View Full Version : Diesel pickups are for chumps
Glass is underrated, I think it's awesome.
You once owned a Pacer, admit it.
I'm upset that I can't remember the model of that car. I do dislike sunroofs (and my Amigo has two!), but it was more about the swooping lines I was thinking were the opposite of the boxy Bollinger.
The SVX?
Or less sporty, like the Justy?
http://youtu.be/izYQ6ztcflQ
CHP: Drunk driver slept while Tesla appeared to drive Hwy 101 on autopilot (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/chp-drunk-driver-slept-while-tesla-appeared-to-drive-hwy-101-on-autopilot/ar-BBQjSf1)
When a pair of California Highway Patrol officers pulled alongside a car cruising down Highway 101 in Redwood City before dawn Friday, they reported a shocking sight: a man fast asleep behind the wheel.
The car was a Tesla, the man was a Los Altos planning commissioner, and the ensuing freeway stop turned into a complex, seven-minute operation in which the officers had to outsmart the vehicle’s autopilot system because the driver was unresponsive, according to the CHP.
The arrest of 45-year-old Alexander Samek on suspicion of drunken driving reignited questions about the uses, and potential abuses, of self-driving technology.
Reached by phone Friday afternoon, Samek, a real estate developer who runs the Kor Group, said, “I can’t talk right now,” before hanging up.
Officers observed Samek’s gray Tesla Model S around 3:30 a.m. as it sped south at 70 mph on Highway 101 near Whipple Avenue, said Art Montiel, a CHP spokesman. When officers pulled up next to the car, they allegedly saw Samek asleep, but the car was moving straight, leading them to believe it was in autopilot mode.
The officers slowed the car down after running a traffic break, with an officer behind Samek turning on emergency lights before driving across all lanes of the highway, in an S-shaped path, to slow traffic down behind the Tesla, Montiel said.
He said another officer drove a patrol car directly in front of Samek before gradually slowing down, prompting the Tesla to slow down as well and eventually come to a stop in the middle of the highway, north of the Embarcadero exit in Palo Alto — about 7 miles from where the stop was initiated.
Authorities said the entire operation took about seven minutes.
Officers then walked up to the Tesla and “attempted to wake up Samek by knocking on the window and giving verbal commands,” Montiel said. “After Samek woke up and got out of the Tesla, he was placed in the back of the patrol car and taken off the freeway.”
At a nearby gas station, Montiel said, Samek was given a field sobriety test before being arrested.
Tesla, whose autopilot technology assists in steering, changing lanes and parking, has seen its vehicles involved in several notable accidents in the last few years.
In 2016, a man was killed in Florida after the Model S he was driving collided with a tractor trailer while the Tesla was in autopilot mode. In January, a man was arrested on suspicion of driving under the influence on the Bay Bridge. He told officers he had been using his Tesla’s autopilot mode. Also this year, a man driving a Model X on Highway 101 in Mountain View was killed after his vehicle, which was in autopilot mode, struck a concrete divider.
The company declined to comment on Friday’s incident.
On its website, Tesla notes that its autopilot technology is not synonymous with self-driving cars or autonomous vehicles, and that drivers must keep their hands on the wheel at all times.
William Riggs, a professor of transportation, technology and engineering at the University of San Francisco, said most cars have some variation of autonomous features, and as the technology advances, people will feel more comfortable being distracted when driving.
“The software and technology is so good that humans are going to violate it,” Riggs said. “The future of autonomy really invites a lot of opportunities to disengage from the driving activity as we see more and more AI in control of vehicles.”
John Simpson, privacy and technology project director with Consumer Watchdog, saw Friday’s incident as further evidence of Tesla drivers being inappropriately led to believe the autopilot function is akin to fully autonomous driving.
In May, Simpson’s organization and the Center for Auto Safety asked the Federal Trade Commission to investigate “deceptive and unfair” practices in the advertising and marketing of the autopilot feature.
“They’ve really unconscionably led people to believe, I think, that the car is far more capable of self-driving than actually is the case. That’s a huge problem,” Simpson said. “In this case, it sounds as if it played out with some incredible work by the state police — the Highway Patrol — to get the car to stop. But it’s really amazing they were able to do that.”
Jim McPherson, a Bay Area attorney and industry analyst, said the autopilot feature is supposed to cut out if the driver doesn’t keep a hand on the wheel and exert “a minimal amount of torque.”
“But the length of the warning is variable. It could be a few seconds, it could be a minute or two,” McPherson said. “It’s really quite a miracle that this guy continued for 7 miles without autopilot cutting out.”
McPherson said he would expect the autopilot system to have alerted the driver to keep his hands on the wheel.
“Also, if he’s asleep, any more than a slight nudge of the wheel or touch of the pedal is going to cancel autopilot,” McPherson said. “So for it to get as far as it did, it’s a surprise to me.”
Riggs said the best time to use autopilot technology is during long highway trips, but those situations also pose hazards because drivers are usually less engaged than they would be in more urban settings.
“You’re more likely to have a distracted driver,” he said. “That can create a false sense of security.”
As the technology advances, many experts argue that having more autonomous vehicles on the road will lead to safer driving and fewer collisions. However, the technological progression must be accompanied by policies that clearly dictate when drivers should take the wheel, Riggs said.
“We haven’t really grappled yet with policing what happens in the vehicle,” he said. “If we throw people in vehicles and assume they don’t have to be operators, that should be transparent to them.”
YES
I knew someone that had one (those partial windows were a trip). The ECU went out and the replacement part was insanely expensive at the time.
That's pretty interesting. If it was in auto-pilot, I wonder what it did that attracted police attention in the first place. Seems like the auto pilot would be a blessing for drunk drivers hoping to make it home under the radar.
CHP: Drunk driver slept while Tesla appeared to drive Hwy 101 on autopilot (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/chp-drunk-driver-slept-while-tesla-appeared-to-drive-hwy-101-on-autopilot/ar-BBQjSf1)
Just more FUD from the MSM.
That's not how Autopilot works on Tesla vehicles so I don't see how this is even possible how it's presented. Cars are prohibited at the Federal level from being fully autonomous which forces manufacturers like Tesla to put safeguards in that require input from the driver assuring the car is "assisting" the driver. One such example is that the car has to sense minimal resistance on the steering wheel every 30 seconds or so or it will warn you with flashing lights & a reminder, then an audible cue while lowering stereo volume and finally complete disengagement and inability to activate for the remainder of that drive. It's not possible to be "fast asleep" as reported here for more than thirty seconds or so with Autopilot engaged.
I also love how they say that Autopilot has had "numerous accidents in the last few years" trying to plant little seeds of doubt at every turn with no comparison data to cars w/o Autopilot.
So if it's not 100% accident free it's a complete failure? Never mind that vehicles on autopilot have proven to be far safer than vehicles not on autopilot. One accident happens and the MSM makes it sound like these things are driving everyone into walls or intentionally killing them. Much like firearms they don't report the stories of all of the lives saved and countless accidents avoided as a direct result of cars being on Autopilot. There's several videos online that are montages of cars avoiding accidents due to Autopilot. None of that gets talked about though because we all know that negativity and sensationalism is what drives clicks just like this horse shit "article"" posted here.
Back to this "news report" link. If this story is legit as reported (which it isn't) would we all be safer if the guy didn't have Autopilot? This idea that Autopilot somehow caused him to drive is BS because even if he had a Ford Taurus he would have still drove home. That's what stupid drunks do. Even if the story was accurate as reported it just means that whatever drivers or pedestrians were near this car that night were all safer as a direct result of Autopilot.
Some on this forum are so sharp to how the MSM pushes agendas when it comes to firearms & negativity but then are blind to these exact same tactics in other segments.
So what you're saying Jer is that it's impossible for this guy to pass out with one hand on the wheel?
Where's the diesel pickups @ in this thread
BladesNBarrels
12-02-2018, 12:35
Where's the diesel pickups @ in this thread
In the title!
[facepalm]
In the title!
[facepalm]
Winner! [LOL]
So what you're saying Jer is that it's impossible for this guy to pass out with one hand on the wheel?
Is it impossible? No. Is it next to impossible to pass out with his hand on the wheel in a manner that was causing the car to sense JUST the right amount of resistance to prevent the system from shutting off while not putting TOO much resistance against the wheel to cause it to shut off? You do the math.
Keep in mind, there is no sensor within the steering wheel that senses pressure. The car actually senses resistance against it automatically manipulating the wheel. There is a VERY thin line between sensing resistance to keep Autopilot enabled and too much resistance which would be like tapping the brake on a car with standard cruise control. If you "take over" at any point it disables Auto Steer which is one of the components of Autopilot.
If you've ever driven one of these and experienced how Autopilot works you'd know that this story is pure BS. Much like negative firearms stories, a lot of these "articles" are written from a place of pure ignorance to how any of it actually works and instead on what they saw in movies/TV or heard from a guy who knows a guy.
What if a fat guys belly was pressing up on the wheel?
68Charger
12-02-2018, 14:20
I'm just going to say the roads would be SAFEST with asshats like this guy's license being revoked.
I'm not going to entertain any arguement a that defends them using autopilot as a DUI defense.
Not until it's legal to be asleep at the wheel.
I'm sure a properly motivated person could find ways around the autopilot "safeguards". Just so long as they know they breaking the law. If an accident occurs while illegally on AP, then they could face much stiffer penalties including possible jail time (depending on the severity of the accident).
Whether on autopilot or not, they are legaly responsible.
Whether on autopilot or not, they are legaly responsible.
I couldn't agree more and this is the part that most people continue missing & MSM does a good job of avoiding discussing otherwise their stories would be too cut and dry to sensationalize.
Autopilot or not YOU are still responsible for your actions and the actions of the car you are driving. Blaming Autopilot for anything is just as dumb as blaming cruise control which seems idiotic in 2018 but when it was introduced a lot of people tried the "cruise control did it" defense before people realized that doesn't work. Autopilot is the same damn thing.
Is it impossible? No. Is it next to impossible to pass out with his hand on the wheel in a manner that was causing the car to sense JUST the right amount of resistance to prevent the system from shutting off while not putting TOO much resistance against the wheel to cause it to shut off? You do the math.
Keep in mind, there is no sensor within the steering wheel that senses pressure. The car actually senses resistance against it automatically manipulating the wheel. There is a VERY thin line between sensing resistance to keep Autopilot enabled and too much resistance which would be like tapping the brake on a car with standard cruise control. If you "take over" at any point it disables Auto Steer which is one of the components of Autopilot.
If you've ever driven one of these and experienced how Autopilot works you'd know that this story is pure BS. Much like negative firearms stories, a lot of these "articles" are written from a place of pure ignorance to how any of it actually works and instead on what they saw in movies/TV or heard from a guy who knows a guy.
Yet, these things exist...
https://www.autopilotbuddy.com
You can defeat the "pressure" sense with an orange.
I'm not saying that the DUI was purely on autopilot, but it is fairly simple to get around the need to have your hand on the wheel.
Yet, these things exist...
https://www.autopilotbuddy.com
You can defeat the "pressure" sense with an orange.
I'm not saying that the DUI was purely on autopilot, but it is fairly simple to get around the need to have your hand on the wheel.
No, you can't because there isn't one. Defeating the nanny with an orange was urban legend aka Fake News that has been tested and debunked countless times since it surfaced.
Again, it doesn't sense pressure on the steering wheel at all. It senses rotational resistance at the steering wheel hub. It requires occasional light physical resistance (too much will cancel Auto Steer as stated previously) to the automatic steering wheel inputs the computer is doing in order to keep you in the lane.
It was thought that possibly early on the orange offered enough weight off-center to give enough resistance but this was never even confirmed by a trustworthy source. Even if it did exist the sensing algorithm was updated at some point to be able to tell the difference if it was even ever a thing which most are in agreement that it wasn't at all.
No, you can't because there isn't one. Defeating the nanny with an orange was urban legend aka Fake News that has been tested and debunked countless times since it surfaced.
Again, it doesn't sense pressure on the steering wheel at all. It senses rotational resistance at the steering wheel hub. It requires occasional light physical resistance (too much will cancel Auto Steer as stated previously) to the automatic steering wheel inputs the computer is doing in order to keep you in the lane.
It was thought that possibly early on the orange offered enough weight off-center to give enough resistance but this was never even confirmed by a trustworthy source. Even if it did exist the sensing algorithm was updated at some point to be able to tell the difference if it was even ever a thing which most are in agreement that it wasn't at all.
Urban myth that an off center weight can be used to defeat the safeties? Enough to get the NHTSA involved to ban the autopilot buddy? (That has now relaunched as a "cell phone holder")
I understand that you are passionate about defending Tesla from haters, but you have to admit that some of this is possible.
Urban myth that an off center weight can be used to defeat the safeties? Enough to get the NHTSA involved to ban the autopilot buddy? (That has now relaunched as a "cell phone holder")
I understand that you are passionate about defending Tesla from haters, but you have to admit that some of this is possible.
I didn't say it wasn't at some point but we're past that point. I'm also aware that the NHTSA got involved but it doesn't change the fact that the device doesn't work the same that jamming an orange in the corner of your steering wheel doesn't work.
We're getting off on a tangent here though.
Did this guy who was allegedly asleep at the wheel for 7+ minutes have one of these Autopilot Buddy devices? Still not sure why we even got derailed on the subject because I don't see as it applies to this story that smells of bovine excrement.
Also, I'm not necessarily a passionate Tesla apologist I just tend to oppose blatant false information of any subject being presented as fact. It just happens there is a lot of that going on 'round these parts against Tesla specifically. Prime example is a thread where we're discussing the merits of EV power and larger pick-up trucks and someone just drops in this "news" story and presents it as fact. It doesn't help these sorts of conversations.
Yet, these things exist...
https://www.autopilotbuddy.com
You can defeat the "pressure" sense with an orange.
I'm not saying that the DUI was purely on autopilot, but it is fairly simple to get around the need to have your hand on the wheel.
I like the part that says " for track use only" ha ha ha.
68Charger
12-02-2018, 20:12
I'd be up for a new reality show where the challenge is to be given someone's Tesla for a week and the win is to deliver it with a few bags of sand in ther drivers seat (unmanned) to the owner's house (out front, not IN it). With this kind of tech, you can do mechanical, electrionic, and software hacks... sounds like it would be fun to watch.
I'm sure somebody will say it's impossible, but there are devices out there for "testing" GPS... they can send whatever you want to a GPS receiver (albeit illegally)...
OtterbatHellcat
12-02-2018, 23:55
You once owned a Pacer, admit it.
It was a Pinto Wagon, with flames on it, dammit.
*not really, I never owned a Pinto Wagon, but it was fun for reading purposes*
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-03-2018, 06:26
What can the Bollinger do better than, or out perform, the F250
Personally, I like the modularity of it. It is both pickup and SUV.
The size is probably just right, having driven a 1-ton CTD for > 10 years. I don?t really want to go back to that right now.
The spartan interior is both turn on and turn off.
But yeah, that price tag probably kills the idea. Will it be on the Tesla service network? Or charging?
No idea. I want one, and I?m maybe a buyer in the low 50s....but not at 80K for sure.
That said, academic. I?d gone through about 6 cars in 5 years and my wife has us on a bit of a trading moratorium!
encorehunter
12-03-2018, 07:29
I really like the idea of the EV pickup. The biggest problem i see in my area is the electric grid. How do they handle power surhes and brown outs during charging? Once or twice a month, we wake up to clocks flashing, more so in winter. We only have one charge station here in Trinidad that I know of, so the remote areas do have some catch up to do with charging stations.
My CTD is getting around 16mpg in town, around 19 mpg on the highway. Much better than the older one. I can see using the EV around town, but an AWD or 4wd would be required.
My trucks get covered in mud a lot just by leaving the house and going home. I've always been told dirt and dust is death to electric motors. Maybe in 15 years when I'm ready for another new truck, there will be more support and more questions answered.
I'd be up for a new reality show where the challenge is to be given someone's Tesla for a week and the win is to deliver it with a few bags of sand in ther drivers seat (unmanned) to the owner's house (out front, not IN it). With this kind of tech, you can do mechanical, electrionic, and software hacks... sounds like it would be fun to watch.
I'm sure somebody will say it's impossible, but there are devices out there for "testing" GPS... they can send whatever you want to a GPS receiver (albeit illegally)...
Already been done. Earlier this year a group was able to get an unoccupied Tesla Model 3 to set a hypermiling record on a track in Germany.
https://insideevs.com/driverless-tesla-model-3-sets-new-hypermiling-recod/
Urban myth that an off center weight can be used to defeat the safeties? Enough to get the NHTSA involved to ban the autopilot buddy? (That has now relaunched as a "cell phone holder")
I understand that you are passionate about defending Tesla from haters, but you have to admit that some of this is possible.
Not sure that I get the objection to Tesla on the basis that some people are deliberately misusing their vehicles. Seems a bit like blaming a gun company when one of their firearms are used to commit a crime.
Not sure that I get the objection to Tesla on the basis that some people are deliberately misusing their vehicles. Seems a bit like blaming a gun company when one of their firearms are used to commit a crime.
I'm not knocking Tesla, nor blaming them for anything. I have no issue with them whatsoever. I was simply pointing out that there are workarounds for the safeties on the autopilot and that sleepy DUI guy is plausible.
I want to know what activity got him the attention in the first place.
Great-Kazoo
12-03-2018, 17:26
I want to know what activity got him the attention in the first place.
Posting on a local forum, probably.
Fast and Furious X: EV Drift.
The Bollinger is cool, mostly. Looks like the cut and pasted the original Land Rover idea. Those trucks saw as many configurations as any vehicle. Small pick ups. all the way up to Suburban sized SUVs. There was even a three axle version.
As brought up by another, I wonder about the power grid. I also wonder about the tiered pricing of power. Makes solar become more attractive. Recently read about Australia's power system being less than reliable and extremely expensive. I also want to remind folks that that along time ago refineries used to burn propane to get rid of it. And natural gas was almost free. The extra demand for Kilowatts is going to really give them a reason to raise prices. Probably blame it on infrastructure upgrades, and they'd be correct.
What can the Bollinger do better than, or out perform, the F250
Better acceleration, all torque on demand instantly, more storage space, modular design, lower cost of ownership due to the drive train being simpler and more robust, and you can fill it up essentially for free by charging it from a solar panel system.
and you can fill it up essentially for free by charging it from a solar panel system.
Not much of a plus when you take the price of the solar panel into consideration. Could probably buy the equipment to make your own diesel and run a diesel for cheaper than panels and batteries.
Faraday
If you're talking about Faraday Future, they're basically a fraudulent company that has just enough visibility to separate investors from their money while sending EV technology and knowhow to China.
Lately they've had terrible cash flow issues and have had to lay off and furlough a large number of employees.
Not much of a plus when you take the price of the solar panel into consideration. Could probably buy the equipment to make your own diesel and run a diesel for cheaper than panels and batteries.
Prices on solar panel-based systems have been steadily dropping for a decade and have already hit commodity price levels in some areas, with a lot of systems being somewhat affordable for middle-middle class and upper-middle class folks. So far as I've seen, the expectation is for this trend to continue for the forseeable future.
Distilling your own diesel isn't really worth the cost; you end up with a higher cost per gallon than just going down to the local gas station.
On top of that, a whole-home solar-power system essentially requires no additional inputs once it's installed, and can be used to power your house in addition to charging an electric vehicle, something you're not likely to do if you're distilling your own diesel.
I find the notion of an off-grid, solar cell-powered rural home coupled with an offroad EV like the Bollinger or Rivian highly compelling. The future is going to be pretty cool, at least in that regard.
Distilling your own diesel isn't really worth the cost; you end up with a higher cost per gallon than just going down to the local gas station.
On top of that, a whole-home solar-power system essentially requires no additional inputs once it's installed, and can be used to power your house in addition to charging an electric vehicle, something you're not likely to do if you're distilling your own diesel.
Is this based on your experience or conjecture?
My experience tells me you're flat wrong
It's based on research I did a few years ago when I was considering going down the rabbit hole of distilling restaurant grease into diesel. IIRC, costs looked at the materials needed to get a system functioning, inputs, and labor.
It's based on research I did a few years ago when I was considering going down the rabbit hole of distilling restaurant grease into diesel. IIRC, costs looked at the materials needed to get a system functioning, inputs, and labor.
For one, that's not distillation. Two that's not diesel, which is petroleum based. That's bio diesel, which is plant oil based.
What Could Take the Shine Off of Solar? A Waste Problem (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/what-could-take-the-shine-off-of-solar-a-waste-problem/ar-BBQbvgC)
Solar panels require specialty recyclers that know how to extract elements like silicon, silver and copper.
SOURCE JESSICA RINALDI/THE BOSTON GLOBE VIA GETTY
Sam Vanderhoof is still thinking about the 12,000 solar panels in Puerto Rico he can’t recycle. Vanderhoof’s recycling site is in Arizona, and the panels, destroyed by Hurricane Maria, are far enough to make the shipping costs unmanageable.
After first getting a call about them in September, Vanderhoof, founder and owner of Solar CowboyZ, a consulting firm in California, hasn’t heard anything. As far as he knows, the panels are still there.
While weather damage is the primary reason why solar photovoltaic (PV) panels need to be recycled, that’s going to change in the next 20 years — and it’s unclear if we’ll be ready for it. According to a report by the United Nations International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA):
There will be 60 million tons of cumulative solar photovoltaic waste by 2050.
That’s about 150 Empire State Buildings worth of PV panels. Given that the average American produces 4.4 pounds of waste every day, it would take more than 37,000 years for one person to produce that amount. And solar is by far the fastest-growing renewable energy: In 2017, its growth outstripped that of all other renewable energies combined. PV panels, the kind that line rooftops and farm-size utility installations, have a useful life of about 30 years. So a panel installed today would need to be replaced around 2048, or earlier if damaged.
It’s not that solar panels can’t be recycled now — after all, they’re mostly glass and aluminum. They can’t be placed in a recycling bin, though, owing to elements like silicon, silver and copper that require specialty recyclers who know how to extract those elements. But in the countries where most of that 60 million tons will end up — the U.S., India and China — there are no widespread recycling programs.
Evelyn Butler, senior director of codes and standards at the U.S. industry group Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA), says she knows of about a dozen organizations across the country accepting panel waste. SEIA is trying to encourage more such recycling outfits by connecting solar firms with recyclers. States are still writing their own solar waste policies, Butler says, and until those are done, firms are less likely to enter into the recycling business.
Vanderhoof became a recycler in July, working with an existing electronics recycler in Arizona to accept the panels. He got into recycling because of a “sense of personal responsibility,” he says, and has since gotten calls from “companies who want to do the right thing, or homeowners who pulled [solar panels] off their roof and don’t want them to go into a landfill.”
But the economics are challenging. Vanderhoof charges $18 per panel to recycle and another $7 or $8 in transportation costs.
“The biggest issue is the misconception the recoverable materials are worth a lot,” Vanderhoof says. “We can pull out about 94 percent of the materials — but the market rate is $3.50 [per panel].” Most of that value is in silver. Vanderhoof thinks recycling costs could come down with scale, but the difficulty, he says, is “jump-starting the process.” Europe’s experience with mandating recycling with dedicated funding could be a guide.
A 2012 update to European Union electronics rules included specific regulations for solar panel recycling. As a result, EU countries have a more robust recycling program. This year, France opened what’s believed to be the first plant dedicated solely to recycling solar panels.
Vanderhoof would like to see a similar system set up in the U.S. “Like recycling here for cans and bottles,” he says. “Or if you go buy a new TV [in California], you pay upfront for the recycling.”
Beyond making renewable energy more sustainable, there’s huge potential in recycling. IRENA estimates those 60 million tons of waste could be recycled into 2 billion new panels and represent $15 billion of total value in raw materials, not counting the development of new industries.
The best time to be a solar panel recycler could be much earlier than 2050. Butler says that manufacturers are using less silver than they did even a few years ago. As panels become cheaper and more effective in converting sunlight into electricity, large installers may want to swap out panels early. Recyclers could set up a PV program now to take advantage of that.
“If they’re a known resource for recycling in five to 10 years when some of those panels with more silver [come offline], it would be good for them,” Butler says.
The reuse-and-repurpose ethos that other recycling programs espouse makes sense for solar panels. Even at the end of 30 years, Butler says, most panels will still have some effectiveness — as much as 50 percent — and can be used for off-the-grid applications.
“There’s another purpose they can serve [before recycling],” she says.
Since we're talking about EVs.
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/subsidies-electric-cars-renewable-energy/
No doubt there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth within the Green Movement. How will electric cars survive without government's guiding hand?
The answer is, most won't. Otherwise, the federal government wouldn't need to subsidize them.
Meh. Killing the EV subsidies probably won't affect Tesla too much. It'll likely impact the legacy automakers whose only forays into EVs are crappy compliance cars that no one outside of the green weenie crowd would ever buy anyway.
Meh. Killing the EV subsidies probably won't affect Tesla too much. It'll likely impact the legacy automakers whose only forays into EVs are crappy compliance cars that no one outside of the green weenie crowd would ever buy anyway.
There shouldn't have been subsidies in the first place.
There shouldn't have been subsidies in the first place.
And?
There shouldn't have been subsidies in the first place.
Are you ok with the subsidies that the oil industry receives?
How about the bailout of GM?
Are you ok with the subsidies that the oil industry receives?
How about the bailout of GM?
No, I'm not OK with subsidies or bailouts by any level of government. Businesses need to succeed or fail on their own merits, just like people.
Faraday Future had the worst year possible for an EV startup
https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/21/faraday-future-year-in-review-loser/
Faraday Future had the worst year possible for an EV startup
https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/21/faraday-future-year-in-review-loser/
No surprise there. People have been talking about Faraday Future in past tense for months now.
Been thinking about these on here and other forums and folks who push Tesla/Prius and other d-bag vehicles.
This fits right in there. I?ll keep my big diesel. I?ll laugh at the electric truck that is on fire or overheated or who knows what on the side of a mountain road....some driver begging me to stop and plug in his truck to my battery with truck running for half an hour to get enough juice to make to to the next charging station. Or the guy who is up camping/hunting and his truck runs out of juice and wants to borrow my gas powered generator....nope, best get to walking with your sandals in the snow.
ChickNorris
12-22-2018, 06:58
.... the guy who is up camping/hunting and his truck runs out of juice and wants to borrow my gas powered generator....nope, best get to walking with your sandals in the snow.
Nice imagery. Hehehe
Been thinking about these on here and other forums and folks who push Tesla/Prius and other d-bag vehicles.
This fits right in there. I?ll keep my big diesel. I?ll laugh at the electric truck that is on fire or overheated or who knows what on the side of a mountain road....some driver begging me to stop and plug in his truck to my battery with truck running for half an hour to get enough juice to make to to the next charging station. Or the guy who is up camping/hunting and his truck runs out of juice and wants to borrow my gas powered generator....nope, best get to walking with your sandals in the snow.
Well, looks like I'm a d-bag then.
D-bag story of the day.
Rudolf Diesel fantard and Karl Benz fantards are harassing Elon Musk fantards....
Nikola Tesla is ROFLing on Christmas Eve.
https://electrek.co/2018/12/24/tesla-supercharger-anti-tesla-pickup-truck-drivers/amp/
D-bag story of the day.
Rudolf Diesel fantard and Karl Benz fantards are harassing Elon Musk fantards....
Nikola Tesla is ROFLing on Christmas Eve.
https://electrek.co/2018/12/24/tesla-supercharger-anti-tesla-pickup-truck-drivers/amp/
Idiots. We needed a Supercharger to get home to my wife's family out-of-state. If we pulled up to a scene like that she would've whooped their asses herself. I would have let her too.
The Bro-Dozer Brigade strikes again.
Nissan Leaf EV gangs might just park all their vehicle on ONE gas station nowhere near major interstate highway.
76900
That last Tesla article is authored by someone so innocent that they don't even realize why someone like those truck drivers would hate Tesla. I laughed when they tried to take the American Made path.
That last Tesla article is authored by someone so innocent that they don't even realize why someone like those truck drivers would hate Tesla. I laughed when they tried to take the American Made path.
I don't understand the Tesla hate, enlighten me.
Tesla isn't American made? That's news to me.
Bailey Guns
12-25-2018, 09:01
I don't understand the Tesla hate, enlighten me.
I don't get it either. Why should I care what kind of car someone else drives? If you want to drive an EV, knock yourself out. It's your money, your choice. If you choose to drive a Brand X, same thing. Why can't people just say, "EVs aren't for me. I prefer my Ford (or whatever)", and leave it at that?
68Charger
12-25-2018, 09:01
I don't understand the Tesla hate, enlighten me.
Tesla isn't American made? That's news to me.
It's not about American made, AFAIK.
Understand the hate for ICEs by elitists, and you're on the right track.
I'm in no way endorsing "icing" or whatever they want to call it that makes them feel superior.
I believe most humans like conflict at a sub-conscious level, so if there isn't something real to fight over, they will manufacture something unreal.
I don't get it either. Why should I care what kind of car someone else drives? If you want to drive an EV, knock yourself out. It's your money, your choice. If you choose to drive a Brand X, same thing. Why can't people just say, "EVs aren't for me. I prefer my Ford (or whatever)", and leave it at that?
Apparently that's too mature of an attitude to expect from adults.
It's not about American made, AFAIK.
Understand the hate for ICEs by elitists, and you're on the right track.
I'm in no way endorsing "icing" or whatever they want to call it that makes them feel superior.
I believe most humans like conflict at a sub-conscious level, so if there isn't something real to fight over, they will manufacture something unreal.
But he just said "I laughed when they tried to take the American Made path." as if it's not. I would think that this group, if any, would still care about something that's made by American hands in America for an American company that is actually innovating. Nah, we hate that. I don't get it at all and can only think it's all the untrue FUD that is being spewed as fact among the unwashed masses that lack two brain cells to run together.
I think a big part of it is in what you just said... anti-EV people see an EV (specifically a Tesla) and they assume some Elitist is driving it along with his political stance and hopes and ambitions in life. That's an awful lot to know for sure based on the car they drive. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I drive a Tesla Model S because it's hands down the best car I've ever driven. If you want to assume my ideology based on that I'm not going to lose much sleep.
We can at least agree that this ICEing thing is idiotic as a basis for agreement. If you can't at least agree on that then you're irrational and we don't even have a starting point from which to discuss. I'm glad to see we at least agree on one thing. lol
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-25-2018, 14:48
I don't get it either. Why should I care what kind of car someone else drives? If you want to drive an EV, knock yourself out. It's your money, your choice. If you choose to drive a Brand X, same thing. Why can't people just say, "EVs aren't for me. I prefer my Ford (or whatever)", and leave it at that?
Are you new?!? Get off the innerwebz!!!!
I don’t have a dog in this fight either. It is all about performance and it has been interesting to watch.
Are you new?!? Get off the innerwebz!!!!
I don’t have a dog in this fight either. It is all about performance and it has been interesting to watch.
If you don't give a shit about the political or environmental aspects go drive a Tesla Model S. That's what I did. It's simply the best car I've ever driven and it's not even close either. It really is on another level and has the best of all aspects combined into one vehicle. If anyone wants a ride just let me know. I'm happy to demo these things for people who have never been in one and answer any and all questions they may have.
Personally i like the concept and I'd drive an EV if it could actually replace what my bro dozer does, but even the prototypes on paper can't do what my 20 year old f250 is capable of let alone a new duramax.
Personally i like the concept and I'd drive an EV if it could actually replace what my bro dozer does, but even the prototypes on paper can't do what my 20 year old f250 is capable of let alone a new duramax.
Curious what specifically your 20 year old F250 does that something like the Rivian can't. I agree, on paper they look like world beaters so I'm curious what's missing from the spec sheet that you use regularly. Obviously one of the massive differences would be price tag of buying a 20-year-old F250 and one of these new Rivians but that aside (admittedly a massive non-starter for many, rightly so), what is it they can't do that yours can?
hurley842002
12-25-2018, 18:25
If battery capacity ever gets significantly better, and charging stations/technology (i.e. quicker charging) ever improves, I'd be all in on a good SUV version. I like road tripping, and long distance driving is a requirement, so unfortunately what is available is out of the question for me, but I really don't understand the unwarranted hate towards EV's.
68Charger
12-25-2018, 18:34
Curious what specifically your 20 year old F250 does that something like the Rivian can't. I agree, on paper they look like world beaters so I'm curious what's missing from the spec sheet that you use regularly. Obviously one of the massive differences would be price tag of buying a 20-year-old F250 and one of these new Rivians but that aside (admittedly a massive non-starter for many, rightly so), what is it they can't do that yours can?
That's definately #1... you could buy a 20 Year old Diesel and still have money left to buy thousands of gallons of fuel AND whatever trailer you want to tow with it for similar money.
#2 I've seen commercials where they talk about towing a travel trailer. With a 20-year old 3/4 ton Diesel, you also can- including nearly any gooseneck or fifth wheel, which is going to be a no-go with the Rivian's 55" bed
#3 speaking of the 55" bed, can you get 2 round hay bales, or 4 square bales on it? (I don't even think it could take the weight of 2400-3000#)
#4 How about contracting? You're going to be bending sheetrock if it's hanging over the tailgate... and forget about 12' lumber or ranch gates without a trailer...
#5 I could drive off with a Diesel truck now (already have 2). When is the 180kW version going to be available? Have They even published a price on it yet? Because you're going to need lots more "range" if you start using it like a 3/4 ton.
Stick with comparing it to F150s... most of those are not used like real trucks most of the time anyway (some never). Many could not do some things on this list either.
ETA: I'm comparing to my 20 year old 3/4 ton flat-bed Diesel, since I've never seen wulf's F250. I tried to avoid smart-ass answers like "buy a set of batteries without a loan"... but this is by no means an exhaustive list.
Curious what specifically your 20 year old F250 does that something like the Rivian can't. I agree, on paper they look like world beaters so I'm curious what's missing from the spec sheet that you use regularly. Obviously one of the massive differences would be price tag of buying a 20-year-old F250 and one of these new Rivians but that aside (admittedly a massive non-starter for many, rightly so), what is it they can't do that yours can?
68charger nailed it. My 20 year old diesels are cheap and easy to work on. Hell my 12 valve is emp resistant bone stock and runs off used motor oil. On road trips I do 12 hours with only stops for bathroom needs, I have auxiliary tanks when I need them. In bed campers?
I can post pictures of my 8' bed stacked even with the cab of drywall (90 sheets of 5/8, 5 of 1/2). Loads of heavy stuff to the dump... An 8 ft bed is far to useful to me. Also the load rating is 14k on the goose, which is less than it can actually handle. I've had a 16k backhoe on a 7500lb trailer.
I've seen duramax's do 32k over the mountains and 48k in the plains.
If battery capacity ever gets significantly better, and charging stations/technology (i.e. quicker charging) ever improves, I'd be all in on a good SUV version. I like road tripping, and long distance driving is a requirement, so unfortunately what is available is out of the question for me, but I really don't understand the unwarranted hate towards EV's.
As someone who has driven 2,500 miles across the US as recent as a few months ago in an EV I'm curious what you envision a road trip in one to look like that you think you need more range and faster charging than what is currently available. I've heard a lot of negativity surrounding EVs as far as range & charging go so I'm curious how that looks from someone who feels it's a driving factor.
Agreed on the unwarranted hate to EVs. It really is beyond me why some hate the very idea like it kicked their dog or something.
That's definately #1... you could buy a 20 Year old Diesel and still have money left to buy thousands of gallons of fuel AND whatever trailer you want to tow with it for similar money.
#2 I've seen commercials where they talk about towing a travel trailer. With a 20-year old 3/4 ton Diesel, you also can- including nearly any gooseneck or fifth wheel, which is going to be a no-go with the Rivian's 55" bed
#3 speaking of the 55" bed, can you get 2 round hay bales, or 4 square bales on it? (I don't even think it could take the weight of 2400-3000#)
#4 How about contracting? You're going to be bending sheetrock if it's hanging over the tailgate... and forget about 12' lumber or ranch gates without a trailer...
#5 I could drive off with a Diesel truck now (already have 2). When is the 180kW version going to be available? Have They even published a price on it yet? Because you're going to need lots more "range" if you start using it like a 3/4 ton.
Stick with comparing it to F150s... most of those are not used like real trucks most of the time anyway (some never). Many could not do some things on this list either.
ETA: I'm comparing to my 20 year old 3/4 ton flat-bed Diesel, since I've never seen wulf's F250. I tried to avoid smart-ass answers like "buy a set of batteries without a loan"... but this is by no means an exhaustive list.
Just to make sure, you're comparing to one of those new Rivian trucks, right? I wouldn't buy a new $100k truck or car either but that's just me. The real interesting time is when we start to see a used market for these vehicles so that normal folk can afford them.
You're also comparing diesels now which is removed from the F250 conversation we were having. I will agree that an EV pick-up doesn't fit every need but this requires you to admit the same thing for a 1-ton diesel. Cherry picking a situation where it may outperform (we don't even know what is coming but shit I'm reading says this may not be the case) and act like everything else doesn't exist. I will never try to convince the world that an EV is perfect for everyone and every need but there are entirely too many people out there willing to state that not a single one can meat a single individual need of anyone which is disingenuous.
Having taken my truck to the salvage yard where they unload you with a giant magnet, I wonder what would happen to an EV.
Also a short bed sucks for towing 5th wheels no matter the drive train.
I am a 'chump', I drive several diesels...
My biggest issue with EVs is the charging time. My vacation is typically 2100 miles round trip. The less time I have to spend sitting still, the better. I can get 400 miles of recharge in 10 minutes and be on my way.
68charger nailed it. My 20 year old diesels are cheap and easy to work on. Hell my 12 valve is emp resistant bone stock and runs off used motor oil. On road trips I do 12 hours with only stops for bathroom needs, I have auxiliary tanks when I need them. In bed campers?
I can post pictures of my 8' bed stacked even with the cab of drywall (90 sheets of 5/8, 5 of 1/2). Loads of heavy stuff to the dump... An 8 ft bed is far to useful to me. Also the load rating is 14k on the goose, which is less than it can actually handle. I've had a 16k backhoe on a 7500lb trailer.
I've seen duramax's do 32k over the mountains and 48k in the plains.
I love the idea of EMP resistant but be real here, if we get EMP we'll all have MUCH larger issues than if our pick em up truck starts or not. I get the thinking but after years of worrying about an EMP I'm not going to continue living my life in fear of something that will never happen.
You kind of touched on something regarding your road trips.. bathroom needs. People often want an EV to do 1,000 miles on a single charge which isn't realistic (with today's technology anyway) because we as humans have biological needs. A couple of posts ago I mentioned driving our new (to us) Tesla Model S off of the lot in Seattle and then 2,500 miles over the next five days to see various spots down the coast before ending up back here in Colorado. At no point were we wishing we could just keep driving and disappointed we "had" to stop to charge. We stopped every 2hrs on average and each stop was scheduled for 20 minutes give or take 5min. Some longer, some shorter. This isn't too different from the road trips we took in ICE cars.
Each time we would get out, stretch, get some water and/or snacks, use the restroom and maybe check out a nearby shop or something and then return to find our car was ready to go. Occasionally we'd stop at a Supercharger and it would be around lunch or dinner time and there would be a decently rated restaurant nearby so we'd plug in and go eat. After an hour when we returned the car would be topped off which meant we'd need to stop less frequently, for shorter duration or both for the next leg. Keep in mind that we have a Model S 60 which is one of the shortest Range Teslas made. The newer and more expensive ones get much longer range and would allow you to drive further, stop less and charge quicker. My guess is that even with one of those you wouldn't really notice covering point A to point B any quicker across the country. I would venture a guess that you wouldn't even do it that much quicker in an ICE vehicle unless you were on some sort of cannonball run scenario where you're shitting your pants and pissing in bottles.
Oh yeah, did I mention that 2,500 miles didn't cost us a penny?
This is also road trips that we're talking about which make up well under 5% of use for most vehicle owners. Basing your vehicle purchase on the 1-2% of use is probably a bad idea for most. I hear stuff about "more range" a lot and I know that the way the technology is advancing we'll see "more range" next year, then the year after, etc. What we have no is perfectly adequate just most every driver out there if they're honest with themselves. These cars will do the 98-99% day in and day out w/o batting an eyelash and will give you a better experience.
To top it off, I can't really explain it but we were NOT tired from driving at all after 10-12hrs in the seat each day. This is something I never experienced in a regular ICE car. Something about the engine noise, exhaust note, droning, vibrations, etc. I would notice fatigue on anything but the shortest local drives. Scottsbluff, NE for us is about 2.5 hours one-way. Often times we would make the trip, enjoy a few hours with family and then drive back the same day. After only 5hrs in the saddle and a few hours of sitting around eating and talking we'd be beat. This (along with MANY things) are things that you don't really see as abnormal because that's just the way they've always been.
The Tesla Model S is the best car I've ever driven. Period.
Having taken my truck to the salvage yard where they unload you with a giant magnet, I wonder what would happen to an EV.
Also a short bed sucks for towing 5th wheels no matter the drive train.
In what aspect? They're both made of similar materials so it would be pretty similar. Do you mean the computers and such or do you mean that the truck would just fall apart in general if you asked it to haul that much?
My biggest issue with EVs is the charging time. My vacation is typically 2100 miles round trip. The less time I have to spend sitting still, the better. I can get 400 miles of recharge in 10 minutes and be on my way.
So you will actually take a 2,100 mile trip and stop only 5 times for 10 minutes each time for a grand total of 50 minutes?
So you will actually take a 2,100 mile trip and stop only 5 times for 10 minutes each time for a grand total of 50 minutes?
Unless there is an emergency piss stop and our destinations, yes.
Did this recently. Left 12/7 for Haskell, TX. Stayed for a few days, left for Kilgore, TX. After a few days, visited Jacksonville TX. Another few to Bandera, TX. Returned on 12/16.
If you take a peek at those areas and the routes between, the EV charging infrastructure isn't really there, without further delays.
Would I like an EV for my 70 mile round trip commute? Sure, but all of our family is spread out in relatively rural areas that it doesn't work for us, as we visit multiple times a year.
I like the idea of off road vehicles, but how realistic would it be to camp for a week like when hunting? My early hunting trip I bring extra fuel and top up at the cabin. On days with lots of driving I've had to stop in a small town to refuel.
Let me start over. How about something like Jeep Easter Safari where you are camping at night and wheeling all day. The wheeling isn't mileage heavy, but you're still living out of your vehicle for days.
Of course those aren't normal driving conditions, but since we're talking about things you couldn't currently do with an EV. Even all those examples I gave don't really mean much because most people who have that hobby have a second vehicle for those kinds of trips anyway.
There are 3 types of Tesla haters.
1. Idiots who just think driving ev or hybrid as Faxgxxx or Queex.
2. People who doesn't like ev because of governerment tax credit for buyer and some kinda subsidies for manufacturers.
Hate the game, not the player.
3. People who bet agaist Tesla (TSLA Short Seller).
Nothing personal, it is all business to them. LONGs also call them "Shortards."
I can understand disliking the certain brand (preference) , BUT hating a car DRIVER for driving a Brand they don't like is just fuxking retarded.
hurley842002
12-25-2018, 21:06
As someone who has driven 2,500 miles across the US as recent as a few months ago in an EV I'm curious what you envision a road trip in one to look like that you think you need more range and faster charging than what is currently available. I've heard a lot of negativity surrounding EVs as far as range & charging go so I'm curious how that looks from someone who feels it's a driving factor.
Agreed on the unwarranted hate to EVs. It really is beyond me why some hate the very idea like it kicked their dog or something.
Our longest trip is here to Southern California, sometimes we drive from here to Grand Junction, stay the night, and make the rest of the drive, sometimes we drive from here to St. George UT, and then finish the trip. I couldn't drive to St. George on a single charge with any of the common EV's out right now. I haven't researched the drive using an EV, and perhaps it is possible if you strategize, but with a 4 and 5 year old, we need a bit more flexibility than current EV's will allow.
Unless there is an emergency piss stop and our destinations, yes.
At the risk of sounding argumentative I'm not buying that. You stopped for five times for 10 minutes TOTAL over 2,100 miles and didn't stop for a minute longer anywhere else along the way? I have a hard time believing that nobody has blood clots if that's the case.
Did this recently. Left 12/7 for Haskell, TX. Stayed for a few days, left for Kilgore, TX. After a few days, visited Jacksonville TX. Another few to Bandera, TX. Returned on 12/16.
If you take a peek at those areas and the routes between, the EV charging infrastructure isn't really there, without further delays.
Would I like an EV for my 70 mile round trip commute? Sure, but all of our family is spread out in relatively rural areas that it doesn't work for us, as we visit multiple times a year.
For fun I plugged your location with your destinations into Tesla's trip planner using the smallest capacity (read: shortest range) vehicle they make and it plotted a route to all of your destinations using Superchargers. Not only could you make the trip but you could make it 100% free. This is especially true if you stayed at each destination a day or two as you stated as you can charge at each one overnight or for several days and require even less Supercharger stops between legs. You don't have to just rely on the Supercharger networks to make trips and if you branch out from there there's electricity at far more locations than gas stations. People just need to change their way of thinking of things. This one-ff exercise was also not your daily commute which any Tesla could handle w/o batting an eyelash.
So saying that the EV charging infrastructure isn't there isn't accurate. Not only is the EV infrastructure there for that crazy complex trip you laid out in the sticks but enough Tesla Superchargers exist to make it completely free. This seems like a great place to point out that Tesla announced recently that they will once again double the number of Superchargers across the US in 2019 and they will also increase the speed at which they charge "significantly" so while today's network is more than enough for that incredibly random trip you laid out but it's improving quite literally by the week.
ETA: I have a screen shot of the planned trip for your review but this site caps image uploads at 250kb and I guess this image is above that and I'm too lazy to resize it.
I like the idea of off road vehicles, but how realistic would it be to camp for a week like when hunting? My early hunting trip I bring extra fuel and top up at the cabin. On days with lots of driving I've had to stop in a small town to refuel.
Let me start over. How about something like Jeep Easter Safari where you are camping at night and wheeling all day. The wheeling isn't mileage heavy, but you're still living out of your vehicle for days.
Of course those aren't normal driving conditions, but since we're talking about things you couldn't currently do with an EV. Even all those examples I gave don't really mean much because most people who have that hobby have a second vehicle for those kinds of trips anyway.
I agree with your last point that I would have a dedicated toy for that but to see if an EV would be a viable candidate... is there electricity at the cabin you stay at? Can you find a campground or RV park near where you hunt at all? If not then the answer is probably that you wouldn't be able to do that with an EV. At least not with the technology available today. Like I've said before, they're not the end-all be-all for everyone and every situation but they will cover probably better than 90% of user's needs.
Our longest trip is here to Southern California, sometimes we drive from here to Grand Junction, stay the night, and make the rest of the drive, sometimes we drive from here to St. George UT, and then finish the trip. I couldn't drive to St. George on a single charge with any of the common EV's out right now. I haven't researched the drive using an EV, and perhaps it is possible if you strategize, but with a 4 and 5 year old, we need a bit more flexibility than current EV's will allow.
So, again, why do you think you need to drive that 641 miles on a single charge? You don't drive that far on a single tank of gas so why do you put an unfair comparison on an EV?
With a Tesla you get in, put in your destination and it automatically calculates all of the stops you need to make, what time you will get there, how long you will need to be there charging and even the percentage of your remaining charge when you get there. You don't have to think about anything. Just drive. Every couple of hours you stop for 15-30 min which the lion's share of you stops in that 20 minute range. That's about when you'd want a quick break anyway even if you were in an ICE vehicle.
As far as flexibility goes... what do you need? You can still stop whenever or wherever you want. You start to find where Superchargers are near where you want to stop for whatever reason though and the nav unit will automatically recalculate your trip with fewer stops for less time based on the short stop you just made. It's really quite simple in practice. We end up at little malls and shopping areas that have either fast food or dining and shops if that's your thing too.
All of this talk of range and we haven't even got into how much faster, smoother, quieter and awesome-er these cars are.
Jer I like you and I get why you are defending your new found love. But there are some realistic differences that apply to some of us.
I couldn’t take an EV vehicle in my hunting trips. An EV vehicle won’t remotely come close to pulling what I can and do pull for as long as I can pull, as far as I can pull and in the fastest given time that I can pull with a present day diesel truck. That’s what this thread was about, that’s what the comparison is about. It is hands down in 100% favor of a modern day diesel truck over a concert EV truck for what I do.
Now for cost, you can’t say an EV has no cost. Just because someone subsidizes the energy bill at a charging location doesn’t mean there isn’t a cost somewhere.
A huge cost goes into a charging station at a residence. An even bigger one for pit stops or rest areas or subsidized stations. Those costs add up and draw plenty of power. Power isn’t free and comes from somewhere and is paid for by someone. If I got free diesel I could claim my truck is free to run and with a 100gal tank in the bed I could run damn near across the country non stop and recycle my waste by tossing it on the windshields of whatever Prius I pass.
The problem is a huge initial upfront cost, a .gov (dem) subsidized vehicle taking my tax dollars and giving them to monster companies to sell these vehicles because they are cost prohibitive generally or they are mandated by .gov for mpg standards.
And then it comes down to practicality. There isn’t that for me personally. I would rather get a used Honda Civic for $10k and spend $60k in gas then get a $70k EV because it is “cool” and “it doesn’t use any power or gas” which again is total BS. It sucks up plenty of juice, it just depends on who is paying for it. That civic will last longer, guaranteed. Batteries on iPads last a couple thousand charges. EVs will be similar and then a huge expense to replace them or you suffer the degradation of range.
Cool concept, but not practical for a whole lot of people and when those who love this new concept start to push and push how great their idea is and make sure anyone who disagrees knows how bad and wrong they are, that turns into the shitty way of doing things.
In what aspect? They're both made of similar materials so it would be pretty similar. Do you mean the computers and such or do you mean that the truck would just fall apart in general if you asked it to haul that much?
Strong magnets and computers, non steel beds with rough handling. Pick one.
For the record about 20% of my miles come from what you'd consider road trips, half of those miles are towing on road trips. I take a break every 4 hours and typically stop at 12 but can go 18 hours for a trip.
Like others have said this concept could be an alternative to the typical f150 usage but won't replace the heavy haulers.
Jer I like you and I get why you are defending your new found love. But there are some realistic differences that apply to some of us.
I couldn’t take an EV vehicle in my hunting trips. An EV vehicle won’t remotely come close to pulling what I can and do pull for as long as I can pull, as far as I can pull and in the fastest given time that I can pull with a present day diesel truck. That’s what this thread was about, that’s what the comparison is about. It is hands down in 100% favor of a modern day diesel truck over a concert EV truck for what I do.
Now for cost, you can’t say an EV has no cost. Just because someone subsidizes the energy bill at a charging location doesn’t mean there isn’t a cost somewhere.
A huge cost goes into a charging station at a residence. An even bigger one for pit stops or rest areas or subsidized stations. Those costs add up and draw plenty of power. Power isn’t free and comes from somewhere and is paid for by someone. If I got free diesel I could claim my truck is free to run and with a 100gal tank in the bed I could run damn near across the country non stop and recycle my waste by tossing it on the windshields of whatever Prius I pass.
The problem is a huge initial upfront cost, a .gov (dem) subsidized vehicle taking my tax dollars and giving them to monster companies to sell these vehicles because they are cost prohibitive generally or they are mandated by .gov for mpg standards.
And then it comes down to practicality. There isn’t that for me personally. I would rather get a used Honda Civic for $10k and spend $60k in gas then get a $70k EV because it is “cool” and “it doesn’t use any power or gas” which again is total BS. It sucks up plenty of juice, it just depends on who is paying for it. That civic will last longer, guaranteed. Batteries on iPads last a couple thousand charges. EVs will be similar and then a huge expense to replace them or you suffer the degradation of range.
Cool concept, but not practical for a whole lot of people and when those who love this new concept start to push and push how great their idea is and make sure anyone who disagrees knows how bad and wrong they are, that turns into the shitty way of doing things.
I've said it numerous times and I guess I have to put a disclaimer at the beginning of every single post I make: I'm not saying EVs are for everyone and that they can fit every need. Hell, I feel like I've said that half a dozen times just tonight and yet people still insist on putting words into my mouth. Saying it's my "new found love" trivializes the years of research I've done on the topic. This isn't some torrid love affair that will fizzle after a few months. The tires are turning and I'm not the one turning them but I'm part of it. Some don't like change and I get that but don't blame the messenger.
Hell, I still feel that EV isn't even the right platform for heavy duty use and I'm on the record saying that. I feel like hydrogen would be the best solution for long-haul semitractor trailers but nobody is building one. Tesla makes EVs so they said screw it, we'll build something better. That doesn't mean it's the best solution but it's probably going to be better than what is currently available.
I feel like these full size pick-ups fall somewhere in the middle. For most they will be fine. For some who actually use their pick-ups more like a semi they may not suffice. I wouldn't suggest anyone put on the blinders and buy something that doesn't fit their needs. I also grew up on farms and know that most city folk "need" a lot, lot, LOT less pick-up truck than they think they do. That's another topic though.
Your needs are that 1-2% I talked about but blindly trying to take down the entire segment because of your specified needs is a bit myopic. No sense bashing the things I've said as I stated numerous times it was speaking to the 98-99% use. In those cases they still apply.
I can say that charging them at a Supercharger has not cost because, for me, it does. You seem to think that means that taxes are paying them and they are but the fact is that Tesla pays for that and the cost is built into the price of the cars. I'm sure that those paying $140k for a car are absorbing the lion's share of that cost. Just like they all have free 4G LTE for streaming music 100% free for life, web surfing and anything else you can do with data and guess what.... free. Sure it comes with the cost of that car but that's better than being nickle and dimmed to death with monthly fees. Personally, I like buying a used car at a massive discount over new and getting all the perks w/o a monthly service charge for the rest of my life.
As for a huge cost going into a charging station at a residence.... $39 is a huge cost? I put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet myself in an afternoon and it was $39 worth of parts from Home Depot. Even if you pay an electrician to do it that wouldn't have cost more than $200-$300 in this area. The cost isn't huge to charge at home at all. Quite the contrary because we've saved about $450 per month in has the last three months we've been driving these Model S's. It's pretty nice never having to go stand outside at a gas station. Not to mention I no longer have to roll around on my cold garage floor in the winter changing engine oil and doing other "routine maintenance" that simply doesn't exist on an EV.
Where can you get free diesel?
Here we go with the government subsidized tax dollars things again. You need to do more research on what "subsidies" exist for the big three and compare them to Tesla and then come back and tell me how much Tesla is ripping the tax payer off. This song has been played for years and it's complete BS man. Tesla got a LOAN at the same time Ford did and it was a fraction of the amount Ford got. GM and Chrysler also took loans as well as bailouts. Tesla paid their LOAN back ahead of schedule. You think Ford, GM or Chrysler has paid theirs back yet? Nope. There's still a MASSIVE debt owed by the big three and based on current financials it doesn't look like we'll see that money back. Yet people are mad at Tesla for "Government subsidies" ROFL
Go get your used Honda Civic and then I will meet you somewhere. Drive both. Then tell me with a straight face how much better than Civic is. Comparing the batteries of an EV to an iPad proves how ignorant to this topic you are. The technology is entirely different. Model S's are already going over 400k miles on the factory battery pack under the worst conditions they can get which is charging to 100% via nothing but Superchargers. Early on they were concerned that you might not get 200-300k out of a battery pack. Now we have countless data points of cars going half a million miles of hard driving with less than 10% battery degradation. That's just crazy. So I can have a car with 350 miles range new and then by 500k miles I may have the unbelievable decision to replace my batteries because they now "only" get 315 miles of range? lol C'mon man, you're smarter than that.
Did I mention that the 2015 Model S we bought has an unlimited mileage battery warranty until 2023? That's the one we bought used too. Anything goes wrong and they replace it. That's a LOT of confidence to put in an "iPad battery" wouldn't you agree? That "huge expense" as you put it will not only come down in price by the time I even need to concern myself with it but I plan properly and put a little money away each month until then I can replace the battery pack twice by the time I need to. Same goes for any ICE vehicle you plan to put 500k miles on. Except you better put a LOT more money away for normal wear and tear items that these don't even have. Talk to me about timing belt changes, alternators, transmissions, clutches, and all of those other moving parts ICE cars need. Hell, people are getting 250k miles out of the brake pads and rotors thanks to regenerative braking! lol
You say that I'm pushing and pushing and all I'm doing is combating misinformation that gets spewed as fact. If I was having this conversation with open minded people it's a LOT different. Hell, just read back a few posts where I was talking to open minded people. Totally different conversation.
Face it, the "cool concept" is here to stay and in it's existing form (and improving monthly) it's an awesome option for most car owners.
[LOL]
This gotta be staged/madeup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j52odgkRxDs
Great-Kazoo
12-25-2018, 22:05
When i see an EV pulling a 5th wheel with their bass boat behind that, up floyd hill @ 80, i'll consider it.
We really like the EV "concept". BUT..........Like solar for the home, it's just not practical. Or IMO something my money would be wisely spent on, for a diminishing return. I say diminishing due to the newness of it while the technology. By the time you're in to the 4th years payments. Is already outdated.
[LOL]
This gotta be staged/madeup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j52odgkRxDs
A buddy sent me that one too. I refuse to believe any human being is that dumb.
When i see an EV pulling a 5th wheel with their bass boat behind that, up floyd hill @ 80, i'll consider it.
We really like the EV "concept". BUT..........Like solar for the home, it's just not practical. Or IMO something my money would be wisely spent on, for a diminishing return. I say diminishing due to the newness of it while the technology. By the time you're in to the 4th years payments. Is already outdated.
I don't know if we'll see your first scenario in our lifetime but I didn't think EVs would ever be capable of what they do now & there's some promising innovation on the horizon so who knows?
Residential solar is another conversation but certainly related. Much like EVs the technology has advanced by an order of magnitude the last few years compared to it's efficiency progress since invention. About 15 years ago you'd never recoup your initial investment. Now models have it paid for in savings in about 7-8 years. I have a feeling in another year or two we'll be looking at doing it. I'm still waiting for one more decent leap in cost v efficiency to minimize my exposure to the investment before 100% return. With two EVs as our primary that would certainly help shorten that return time. Maybe not though since as it is we pay about $12 per month to charge each car. ROFL
Residential solar is another conversation but certainly related. Much like EVs the technology has advanced by an order of magnitude the last few years compared to it's efficiency progress since invention
Do you understand what an "order of magnitude" is? That term has no place in discussing photovoltaic efficiency over "the last few years" or even decades.
Do you understand what an "order of magnitude" is? That term has no place in discussing photovoltaic efficiency over "the last few years" or even decades.
https://news-media.energysage.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/04.27_Tracking-solar-panel-efficiency_Blog.png
If it were consistent by year you'd see basically a flat line from 1960 to 1992. Then a slight increase to 3-5 years ago. Then it skyrockets year after year since. The trend is clearly an increase in efficiency more & more each year with the technology being developed & discoveries being made. The safe assumption is this trend will continue & possibly even increase.
But like I said, this is another conversation.
Where can you get free diesel?.
I've gotten hundreds of gallons of fuel for my 12 valve for free on craigslist
Jer, those are test cells, not production for home solar. Those are improvements in "research cell" efficiency. It's the best science could do in a limited capacity. Commercial photovoltaic efficiency has not risen by 10x....ever.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/PVeff%28rev181218%29v5.pdf
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/PVeff%28rev181218%29v5.pdf
76929
68Charger
12-26-2018, 00:29
Just to make sure, you're comparing to one of those new Rivian trucks, right? I wouldn't buy a new $100k truck or car either but that's just me. The real interesting time is when we start to see a used market for these vehicles so that normal folk can afford them.
You're also comparing diesels now which is removed from the F250 conversation we were having. I will agree that an EV pick-up doesn't fit every need but this requires you to admit the same thing for a 1-ton diesel. Cherry picking a situation where it may outperform (we don't even know what is coming but shit I'm reading says this may not be the case) and act like everything else doesn't exist. I will never try to convince the world that an EV is perfect for everyone and every need but there are entirely too many people out there willing to state that not a single one can meat a single individual need of anyone which is disingenuous.
Yes, I can read and looked up the specs on the Rivian R1t... if you actually read my post, you'd see mentioned the 180k battery pack availability. Good luck with a used EV when you need to buy a battery pack for 5 figures.
You don't even seem to know that a 20 year old F250 could be equipped with a Diesel... Wulf mentioned a Duramax (which is a Diesel engine- did you even know that?), and the thread title literally mentions Diesel trucks.
You were asking what an F250 (Diesel) could do that a Rivian couldn't, and I provided real life examples of things I have literally done with my truck without any issues (and so did wulf), and based on specs (that I quoted) that the Rivian R1t would not be capable of... that is not 'cherry picking', it's answering a question you apparently didn't really want the answer to.
Cognitive dissonance in it's natural habitat.
I even mentioned you stick to comparing it to a truck it is more comparable too... but leave working trucks out of it until they get to 11,000 Lbs GVWR (not towing capacity), and a GCWR of > 20,000 Lbs, lest you prove further you don't know anything about that subject.
Articles that refer to "eye-popping towing capacity of 5000Kg (11,000 Lbs)" are just marketing hype and may impress people that shop for F150s, but that's not impressive in the world of Diesel trucks.
When they start building them to work truck specs, then I can ignore them solely on price... but based on publicized specs, they would be unsafe at any price to do what I ask of a truck.
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-26-2018, 07:12
If you don't give a shit about the political
I don?t
or environmental aspects
I do
go drive a Tesla Model S. That's what I did. It's simply the best car I've ever driven and it's not even close either. It really is on another level and has the best of all aspects combined into one vehicle. If anyone wants a ride just let me know. I'm happy to demo these things for people who have never been in one and answer any and all questions they may have.
But the Tesla S is pretty meh. (Although I like that kid with the white one who goes around enraging others by drag racing a modded one). I have several friends with them. Like I said 10-12 pages in front of this, I have a pretty low reservation number on the Bollinger, and I like what Tesla has done with the network, but I have no place for a sedan in my life at this point, even as a 3 car owner. Other than the front end, I like where the Rivian truck is headed, but it isn?t quite there yet. I?m quite hopeful it will be soon. I may even pass on the Bollinger if they don?t get a lot of things in place first.
Yes, I can read and looked up the specs on the Rivian R1t... if you actually read my post, you'd see mentioned the 180k battery pack availability. Good luck with a used EV when you need to buy a battery pack for 5 figures.
You don't even seem to know that a 20 year old F250 could be equipped with a Diesel... Wulf mentioned a Duramax (which is a Diesel engine- did you even know that?), and the thread title literally mentions Diesel trucks.
You were asking what an F250 (Diesel) could do that a Rivian couldn't, and I provided real life examples of things I have literally done with my truck without any issues (and so did wulf), and based on specs (that I quoted) that the Rivian R1t would not be capable of... that is not 'cherry picking', it's answering a question you apparently didn't really want the answer to.
Cognitive dissonance in it's natural habitat.
I even mentioned you stick to comparing it to a truck it is more comparable too... but leave working trucks out of it until they get to 11,000 Lbs GVWR (not towing capacity), and a GCWR of > 20,000 Lbs, lest you prove further you don't know anything about that subject.
Articles that refer to "eye-popping towing capacity of 5000Kg (11,000 Lbs)" are just marketing hype and may impress people that shop for F150s, but that's not impressive in the world of Diesel trucks.
When they start building them to work truck specs, then I can ignore them solely on price... but based on publicized specs, they would be unsafe at any price to do what I ask of a truck.
Listen man, I don't know if you read everything I post with a sarcastic tone in your head but it sure seems like it the way you always choose to respond to me. Stop being a fucking dick bag man. I can have an honest and open conversation with just about everyone else on this forum and I genuinely ask questions I WANT to know the answer to or I wouldn't even fucking ask them. I wasn't defending anyone with my questions nor would I defend Rivian who all I know about is press release BS that can be whatever they want it to be at this point. I asked for specifics on what they could do with one truck that they couldn't do with another and I felt that was pretty obvious based on the words I used. If you read my posts like a normal adult you'd see that lots of what I post is genuine want of knowledge and data. You seem to be a fucking douche bag by nature so maybe you just project your fuckery on everyone else and assume everyone else is a douche like you but the fact of the matter is you own that crown and are a miserable fuckstick of a human being. Try not to project your shitty attitude on everyone else and you may find we're decent to get along with.
I think you're missing the mark a bit Jer.
I think you're missing the mark a bit Jer.
With all due respect Irving I don't think so. This guy has had it in from me for some time now and I have no idea what his fucking problem is but he needs to pull that stick from his ass because he's behaving like a 5 year old. I'm sick of his shitty attitude towards me regardless of the thread or topic. I don't even mind heated conversations about topics but this guy insists on attacking me personally and there's no fucking reason for it. None. You disagree with me? That's fine. Present facts and data to help me understand your stance. Acting like I'm a moron that doesn't know what a diesel is in an attempt to discredit what I'm saying is a troll play.
hurley842002
12-26-2018, 17:02
IBTL
Your formed opinion of that guy is probably different than mine. I was surprised that of all the posts in the thread, that was the one that upset you. I'll let you hash it out.
BushMasterBoy
12-26-2018, 17:23
"Stop being a fucking dick bag man." What a shame. The forum used to be so civilized. So sad anymore.
At the risk of sounding argumentative I'm not buying that. You stopped for five times for 10 minutes TOTAL over 2,100 miles and didn't stop for a minute longer anywhere else along the way? I have a hard time believing that nobody has blood clots if that's the case.
Your math on the total stop time is a bit off, but you had it right the first time around.
For fun I plugged your location with your destinations into Tesla's trip planner using the smallest capacity (read: shortest range) vehicle they make and it plotted a route to all of your destinations using Superchargers. Not only could you make the trip but you could make it 100% free. This is especially true if you stayed at each destination a day or two as you stated as you can charge at each one overnight or for several days and require even less Supercharger stops between legs. You don't have to just rely on the Supercharger networks to make trips and if you branch out from there there's electricity at far more locations than gas stations. People just need to change their way of thinking of things. This one-ff exercise was also not your daily commute which any Tesla could handle w/o batting an eyelash.
So saying that the EV charging infrastructure isn't there isn't accurate. Not only is the EV infrastructure there for that crazy complex trip you laid out in the sticks but enough Tesla Superchargers exist to make it completely free. This seems like a great place to point out that Tesla announced recently that they will once again double the number of Superchargers across the US in 2019 and they will also increase the speed at which they charge "significantly" so while today's network is more than enough for that incredibly random trip you laid out but it's improving quite literally by the week.
ETA: I have a screen shot of the planned trip for your review but this site caps image uploads at 250kb and I guess this image is above that and I'm too lazy to resize it.
Believe what you want. Doing pretty much the same trip again in a few months. I leave May 17. 2213 miles this time. Probably going to Bandera first to shoot a deer in the face, then up to Kilgore to hopefully bag some hogs. Jacksonville for a graduation, then hitting Haskell on the way back.
I will not have to increase my relatives electric bill to do so, but admittedly I may have to make 1 more stop since I will be pulling a trailer back from Bandera.
Bandera to home is 13hrs, 31 minutes according to google.
I have a photo time stamped as I was leaving my brother's house at 8:27 central time.
He called me as I was pulling up to my house at 8:57 mountain time.
Your math on the total stop time is a bit off, but you had it right the first time around.
Your formed opinion of that guy is probably different than mine. I was surprised that of all the posts in the thread, that was the one that upset you. I'll let you hash it out.
It's not just this thread and it's just the straw that broke the came's back. The guy doesn't have to be a prick 24/7.
"Stop being a fucking dick bag man." What a shame. The forum used to be so civilized. So sad anymore.
Tell me about it. I have no idea why this guy can't act civilized towards me. This isn't normally how I react to others on the forum but if this is what he's trying to get out of me I guess he wins.
68Charger
12-26-2018, 19:15
Tell me about it. I have no idea why this guy can't act civilized towards me. This isn't normally how I react to others on the forum but if this is what he's trying to get out of me I guess he wins.
I'm just using logic... but since that's not your native language, I'll bow out of this thread and let it be the "Blow smoke up your ass about what EV's can do, while ignoring the real world of stuff that already exists".
That's my THING.. I care about reality.
And that IS me being civilized- but apparently you don't deal well with reality.
I've had enough, you're going on ignore... good bye, and enjoy your cognitive dissonance. (if you can even figure out what that means)
BushMasterBoy
12-26-2018, 19:45
And my point was missed. I give up. You win.
I'm just using logic... but since that's not your native language, I'll bow out of this thread and let it be the "Blow smoke up your ass about what EV's can do, while ignoring the real world of stuff that already exists".
That's my THING.. I care about reality.
And that IS me being civilized- but apparently you don't deal well with reality.
I've had enough, you're going on ignore... good bye, and enjoy your cognitive dissonance. (if you can even figure out what that means)
Now I know you're a troll. I'm the most logical thinker you'd ever hope to meet to the point it's a fault. My wife gives me shit because of how I have to consider every point from both sides applying logic & ignoring emotion. Just yet another parting personal attack from one of the least classiest members of this forum. You say I'm ignoring "real world stuff" when all I've been doing is asking questions. I'm trying to learn what real world limitations exist. I want to know if there's specific examples of something I missed or haven't experienced.
THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE DAMN QUESTIONS.
I wasn't sarcastic & I sure as shit wasn't pushing EVs onto anyone. In fact, I even commented numerous times how it wasn't the end-all be-all & also that they weren't for everyone. I spelled that out in no uncertain terms so how you took anything else from that beyond exactly what I said is beyond me. If I didn't care about reality would I be asking people's real world examples?
You've got something personal against me for a while now. You follow me to various threads like a lost puppy looking for opportunities to personally attack me. Your obsession with me is unhealthy & I've had it with your shit.
Act civil & I'll reply in kind. Act like a spoiled 5-year-old who didn't get his way and guess what...
68Charger
12-26-2018, 20:36
And my point was missed. I give up. You win.
I got your point, I'm just tired of having the same kind of discussions I have with my 22 year old daughter who is planning a wedding, but I thought we were talking about truck specifications.
It's just not a hill I feel is worth dying on- and before I really head back to the sewer with my comments, I'll just ignore him.
BTW, I have no idea what Jer said in the post above me, but I don't care- life is too short to listen to what I assume is more drivel.
buffalobo
12-26-2018, 20:42
Dumbazzes can't have a conversation without insulting each other or even tolerate vigorous debate. Couple of you guys act the intellectuals and end up looking like morons.
Be glad you got bitched at and not a winter vacation.
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