearm? Can't it come from a place of expecting my firearms to not do that?

These conversations always get so sideways from these childish manufacturer arguments.

The thing is unsafe. Period. Had nothing to do with Glock, S&W, HK or anyone else. The issue needs to be corrected. End of debate.

[bellavite1]

Why does pointing out the inherent danger of a firearm that can fire when dropped make me a fan bit of any other firearm? Can't it come from a place of expecting my firearms to not do that?

These conversations always get so sideways from these childish manufacturer arguments.

The thing is unsafe. Period. Had nothing to do with Glock, S&W, HK or anyone else. The issue needs to be corrected. End of debate.
...Too easy...
C'mon man, just messing with the Glock guys (not you specifically) ! [Beer]

[spqrzilla]

Can you give me an example of a time when dropping a weapon (again, outside of high stress) is not careless?

I think you rebutted yourself very effectively. And no, involuntary reactions are not "bad training".

Just unbelievable.... [fail]

[BushMasterBoy]

I bet somebody can fix it with duct tape.

[rondog]

*waiting patiently for massive clearance sales coupled with $100 manufacturer's rebate*

Likin' the way you're thinkin'.....

[SuperiorDG]

It appears Sig has pulled all P320 conversion kits off their website and they are out of the trigger up grades. Was there last week looking and they had a full selection.

[Zundfolge]

Looks like Apex has suspended sales of their P320 trigger.
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/gun-maintainence-tips/apex-customer-advisory-regarding-sig-sauer-p320-trigger-products/

[bellavite1]

I shipped back today my Gray Guns PELT.
They were very cool about it and will refund my purchase.

[Skip]

I think you rebutted yourself very effectively. And no, involuntary reactions are not "bad training".

Just unbelievable.... [fail]

What's unbelievable to me is the casualness with which some people argue this is okay.

A reflex response can and should be trained. I added the caveat of high stress because no level of training can prepare a person for every situation. If you don't know the difference, I can't help you.

Most of us here have been burnt by cases; face, arms, shirt, etc... Shoot long enough and it happens. We all have stories, I can tell more but you'll ignore. Again, never dropped a firearm.

I don't understand someone, particularly professional LE, walking in a parking lot and dropping a firearm.

KB, I completely understand. Hands on in a fight, I get it. Get shot, run over, stabbed, etc and it makes sense. Would never be critical in those situations.

If I'm on a range and someone drops a firearm, I'm gone, assuming RSO doesn't pull them immediately. If someone I know does it, it's one-on-one time before I shoot with them again.

Any of you Army, Navy, Air Force vets believe dropping a firearm is okay?


Maybe my experiences are just unique?



I shipped back today my Gray Guns PELT.
They were very cool about it and will refund my purchase.

Bruce is a good guy and runs a great company. One of the few not to sell out for money even when he was seriously ill a few years back. I have several of his guide rods. I hope he's doing well since Sig pulled them into the Legion series.

Though I wonder if his enhancements don't make this problem worse? As Superior said, you can't find parts and Gray Guns is OOS (but I would bet they pulled them).

[davsel]

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Glock-Cooked-Roasted-Sig-Sauer-P320.jpg

[Joe_K]

Work around firearms long enough and you will see all manner of stupid shit and stupid people. Guns of all kinds get dropped, thrown, or knocked out if the hands of newbs to experienced and well trained individuals. Slings break, holsters break, hands get cold, wet and slippery from sweat, blood, oil, mud, sunscreen. People get stung by insects, have a severe negative medical experience,(heart attack, stroke, seizure, pass out from dehydration etc), cases fall open, Ive seen high winds pick up mats or target sheets pick them up and fling firearms onto concrete, firearm racks break etc. Its simply a matter of when.

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[Skip]

[snip pic]

[ROFL2]

At least there's fun to be had.



Work around firearms long enough and you will see all manner of stupid shit and stupid people. Guns of all kinds get dropped, thrown, or knocked out if the hands of newbs to experienced and well trained individuals. Slings break, holsters break, hands get cold, wet and slippery from sweat, blood, oil, mud, sunscreen. People get stung by insects, have a severe negative medical experience,(heart attack, stroke, seizure, pass out from dehydration etc), cases fall open, Ive seen high winds pick up mats or target sheets pick them up and fling firearms onto concrete, firearm racks break etc. Its simply a matter of when.

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I would never judge someone who had a medical condition. That's fully understandable IMHO.

Cases, racked weapons hitting the deck not ideal but provided they were stored/racked correctly not a big deal.

[Gman]

Looks like Apex has suspended sales of their P320 trigger.
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/gun-maintainence-tips/apex-customer-advisory-regarding-sig-sauer-p320-trigger-products/
Yep, I got an email from Apex today;

Temporary Suspension Of
Apex Sig P320 Triggers


Please discontinue using or carrying your Sig P320 pistol equipped with the Apex Curved Advanced Trigger.




Due to Sig Sauer’s recently announced “voluntary upgrade” of the Sig Sauer P320 pistol, announced on August 8, 2017, Apex, out of an abundance of caution, has chosen until further notice to suspend sales of those aftermarket trigger products specifically designed for use in the Sig Sauer P320.

Additionally, for those customers that have purchased an Apex Curved Advanced Trigger (part #112-022), due to how closely the Curved Advanced Trigger’s design reflects that of the current Sig Sauer stock factory trigger, we are asking customers to stop using this trigger and to please contact Apex Customer Service at (623) 322-0200 or guns@apextactical.com to return the trigger in exchange for credit towards any one of our Apex products.
Regarding the Apex Flat Advanced Trigger (part #112-021), and the Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhancement Trigger (part #112-020), Apex engineers have conducted controlled drop tests at the -30 degree angle with each of these flat triggers and have not had a discharge occur. HOWEVER, because this is too small a sample, and due to the fact that Sig Sauer has indicated that its voluntary upgrade will include more than just the trigger, we advise caution and warn against accepting the use of either of these two Apex triggers as solutions to the factory drop safe issue. THEY ARE NOT.

If you own and have installed an Apex aftermarket trigger for your P320, and in light of the recent announcement from Sig Sauer you feel it is unsafe to use, please discontinue using or carrying your pistol immediately.

[brutal]

71640

[SuperiorDG]

Okay its Monday, any word yet what the solution will be?

[izzy]

Okay its Monday, any word yet what the solution will be?

I read this weekend that they're putting the M17 trigger group into the p230s as a fix.

[SuperiorDG]

I read this weekend that they're putting the M17 trigger group into the p230s as a fix.

I guess that means the thumb safety as well. That sucks, wonder if there is an option to just return the damn thing.

[brutal]

I guess that means the thumb safety as well. That sucks, wonder if there is an option to just return the damn thing.

No safety.

Read the Soldier Systems article.

[brutal]

I read this weekend that they're putting the M17 trigger group into the p230s as a fix.

According to the soldier Systems article, the trigger and striker assembly, plus a disconnector. No safety. Requires smith work to the gun to fit the new parts.

Looks like the Glock guys get their dingledongle after all.

[hollohas]

Sig was supposed to publish the process owners need to take to get the fix today. I haven't seen it yet...

[Rooskibar03]

Sig was supposed to publish the process owners need to take to get the fix today. I haven't seen it yet...

Its up on Sig site. https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program-2/

I'd expect a long wait. Not doing either of mine.

[bellavite1]

I would assume that not getting the upgrade would open the floodgates of hell should something ever happen (never say never...)

Its up on Sig site. https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program-2/

I'd expect a long wait. Not doing either of mine.

[ray1970]

Its up on Sig site. https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program-2/



"Page not found".

Sig must be rethinking what it is they want to do.

[.455_Hunter]

"Page not found".

Sig must be rethinking what it is they want to do.

Scrap the design and send everybody a P22X of their choice?

[Skip]

"Page not found".

Sig must be rethinking what it is they want to do.

From what I'm hearing, they're swamped.

[SuperiorDG]

https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program/

Here it is.

[bellavite1]

It may take a while...

[Aloha_Shooter]

Any of you Army, Navy, Air Force vets believe dropping a firearm is okay?

Is it okay? No. Does it happen? Yes. The firearm should be designed to against commonplace incidents and a falling firearm falls into that category IMO. If it didn't, the military wouldn't have drop tests in the first place. This incident shows they should have additional drop tests spec'ed not that the drop tests conducted by others are irrelevant. Do you think Sig would be SO quick to stop sales if they didn't recognize a design flaw? Do you think Glock would tweak Sig the way they have if they thought there was a chance their guns would fire under the same conditions? It sounds from the descriptions like someone forgot to calculate the momentum of the trigger -- if that's all it is, lightening the mass of the trigger should address the problem.

Seriously, the denialism here is like Hillary supporters who think she won the election.

[Duman]

Well....... [beatdeadhorse]

[Skip]

Is it okay? No. Does it happen? Yes. The firearm should be designed to against commonplace incidents and a falling firearm falls into that category IMO. If it didn't, the military wouldn't have drop tests in the first place. This incident shows they should have additional drop tests spec'ed not that the drop tests conducted by others are irrelevant. Do you think Sig would be SO quick to stop sales if they didn't recognize a design flaw? Do you think Glock would tweak Sig the way they have if they thought there was a chance their guns would fire under the same conditions? It sounds from the descriptions like someone forgot to calculate the momentum of the trigger -- if that's all it is, lightening the mass of the trigger should address the problem.

Seriously, the denialism here is like Hillary supporters who think she won the election.

XM17 <> P320

The hysteria is over a weapon that never (technically) went through the MHS trials. Shame on Sig if they knew this was a weakness which they chose to address in the XM17 but not the P320.

[SuperiorDG]

Just got this. What a pain in the A$$

Dear XXXXXX,
You are receiving this notice because you recently purchased an Apex Tactical trigger for the Sig P320 pistol (MidwayUSA product numbers 686935, 293153, 972729).

Due to Sig Sauer’s recently-announced voluntary upgrade of the Sig P320 pistol, Apex Tactical has suspended sales of their Sig P320 aftermarket triggers. Apex Tactical asks Customers who have purchased an Apex Sig P320 Trigger to stop using the trigger and to please contact Apex Tactical Customer Service at (623) 322-0200 to return the trigger in exchange for credit towards any other Apex product.

We apologize for the inconvenience,
MidwayUSA Customer Service

[Aloha_Shooter]

XM17 <> P320

The hysteria is over a weapon that never (technically) went through the MHS trials. Shame on Sig if they knew this was a weakness which they chose to address in the XM17 but not the P320.

Hmmm ... the hysteria I see is over a the P320. The thread title is about the P320. You're the one injecting the XM17 into this and then asking vets if it was okay for weapons to be dropped. Bottom line, there appears to be a fundamental design error in the P320. Sig is addressing it but the fact remains the P320 can exhibit ADs that other similar striker-fired pistols do not.

[Skip]

Hmmm ... the hysteria I see is over a the P320. The thread title is about the P320. You're the one injecting the XM17 into this and then asking vets if it was okay for weapons to be dropped. Bottom line, there appears to be a fundamental design error in the P320. Sig is addressing it but the fact remains the P320 can exhibit ADs that other similar striker-fired pistols do not.

I interpreted this...


Is it okay? No. Does it happen? Yes. The firearm should be designed to against commonplace incidents and a falling firearm falls into that category IMO. If it didn't, the military wouldn't have drop tests in the first place. This incident shows they should have additional drop tests spec'ed not that the drop tests conducted by others are irrelevant.

[snip]

... as more confusion between the testing the military did for the MHS on the XM17 and the commercial P320. The "they" isn't clear to me within the context of military testing if it didn't mean military.

AFAIK there is no industry respected independent laboratory for commercial firearms testing. Maybe there should be? But that would only highlight the differences between military testing and others which are being ignored.

[davsel]

http://americanshootingjournal.com/so-it-begins-sig-sauer-p320-voluntary-upgrade-program/


Yes, Sig Sauer will replace every P320 trigger, sear, and striker assembly in the wild. In addition, every slide and frame in every caliber must be machined to fit the new parts.


Based on SIG’s disclosure that the company’s shipped 500,000 P320’s, our back-of-the-envelope estimate says the program could cost SIG as much as $30m if we assume the cost of parts, labor, and postage for each pistol is around $65. Add to that the cost of administering the voluntary upgrade program.

[CS1983]

^ ouch

[Skip]

$60 per gun... I think that might be low.

I'm betting people are not getting their exact slides and frames back.

[Rooskibar03]

$60 per gun... I think that might be low.

I'm betting people are not getting their exact slides and frames back.

All the more reason mine won't be going back. Magwell, sites, trigger, magazine release are all aftermarket.

[Joe_K]

All the more reason mine won't be going back. Magwell, sites, trigger, magazine release are all aftermarket.The Frame/Chassis is the serialized part of the handgun on the P 320, the slide I believe is serialized to the frame as well
Sig has had enough bad PR without them swapping folks slides, and grips around. I would be suprised if they didn't do these one at a time.

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[hurley842002]

The Frame/Chassis is the serialized part of the handgun on the P 320, the slide I believe is serialized to the frame as well
Sig has had enough bad PR without them swapping folks slides, and grips around. I would be suprised if they didn't do these one at a time.

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I thought the trigger mechanism was the serialized part on the 320, and you could buy a new frame for $44 on Sigs website?

[Joe_K]

I thought the trigger mechanism was the serialized part on the 320, and you could buy a new frame for $44 on Sigs website?The trigger group=frame= chassis. The grip is non serialized and can be purchased for sub $50.

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[Rooskibar03]

I thought the trigger mechanism was the serialized part on the 320, and you could buy a new frame for $44 on Sigs website?

Correct. The "firearm" is the trigger assembly and the rest is unmarked parts.

[ray1970]

Just got this. What a pain in the A$$

Dear XXXXXX,
You are receiving this notice because you recently purchased an Apex Tactical trigger for the Sig P320 pistol (MidwayUSA product numbers 686935, 293153, 972729).

Due to Sig Sauer’s recently-announced voluntary upgrade of the Sig P320 pistol, Apex Tactical has suspended sales of their Sig P320 aftermarket triggers. Apex Tactical asks Customers who have purchased an Apex Sig P320 Trigger to stop using the trigger and to please contact Apex Tactical Customer Service at (623) 322-0200 to return the trigger in exchange for credit towards any other Apex product.

We apologize for the inconvenience,
MidwayUSA Customer Service

I missed this post. I have one of the P320 Apex triggers sitting around. Maybe I can trade it in for something else.

[Skip]

I don't know if this vid is legit, but the video claims this is the "fix"...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BX9deSBBmWa/

(I don't know how to embed Instagram, but vid is SFW [just images of the frame/slide])


Claims a much heavier, gritty trigger pull.

Like I said pages back... Heavier trigger = greater margin of safety. The market didn't want this and I suspect the commercial P320 is now dead.

[Aloha_Shooter]

$60 per gun... I think that might be low.

I'm betting people are not getting their exact slides and frames back.

Does it much matter as long as they are getting back working firearms that won't AD as shown on the various tests and that have the correct serial numbers as well as any aftermarket equipment the owners had installed?


All the more reason mine won't be going back. Magwell, sites, trigger, magazine release are all aftermarket.

That's certainly your choice but making a conscious decision to NOT participate in a safety recall will likely affect the liabilities if something DOES happen. What would be the problem if the fix included a new frame or slide but they put all your aftermarket equipment back on and the weapon you got back had the correct (same) serial number as what you sent in?


The Frame/Chassis is the serialized part of the handgun on the P 320, the slide I believe is serialized to the frame as well
Sig has had enough bad PR without them swapping folks slides, and grips around. I would be suprised if they didn't do these one at a time.

I'm not with the ATF or a lawyer but as the manufacturer who is responsible for keeping track of the serial numbers, wouldn't they be able to swap the slide and/or frame with the correct (old) serial number then destroy the old part?

I must be missing something because I don't understand why people are freaking out over THIS part of the problem instead of the fact the gun can fire when bumped. So many of us have spouted the mantra, "there's no such thing as an accidental discharge, just negligent ones" that I wouldn't have expected all the denialism about the P320's potential for ADs. Would we then classify any drop-fires or slide-bump fires by owners who DIDN'T send their pieces in to be fixed as NDs?

[Gman]

Claims a much heavier, gritty trigger pull.
I would be totally shocked by that. [Sarcasm2]

[Skip]

Does it much matter as long as they are getting back working firearms that won't AD as shown on the various tests and that have the correct serial numbers as well as any aftermarket equipment the owners had installed?

[snip]

I must be missing something because I don't understand why people are freaking out over THIS part of the problem instead of the fact the gun can fire when bumped. So many of us have spouted the mantra, "there's no such thing as an accidental discharge, just negligent ones" that I wouldn't have expected all the denialism about the P320's potential for ADs. Would we then classify any drop-fires or slide-bump fires by owners who DIDN'T send their pieces in to be fixed as NDs?

Why would it matter? Because some people will have guns that don't have the tossed down the driveway look from all the YouTube vid "testing."

[Coffee]


But seriously, there is probably different wear and handling. And some people like to customize their guns. It's just another thing that will piss people off over the whole thing. Sig has really screwed the pooch and apparently is into that kind of thing because they keep doing it.

And the P320 doesn't fire when "bumped." It's taking a hell of lot more to AD these guns like smacking it with a hammer five times in the right spot.

[Gunner]

Instead of starting anew thread, i figured this might fit in here. I got an offer for a p320 Compact for my G26 gen 4. The Sig hasnt been "fixed". Would it not be smart thing to make that trade? I've never owned a Sig 320. So I might get it and not like it and Im worried I would be stuck with it since it hasn't been sent back to Sig

[Skip]

Instead of starting anew thread, i figured this might fit in here. I got an offer for a p320 Compact for my G26 gen 4. The Sig hasnt been "fixed". Would it not be smart thing to make that trade? I've never owned a Sig 320. So I might get it and not like it and Im worried I would be stuck with it since it hasn't been sent back to Sig

If the concern was based on the actual scope of the problem, I wouldn't have a problem with that trade. Understanding that the trigger might change after it's been sent back.

But since people are freaking out, I wouldn't go near a P320. We have no idea what the market will do with used P320s (corrected or not). Like you said, who knows if you can trade it off if you don't like it.

[Rooskibar03]

Instead of starting anew thread, i figured this might fit in here. I got an offer for a p320 Compact for my G26 gen 4. The Sig hasnt been "fixed". Would it not be smart thing to make that trade? I've never owned a Sig 320. So I might get it and not like it and Im worried I would be stuck with it since it hasn't been sent back to Sig

I have one in my bag or on my hip at all times. Couldn’t convince me to carry anything else. No one has had the recall done, Sig is still ramping up to start the work.

Guns are a personal preference. I love the way a 320 feels in my hand. In fact I did some dry fire the other night with my 17 and I had to push myself to use it. Its a fine weapon but I much prefer the 310 feel in my hand.

[Skip]

[ROFL2]

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1213/0222/products/no_drop_ur_sig-mens_tees--black.png

https://shop.asmdss.com/products/no-drop-ur-sig?variant=48281373332

[Joe_K]

The bottom line is Sig dropped the ball. It's 2017, a dropped firearm is inherently dangerous, buying or owning a supposedly duty grade handgun for self defense that can easily discharge itself when dropped does not seem to be a very prudent choice.

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[bellavite1]

Well, mine is back from Sig.
It took exactly 2 weeks from shipping date.
The trigger feels a little heavier, but it still shoots like a dream!
Smooth, no over travel to speak of, it does require a full travel of the slide to reset the striker.
I LOVE IT!

[hollohas]

Shipped mine off to them on 1/17 and it's on its way back to me now. Pretty quick turn around.

[wyome]

Guess itz time to ship mine out too