View Full Version : Diesel pickups are for chumps
Jeffrey Lebowski
08-06-2018, 06:21
A bit tongue in cheek perhaps. A Tesla buddy forwarded this to me.
http://www.atlismotorvehicles.com/xt-truck/
Anyone seen it yet? I’m on the list for a Bollinger, and will probably pass, but wow.
I drove a one-ton Cummins 6MT / SRW for about a decade, and really only towed a pile of crap jeep around.
But wow, 35,000lbs up 6% doing 65mph?
Coming 2020... if it's anything like the Elio, best not to put any $ into it until actually on the market and not vaporware.
They need an option to make it blow black smoke. That would confuse the tree huggers if you were driving an electric vehicle and “rolling coal”.
Bailey Guns
08-06-2018, 06:50
Change is coming...whether we like it or not, whether it's good or not.
Martinjmpr
08-06-2018, 07:24
Love the picture of the electric truck pulling the 5th wheel.
I'm guessing that if you lived where I do in Columbine, you could maybe pull that 5th wheel to Chatfield Reservoir before you needed to plug it in and charge it again. :rolleyes:
Until and unless there's some kind of breakthrough in battery or charging technology & infrastructure, electric vehicles are going to continue to be confined to urban and suburban areas.
I really think hybrid technology has more of a future, just because it's easier to carry more potential power (fuel) in a smaller volume than there is with batteries. Potentially you could have a hybrid system is that like an electric vehicle (or like a diesel locomotive) where there is no physical connection between the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) and the drive wheels, instead the ICE just runs a generator that sends power to the wheels via wire. That eliminates the need for a transmission and allows you to have a separate motor on each wheel, which means you could choose RWD, FWD, or AWD with the touch of a button. Traction control, skid control and ABS could also be built in electronically.
I have nothing against electric vehicles but the range and charging problems are their Achilles heel.
BTW I don't get the "front trunk" option. My thought is, if you have that much space to spare, use it for batteries.
A bit tongue in cheek perhaps. A Tesla buddy forwarded this to me.
http://www.atlismotorvehicles.com/xt-truck/
Anyone seen it yet? I’m on the list for a Bollinger, and will probably pass, but wow.
I drove a one-ton Cummins 6MT / SRW for about a decade, and really only towed a pile of crap jeep around.
But wow, 35,000lbs up 6% doing 65mph?
You don't think the RAM 3500 can run its 39K GCWR 65MPH up a 6% grade?
wctriumph
08-06-2018, 07:35
Seem like a great idea. I would drive one.
Aloha_Shooter
08-06-2018, 08:24
There's a reason ships use electric motors to power the props and diesel engines to recharge the batteries or power the motors in a pinch ... ;-)
There's a reason ships use electric motors to power the props and diesel engines to recharge the batteries or power the motors in a pinch ... ;-)
Because they don't make long enough underwater rated extension cords?
Maybe instead of rolling coal, trucks of the future will have Tesla coils instead of exhaust pipes and put out displays of sparks.
It's a great idea seeing as there is no top end on pickup prices.
BlasterBob
08-06-2018, 09:17
There's a reason ships use electric motors to power the props and diesel engines to recharge the batteries or power the motors in a pinch ... ;-)
Same with Railroad Diesel locomotives where the diesel merely supplies current to the traction motors. However, not too efficient when attempting to operate on flooded tracks.
Zundfolge
08-06-2018, 09:50
I think I'd rather have the Bollinger, but that's kind a nifty.
Seems like it'd be easy enough to use this technology in trailers to have an electric power assist on the axle of the trailer. If you're only using it up steep grades, the charge should last longer and allow for a smaller battery pack. I'm sure there are much more cool ways to integrate that system into a bigger trailer like a fifth wheel as well.
Better gas mileage for the tow vehicle, integrated electrical for the living spaces, solar panels on top, lots of possibilities.
It takes energy to recharge batteries, so you can't create a perpetual electric motor system that regenerates itself by turning the wheels without a loss somewhere else. Charging the trailer would increase load on the tow vehicle.
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Martinjmpr
08-06-2018, 12:27
Seems like it'd be easy enough to use this technology in trailers to have an electric power assist on the axle of the trailer. If you're only using it up steep grades, the charge should last longer and allow for a smaller battery pack. I'm sure there are much more cool ways to integrate that system into a bigger trailer like a fifth wheel as well.
Better gas mileage for the tow vehicle, integrated electrical for the living spaces, solar panels on top, lots of possibilities.
Hmmm..interesting idea. It would certainly change the way vehicles tow.
Biggest issue I can see is cost and complexity. Might work with big commercial trailers but for anything that is for sale to a private user I would think such technology would be cost prohibitive.
I've seen first-hand the kinds of "corner cutting" that is necessary in order to sell RVs at a competitive price, so I can't imagine this making the cut to a consumer.
The window lines on the Atlis rendered images look like a Chevy Colorado.
Yes, electric motors can produce loads of torque (this is why trains have been using them for decades). You don't get something for nothing. More batteries = more weight to start and stop. More batteries = longer recharge times. Until they can come up with a better way to store electricity, you aren't going to have something you can run as long as there's fuel in the tank.
For OTR electric trucks, they will probably come up with interchangeable battery packs at some point (if they keep heading down that path).
A hybrid makes more sense to me. Use the regenerative braking and electric motors for getting going again.
It takes energy to recharge batteries, so you can't create a perpetual electric motor system that regenerates itself by turning the wheels without a loss somewhere else. Charging the trailer would increase load on the tow vehicle.
I'm not talking about any charging while towing, except for when braking. It'd just be like whatever is used in an electric vehicle, only simpler.
Hmmm..interesting idea. It would certainly change the way vehicles tow.
Biggest issue I can see is cost and complexity. Might work with big commercial trailers but for anything that is for sale to a private user I would think such technology would be cost prohibitive.
I've seen first-hand the kinds of "corner cutting" that is necessary in order to sell RVs at a competitive price, so I can't imagine this making the cut to a consumer.
I think it'd really have a market on big rigs, in fact to the point that I'm surprised it's not a government requirement already. A big rig could even have a diesel generator I suppose. Retrofitting truck stops to incorporate charging stations seems reasonable. The re-charge under braking would be even more helpful for big rigs.
As for personally owned recreational trailers, I don't see how cost would be much of an issue. Those are pure luxury items to begin with and people spend incredible amounts on them to start with. The durability of trailers could increase and the extra weight wouldn't be as big of a deal with the electric assist. I'd think a possible limiting factor would be the total weight of the trailer for periods of no assist. If the trailer battery runs out, then you just tow like normal. However, I could see people buying stuff that is realistically too big for their tow vehicle, with the idea that they'll never run out of battery, then getting into trouble when they do. I wish I were in the position to capitalize on this idea. I'd start looking into this today if I was already a trailer manufacturer.
Regen braking puts some electrons back in the batteries, but the method alone is insufficient. You also have to account for the extra weight of the trailers for the motors and electrics. There's also a reason that electric vehicles concentrate so much effort on aerodynamics as moving air takes more effort/energy. The Atlis concept is about as aerodynamic as a backyard shed.
For the vehicle in the OP, The Ford F-150 3.0l Power Stroke Diesel has a range over 750 miles and officially gets 30 mpg (but I did see a video review where they got 33.6 mpg on a one tank road trip). Fill the tank in a few minutes and you have another 750.
I think there are some crossed signals here. I never said that batteries would be powered solely with regenerative braking. I propose that an electric assist trailer would require less "range" than a full electric vehicle because it is only assisting up steep grades. I propose that the weight and space of additional batteries would be partially mitigated by the part-time duty. Where the factors meet for optimum efficiency as far as what grade to assist, when battery and motor weight become more of a burden than a hindrance will be up to the engineers to decide.
As for the position of "electric isn't there yet," that is a failing position to take, every time. I can't think of any technology that is better right out of the box. While technological advances sometimes feel like they happen overnight, they very rarely ever do. Incrementalism is the name of the game, and you can't work out every bug and measure every metric until you put stuff onto the market and start using it. The cheapest smart phone you can buy today is better than the original Iphone. Cell phones get better year after year, but people tend to forget that it is a process.
I'd love to see this with a small diesel generator built in for on the go charging
I don't know enough about the RV market to know if it'd appeal more to rich folks with big 5th wheels that'd want better towing mpg, or more middle class folks with SUV's that'd like to feel more comfortable towing medium sized travel trailers.
On a side note, would some heavy batteries in the lowest part of the trailer help any with stability in high winds? Would it take away too much water storage space? Could the regen braking level be adjusted? Very aggressive regen braking would be good for navigating down steep grades. Between solar panels and regen braking as a trickle charge, perhaps full recharge times would be reduced, but of course I don't know.
As for the position of "electric isn't there yet," that is a failing position to take, every time. I can't think of any technology that is better right out of the box. While technological advances sometimes feel like they happen overnight, they very rarely ever do. Incrementalism is the name of the game, and you can't work out every bug and measure every metric until you put stuff onto the market and start using it. The cheapest smart phone you can buy today is better than the original Iphone. Cell phones get better year after year, but people tend to forget that it is a process.
Cell phones vs. electric vehicles isn't a realistic comparison. We understand the technology to make computers faster and more power efficient (finer lithography and new compounds for creating smaller/more efficient transistors). Electric vehicles on the other hand have similar limitations as to when the electrification of vehicles craze of the 1920's was attempted. We need a more effective way to store electricity than the battery technology currently available.
We're repeating history from when the automobile was invented with car companies popping up all over the place. How many of them were successful? A tiny few.
I don't buy into the Tesla hype. You can't glaze over the realities with some Steve Jobsian Reality Distortion Field.
I'll wait till I can get one for $10k used that I can run recycled fuel thru
There would have been zero successful car companies if no one would have tried to field a product because "we aren't there yet." Incrementalism in technology isn't only reserved for computers. There is evidence for it in pretty much everything.
hollohas
08-06-2018, 15:54
For the vehicle in the OP, The Ford F-150 3.0l Power Stroke Diesel has a range over 750 miles and officially gets 30 mpg (but I did see a video review where they got 33.6 mpg on a one tank road trip). Fill the tank in a few minutes and you have another 750.
Is that a new engine offering in the F150?
Zundfolge
08-06-2018, 16:08
As for the position of "electric isn't there yet," that is a failing position to take, every time.
There would have been zero successful car companies if no one would have tried to field a product because "we aren't there yet." Incrementalism in technology isn't only reserved for computers. There is evidence for it in pretty much everything.
In general I agree, EV will be the future (and sooner than many would think). But the idea that there is any EV currently on the market (or soon to hit the market) that is superior to ICE at this point is foolishness. Diesel pickups are clearly not for chumps and probably won't be for a decade at least.
I bet there would even be a market for electric assist wheelbarrows and garden wagons.
I'd take an electric assist game cart if it were allowed in walk-in areas.
Jeffrey Lebowski
08-06-2018, 16:27
I think I'd rather have the Bollinger, but that's kind a nifty.
I’m just under #4000 on the list for Bollinger, and love the modularity, but this is really cool. I agree with whoever said it: vaporware until otherwise, but it is definitely coming. Same with supercars. It is about performance, not green, the latter is a nice side benefit.
I’ll probably pass on the Bollinger until I see what the support infrastructure is though.
Is that a new engine offering in the F150?
Yes, sir. I've also got my eye open for details on the new 3.0l I-6 Duramax Turbo Diesel coming to the 2019 Silverado/Sierra.
The 2018 F-150. Six powerful engines. Now including diesel. (https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/features/Power/)
Same with supercars. It is about performance, not green, the latter is a nice side benefit.
Being done by Porsche and McLaren that I recall. I know Ferrari is also in testing. Using the electric motors as an assist makes a lot of sense, particularly on the low end.
After years of skepticism, Ferrari is testing an electric supercar (https://qz.com/1259523/electric-cars-ferrari-is-testing-a-hybrid-supercar/)
Right now electric cars are not lucrative for automakers, compared to their combustion-engine models. But they’re under intense pressure to electrify all or most of their model ranges within the next few years or face penalties for not hitting their CO2 targets—not to mention falling behind their competitors. They also need to keep catering to their wealthy customers by giving them an alternative to the pioneering Tesla S.
Porsche is already streets ahead of Ferrari, with its Mission E slated for launch (https://qz.com/1232575/porsches-mission-e-will-compete-with-tesla-with-a-2019-release-for-the-high-performance-electric-car/) at the end of next year, and the Mission E Cross Turismo after that. Bentley, Aston Martin, and Jaguar are already gearing up to debut high-performance hybrids too.
Maybe instead of rolling coal, trucks of the future will have Tesla coils instead of exhaust pipes and put out displays of sparks.
I was hoping for something more along the lines of a directional Electro Magnetic Pulser at the touch of a switch. I would love something to blast the bomity boom boom music blasters. Also it would be a safety service to fry some peoples cell phones.
Where is all the electricity going to come from? It has to be generated and transported. That is going to cost if and when it ever get done. We also need a major breakthrough in both of those technologies for all electric vehicles to succeed.
68Charger
08-06-2018, 17:59
The whole design of Electric traction motors with a generator power plant has one big disadvantage that some have mentioned here... but I think it's the #1 problem with a consumer grade pickukp attempting to implement: WEIGHT
more weight means less payload, worse efficiency, more wear and tear on suspension components, tires, brakes (Trucks cannot brake by regen alone), heavier suspension means ride quality suffers, regulations on vehicle class GWR, etc...
The design works well with locomotives, they have low friction steel wheels and are frequently pulling over 10,000 Tons... and you need weight for traction on the locomotive.
Big ocean vessels are carrying very heavy loads as well, so weight is less of a factor...
For any vehicle that someone with a class D driver's license (non commercial) is going to handle, and weight is something you're going to be fighting against...
And the biggest problem with all EV design is charging station distances... I guess if you never leave the city, you'll be fine... but considering how many times I drove our 2 trucks between Penrose, CO and Canton, TX to move here... ~800 miles, and a large section between S Colorado and Amarillo... ~235 mi between Tesla Superchargers, and almost 300 miles if your charging port isn't the same as Tesla's... A Pure EV truck would be 100% no-go on that route with a trailer.
Because they don't make long enough underwater rated extension cords?
Hahaha!!! [ROFL1]
I'm not talking about any charging while towing, except for when braking. It'd just be like whatever is used in an electric vehicle, only simpler.
I think it'd really have a market on big rigs, in fact to the point that I'm surprised it's not a government requirement already. A big rig could even have a diesel generator I suppose. Retrofitting truck stops to incorporate charging stations seems reasonable. The re-charge under braking would be even more helpful for big rigs.
As for personally owned recreational trailers, I don't see how cost would be much of an issue. Those are pure luxury items to begin with and people spend incredible amounts on them to start with. The durability of trailers could increase and the extra weight wouldn't be as big of a deal with the electric assist. I'd think a possible limiting factor would be the total weight of the trailer for periods of no assist. If the trailer battery runs out, then you just tow like normal. However, I could see people buying stuff that is realistically too big for their tow vehicle, with the idea that they'll never run out of battery, then getting into trouble when they do. I wish I were in the position to capitalize on this idea. I'd start looking into this today if I was already a trailer manufacturer.
People already buy too much trailer for their TV (tow vehicle).
The larger luxo fifth wheels (Spacecraft, Continental, New Horizon, DRV) are already uber expensive and so long and heavy, most require a CDL and Tractor to pull.
So what's a few more pounds of weight and electrical complexity right?
Is the front trunk big enough for a honda e2000i and a gas can?
Is the front trunk big enough for a honda e2000i and a gas can?
Now you're getting into Top Gear's Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust (aka "Geoff") electric car territory. I think they used a diesel generator.
I actually have a 3kw diesel multiphase sitting around
Also my 5th wheel has a 5500 gas gen with 30gallon tank on board...
I'm surprised no one has brought up the fear of something going wrong with wiring or programming and the driver being put into a situation where the trailer is powering when it shouldn't be. That's already a concern with drive by wire tech though, as we saw with the out of control Prius incidents.
BlasterBob
08-07-2018, 10:28
The design works well with locomotives, they have low friction steel wheels and are frequently pulling over 10,000 Tons... and you need weight for traction on the locomotive.
Those steel wheels of railroad equipment on steel rails are some of the most efficient modes of hauling freight etc. The amount of actual contact between the rails with those steel wheels is around one inch per rail car. Difficult to believe this. Hence, efficient low resistance/drag.
Yeah, this is going way off subject of diesels in road vehicles. Sorry!
Looks like someone already had the idea for an electric trailer assist and made an attempt.
https://www.truckinginfo.com/156759/hybrid-electric-drive-trailer-tandem-promises-quick-payback
Website: https://www.hyliion.com/how-it-works/
I thought Coke was doing a hybrid trailer combo a few years ago. Not much info on the details, but I'm pretty sure the trailer has extra batteries. It was mostly for local routes.
I can see that the way of the world is to go "green" and "electric" and "high tech", BUT I've owned my 01 F250 with 7.3 since back in 04. She doesn't have 200,000 miles yet and barring a major wreck that totals her, I plan to never need to buy another big truck. I wonder if any of the new electrics will be on the road after 20, 30, years? If they are will it be after motor replacements, or electronic upgrades, battery replacements at what cost?
The Atlis looks like a neat concept, but I don't see them as competing with Tesla any time soon on account of the fact that Tesla has stood up the manufacturing infrastructure to make vehicles at scale.
Tesla is already ahead of the curve on pretty much everything. Largest battery capacity/range, good looking, nationwide super charging network enabling long-range travel, literally the biggest battery factory in the world, hell, the Model 3 has already cracked the top 10 for sales among sedans.
On top of that, Tesla has already announced plans for a pickup truck to hit the market after the release of the Model Y, so Atlis has their work cut out for them.
At this point, Bollinger is closer to production, but even they will be a boutique manufacturer that probably only builds a couple thousand vehicles a year. (BTW, for the guy with the Bollinger reservation, if you get one, can I have a ride? :-) )
I can see that the way of the world is to go "green" and "electric" and "high tech", BUT I've owned my 01 F250 with 7.3 since back in 04. She doesn't have 200,000 miles yet and barring a major wreck that totals her, I plan to never need to buy another big truck. I wonder if any of the new electrics will be on the road after 20, 30, years? If they are will it be after motor replacements, or electronic upgrades, battery replacements at what cost?
Electric vehicles are much more mechanically simple than traditional ICE-powered ones. The motors should last longer, and there's data now available on high-milage first gen Tesla Model S's that shows battery degradation isn't a huge deal, something like less than 10% in 100,000+ miles. My expectation would be that if you hang on to an EV for long enough, you might eventually replace the battery packs just due to the fact that incremental battery improvements will presumably yield batteries that give you longer range, better temperature tolerance, etc.
Aloha_Shooter
08-08-2018, 10:17
The Porsche Tayman is going to rock. Tesla broke the ice and makes some good vehicles but I think they're in for a world of hurt as real car companies get in the mix.
The Porsche Tayman is going to rock. Tesla broke the ice and makes some good vehicles but I think they're in for a world of hurt as real car companies get in the mix.
WARNING: word wall ahead.....
It's going to rock based on what? Not trying to be a dick but what about that car excites you in 2018? About the only thing they mention that will be different than other EVs is battery cooling for prolonged power delivery and increasing the top speed. So? When I was 20 I thought top speed was everything and now that I'm... not 20.. I realize that the 150mph top speed of current EVs is more than enough. It may be more track worthy as well which I expect but that's a much more niche market to tap and won't hurt Tesla much who has an eye squarely on the largest market segments. If what you're after is pure performance numbers look no further than the new Tesla Roadster that will be coming out around the same time. At this point I don't think Tesla is too worried about "real car companies" anymore now that they've established themselves.
The reason I say this is that we now have a 4dr sedan that's been out for 5 years that does 0-60 in about two-and-a-half seconds and never requires you needing to visit a gas station or get an oil change. On top of that the level of features and whiz-bang things the vehicle does are limitless with more coming online weekly with OTA updates. The point I'm making is that now, all these years later, the "real car companies" want to get onboard only to try to do damage control at this point. They see the undeniable market share shift and they can no longer ignore the "Indy car marker with bright ideas that will never succeed" and continue business as usual relying on their brand and reputation. We finally have a challenger to the throne and it, even if you don't give a hobo's crap about the environmental aspects, is building a car with specs that are decimating it's competition in almost every category. They're also establishing themselves as a long-term reputable entity and once that happens the "real car companies" will have nothing to lean on to make sales.
If they had actually attempted to revolutionize the way we think of cars anytime over the last several decades maybe Tesla wouldn't even exist. But now they do through necessity. Not only does Tesla exist but it represents something that a LOT of consumers are looking for in today's market: change. It's a direct shot to the status quo and I for one am thankful someone has finally come along to challenge the "too big to fail" entities who have done just enough innovation to stay neck and neck with their competition who is also trying to do just enough to get by w/o putting forth too much effort. They capitalize on old ideas and existing platforms as much as possible because it betters the bottom line. It's a collective race to the bottom with everyone doing just enough to not get fired... how long could you keep your job with that mentality?
If you've driven one of these Tesla vehicles you immediately realize how much of a departure they are from what have come to expect from basic transportation as they are anything but, even in their most basic of configurations. I'm sure this will sound corny to some but as someone who doesn't just see his vehicles as a point A to point B affair these vehicles are next to life changing. It really is that much different than even the nicest of vehicles you can buy today. They offer so many features that today's car's aren't even capable of and will cause them to be many years behind the curve of innovation. Personally, I'd rather support the innovation that forced the hand of all of those who fought innovation tooth and nail. To me, Tesla embodies the American spirit in all of it's greatest ways and I'm still unsure why so many refuse to accept what accomplishments they've achieved over the few short years they've been in business... each step of the way being told they can't do any of them. This has a lot to do with Tesla's meteoric rise in popularity because it's not just another car maker but a new way of thinking of the segment entirely. There's a LOT more to Tesla than just making cars and we as consumers will benefit greatly from it.
After having a love affair with cars/trucks/bikes nearly my whole life -from Lambo posters on my wall and cleaning the neighbors Chevelle SS on the weekends for $5 as a kid to buying my first car and obsessing over it 24/7 and learning every nut and bolt of that vehicle and finally to modifying everything I've owned to make it exactly what I wanted- I can say that I will most likely never buy a traditional ICE vehicle again. If I do, it will be a toy like another Supra or a GTR or something I break out on special occasions and spend more time wrenching on and drooling over than actually driving. More of a hobby and a stroll down memory lane and we all know that those sorts of purchases don't need to make sense. We work hard and invest wisely for decades so that we can make one of them every now and then. Otherwise, I'm done buying ICE vehicles. Our current sedan is one I've loved since I bought it brand new and we now have over 100k trouble-free miles on. Hopefully we can wring another 100k or so out of it because the next vehicle we buy will be a Model S. I don't plan to finance and I absolutely HATE losing money on cars so I will pay cash for something used in the $35-$40k range that has already taken the largest depreciation hit and has the options we're looking for.
The hope is that sometime after that Tesla will have a pick-up that lives up to the specs the Model S and 3 have laid down before it and I will then replace my truck (which I also love) using the same metrics. For me, I can't see "investing" in what just feels like yesterday's technology already. I think of all of the moving parts and things that can fail on our car and truck and I have no idea how these things stay moving down the road when I think about it and it doesn't make me comfortable. From a vehicle that has thousands of moving parts (ICE) to one that has hundreds or moving parts (EV) the difference is undeniable. I've had electric mowers, weed eaters and snow blowers for well over a decade now so I've seen first hand not only how the technology has grown but what it's capable of. I think we're on the cusp of seeing a massive depreciation of older ICE vehicles other than special & unique collector vehicles that is going to signal the permanent shift to the ongoing EV trend.
Once higher mile versions of these cars can be had for $20k or less.... then what? Once the Model 3 can be had brand new for $35k less any tax incentives (at this exact moment they total $12,500 in the state of Colorado effectively making the vehicle $22,500 brand new if you could order the Model 3 as a true base model) and those start popping up used for half of that a few years later... what's the incentive to buy gasoline powered vehicles other than niche requirements for some that are becoming less and less with each new innovation in the EV segment?
All of that w/o even a passing mention of the other ways (Power grid batteries, solar, SpaceX, etc.) that Tesla is investing in to drive innovation that we will all benefit from in one way or another.
tldr; Tesla broke the ice which is forcing others to innovate and compete. As a result we as the consumer win no matter what the outcome.
Tesla is already ahead of the curve on pretty much everything. Largest battery capacity/range, good looking, nationwide super charging network enabling long-range travel, literally the biggest battery factory in the world, hell, the Model 3 has already cracked the top 10 for sales among sedans.
The Tesla 3 cracking the top 10 in sales has a hell of a lot more to do with the bottom falling out of the sedan market. Ford plans to only make 1 of them going forward. The market is primarily CUV/SUV/Truck in this country.
As to scale, people get excited about Tesla trying to hit 5,000 vehicles in a week. GM makes over 8,000 per day. Car manufacturers announce new products and then they show up at dealers to purchase in volume. No fanfare whatsoever. Yet, people get excited when Tesla loses a little less money in a quarter than expected. I'm not drinking the Kool-aid.
Car companies are really good at making cars. To make electric cars isn't outside their ability.
Tesla isn't building base 3's. They're selling $70K+ 3's. The production volume of Tesla is leading to the expiration of some of the 'free' tax dollars subsidizing this horseshit.
WHEN Tesla shits the bed, the vehicles will no longer have OTA updates, etc.
Not buying an electric vehicle, for 90% of people, because it can't do 500 miles in one jaunt, is the same as buying a pick-up that you actually use once a year.
Just got back from a road trip to the Olympic Peninsula, then to Whistler, BC, then back through Seattle to home. Day 1 was from Highlands Ranch to Kellogg, Idaho. Do that in an EV.
75610
I think there is a community of people who do stuff like that, but I don't know enough about it to know the trip details. The point still stands though, and this coming from someone who drives more than almost everyone but truck drivers and door to door vacuum salesmen.
68Charger
08-08-2018, 22:42
I think there is a community of people who do stuff like that, but I don't know enough about it to know the trip details. The point still stands though, and this coming from someone who drives more than almost everyone but truck drivers and door to door vacuum salesmen.
It's all in the fine print (which is grounded in physics)...
I've seen Tesla model S owners tout "170 Mi charge in 30 minutes"... AT A TESLA "SUPERCHARGER" station...up to 120 KW per vehicle, but 145 KW distributed at one station... 75 minutes for a full charge! But that's for a model S that's ONLY 4,647 to 4,941# curb weight.. (Gross vehicle weight rating: 5,732 to 5,997 lbs)... And with the lowest cd od any produ production vehicle
Need more than 5 passengers that are less than average size? The model X suv is 5,185 to 5,531 # curb weight.. (Gross vehicle weight rating: 6,581 to 6,768 lbs)... and with the lowest cd of any SUV. same charge capacity, just less range.
Those weights are without any on-board power genset, and without pickup level payload capacity. They're going to have to bump up charging rates beyond that for a pickup towing a trailer... not to mention are facilities available at all stations for vehicles with cargo? What about live cargo?
The grid power draw requirements will increase exponentially...
The grid power draw requirements will increase exponentially...
Of course, just like with any new technology.
I think Jer pretty much nailed it with his post. It doesn't really matter if Tesla fails or not, because the bar has already been set, and the public has already been given a taste of the future; regardless of how many people have actually purchased an EV vehicle at this point. It just takes a company to start the ball rolling.
Aloha_Shooter
08-08-2018, 23:11
I'm saying the Porsche Tayman will rock because they've been combining lessons learned with their mainline cars and lessons learned at Le Mans. My cousin is a regional sales manager for Tesla and was bragging about its performance. When I told him I expected him to take me on straights but that I'd get him on curves, all he could talk about was how the car's weight let it take curves -- sorry, but the automotive engineers at Porsche or GM or Ford have other tricks up their sleeves besides making the car heavy with a low center of gravity.
Despite all the Tesla hype, the company has been surviving on decapitalization write-offs and tax rebates. They still haven't made an actual profit. Yes, they approach things differently -- that's not always good, as their bitter experience with the Model 3 is bearing out. Musk is going through the same thing with SpaceX -- some good, original think in the way they approach space launch but also relearning lessons the "bigs" learned 40-50 years ago because they roll in thinking they already know everything they need.
The X model my cousin drove looked great and I'd totally want an EV if I was back in Hawaii with a daily commute of 10-15 miles and a longest ever drive of maybe 50-60 miles but I wouldn't have wanted it for my drive to Tucson last month and I don't want a vehicle that "bricks" if you let the battery drain completely.
Bailey Guns
08-09-2018, 06:50
I say the more choices, the merrier. I'm not happy about tax dollars subsidizing auto makers like Tesla...but it happens all the time and it's been happening for years with all the others at some point. So apparently the government doesn't give a damn about what I like or don't like getting subsidies. Go figure.
If a manufacturer can make an EV that can do the same things a vehicle currently powered by gas/diesel can do, why not?
But I'm not giving up my diesel-fueled truck, car or tractor any time soon. Likely not in my lifetime.
asystejs
08-09-2018, 08:07
Just got back from a road trip to the Olympic Peninsula, then to Whistler, BC, then back through Seattle to home.
Day 1 was from Highlands Ranch to Kellogg, Idaho. Do that in an EV.
I wouldn't want to do that Day 1 in any land based vehicle.
asystejs
08-09-2018, 08:08
Just got back from a road trip to the Olympic Peninsula, then to Whistler, BC, then back through Seattle to home.
Day 1 was from Highlands Ranch to Kellogg, Idaho. Do that in an EV.
I wouldn't want to do that Day 1 in any land based vehicle.
The Tesla 3 cracking the top 10 in sales has a hell of a lot more to do with the bottom falling out of the sedan market. Ford plans to only make 1 of them going forward. The market is primarily CUV/SUV/Truck in this country.
So, basically Tesla is the one company that is making a sedan that anyone actually wants.
As to scale, people get excited about Tesla trying to hit 5,000 vehicles in a week. GM makes over 8,000 per day. Car manufacturers announce new products and then they show up at dealers to purchase in volume. No fanfare whatsoever. Yet, people get excited when Tesla loses a little less money in a quarter than expected. I'm not drinking the Kool-aid.
Its funny watching the people who dislike Tesla continually shift goal posts. In ten years they've gone from manufacturing a boutique sportscar for rich guys to bringing to market the first viable electric vehicle that's so desireable they're having issues meeting the demand. That's an incredible amount of progress by any metric, yet those who are critical continually harp on and on about how their production numbers should be higher.
Car companies are really good at making cars. To make electric cars isn't outside their ability.
And yet not a single one of them managed to make a viable electric car until Tesla started eating out of their rice bowl, and even now, the only electric cars that are on par with the Teslas are luxury vehicles for the rich; the Jaguar iPACE and Porsche Taycan. Oh, and they've both had their delivery dates pushed back. Furthermore, they're going to find themselves resource constrained as demand for lithium and cobalt increases. Sure, the legacy car makers have gobs of money, but I sure can't seem to find their gigafactories or super charging stations on Google Maps. Perhaps you could post a link?
Tesla isn't building base 3's. They're selling $70K+ 3's. The production volume of Tesla is leading to the expiration of some of the 'free' tax dollars subsidizing this horseshit.
No one in the history of buying a car, ever, has ever bought the base model. As a general rule, I drive late-model shitboxes and spend as little on vehicles as I can, and even none of those have been a base model. I would expect that a car aimed squarely at the middle-middle to upper-middle class market would apply.
WHEN Tesla shits the bed, the vehicles will no longer have OTA updates, etc.[/QUOTE]
People have been claiming Tesla is dying from day one and it simply hasn't happened. it's no different than the mass media polls claiming that Donald Trump only had a 1% chance of winning the election, or all the times that the death of Amazon was claimed to be days away.
Just got back from a road trip to the Olympic Peninsula, then to Whistler, BC, then back through Seattle to home. Day 1 was from Highlands Ranch to Kellogg, Idaho. Do that in an EV.
75610
Alex Roy has run multiple Cannonball Runs in a Tesla Model 3. His last one was 50 hours and 16 minutes. This compares to Ed Bolian's run earlier this year, with a highly modified Mercedes CL55 at 28 hours and 50 minutes.
Given that the Model 3 was a completely unmodified factory vehicle, that is the first generation of a completely new technology, a cross-country run of 50 hours is a fairly astounding feat, especially given that there are so many people (some apparently here in this very thread) who think such a feat is a complete impossibility.
Anything is possible with enough time. Why do it in almost twice the time, unless it's sous vide?
Tesla's 3rd assembly line is in tents. That doesn't scream 'tooling up for the long-term'.
As to not wanting to drive that far in a single day in any vehicle, it's easier in a Mercedes GL 450 that rides on air. Driving through country like northern Wyoming, Montana (alongside the Clark Fork), and the Idaho panhandle is amazing. I like driving, not waiting for my $70K+ car to keep recharging.
If you Tesla lovers think the company is doing everything right, how many of you own one of them?
Anything is possible with enough time. Why do it in almost twice the time, unless it's sous vide?
The point is that one of the most difficult endurance challenges in driving has been done with an EV, multiple times, with a vehicle that is using v1.0 technology, completely contrary to the claims that EVs are range limited.
Pointing out that the same task can be completed faster, with a purpose-modified ICE-powered car turns out to be just a form of moving the goalposts.
Tesla's 3rd assembly line is in tents. That doesn't scream 'tooling up for the long-term'.
It's a rigid structure, and given that standing up a new building in California is probably a zoning nightmare, I don't see the problem so long as they're able to keep building to the same standard. Thus far I've seen no evidence that cars built on one line are any worse than the ones built on another. It's all just been speculative FUD.
As to not wanting to drive that far in a single day in any vehicle, it's easier in a Mercedes GL 450 that rides on air. Driving through country like northern Wyoming, Montana (alongside the Clark Fork), and the Idaho panhandle is amazing. I like driving, not waiting for my $70K+ car to keep recharging.
But I thought it wasn't possible to drive an electric vehicle outside of urban/suburban areas? Now you're saying you don't like the fact that it takes a bit longer to charge? Besides, I don't think Ed Bolian cared about how well the car's suspension and seats cradled him, especially given that the vehicle had an absolutely enormous auxiliary fuel tank.
If you Tesla lovers think the company is doing everything right, how many of you own one of them?
I'm still reasonably happy with the car I have, which is paid off. I'm also looking at buying a new house in the next couple of years, so the expense of another vehicle isn't in the cards at this point.
If you think Tesla is doomed, why aren't you shorting their stock?
I have no idea why you're fixated on a modified endurance car. A Tesla can eventually get somewhere if you have no time constraints and can take a route with adequate recharging stations. Someone can sail in a boat around the world taking quite some time to do it. What's your point?
It's pretty easy to drive across country in a vehicle conventionally re-fueled in a few minutes time. This fuel is also readily available, even in some fairly remote parts of our country. If you want to spend that much for a vehicle that will primarily be operated only in your metro area, go for it. Personally, I don't want to have to hyper-mile a vehicle to drive to my company's facility in Cheyenne and back. If you want to try and take long trips in your Tesla and don't mind killing some hours along the way for recharging, knock yourself out.
I don't put my money in play when the company is run by a nut with the stock being pumped by the MSM and social media.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy a Tesla?
I have no idea why you're fixated on a modified endurance car. A Tesla can eventually get somewhere if you have no time constraints and can take a route with adequate recharging stations. Someone can sail in a boat around the world taking quite some time to do it. What's your point?
I'm not fixated on a modified endurance car, I'm just simply using it as a point of comparison for roughly the same run being made at roughly the same time frame. Not many of these runs are made, and I doubt any have been done with an unmodified ICE vehicle since the heyday of the race in the 1970s.
The point here, is that there are people who constantly harp about how range limits and charge times are some kind of show stopper, when in fact, even with a first generation Tesla, it clearly is not, as demonstrated by someone who's undertaken the sort of long-distance endurance driving that very, very, very few people would ever actually attempt. Extrapolating that feat to the sort of long distance driving the average person undertakes once or twice a year seems like a fairly easy exercise, basically assume that maybe it takes you 30 minutes to top up the battery vs. 10 minutes to fill up a gas tank.
It's pretty easy to drive across country in a vehicle conventionally re-fueled in a few minutes time. This fuel is also readily available, even in some fairly remote parts of our country. If you want to spend that much for a vehicle that will primarily be operated only in your metro area, go for it. Personally, I don't want to have to hyper-mile a vehicle to drive to my company's facility in Cheyenne and back. If you want to try and take long trips in your Tesla and don't mind killing some hours along the way for recharging, knock yourself out.
Sure, if you're a travelling salesman or whatever, a Tesla probably wouldn't be a good choice, you'd be better off with some econobox that gets good mileage. But most people don't regularly drive those distances, anyway, so the additional few minutes spent at a Super Charger twice a year wouldn't be a big deal, especially when compared to the fact that people driving Teslas never have to stop to refuel when commuting or even taking a day trip. I will, however, note that a Google Maps query puts the distance between Highlands Ranch (where you're presumably located) and Cheyenne, WY at 118 miles, or a 236 mile round trip. That's well within the stated range of the Tesla Model 3 at an EPA-rated 310 miles.
I don't put my money in play when the company is run by a nut with the stock being pumped by the MSM and social media.
People who are nuts generally don't deliver, so it would appear that shorting the company would be a good strategy if he's even half as crazy as claimed.
So far as I've seen, the MSM basically hates Tesla. Most of the large autoblogs dislike him, the major car magazines give no or faint coverage (probably because Tesla doesn't buy two page spreads advertising their vehicles) and the financial and news outlets hate him because he doesn't engage in leftist identity politics genuflecting. And that's before you even look at the big time financial guys shorting the stock and their mouthpieces in the press who constantly bang on about how terrible Tesla is doing.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy a Tesla?
Asked and answered.
68Charger
08-09-2018, 12:45
The point is that one of the most difficult endurance challenges in driving has been done with an EV, multiple times, with a vehicle that is using v1.0 technology, completely contrary to the claims that EVs are range limited.
To the point of the Original post about a EV TRUCK, towing a Trailer... it's going to need one hell of a battery pack to have decent range when pulling 35k GCWR
bigger battery pack means longer charging times for the same charging station... Tesla's 75 minutes for a full charge on a 100kWh battery pack would be 2.5 hours on a 200kWh battery pack... that's a long lunch, and just based on physics, could need to be done every 200-300 miles.
Now for a good portion of truck owners (likely those talking about F150s, and others who don't regularly use their truck like a real truck)... it should be fine, but towing a 15K Lb trailer cross-country is going to be a LOT of LONG recharging stops.
My real-world example of moving from Penrose to Canton would have likely result in a dead battery in the TX panhandle, unless the truck was packing a 300+kWh battery pack... The 120kW "Supercharger" Tesla stations aren't going to cut it... they'll need 500+kW on tap, with at least 300kW available per vehicle before the truck in the OP could be viable for any real long-distance hauling.
And I appreciate what Tesla has done, but I'm not remotely considering purchasing ANY $50k+ car... I'm getting ready to sell my most expensive vehicle (2007 Cummins 6.7L) for around $20k. I've got one daughter starting college this month, with 7+ years ahead of her (wants to be a PT Doc)... and 2 more kids behind her. So I'll stick with my $8,000 12v Cummins that I've had for years, and that leaves about $100k for diesel fuel, upgrades and repairs before I'm even close to what an EV truck would cost before it's first recharge.
If I win the lottery, I'll put a deposit on a new Roadster... but otherwise it's just not within my means unless I dip into retirement fund and/or tell the kids the world needs ditch diggers, too..
Do you think people had this same conversation about automobiles when they first appeared on the scene?
"My horse can graze while I take a dump in the woods. I don't have to carry any fuel."
"Trains have lines all the way across the country. How am I going to get fuel once I get outside the city?"
To the point of the Original post about a EV TRUCK, towing a Trailer... it's going to need one hell of a battery pack to have decent range when pulling 35k GCWR
bigger battery pack means longer charging times for the same charging station... Tesla's 75 minutes for a full charge on a 100kWh battery pack would be 2.5 hours on a 200kWh battery pack... that's a long lunch, and just based on physics, could need to be done every 200-300 miles.
Now for a good portion of truck owners (likely those talking about F150s, and others who don't regularly use their truck like a real truck)... it should be fine, but towing a 15K Lb trailer cross-country is going to be a LOT of LONG recharging stops.
My real-world example of moving from Penrose to Canton would have likely result in a dead battery in the TX panhandle, unless the truck was packing a 300+kWh battery pack... The 120kW "Supercharger" Tesla stations aren't going to cut it... they'll need 500+kW on tap, with at least 300kW available per vehicle before the truck in the OP could be viable for any real long-distance hauling.
And I appreciate what Tesla has done, but I'm not remotely considering purchasing ANY $50k+ car... I'm getting ready to sell my most expensive vehicle (2007 Cummins 6.7L) for around $20k. I've got one daughter starting college this month, with 7+ years ahead of her (wants to be a PT Doc)... and 2 more kids behind her. So I'll stick with my $8,000 12v Cummins that I've had for years, and that leaves about $100k for diesel fuel, upgrades and repairs before I'm even close to what an EV truck would cost before it's first recharge.
If I win the lottery, I'll put a deposit on a new Roadster... but otherwise it's just not within my means unless I dip into retirement fund and/or tell the kids the world needs ditch diggers, too..
I agree with your assessment, especially with respect to towing. It's also probably why Tesla isn't planning on doing a pickup truck until after 2020. Currently, for their Semi, Tesla is claiming a 500 mile range, fully loaded, but I would expect that they're banking on making at least a couple of incremental advances in battery technology for that the happen. Same goes for the slated 600 mile range of the Roadster 2.0.
68Charger
08-09-2018, 13:08
I agree with your assessment, especially with respect to towing. It's also probably why Tesla isn't planning on doing a pickup truck until after 2020. Currently, for their Semi, Tesla is claiming a 500 mile range, fully loaded, but I would expect that they're banking on making at least a couple of incremental advances in battery technology for that the happen. Same goes for the slated 600 mile range of the Roadster 2.0.
The Roadster 2.0 is another animal entirely... it will have 200kWh battery pack, but is likely at least as aerodynamic as the Model S... twice the battery, twice the range (likely a bit more lost due to weight of twice the battery) it's going to take 2.5 Hours for a full charge, but that's not that big of a deal when you have supercar performance... and it won't have nearly the load that trucks do. I'm sure Tesla's semis are packing huge battery packs... I'm curious how far they drive them, and where do they charge them?
Found this: https://electrek.co/2017/11/17/tesla-semi-electric-truck-specs-cost/
From that article:
Musk talked about the new megachargers adding 400 miles of range on the Tesla Semi in just 30 minutes. Using the same metrics released by Tesla for energy consumption, it would translate into roughly 1.6 MW charging or about more than 10 times more powerful than Tesla’s current Superchargers.
Martinjmpr
08-09-2018, 14:59
Do you think people had this same conversation about automobiles when they first appeared on the scene?
"My horse can graze while I take a dump in the woods. I don't have to carry any fuel."
"Trains have lines all the way across the country. How am I going to get fuel once I get outside the city?"
They absolutely did, and you know what? They were right!
Automobiles were toys until the infrastructure to support them was created.
Nobody's saying that EVs will never be practical. What we ARE saying is that with the current infrastructure and the current limits of battery technology, EVs are nowhere NEAR being close to replacing ICE vehicles even within the city limits. Once beyond the range of their initial battery charges, EVs are impractical for long distance travel.
And speaking of automobiles, long-distance automobile travel beyond the city limits was impractical until there was a highway infrastructure to support such travel. In the midwest, for example, where the awful roads would routinely become mud lakes in springtime, if you lived in one town and wanted to "drive" in another town, you loaded your car up on a flat bed railroad car and had it shipped to the town you wanted to drive to.
Modern, publicly-funded rural automobile roads weren't really a "thing" until after WW1 (when it famously took Eisenhower 62 days to get a military convoy from Washington, DC to San Francisco.)
https://www.history.com/news/the-epic-road-trip-that-inspired-the-interstate-highway-system
I know, that's exactly my point. I think people get lost in the heat of the argument on this. It sounds like some people are saying that EV can never replace ICE vehicles, so why even bother?
BladesNBarrels
08-09-2018, 16:29
ICE Vehicles good in real cold weather
75621
But there are always haters:
75622
Nobody's saying that EVs will never be practical. What we ARE saying is that with the current infrastructure and the current limits of battery technology, EVs are nowhere NEAR being close to replacing ICE vehicles even within the city limits. Once beyond the range of their initial battery charges, EVs are impractical for long distance travel. [/URL]
[word]
There need to be some major advances in energy storage, and there's nothing on the roadmap for at least a decade.
Aloha_Shooter
08-09-2018, 23:49
The point here, is that there are people who constantly harp about how range limits and charge times are some kind of show stopper, when in fact, even with a first generation Tesla, it clearly is not, as demonstrated by someone who's undertaken the sort of long-distance endurance driving that very, very, very few people would ever actually attempt. Extrapolating that feat to the sort of long distance driving the average person undertakes once or twice a year seems like a fairly easy exercise, basically assume that maybe it takes you 30 minutes to top up the battery vs. 10 minutes to fill up a gas tank.
The range limits and charge times are REAL and very much a showstopper when you're doing 800+ miles per day. I don't know where you get the idea that very few people attempt endurance driving as I've known tons of people who've done cross-country road trips. IIRC, Tesla's Supercharger gets the battery to 80% in 45 minutes. If you are doing over 600 miles, that charge added over an hour to your road trip, nearly 2 hours added each way for something like my recent drive to/from Tucson. I don't see a lot on Cannonball Runs per se these days but plenty of people do endurance drives whether it's driving between NY and FL or the East and West coasts, they just add in sensible overnight stops that you'd forgo in an actual Cannonball.
As far as I've seen, the MSM is in love with Tesla and Elon Musk. I don't know where you've seen all this negative coverage of Tesla except maybe in the autoblogs and car magazines where the authors and readers are interested in cars that actually finish the Nurburgring or Le Mans.
There is a place for everything, including EVs, but a lot of the buzz about Tesla is just that, buzz and hype. If a Tesla or Chevy's Bolt fit your driving pattern, great. If they don't, traditional car manufacturers are still making incredible improvements.
68Charger
08-10-2018, 06:48
Once the Tesla Mega-charger thingys are active for the Semis, we need to start a new tide pod challenge for the darwin-class millennial on youtube.
I call it the "lick a mega-charger challenge".
Wouldn't do a thing... there's a data handshake that takes place first, before the juice flows... but I like the way you think...
Just one more thing to think about- they know who is driving, how much power they're using, where they're going... makes it easier for them to track you when you plug your vehicle into the network every 150-300 miles... next thing you know, there will be people sharing information about charging stations that don't track you. [tinhat]
68Charger
08-10-2018, 07:03
I know, that's exactly my point. I think people get lost in the heat of the argument on this. It sounds like some people are saying that EV can never replace ICE vehicles, so why even bother?
IMHO, they're just explaining why they're not interested >at this time<... somebody has to be the pioneer that ponies up six figures for cars that have those limits... even if their motivation so they can be self-important pricks that believe that people using ICE's are neanderthals that are unworthy of their presence...
Once it's more adopted, and more infrastructure is in place and volume manufacturing brings prices down (which is starting to happen, but only starting)... then when they take a look at it, they'll go "hey, this could be a viable option" Tesla has the right idea building the network of charging stations that are high capacity to speed charging- it's just not enough to satisfy your average consumer >yet<
I'm in general agreement.
Martinjmpr
08-10-2018, 12:16
IMHO, they're just explaining why they're not interested >at this time<... somebody has to be the pioneer that ponies up six figures for cars that have those limits... even if their motivation so they can be self-important pricks that believe that people using ICE's are neanderthals that are unworthy of their presence...
Once it's more adopted, and more infrastructure is in place and volume manufacturing brings prices down (which is starting to happen, but only starting)... then when they take a look at it, they'll go "hey, this could be a viable option" Tesla has the right idea building the network of charging stations that are high capacity to speed charging- it's just not enough to satisfy your average consumer >yet<
There's also a flip side argument.
Those who say "look at the automobile - people said that never had a chance and they were wrong" are applying 20/20 hindsight by starting with something that's successful now but was once dismissed as a curiosity.
But in the history of automotive travel there are plenty of examples of the opposite: Things that were hailed as "the next big thing" by proponents but that turned out to be disastrous flops.
Steam Cars? Wankel Engines? Cars that could float or fly? Gas turbine engines?
All currently residing in the "what were they thinking?" section of the internet.
I think some form of electric propulsion will eventually become the standard for vehicles, but I'm not convinced it will be 100% electric because of both battery storage limits and charging time issues.
If I was to guess I'd say the "future standard" is going to be something like a fuel-cell hybrid or a hybrid using some other form of power to charge the batteries and create the electric power to move the vehicle.
If battery powered EV's do become a "standard" then I would expect it would radically change the way we travel. A multi day trip would not be done the way we do it now where we load up the SUV, fill it with gas and then spend 2 days driving to Grandma's house, stopping only for gas, meals, lodging or to take a photo next to the World's Largest Ball of Twine. Instead, you'd have to plan your trip to drive to, say, 75% of the battery limit (maybe 200 - 300 miles depending on the size of the vehicle) and then plan to stay several hours while parked at the charging station.
Another possibility might be charging stations at 100 mile intervals with cafe's, playgrounds, WiFi, etc, and the way to take the trip is to stop every 100 miles or so, spend an hour or two at the charging station and move on to the next one. I'm not sure that model would work in the sparsely populated West but you never know -we humans are endlessly adaptive. ;)
I like the idea of putting your car onto a train over large expanses of middle-of-nowhere.
68Charger
08-10-2018, 14:05
I like the idea of putting your car onto a train over large expanses of middle-of-nowhere.
That used to be the only way to get to Whittier, AK with your car/truck... but not because of "nowhere" but 2 tunnels thru mountains that are only train width.
now they have the tunnel paved, and it spends some time inbound, some time outbound, and some time for train traffic.
Those who say "look at the automobile - people said that never had a chance and they were wrong" are applying 20/20 hindsight by starting with something that's successful now but was once dismissed as a curiosity.
But in the history of automotive travel there are plenty of examples of the opposite: Things that were hailed as "the next big thing" by proponents but that turned out to be disastrous flops.
Steam Cars? Wankel Engines? Cars that could float or fly? Gas turbine engines?
All currently residing in the "what were they thinking?" section of the internet.
You left out the attempts at electric vehicles in the late 1800's & Early 1900's.
I've been in and out of this thread and haven't had a lot of time so... A few things here...
I haven't seen anyone mention the price per mile difference which is substantial especially if you take into account more than just gasoline v. electric power (which by itself is significant) but also account for oil changes and all of the wearable parts that need to be replaced regularly. I do my own maintenance on our vehicles and having to change oil and other regular maintenance type things can be a PITA... especially when they come up in the winter months. The idea of not having all of these accessory items to make everything work that eventually fail also appeals greatly to me. Talking of leaving someone stranded somewhere I'd rather be able to plan on my known range than have anyone of a myriad of devices leave me stranded somewhere w/o notice.
If you know/understand the limitations of any vehicle (EV or otherwise) your life will be less complicated. As that applies to EV vehicles you take into account your range when you plan trips. Personally I couldn't tell you the last time I took a super long road trip somewhere since gas prices shot up over $2/gal. Couple/few hours here and there but I don't just drive across the states for the hell of it. In fact, for me anyway, I might actually drive even MORE if I owned a Model S as many come with free super charging via the Tesla network that's all over the country.
Seriously, if you think you're going to get stranded anywhere pull up a map of where the network is today and were it will be this time next year and factor in the range of a Model S/X/3 and tell me why you think you'll be stranded anywhere. The idea that I can travel from one coast to the other w/o paying a penny out of my own pocket is appealing and this is one aspect nobody has weighed when discussing the differences between an ICE car and an EV.
There's a lot of inherent bonuses to driving EV as well that aren't being discussed. For starers, they're whisper quiet which is SO nice for having a conversation (in person or over the phone) even at highway speeds. The funny part is some complain about tire noise in EVs and it's pretty much just because you notice them now as quiet as the rest of the vehicle is. The ability to have your car 70 degrees when you get in no matter the outside temperature is insanely nice. No exhaust smell or noise. Not having to "run" the engine to keep certain things going.
As for attempts at the EV over a hundred years ago, it's important that we keep in mind that EV was going to be how vehicles were powered once the electric grid was beefed up and it wasn't until Henry Ford developed the assembly line that the ICE vehicle won favor with the consumer and that was largely due to cost savings and the ability to mass produce them and put them in driveways. Had he used an assembly line to crank out EVs we'd be having an entirely different conversation today.
The driving across country for free, at the cost of time, is an interesting point. On Wednesday, I spent 7 hours driving and about $90 in gas. I wonder how/if EV will change the way that business owners/contractors will be compensated for mileage and tax write offs. I think that stuff will change, but not for a while; so now might be the golden period for that. Even in my low mpg van my mileage compensation outweighs what it costs to fill the vehicle. An EV vehicle would just be icing on the cake for most stuff along the front range. I'd love an autonomous vehicle to drive for me so I could work between stops. My trip on Wednesday is a perfect example. 7 hours is an enormous amount of time to not be working. That's an entirely different conversation though.
Supercharging a Tesla is not "free". https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
Modern oils have reduced a lot of the "pain" of regular maintenance. My car typically goes in for service annually.
You can tout the crazy acceleration of the Tesla, but this will also mean reduced tire life.
There is no free ride. If you want an EV, knock yourself out and get back to us about the concessions that you end up having to make because of the platform. We know people that own EVs, and they're not evangelists that think Elon Musk is the new Jesus. They end up driving their ICE vehicles in the winter due to the reduced battery performance in the winter and the amount of power required to run heating/defrost. They run into range/time issues and use their ICE vehicles. If you think that an EV will do everything you need, get one. Then when you run into a situation where you can't count on your EV, then please share.
To be fair, I think there is pretty much no such thing as a one size fits all vehicle, no matter the power source. I'd consider an EV for my wife's next vehicle, if she'd start remembering to charge her cell phone.
There are lots of Tesla youtube video with issues in terms of repair/maintehance/cost.
If I must get Ev, I would rather go to non-tesla route.
Our ICE vehicles work for us, no matter the trip length, etc. As a secondary vehicle, an EV may make sense if you're primary tooling around town or commuting. I can't afford an EV for a part-time vehicle.
You had mentioned using Tesla Superchargers for business. The linked article above includes this;
As a commercial driver or operator, can I utilize the public Supercharger Network?
With the introduction of our Supercharger Fair Use Policy, we ask that vehicles used for commercial purposes not use the public Supercharger Network. If you are an interested commercial operator, please reach out to us so we can help recommend charging solutions that meet your business’ needs. Keeping the Supercharger Network available for non- commercial users will have a lasting positive impact on the Supercharger Network and Tesla customers as a whole.
Just ran across this EV news;
Fed-up locals are setting electric scooters on fire and burying them at sea (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/fed-up-locals-are-setting-electric-scooters-on-fire-and-burying-them-at-sea/ar-BBLLykO)
As cities from Santa Monica to Beverly Hills struggle to control a rapid proliferation of electric pay-per-mile scooters, some residents are taking matters into their own hands and waging a guerrilla war against the devices. These vandals are destroying or desecrating the vehicles in disturbingly imaginative ways, and celebrating their illegal deeds on social media - in full view of authorities and the public.
Supercharging a Tesla is not "free". https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
Modern oils have reduced a lot of the "pain" of regular maintenance. My car typically goes in for service annually.
You can tout the crazy acceleration of the Tesla, but this will also mean reduced tire life.
There is no free ride. If you want an EV, knock yourself out and get back to us about the concessions that you end up having to make because of the platform. We know people that own EVs, and they're not evangelists that think Elon Musk is the new Jesus. They end up driving their ICE vehicles in the winter due to the reduced battery performance in the winter and the amount of power required to run heating/defrost. They run into range/time issues and use their ICE vehicles. If you think that an EV will do everything you need, get one. Then when you run into a situation where you can't count on your EV, then please share.
You'll notice that numerous times I mentioned Model S specifically. Just about every single used & new Model S I've looked at buying includes free supercharging for life.
Modern oils aside we're still talking about oil changes that are non-existent on an EV.
Really? Reduced tire wear is your big selling point for slow vehicles? C'mon man. Talk about splitting hairs.
You have friends that drive an ICE vehicle in the winter due to reduced range? I'm dying to know more details. Even with something like a first generation Leaf the reduced range in the winter will still cover 95% of the average driver's daily needs. I'd like more details because this sounds like a load of horseshit if that's their only reason.
I heard about the scooter burning a few months ago, but never looked into it to see what it was all about.
Whatever your free for life promo is, it's not printed in Tesla's information;
Below are additional program details which apply to Tesla vehicles under the Supercharger program.
Model S and X receive 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits annually.
For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee applies.
Model 3 does not receive annual Supercharger credits, and a small fee applies to Supercharge.
You have friends that drive an ICE vehicle in the winter due to reduced range? I'm dying to know more details. Even with something like a first generation Leaf the reduced range in the winter will still cover 95% of the average driver's daily needs. I'd like more details because this sounds like a load of horseshit if that's their only reason.
Tested: How Cold Weather Affects EV Range (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/tested-how-cold-weather-affects-ev-range-feature)
Range anxiety is real. Take it from someone who has been stranded with his wife in an electric vehicle not once but twice: You’ll want to watch the distance-to-empty gauge of an EV with a close eye. This is even more critical when the temperature drops below freezing, which is exactly why we ran a 2018 Chevrolet Bolt EV on our 75-mph highway fuel-economy loop in icy February to gauge how low temperatures affect electric range.
Battery chemistry, like Grandpa and almost everything else in the universe, slows down when it gets cold. The result? The battery pack has less energy to propel the car. If some of the battery’s energy is used to warm itself to a more efficient operating temperature, that, too, will reduce the battery’s state of charge and the car’s overall efficiency. All EVs suffer substantial range degradation in cold ambient conditions; we used the Bolt to give us and you an indication of how much.
How to Extend Your Electric Vehicle’s Range During the Winter (https://www.fleetcarma.com/extend-electric-vehicle-range-winter/)
Of course, drivers of gas-powered cars also deal with range loss and other issues in the cold, though they are not as magnified. But getting the most out of an EV in winter takes effort, especially when a car’s range is below 100 miles. Here are steps drivers can take to maximize an electric car’s battery life during winter.
Climate Control
Since EVs do not have the manufactured heat of a combustion engine, drivers must find creative ways to stay warm or otherwise sacrifice battery power. Actually, electric cars do not waste the type of energy gas-powered cars do (as heat), so greater efficiency is the source of the problem.
EV drivers have several methods for reducing battery consumption:
Heating before you unplug. Cold temperatures make a plug-in climate system work hard to warm a car, so there is no point wasting that energy after you stop charging. Before leaving on a trip during winter, heat the car before disconnecting from the power source.
Heated seats. Your car’s power system uses less energy to heat a seat than it would sending warm air into the cabin. Most EVs come with heated seats or offer the option (http://www.fleetcarma.com/heating-electric-vehicles/), so consumers living in cold areas should take advantage of them.
Layered clothing. The easiest way to conserve battery power is using little to no heat. Always dress in layers when heading out in winter so you can stay warm whether or not the climate control system helps. A scarf, hat and driving gloves complete winter attire in an EV.
Tested: How Cold Weather Affects EV Range (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/tested-how-cold-weather-affects-ev-range-feature)
How to Extend Your Electric Vehicle’s Range During the Winter (https://www.fleetcarma.com/extend-electric-vehicle-range-winter/)
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So pretty close to the losses I mentioned which doesn't render the EV absolutely useless. Your post uses wording that makes it seem like for the average user (10-15 miles per day) the EV couldn't meet the most basic of needs due to running the heater and defrost. This is absurd if it's what was being said. There's tens of thousands of these things driven year round and the observed range decrease is fractional even in the coldest of climates.
Again, ALL types of vehicles suffer issues in these conditions and if you look at the overall picture from a neutral prospective (very difficult seemingly for some) you will see that EVs tend to have less issues than ICE vehicles. We've just become accustomed to the issues ICE vehicles tend to experience in cold climates to the point where we don't even consider it abnormal any longer. That's not to say EVs are perfect and without their flaws (I not only mentioned the downsides but even assigned approximate numbers to give readers a basic idea) it's just that the flaws may be less of an issue to the average user than the flaws ICE vehicles are known to have.
Personally, I'd rather have a vehicle who's maximum range goes from 350 miles down to about 300 miles or 300 down to 250 on the coldest of days rather than simply not start due to numerous known causes. This idea that an EV with a 250 mile range becomes useless 5 months out of the year in Colorado is not only wildly inaccurate but is the sort of thing that people read and take as fact without any further investigation. Not only would I take the 40-50 mile decrease in range (if that's even the severity which I don't agree with based on first hand numbers I've seen posted) I'd do so gladly to get the added bonus of getting into a 70 degree car after only a few minutes of heating. We're all "used" to running an ICE car for 15 minutes in cold conditions (assuming the battery functioned in the colder temps well enough to crank it over or the diesel didn't freeze up or any # of potential problems) just to get it to an operating temperature to where it can START heating the cabin. With an EV you pull up an app on your phone, set the temp to 70 degrees and within minutes your entire car is at a comfortable temperature without any gas engine burning.
I don't mind having the EV v. ICE conversation as it's one the interests me but I think it's important that we try to not present myths and urban legend as fact because the more reading I've done on EVs over the years the more I see that most of the FUD concerning EVs is complete BS. So if someone isn't willing to invest the time to fact check and research I can see why they think EVs aren't quite ready for prime time. Is it right for a pick-up truck for everyone's use? Probably not. Could an EV pick-up based on today's technology fit me? It sure would if they built it. I have a feeling that, like most EVs, the current technology would meet the needs of at least 75% of consumers even though most think they're a joke based on something they heard from someone who knows a guy.
This doesn't even account for future tech as things are changing quite rapidly in the EV segment. Where we are now is quite a bit different than even 5 years ago. There's a good chance that in 5 years these random 1% type unique situations will even be able to be met by a EV.
So pretty close to the losses I mentioned which doesn't render the EV absolutely useless. Your post uses wording that makes it seem like for the average user (10-15 miles per day) the EV couldn't meet the most basic of needs due to running the heater and defrost. This is absurd if it's what was being said.
That isn't what I said. Based on my co-workers commute, he either has to be uncomfortable during his winter commute to use his EV, or he can take his ICE with no issue. Electric heaters consume a significant amount of power since they're basically a large resistor that heats up when you run electricity through it. If you've ever had a home that has electric heating, you'd understand just how much that power costs you in the winter.
There are tradeoffs that some in this thread seem to be ignoring or minimizing.
(https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/maximizing-electric-cars-range-extreme-temperatures)Maximizing Electric Cars' Range in Extreme Temperatures (https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/maximizing-electric-cars-range-extreme-temperatures)
ALL-ELECTRIC RANGE AND VERY HOT OR COLD WEATHER
Extreme weather - very hot or very cold - impacts range in EVs. The additional heating or cooling needed for passenger comfort requires more energy than more moderate temperatures would. Cold batteries also have greater resistance to charigng and do not hold a charge as well.
Based on nearly 10 million miles of data collected through the EV Project, researchers at Idaho National Laboratory (http://avt.inl.gov/) found that variations in weather can affect the range of plug-in electric vehicles by more than 25%. They found all-electric Nissan Leafs driven in Chicago in the winter had 26% lower ranges (60 miles compared to 81) than those driven in Seattle in the fall. Similarly, they found that plug-in hybrid electric Chevrolet Volts driven in Chicago in the winter had 29% lower ranges (30 miles compared to 42) than those driven in Chicago in the spring.
My ICE vehicles start putting out warm cabin air within a couple of minutes of being started, in addition to heated seats, so I'm not sure where you're coming up with "15". I've also never had a vehicle that wouldn't start in the winter, because the battery is checked with maintenance. I've been living here for 22 years, so I've had plenty of opportunities.
As much as you would like to think that tech will change rapidly, there are some battery concepts that have been done in extremely tiny conceptual testing examples, yet there's no idea if they will work on any scale. I've been following tech quite closely, since I'm in the tech business, and whatever you think is just around the corner, is not even on the RADAR.
Beyond lithium — the search for a better battery (https://www.ft.com/content/46adb98c-d8ef-11e7-9504-59efdb70e12f)
However, research in these technologies largely remains in the labs with little sign of a full commercialisation on the horizon.
Shut Up About the Batteries: The Key to a Better Electric Car Is a Lighter Motor (https://spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/advanced-cars/shut-up-about-the-batteries-the-key-to-a-better-electric-car-is-a-lighter-motor)
Last year we proved our prototype motor in extensive tests on the laboratory bench, and though it will be a while before we can put the machine in a car, we have every reason to expect that it will perform just as well in that setting.
It's not "FUD" when it's based on data. Ignoring the realities of the situation based on what you would like the situation to be doesn't help anyone. If you never leave the metro area in which you live, and your daily job doesn't require you to travel to each client's location, then your requirements are pretty low and can be met a number of ways.
68Charger
08-11-2018, 09:46
So Jer, what EV do you drive?
You also brought up the differential in price per mile... in cold weather that gap is going to close somewhat, and it's also dependent on what you pay for electricity... I have the misfortune of living in an electricity co-op which is exempted from the power to choose your energy provider. My rate is $20 per meter, plus 10.48 cents/kWh... well above the standard they use to calculate the mpg equivalent of 7 cents/kWh, and I also do not fit in the model you describe of someone who drives 10-15 minutes to commute. All of these contibute to make the ROI not work out for me. If I could choose my power provider, there are some that have free electricity 9pm-6am... ideal for recharging an EV.
I work from home, but when I do drive it's either the 10-15min short trip for errands, or at least 30 minutes if it's big items... Costco is 45min away, work is 75min without traffic (if I leave before 6am). but I maybe go once a month.
Every time I run the numbers based on my reality (electricity rate, how much I drive, etc) It would take > 15 years for an EV to pay off (and that is with new vs new, not the reality where I would buy used and drive the car into the ground doing my own repairs), and by then the mileage is well above average life expectancy of the battery pack... I have a '07 Charger Hemi with 226k miles, never had the valve covers off.. I've had several other passenger cars beyond 200k miles. Only case where I was able to get it to 12.5 years ROI was if I was laid off and had to commute to Dallas 5 days a week- that's with an expected 36,000+ miles per year... how many battery packs, and at what cost would I need for 450,000 miles? (rhetorical, since it's beyond the average life expectancy for any vehicle... I won't believe for a second that EVs are immune to all wear and tear)
Zundfolge
08-11-2018, 21:32
I'll be honest, if it was 100% up to me I'd own nothing but pre OBDII cars. So all the extra gadgetry and nonsense (giant touch screen, "smart" phone integration, etc) in Teslas is actually a bigger turnoff for me than the lack of an ICE.
So if someone were to bring out an ultra simplified (and if possible, somehow EMP proof) EV I'd be much more interested. At this point the Bollinger is the only EV I'm even remotely excited about.
The Tesla 3 excites me about as much as a Camry.
I've come to see EVs as being the car equivalent to Linux ... the truth is even though Linux is the superior operating system at a theoretical level, for the vast majority of users Windows or MacOS still works better (although keep in mind, all you Android and Mac users are basically already using Linux) :p. I like my Linux but I don't encourage people to switch anymore because I always end up putting in hours of free IT time helping them keep their machines afloat.
But EVs (like Linux) are for now at least the domain of hobbyists (and generally well heeled ones at that), when I can spend $2500 on a used EV that will give me as much functionality and practical use as a $2500 ICE vehicle, THEN we can talk.
Until then, you EV hobbyists keep doin' what you're doing and eventually the tech will trickle down to us proles.
And if I actually gave two shits about "saving da earf" I'd go biodiesel (which is better for TEOTWAWKI too ... which is almost as likely in the next couple decades as some super new battery tech that makes EVs the shit)
The range limits and charge times are REAL and very much a showstopper when you're doing 800+ miles per day.
Dude, if you're driving 800 miles+ per day, every day, you are probably in the .005% of all drivers.
I don't know where you get the idea that very few people attempt endurance driving as I've known tons of people who've done cross-country road trips. IIRC, Tesla's Supercharger gets the battery to 80% in 45 minutes. If you are doing over 600 miles, that charge added over an hour to your road trip, nearly 2 hours added each way for something like my recent drive to/from Tucson. I don't see a lot on Cannonball Runs per se these days but plenty of people do endurance drives whether it's driving between NY and FL or the East and West coasts, they just add in sensible overnight stops that you'd forgo in an actual Cannonball.
I've done plenty of long distance trips. Notably from the Midwest to the East coast, Colorado to St. Louis, Colorado to Dallas/Ft. Worth, and Colorado to Vegas. But looking back on it, those drives likely account for less than 1% of all of the mileage I've driven. The bottom line is that most people simply don't take trips like that very often, maybe every couple of years. And yeah, no one is denying that driving an EV long distance is going to add time to the trip, but the fact is that people claim such trips can't be done at all and that simply isn't the truth. Yes, it adds time to a trip, no, I'm not happy about it, nor is anyone else, but the fact is that EVs (specifically Teslas) can and are taking long-distance road trips, contradicting those who claim it can't be done. Sure, you take a time hit, now, with current battery technology, but that's with what amounts to first generation technology, which is a pretty awesome feat.
As far as I've seen, the MSM is in love with Tesla and Elon Musk. I don't know where you've seen all this negative coverage of Tesla except maybe in the autoblogs and car magazines where the authors and readers are interested in cars that actually finish the Nurburgring or Le Mans.
The auto blogs don't like him. A lot of financial-based outlets (CNBC, Fox Business, Zerohedge, and Seeking Alpha) don't like him. All of the outlets under the Gizmodo banner constantly are excoriating Musk and Tesla on what amounts to at least a weekly basis,
and mainstream outlets like the NYT and WAPO have been throwing bombs at him ever since he dared to criticize the MSM via a tweet two or three months ago.
There is a place for everything, including EVs, but a lot of the buzz about Tesla is just that, buzz and hype. If a Tesla or Chevy's Bolt fit your driving pattern, great. If they don't, traditional car manufacturers are still making incredible improvements.
You're stating the obvious. Nowhere in any post I've made on the internet have I advocated that people buy vehicles that don't meet their needs. If you drive 800 miles a day, then, yeah, a 1st gen EV shouldn't be your first choice.
I had the same point. Probably 90% of people living in the city could have an EV as their main transportation and rent a vehicle for road trips the same way they can rent a truck the twice a year they actually use one.
Aloha_Shooter
08-13-2018, 00:00
Dude, if you're driving 800 miles+ per day, every day, you are probably in the .005% of all drivers.
Nowhere did I say it was everyday but plenty of people do roadtrips once or twice or more a year that are in that league. OTOH, you make it sound like the time it takes (45 mins for 80%) for a Tesla Supercharge is inconsequential. My point was simply that it's NOT on a long road trip. Porsche's version of Supercharge is looking to charge the battery to 80% in 15 minutes -- at that point, it will be much more like pulling into a service station with a slight line up and be more realistic for long trips.
The bottom line is that most people simply don't take trips like that very often, maybe every couple of years.
Most people don't but a significant number of people do. I was simply pointing out the errors in the fanboi boosterism.
And yeah, no one is denying that driving an EV long distance is going to add time to the trip, but the fact is that people claim such trips can't be done at all and that simply isn't the truth. Yes, it adds time to a trip, no, I'm not happy about it, nor is anyone else, but the fact is that EVs (specifically Teslas) can and are taking long-distance road trips, contradicting those who claim it can't be done. Sure, you take a time hit, now, with current battery technology, but that's with what amounts to first generation technology, which is a pretty awesome feat.
I don't recall anyone saying it COULDN'T be done since Tesla actually laid out enough Supercharger stations to make it possible. All the criticism I've seen for the past 2-3 years is that most people don't want to add 45 minutes every 300 miles.
The auto blogs don't like him. A lot of financial-based outlets (CNBC, Fox Business, Zerohedge, and Seeking Alpha) don't like him. All of the outlets under the Gizmodo banner constantly are excoriating Musk and Tesla on what amounts to at least a weekly basis,
and mainstream outlets like the NYT and WAPO have been throwing bombs at him ever since he dared to criticize the MSM via a tweet two or three months ago.
MSM outlets have been throwing bombs because of his criticism of them. Their (NYT, WaPo, ABC, CNN, NBC, NPR, Scientific American, et al) articles and coverage have been nothing but praise and boosterism because it fits in with their "Green" agenda. I've seen investment articles that were critical of the enthusiasm for Tesla stock but that was because the company still has net to make actual profit, it gets positive cash flow from tax subsidies and decapitalization write-offs -- NOT being generally negative about the company or the man. Most of the financial articles I've read have been the other way -- asking how high it can go while ignoring the lack of profit problem. Ars Technica has pointed out problems with their auto-navigation but has been generally positive.
You're stating the obvious. Nowhere in any post I've made on the internet have I advocated that people buy vehicles that don't meet their needs. If you drive 800 miles a day, then, yeah, a 1st gen EV shouldn't be your first choice.
No, but you've been claiming EVs meet a wider population need than they do. OTOH, I've noted that it fits perfectly in places like Hawaii where there is no such thing as a long road trip or for urban commuters but it utterly fails for anyone who does long road trips but doesn't want to add hours to their driving time.
As far as Irving's point, I know people in big cities who don't even bother owning a car -- it's too much hassle finding parking and too much expense per month when they have a subway or metro line that meets most of their daily needs. The same criteria apply -- and the boosterism in this thread is still overdone enthusiam.
Jeffrey Lebowski
08-13-2018, 05:54
At this point, Bollinger is closer to production, but even they will be a boutique manufacturer that probably only builds a couple thousand vehicles a year. (BTW, for the guy with the Bollinger reservation, if you get one, can I have a ride? :-) )
Yes.
WHEN Tesla shits the bed, the vehicles will no longer have OTA updates, etc.
I’m no Tesla shill and probably wouldn’t ever buy one, but you’d have to assume a 3rd party “App Store” would open...
I'd love an autonomous vehicle to drive for me so I could work between stops. My trip on Wednesday is a perfect example. 7 hours is an enormous amount of time to not be working. That's an entirely different conversation though.
Is it? I keep reading about how we are “at least a decade” here from capacity being what it needs, but it wasn’t that long ago the same was said about Mercedes F015. And here we are, failing, but doing autonomous. I’d love this more than an EV myself, if nothing else than to just read for 30 minutes on the way to work. Imagine a road trip where you set your car (7hrs in your case) and hop in and nap. Overnight travel, wake me when we are there. Anyway, I think the demand is going to force technology leaps. I have two friends with Teslas (one 3, one S) and multi-state trips are much, much less dramatic than I assumed. The charge speed is basically “go in, pee, get soda” -time. In other words, what you should be doing anyway to avoid a DVT. :)
But we’ll see where Bollinger actually is when my number is up.
45ACP would kill an EV with a single shot at 100 yards, guar-an-teed. 9mm would just bounce off the batteries.
Come'on man! A 9mm will at least crack the plastic on the battery case and cause an acid leak requiring the EPA to confiscate the car owners property. :)
Zundfolge
08-13-2018, 08:41
45ACP would kill an EV with a single shot at 100 yards, guar-an-teed. 9mm would just bounce off the batteries.
Foxtrot wins the thread!
Martinjmpr
08-13-2018, 08:57
WRT range, the problem with the range of EV's is not the range itself, it's the amount of TIME to recharge. That's the killer.
I have a motorcycle that has an effective fuel tank range of 150 miles, less than most EVs.
But I have ZERO "range anxiety" because (a) I plan my rides so I know when I'll be able to refuel and (b) refueling takes at most 10 minutes. There's no EV out there that can recharge in 10 minutes.
But I have ZERO "range anxiety" because (a) I plan my rides so I know when I'll be able to refuel and (b) refueling takes at most 10 minutes. There's no EV out there that can recharge in 10 minutes.
I'm wondering how I can fill my 26 gallon tank in less than 5 minutes (pay at the pump). I must be using a network of Superfiller stations I didn't know about.
Does this make any EV fans nervous? : Musk says Saudi fund wants to take Tesla private, justifying his 'funding secure' tweet; stock slips 1% (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/musk-offers-details-on-claims-of-funding-secured-tweet-in-taking-tes.html)
Elon Musk is clearing up questions around taking Tesla private, saying his claim last week that the necessary funding had been secured was based on repeated and ongoing conversations with the Saudis.
"Going back almost two years, the Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund has approached me multiple times about taking Tesla private," Musk said in a blog post published Monday. "Recently, after the Saudi fund bought almost 5 percent of Tesla stock through the public markets, they reached out to ask for another meeting. That meeting took place on July 31st. ... I left the July 31st meeting with no question that a deal with the Saudi sovereign fund could be closed."
Tesla has been battling wild stock swings and widespread scrutiny in the week following Musk's tweet last Tuesday. The SEC reportedly intensified previous inquiries into Tesla based on the tweet, which may have violated a rule that prohibits publicly traded companies from announcing plans to buy or sell securities if executives don't intend to follow through, don't have the means to complete the deal or are flat out trying to manipulate the stock price.
The House of Saud's wealth is based on oil production.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Zundfolge
08-13-2018, 14:25
Does this make any EV fans nervous? : Musk says Saudi fund wants to take Tesla private, justifying his 'funding secure' tweet; stock slips 1% (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/musk-offers-details-on-claims-of-funding-secured-tweet-in-taking-tes.html)
Yeah, the fact that Elon is considering taking Saudi money has me concerned for a lot of reasons (although I'd hope he'd be smart enough to write the contract such that they have no input into the running of Tesla).
The House of Saud's wealth is based on oil production.
Most of the oil-producing ME countries have been rapidly diversifying their investments for a decade or more. Reasons have been as varied as Peak Oil being imminent to an inability of the traditional economies to keep up with population growth (especially in the "young man with nothing to do demographic).
Well I'm going to just admit that I am a 52 y/o "chump" and will be for the rest of my life. I simply don't see me ever owning an EV even if I live another 30 years. Fact is, unless my 17 y/o diesel gets totaled, it will most likely out last me.
Well I'm going to just admit that I am a 52 y/o "chump" and will be for the rest of my life. I simply don't see me ever owning an EV even if I live another 30 years. Fact is, unless my 17 y/o diesel gets totaled, it will most likely out last me.
That's where I'm at +5 years on the chump part and -3 on the truck with 65K on the clock. ;-)
68Charger
08-14-2018, 22:07
Well I'm going to just admit that I am a 52 y/o "chump" and will be for the rest of my life. I simply don't see me ever owning an EV even if I live another 30 years. Fact is, unless my 17 y/o diesel gets totaled, it will most likely out last me.
That's where I'm at +5 years on the chump part and -3 on the truck with 65K on the clock. ;-)
-4 on the chump part, about +4 on the truck (early '98 12v), and 305k on the odo... and I still think it could outlast me if I take good care of 'er
You guys definitely sound like chumps for missing the obvious facetious tone of the original post.
[Peep]
Hellz Yeah!
https://www.hybridcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/gm-ev1.jpg
68Charger
08-15-2018, 05:16
You guys definitely sound like chumps for missing the obvious facetious tone of the original post.
[Peep]
Sez OPie.... you're ASSuming we're not being facetious at the same time.
IF only Antifa knew about this thread... the triggering it would trigger
That's what the wall was for.
68Charger
08-15-2018, 07:42
*gasps* I identify your repeat usage of the word "trigger" to be a insidious threat of utilization of firearms against either Irving, ANTIFA, or both! DATS ILLEGAL
On an entirely unrelated side note, I have ammunition available for donations to all worthy charitable causes.
can we donate some to Strozak's gofundme page? I hear it's all in the delivery... just like humor (or was that about timing?)
and now the SEC is going to be doing a little investigating into Elon Musk's tweets about "funding secured". Not sure where this is going but from what I've seen it's never good to have SEC doing or having any reason to investigate a company. Rarely is there never any "wrong doing" found. Will be interesting times for Tesla and all things tied to Musk.
and now the SEC is going to be doing a little investigating into Elon Musk's tweets about "funding secured". Not sure where this is going but from what I've seen it's never good to have SEC doing or having any reason to investigate a company. Rarely is there never any "wrong doing" found. Will be interesting times for Tesla and all things tied to Musk.
It will certainly slow up the timeline *if* there's a plan to take it private. Possibly by a year or two.
Nothing mind blowing, just an article about sitting excess power without using water.
https://qz.com/1355672/stacking-concrete-blocks-is-a-surprisingly-efficient-way-to-store-energy/
If the government and the public weren't so dumb about nuclear power, we'd never have any of these discussions.
Seems like it'd be easy enough to use this technology in trailers to have an electric power assist on the axle of the trailer. If you're only using it up steep grades, the charge should last longer and allow for a smaller battery pack. I'm sure there are much more cool ways to integrate that system into a bigger trailer like a fifth wheel as well.
Better gas mileage for the tow vehicle, integrated electrical for the living spaces, solar panels on top, lots of possibilities.
So... this popped up during my surfing today:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2018/08/27/dethleffs-camping-trailer-ev-tech-reduce-towing-strain/
Ha! Great timing. I was just going to bump this thread today to ask a question. Let's say that money and complexity is no object. If an electric trailer has independent motors on the axles, couldn't it have some sort of stability control built in to help combat sway in high winds, or even more usefully, helping to stabilize a trailer while backing? I'm imagining backing up a long driveway trying to keep the trailer straight. Braking one wheel to help control how quickly it is turning would be helpful. Heck, if it were powerful enough, you could just pop the tow vehicle into neutral and let the trailer back-itself to where it needed to be.
Just read the article. I'm a genius. I knew it.
Just read the article. I'm a genius. I knew it.
Congratulations on the concept. Based on the article, that's all it is. You theoretically charge it when the sun is out at the campsite, and then when the juice runs out....you get nada. No va.
There are a ton of details to work out, such as trailer angle in relationship to the tow vehicle, when to apply thrust and when not to based on road conditions (aka 'jack-knife enhancer'), etc.
I expect them to start testing on the streets/pedestrians of Arizona in 5 years or more. [Coffee]
It must be awesome to know me.
It must be awesome to know me.
You can't imagine. [not-worthy]
I didn't realize there was a government mandated now that EVs must put out under 19 mph. Wonder what rush hour will sound like.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/28/17774430/ford-electric-hybrid-noise-rule-law-enforcement
Zundfolge
08-29-2018, 10:07
I didn't realize there was a government mandated now that EVs must put out under 19 mph. Wonder what rush hour will sound like.
I wonder what kind of noises will be mandated or if it will be up to the car companies ... and if they'll be customization (like cell phone ring tones). I think the Jaws theme would be kinda awesome (especially if the intensity is matched to your speed).
Or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9eubFCvPsM
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9eubFCvPsM)
Of course in the ghetto they've had these low-speed sound things for years.
Exactly my question. Customizable would be cool, kind of. People would have annoying stuff for sure. I wonder about how loud it will be. Loud enough to hear down the street? Loud enough to hear from inside the cabin? I'm imagining the commercial vehicle back-up tone, but times two thousand as you sit in bumper to bumper traffic on I-25.
Zundfolge
08-29-2018, 10:25
Someone already implemented my idea :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W5vUgrSXUE
Apparently the Chevy Volt already does this with sort of a white-noise sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI0em9NjJ9c
When I was in a marked unit this is the sound I would have chosen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoXyGKQX6pU&
I remember years ago when it was discovered that VW played engine sounds through the cars stereo so the occupants had a better auditory experience inside the car. Better being that the motor sounded more powerful and louder or something. Something we're already used to like engine, exhaust, or tire noise could be implemented almost without notice. That begs the question of why cling so hard to the old that it costs millions of dollars, rather than people learning to adapt for free?
It must be awesome to know me.
No.
Evidently Bosch is working on a large trailer that uses regenerative braking to power the wheels, as well as onboard power for things like refrigeration.
https://electrek.co/2018/08/28/bosch-electric-semitrailers-regen-braking/
Seems like a good match for the upcoming Tesla semi.
ChickNorris
08-29-2018, 11:11
Was it awesome Justin?
No.
My dog and my mother think otherwise.
Grant H.
08-29-2018, 13:13
I remember years ago when it was discovered that VW played engine sounds through the cars stereo so the occupants had a better auditory experience inside the car. Better being that the motor sounded more powerful and louder or something. Something we're already used to like engine, exhaust, or tire noise could be implemented almost without notice. That begs the question of why cling so hard to the old that it costs millions of dollars, rather than people learning to adapt for free?
Basically all the big auto manufacturers are doing it. The mustang is the one that cracks me up the most though.
68Charger
08-29-2018, 14:48
Well, there goes the argument made by some that EVs are silent, and that's way better than an annoying, outdated ICE sound.
https://youtu.be/--xITOqlBCM
"That just saved my ass."
Dude, the car just slowed to a stop in front of you. You obviously weren't paying attention.
Loved the guy that crossed over into the oncoming lane to still hit the pig.
Show us some immobile objects that the Tesla autopilot accelerates into. ;)
Just happened to come across my YouTube feed, didn't go looking for it.
There's another video out there of a Tesla tagging a deer. I have to give the Tesla credit for accelerating that quickly from a stop to make sure the deer didn't limp away from it.
68Charger
09-04-2018, 21:42
"That just saved my ass."
Dude, the car just slowed to a stop in front of you. You obviously weren't paying attention.
Loved the guy that crossed over into the oncoming lane to still hit the pig.
Show us some immobile objects that the Tesla autopilot accelerates into. ;)
Leftwits say they are about "the greater good"... but inventions like this make people SOFT.
The more Americans rely on this kind of tech, the easier it will be to conquer us in the future...
by say, people who live like dogs in a desert and want us dead.
I'm sure there are people on this site that will disagree, think that the tech "makes us better"
And that's true... temporarily.
Take that tech away after we're dependent on it, and as a people we're WEAK.
Most people will start to depend on it... and stop paying any attention.
Why Bother, the car will stop for me.
We're doomed... it's only a matter of time.
You get too dependent on the technology to do the job for you and you can have this when the technology isn't there;
http://youtu.be/_6ndR0h3h5c
You get too dependent on the technology to do the job for you and you can have this when the technology isn't there;
http://youtu.be/_6ndR0h3h5c
I remember OZ214 crash, and one of the Chinese visitor got ran over by fire truck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3OqyuTShks
I remember OZ214 crash, and one of the Chinese visitor got ran over by fire truck.
I bet it was a diesel.
I bet it was a diesel.
Kid died 5 yrs ago, too soon? [Cry]
:D
It's believed she was already dead, thrown from the aircraft.
Leftwits say they are about "the greater good"... but inventions like this make people SOFT.
The more Americans rely on this kind of tech, the easier it will be to conquer us in the future...
by say, people who live like dogs in a desert and want us dead.
I'm sure there are people on this site that will disagree, think that the tech "makes us better"
And that's true... temporarily.
Take that tech away after we're dependent on it, and as a people we're WEAK.
Most people will start to depend on it... and stop paying any attention.
Why Bother, the car will stop for me.
We're doomed... it's only a matter of time.
I'm not implying anything here, but isn't this just pretty much the Unibomber's manifesto?
68Charger
09-05-2018, 07:11
I'm not implying anything here, but isn't this just pretty much the Unibomber's manifesto?
I suppose so, just that his "line in the sand" was much further back, and his methods were quite extreme.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the plane crash that Gman posted, on a smaller scale... probably an "auto-pilot challenge" in social media at some point where young people with little purpose in life start driving their car at high rates of speed at objects to make the collision avoidance system kick in, and post the videos on Utube
That's a bet I would take.
Meaning I think that will happen.
"That just saved my ass."
Dude, the car just slowed to a stop in front of you. You obviously weren't paying attention.
Loved the guy that crossed over into the oncoming lane to still hit the pig.
Show us some immobile objects that the Tesla autopilot accelerates into. ;)
How can someone watch a video like that and not find a SINGLE sliver of an indication of things to come in terms of safer automobile operation? You REALLY have to be anti-[insert brand here] to not be amazed by the advancements being made in automobile safety through technology.
You point out the obvious about "had the guy just been paying attention" no shit man... that's the point though! Not everyone pays 100% attention 24/7/365 while driving. Obviously you're one in a billion who does so I can see why you would find zero value in this system. For myself and most other drivers it's nice to have another layer of safety to have your back just in case. Not everyone who has an accident spends their entire time driving texting or reading the newspaper, some are very attentive drivers who are distracted for a split second and unlucky at the same time. If you can couple a system like this with someone who is normally very attentive and isn't going to rely on the system you have a recipe for an incredibly safe commute. The fact that people are choosing to see it as a reason to be lazy rather than another layer of safety says more about them than it does Tesla. Why some are choosing to blame Tesla for this when they put so many warnings and explanations to the contrary in front if owners is beyond me.
The point isn't to do it for you it's to aid you in doing it. People abuse this system but that's not how it's intended or sold. It's not sold as a full autonomous driving system and they even put safety measures in to require you to pilot the vehicle. It has sensors to make sure your hands remain on the steering wheel and reminders to tell you to pay attention. That's substantially more safety than a 1980's Ford or Honda and yet people want to try to make them seem less safe by focusing on the one or two accidents that still happened while this feature was engaged rather than the literal millions avoided as demonstrated in this short video. Sure there will be random outliers here and there and that unavoidable. Remember when the media made it seem like seat belts were going to kill us all in a fiery blaze that was sure to happen if we all buckled up and got in a car accident? What about when airbags or ABS were first introduced... they were sure to kill us all. lol
Falling for the media's need to feed on headlines though and making it seem like the system is somehow less safe is just as bad as those who know nothing about guns falling for the media narrative that make them all seem like the tool of Satan. Of course the headline reads "Another Mass Shooting at School" instead of "Another Few Thousand Lives Saved by Guns Today" because the former gets 1,000,000 more clicks than the latter. The same can be said for "Tesla on Autopilot Crashes Into Parked Fire Truck, Kills Driver" instead of "Thousands of Lives Saved Today by Tesla Cars with Autopilot" because we know which one gets more clicks. Given how early this technology is I think it shows great promise for things to come but I personally wouldn't engage it and crawl in the back seat to take a nap. That's just me. I also tend to treat every gun as if it's loaded and cringe at others complete lack of respect for firearms safety but that doesn't make the firearm itself unsafe.
Besides, lots of Tesla cars are sold that don't even include this feature so it's not like it's a requirement to own one. You don't like the idea? Cool. Don't use it or better yet don't even pay for it to be installed. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
68Charger
09-05-2018, 16:28
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where the auto-pilot comments were trashing Tesla.
You DO know they're not the only ones with this technology, right?
And I was focused on how technology like this will affect human behavior.
Take the bad stories with the good, it's called the truth.
I think you're being overly sensitive about constructive criticism.... lighten up, Francis.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where the auto-pilot comments were trashing Tesla.
You DO know they're not the only ones with this technology, right?
And I was focused on how technology like this will affect human behavior.
Take the bad stories with the good, it's called the truth.
I think you're being overly sensitive about constructive criticism.... lighten up, Francis.
You're ongoing criticism of all things Tesla regardless of it's basis in reality has been anything but constructive.
The irony of the same guy saying auto-pilot makes us more susceptible to enemy invasion telling me to lighten up is not lost on me.
68Charger
09-05-2018, 17:08
You're ongoing criticism of all things Tesla regardless of it's basis in reality has been anything but constructive.
The irony of the same guy saying auto-pilot makes us more susceptible to enemy invasion telling me to lighten up is not lost on me.
*Your
Maybe it's just the tone of your posts, the way you go to the extreme... or that you seem to relate things I'm saying about something else back as an attack on Tesla, or maybe it's just that celebrity worship is a pet peeve of mine, but I'm certainly not here to join you in worship of all things Tesla.
If they're so awesome then one keyboard commando isn't going to take them down off their pedestal, is it?
I can respect your opinion just as soon as you allow me mine... oh, and I'm not alone:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlkaufman/2018/06/30/elon-musk-and-the-dangers-of-hero-worship/#55b3b3f7ffa4
https://www.thestreet.com/story/13867751/1/tesla-tlsa-members-worship-musk-as-apple-supporters-worshipped-jobs-gm-icon-lutz-says.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sell-the-musk-hero-worship-says-investor-who-bet-against-tesla-before-it-tripled-2018-05-23
mob censorship:
https://jalopnik.com/wall-street-journals-dan-neil-deletes-twitter-after-tes-1827785899
*Your
Maybe it's just the tone of your posts, the way you go to the extreme... or that you seem to relate things I'm saying about something else back as an attack on Tesla, or maybe it's just that celebrity worship is a pet peeve of mine, but I'm certainly not here to join you in worship of all things Tesla.
If they're so awesome then one keyboard commando isn't going to take them down off their pedestal, is it?
I can respect your opinion just as soon as you allow me mine... oh, and I'm not alone:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlkaufman/2018/06/30/elon-musk-and-the-dangers-of-hero-worship/#55b3b3f7ffa4
https://www.thestreet.com/story/13867751/1/tesla-tlsa-members-worship-musk-as-apple-supporters-worshipped-jobs-gm-icon-lutz-says.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sell-the-musk-hero-worship-says-investor-who-bet-against-tesla-before-it-tripled-2018-05-23
mob censorship:
https://jalopnik.com/wall-street-journals-dan-neil-deletes-twitter-after-tes-1827785899
The irony continues...
Pointing out grammatical errors as if your posts are that of an English professor.
You then go on to describe me as having "celebrity worship" and taking the "extreme stance" for pointing out misinformation....
Yeah, I think we're done here.
Yeah, I think we're done here.
That's a relief.
The systems where it beeped to let them know that someone was intruding on their lane, yeah, my car has that. Does the same thing if I'm closing on someone fast and am not applying the brakes. I just don't get that excited by that video.
The videos where autopilot is engaged and the Tesla is skipping off a jersey barrier when the lane is diverted, skipping off a steel barrier along the road, side-swiping vehicles pulled over to the side of a lane...now those are funny. Static object identification and avoidance seems to me to be a pretty basic requirement before making the technology available to the public...unless you like to pay a lot of money and risk your life (and others) as a beta tester.
68Charger
09-05-2018, 19:29
The irony continues...
Pointing out grammatical errors as if your posts are that of an English professor.
You then go on to describe me as having "celebrity worship" and taking the "extreme stance" for pointing out misinformation....
Yeah, I think we're done here.
You can only decide when <you're> done. That being said, I mean no disrespect but it seems painfully apparent to me that you do.
I don't know what you hope to accomplish with your tirades of Tesla worship, but I was never under any delusion I would convince you I'm correct... I entered into this thread from the very beginning with the belief that someone would personally attack me for pointing out that their belief system at least partially based on a person and/or corporation.
Part of what I was doing was going farther to the extreme just because you were. (yep, I'm a troll.. Justin- Props for calling me out)
If you're to learn anything from your elders, it's that your tactics did nothing to convince me, but further steeled my resolve.
I'm going to leave a message for my broker to ensure that no Tesla assets are in my portfolio by the end of market tomorrow. [hahhah-no]
This is in no way a mandate that you have to learn from me- find your own way.... I'm just telling you that you'll never convince someone of my clearly advanced age using the tactics you did in this thread.
I at least hoped to reveal your Tesla cognitive dissonance for what it is to others... and at best I hoped you would recognize that you've got an unhealthy fixation with the subject... but alas, I believe you are convinced beyond my ability to convince you otherwise. Oh well, that's your problem.
And I'm not going to lose a second of sleep over accusations of improper English from someone who commits the most common of errors... really, how hard is it? spend an hour studying English on this particular subject (you vs your vs you're) and you can master it... sincerely, I believe your'e smart enough- but you likely just haven't paid enough attention. But I am also never offended by someone pointing out grammatical errors in my posts, perhaps my overuse of ellipsis? After all, <dammit, Jim> I'm an Engineer, not an English professor. (paraphrasing) Forums tend to have a little informal English anyway... but there are memes based on your vs you're.
But anyway, I've enjoyed sparring in print on the subject- even if you did not.
P.S. (My sentence about dumping TSLA should in no way be taken as financial advice... I am not a financial adviser, even if I build networks for them)
68Charger
09-05-2018, 19:37
That's a relief.
The systems where it beeped to let them know that someone was intruding on their lane, yeah, my car has that. Does the same thing if I'm closing on someone fast and am not applying the brakes. I just don't get that excited by that video.
The videos where autopilot is engaged and the Tesla is skipping off a jersey barrier when the lane is diverted, skipping off a steel barrier along the road, side-swiping vehicles pulled over to the side of a lane...now those are funny. Static object identification and avoidance seems to me to be a pretty basic requirement before making the technology available to the public...unless you like to pay a lot of money and risk your life (and others) as a beta tester.
Sorry if my response above re-sparks something... I didn't see your response until after I posted it...
When a company stops looking at the errors the system makes, they will cease to make any improvements.
With any system, The more rules you put in, the longer the system will take to make a decision (within the bounds of the same hardware).
I can write some code real fast that will NEVER lead to a collision- but alas, you'll never get anywhere in that vehicle.
So there will be a constant battle between code to recognize threats, the time to react to them, and the public perception that it's "too sensitive" and slowing their commute.
hurley842002
09-05-2018, 19:49
IBTL
68Charger
09-05-2018, 20:57
Auto-lock?
Full-semi-auto lock?
I'd shake his hand if I met him in person, I'm serious about no hard feelings.
I am forced to work with people I disagree with.... and while I disrespected the hell out of Tesla, I only tried to call out truth with members of this forum... I'm open to criticism of where I did otherwise. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Prototype-beta-auto-lock.
Batteries not included.
68Charger
09-05-2018, 21:10
Prototype-beta-auto-lock.
Batteries not included.
#like
IBTL
In Before Tesla Lockout.
Duh.
In Before Tesla Lockout.
Duh.
Touché
I bet Tesla loses
I B T L
*Your
Maybe it's just the tone of your posts, the way you go to the extreme... or that you seem to relate things I'm saying about something else back as an attack on Tesla, or maybe it's just that celebrity worship is a pet peeve of mine, but I'm certainly not here to join you in worship of all things Tesla.
If they're so awesome then one keyboard commando isn't going to take them down off their pedestal, is it?
I can respect your opinion just as soon as you allow me mine... oh, and I'm not alone:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlkaufman/2018/06/30/elon-musk-and-the-dangers-of-hero-worship/#55b3b3f7ffa4
https://www.thestreet.com/story/13867751/1/tesla-tlsa-members-worship-musk-as-apple-supporters-worshipped-jobs-gm-icon-lutz-says.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sell-the-musk-hero-worship-says-investor-who-bet-against-tesla-before-it-tripled-2018-05-23
mob censorship:
https://jalopnik.com/wall-street-journals-dan-neil-deletes-twitter-after-tes-1827785899
No, you are not alone.
I don't think anyone in this thread has engaged in celebrity worship, so I fail to see how the claim even applies.
Jeffrey Lebowski
09-07-2018, 05:30
IBTL
I was hoping to needle a little with some tongue-in-cheek, but this thread turned out better than I could have hoped. [Coffee]
In truth, I learned a lot, and I think there is some really cool stuff coming. Some scary stuff too. [Beer]
...In truth, I learned a lot, and I think there is some really cool stuff coming. Some scary stuff too. [Beer]
That just about sums up the future of everything.
Tesla's Chief Accounting Officer is leaving the company after 1 month on the job. You don't see that very often.
Their head of HR is on leave for circumstances which are also a bit odd.
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Zundfolge
09-07-2018, 07:55
Elon Musk did Joe Rogan's show yesterday. Should be entertaining (apparently people are upset at Elon because he drinks whiskey and smokes pot in the interview).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycPr5-27vSI
I knew he smoked something. It gave me a mild drug vibe version of Jack Dorsey.
BladesNBarrels
09-07-2018, 08:59
Ding dang. When I saw the length of the video was over 2.5 hours, I immediately shut it down.
[panic]
Joe Rogan's interviews are almost always long form and worth listening to if the person is interesting.
Zundfolge
09-07-2018, 10:08
Ding dang. When I saw the length of the video was over 2.5 hours, I immediately shut it down.
[panic]
That's actually kinda average for Rogan ... he's done 4-5 hour interviews in the past.
Its funny, we've long worried that YouTube was going to lead people to shorter attention spans because of 2 minute cat videos ... but then I find myself watching multi hour lectures and interviews all the time :p
BladesNBarrels
09-07-2018, 10:39
Took a social media class last week and the average attention span of people is 7 seconds now.
I think that is why the DIY and "Reality" shows seem so jerky to me.
The whole scene flashes and changes every 3-4 seconds.
I get headaches with strobes and the constant changing scenes gives me eye strain.
Gettin' too old for this stuff
[blaster]
Zundfolge
09-07-2018, 10:53
So I watched the interview ... Elon took one cigar like puff off of Rogan's blunt (didn't even look like he inhaled) ... then Rogan's performance in the interview started to decline and Elon got bored with him.
Otherwise it was an interesting interview.
The Air Force is now investigating Musk and his drug use. They have multiple contracted sensitive projects with SpaceX, government clearances are involved, and drug use is forbidden. It's also a violation of company policy.
Elon Musk is Wile E. Coyote.
Do you still think it's a coincidence that he tweeted about going private at $420? It was reported he was smoking weed with a female model when he made that tweet.
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
The Air Force is now investigating Musk and his drug use. They have multiple contracted sensitive projects with SpaceX, government clearances are involved, and drug use is forbidden. It's also a violation of company policy.
Elon Musk is Wile E. Coyote.
Do you still think it's a coincidence that he tweeted about going private at $420? It was reported he was smoking weed with a female model when he made that tweet.
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Explains more than a couple of things...
https://images.afternoonvoice.com/2018/01/Amber-Heard-and-Elon-Musk-AV.jpg
But this isn't an Amber Heard thread.
https://short-biography.com/wp-content/uploads/amber-heard/amberheard.jpg
BushMasterBoy
09-07-2018, 18:56
Depends if he tests positive for mj use. I really doubt he will test positive. Not good for a PR standpoint. I think he wants the stock price to go down.
Old news but, Chief accounting officer walks away too.
Btw.
"McLaren, we make Elon's dream car."
https://youtu.be/x3tlVE_QXm4
Just heard on the news tonight that the head of HR has decided she's not coming back to the company.
Elon Musk on 9/10 Monday SQUAWK BOX interview with CNBC.
https://youtu.be/CeXGnSpjgNM
ETA: I am not a fanturd nor shorturd. I am just ROFLing on what Elon Must did on the Joe Rogan's interview which I just watched highlights of it. It was funny at a [possible] cost of share holder.
ChadAmberg
09-08-2018, 07:48
Took a social media class last week and the average attention span of people is 7 seconds now.
I think that is why the DIY and "Reality" shows seem so jerky to me.
The whole scene flashes and changes every 3-4 seconds.
I get headaches with strobes and the constant changing scenes gives me eye strain.
Gettin' too old for this stuff
[blaster]
I wish my attention span lasted... SQUIRREL!!!!!
Don’t let the smoke distract from the Tesla fire (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-let-the-smoke-distract-from-the-tesla-fire-2018-09-07)
Abrupt departure of accounting officer is the real issue, not Elon Musk’s amateurish puff of weed
While the media is in a tizzy about Tesla Inc. Chief Executive Elon Musk taking a hit of marijuana during a two-hour plus podcast with Joe Rogan on Thursday night, that is not the problem with Tesla stock on Friday, and shouldn’t be investors’ focus.
The real issue is Friday’s disclosure that Dave Morton, Tesla’s TSLA, -6.30% new chief accounting officer, had resigned after only one month on the job, citing the level of public attention and pace of work at the company. CNBC reported that Morton resigned after he concluded that Musk was not interested in the accounting details surrounding his impulsive “go private” transaction that he brashly announced on Twitter, without having any “funding secured.”
Morton is the third accounting executive to leave the company in the past few months, amid a slew of other executive departures. Morton’s resignation follows the resignation in March of Eric Branderiz, who joined Tesla from SunPower Corp. SPWR, -2.45% in 2016 as chief accounting officer, and Susan Repo, who was Tesla’s corporate treasurer and vice president of finance.
That turnover is just in the accounting department — Bloomberg News also reported Friday that Tesla’s head of human resources is not returning from a leave of absence, part of a wave of exits at the company. Tesla has seen so many executive departures in the past year and a half that in April, short seller Jim Chanos told CNBC about his infamous list he has been compiling on the accelerating rate of executive departures.
“Probably the number one sign of impending problems is mass executive departures, I don’t mean one or two people, I mean 30 or 40,” Chanos said. “This is becoming a torrent at Tesla, and we keep this sort of list that is well known, the Tesla executive departure list, it is now two pages single spaced for the last 18 months.”
If Musk is not able to keep and attract good executives at Tesla, then he will be under even further pressure to do more on his own, and the whole take-private fiasco shows what happens when Musk acts without adult supervision. There has been chatter about the need for Tesla to hire a chief operating officer to help Musk run the company, but what competent executive is going to walk into the fire at Tesla and actually manage to tame Musk?
Tesla keeps losing senior leadership — here are some of the key departures this year (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/tesla-executive-departures-in-2018.html)
Morton and Toledano are just the latest top Tesla employees to depart amid a tumultuous year for the automaker. Tesla has battled through production delays, swinging stock prices and the wild antics of its CEO.
In total 41 executives have left Tesla in 2018, according to a tracker maintained by Tesla short-seller Jim Chanos, including 58 in the last 12 months. The company laid off at least 9 percent of its workforce in June (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/12/tesla-to-cut-about-9-percent-of-jobs-across-company-report.html) — the same month 13 executives left the company, according to Chanos' list.
On Friday, the company announced it was promoting (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/tesla-says-jerome-guillen-has-been-promoted-to-president-of-automotive.html) several new executives, some of whom fill the shoes of people who left this year.
Ouch.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/27/tesla-falls-4percent-on-report-elon-musk-sued-by-sec.html
Stock is down about 13% in after-hours trading.
Stock is down about 13% in after-hours trading.
As of:
Sep 28, 10:01 AM EDT · Disclaimer
273.42 USD −34.10 (-11.09%)
[panic]
I am not a fantard nor shortard of TSLA, but I kinda see Short Sellers really fraustrated Elon Musk. I've seen dumber.
Taser (Now Axon) CEO during 2003 doing stupid[er] sh1t before to short sellers. CEO of Taser RickSmith demanded Yahoo message board (now market place) to release the IP of one of the poster (ubswarbird) so that they can file a stupid lawsuit.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106035250970197500
http://investor.axon.com/static-files/0840fe14-9e4f-4566-90f5-0d3f2c43572b
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1069183/000095012404003869/p69538e10qsb.htm
I just can't do these podcast things. If they had a transcript I could read all the bullshit in about 5 minutes, tops. Sitting through 2 1/2 hours while people chuckle and continuously repeat themselves to fill awkward gaps is torture. It's like having to sit in an elementary classroom as an adult and listen to eight hours of lecturing on the alphabet before being permitted to "test out" of it. I just value the time in my life and like to use it efficiently.
I'm not surprised that the guy who admins a forum prefers to read text vs. listen to speech.
Closed down 13.9% today.
Why legal experts say the SEC has a strong case against Elon Musk (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-legal-experts-say-the-sec-has-a-strong-case-against-musk-2018-09-28)
Tesla CEO’s conduct was ‘egregious,’ says defense lawyer
Elon Musk’s biggest fans may think the Tesla chairman and CEO’s chronic casual indifference about legal and regulatory requirements is charming and even a sign of genius. But on Thursday the Securities and Exchange Commission warned Musk, and investors, that his “celebrity status or reputation as a technological innovator does not give license to take those responsibilities lightly.”
The SEC made swift work of its investigation of Musk’s series of allegedly false and misleading tweets starting on August 7 about a potential transaction to take Tesla TSLA, +0.08% private, filing charges in federal court late Thursday less than two months later.
David Chase, a former attorney with the SEC’s division of enforcement, who now represents white-collar defendants at his own firm, told MarketWatch, “The SEC could move fast because it was a straight-up, simple case. Either he had factual support for the tweet or he didn’t.”
In its complaint, the SEC’s lawyers methodically made a case for why Musk missed every step for a prudent go-private transaction when he made his go-private offer in a tweet on August 7.
“I was as surprised as anyone else when Musk tweeted the go-private proposal, that he chose that medium to communicate material information,” Chase said in an interview with MarketWatch. “But given his position as chairman, CEO and largest shareholder, I also assumed there was some factual basis for it.”
Beginning in January 2017, Musk had three or four in-person meetings with representatives of a Saudi Arabia sovereign investment fund. During these meetings, according to testimony Musk gave the SEC, the lead representative of the fund expressed a verbal desire to make a large investment in Tesla and establish a Tesla production facility in the Middle East.
Between July 31, 2018 when the SEC says Musk met again with representatives of the fund and the morning of Aug. 7 when he tweeted his go-private offer announcement, Musk did not have any further substantive communications with representatives of the fund or discuss a going-private transaction at a share price of $420 with any potential funding source, the SEC said.
He also did not contact any additional potential strategic investors to assess their interest in participating in a going-private transaction or retain any advisors to assist with a going-private transaction until after he made the tweet, according to the SEC.
The SEC says at the July 31 meeting with the fund, Musk did not discuss any dollar amount or specific ownership percentage for the fund’s investment in a going-private transaction, any specific acquisition price premium to be offered to current Tesla shareholders or his own process for board approvals of the transaction. He also did not inquire about the fund’s available liquid capital, whether the fund had any past experience participating in a going-private, and any potential restrictions on foreign ownership of a significant stake in Tesla or regulatory hurdles that would have to be overcome.
Musk, and Tesla, also did not notify Nasdaq, where the shares are listed, prior to publishing his August 7 tweets. Nasdaq rules require that listed companies such as Tesla must notify Nasdaq at least ten minutes prior to publicly releasing material information about corporate events like a proposed going-private action.
Nasdaq halted trading in Tesla shares at 2:08 p.m. Eastern, about 1 hour and twenty minutes after Musk sent out the first tweet, in the middle of the day’s official market trading. Immediately after this tweet, the trading volume and price of Tesla shares spiked. Nasdaq lifted the trading halt on Tesla shares about ninety minutes later. After trading resumed, Tesla’s stock price continued to rise, closing at $379.57, up over 6% from the time Musk first tweeted about taking Tesla private earlier that day, according to the SEC’s complaint.
Bennett Lasko, an attorney in private practice who represents companies and executives in securities litigation, told MarketWatch, “It’s a pretty egregious case. Musk said he had funding secured and he didn’t. He hadn’t even discussed price with any funding source. Hundreds of millions of dollars changed hands within hours, and by the time the dust settled at the end of August, investors likely took more than a billion dollars in losses.”
68Charger
09-28-2018, 16:52
SEC regulations are for chumps...[hahhah-no]
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-develop-liquid-that-sucks-up-sun-s-energy
I wonder about what the catalyst is, and if it depletes over time.
The system works in a circular manner. Pumping through transparent tubes, the fluid is heated up by the sunlight, turning the molecule norbornadiene into its heat-trapping isomer, quadricyclane. The fluid is then stored at room temperature with minimal energy loss.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricyclane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbornadiene
Nothing in the article states what the chemicals are made of, so we have no idea of their cost, rarity, toxicity, ease of fabrication, or whether or not they have unique handling requirements.
It's a neat concept, and the fact they've gotten it to work in a lab is a fundamental baby step, but they're a long way away from building a gigafactory capable of making this stuff (and the attendant whole-home systems that could use it) at anything like industrial scale.
Oh, and for all the Tesla haters here, just a quick heads up that Tesla posted a profit last quarter.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/29/3-big-surprises-in-teslas-q3-earnings.aspx
Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) caught investors off guard last Wednesday by reporting a massive third-quarter profit of $312 million. This was just the third time in the company's history that it has reported a quarterly profit under GAAP accounting rules, and it easily set a new earnings record for Tesla.
Note that this is before the Model 3 has even gone on sale in Europe or Asia.
Oh, and for all the Tesla haters here, just a quick heads up that Tesla posted a profit last quarter.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/29/3-big-surprises-in-teslas-q3-earnings.aspx
Note that this is before the Model 3 has even gone on sale in Europe or Asia.
For those that aren't aware what this means... it's YUGE! Experts were saying if they even came close to breaking even while still losing lots of money it would be a tremendous success. They blew that high mark out of the water in a massive way and are well on their way to making even more money with every single quarter moving forward. Funny how many of the big short sellers took their loss and folded their short position on Tesla. It went from about $250/share a couple of weeks ago when I was telling people to buy to almost $350/share currently. There is very little competition in sight at this point too so that number shows no signs of going lower either much to the chagrin of the Tesla haters who want to see a successful American company that is actually innovating fail for reasons known only to them.
68Charger
11-06-2018, 09:46
Here ya go... you may want to use this- it's electric!
76530
Aloha_Shooter
11-06-2018, 09:50
https://youtu.be/TRYcNO4F02w?t=29
Ural and Zero Motorcycles have gotten together to build a prototype electric Ural. Neat thing here is they use the side car to store additional batteries.
https://www.imz-ural.com/electric
One would hope that with the power train being developed by an American company with experience building electric motorcycles that this project will result in something pretty cool; a Ural that's actually reliable.
In other EV news, a new air craft racing league is being stood up that will use electric powered planes.
https://insideevs.com/first-ever-electric-race-airplane/
Haven't seen this thread for a while. Regarding Tesla's profit, let's see if they can do it 2 quarters in a row. There were a number of reports of suppliers going unpaid prior to the end of the last quarter.
Given that the bulk of the capital expenditures are overwith, I see no reason why they wouldn't continue to make a profit.
Hell, they're outselling BMW and Mercedes.
Man, I want one of those Electric Urals. Without the crap Russian power plant, I bet they'd actually run well. One in OD Green or Coyote Brown would be fun.
Martinjmpr
11-14-2018, 09:39
Given that the bulk of the capital expenditures are overwith, I see no reason why they wouldn't continue to make a profit.
Hell, they're outselling BMW and Mercedes.
Man, I want one of those Electric Urals. Without the crap Russian power plant, I bet they'd actually run well. One in OD Green or Coyote Brown would be fun.
And with a sidecar to carry the batteries it would likely have decent range. I think most electric motorcycles are limited to around 125 miles now and then it's 4+ hours on the charger.
125 is about the top end of range for electric motorcycles. Most of them are more like 50-70, which would seem to put them in the toy category. The Ural prototype has a range of 108 miles, and that's using components that Zero developed in 2016. If they could get the range of a commercial Ural up to around 125-150, I think that would be pretty useful, especially with the addition of the sidecar.
Currently Zero seems to be at or near the top of the game when it comes to electric motorcycles:
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/
They make some good looking products, that's for sure.
Haven't seen this thread for a while. Regarding Tesla's profit, let's see if they can do it 2 quarters in a row. There were a number of reports of suppliers going unpaid prior to the end of the last quarter.
Do you have details, links or citations for these numerous reports? Nobody making these claims seems to have any details or even names. They claim that supplier bankruptcies are a sure-fire sign that Tesla isn't paying up. Or... it could just be mismanaged companies. lol Tesla has enough on their plate running their own company w/o having to make sure each of it's supplier companies can also manage themselves properly.
The unpaid supplier thing was something that happened in the depths of the development hell of the Model 3. There's been no word on it at all since earlier this year around June/July, iirc.
I think it boiled down to something like one or two suppliers being asked to return money on stuff they hadn't yet supplied.
Nothing since then on it, and the lack of news about unhappy Tesla suppliers would seem to indicate that it's no longer a problem.
The unpaid supplier thing was something that happened in the depths of the development hell of the Model 3. There's been no word on it at all since earlier this year around June/July, iirc.
I think it boiled down to something like one or two suppliers being asked to return money on stuff they hadn't yet supplied.
Nothing since then on it, and the lack of news about unhappy Tesla suppliers would seem to indicate that it's no longer a problem.
So just more people looking for reasons to hate Tesla where fewer and fewer exist. We're in reruns already. Got it. lol
Inside EVs has posted up a super early analysis of possible performance specs of the Tesla Pickup based on what little is known about it.
If their analysis is anywhere close to right, this thing is going to be a monster.
https://insideevs.com/tesla-pickup-truck-specs-modeled/
ChickNorris
11-14-2018, 13:40
Um, monster + truck.
Heehee
68Charger
11-15-2018, 12:05
Finally found an electric hybrid I could be interested in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzLNC-strf0
The "making of" video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v0deFLbDz8
ChickNorris
11-15-2018, 12:10
Double Yay!
Because building it could be as fun as playing with it.
http://youtu.be/POSKNO7z5Sw
Rivian Motors is now demoing an electric pickup, and they've released the specs for it as well.
The design looks super promising, but getting to production will be a challenge. I also think that their estimated price point is super optimisitc.
That said, the 180 kWh battery pack is almost twice as big as the biggest one currently available on the market.
https://insideevs.com/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-world-debut/
68Charger
11-26-2018, 10:21
Rivian Motors is now demoing an electric pickup, and they've released the specs for it as well.
The design looks super promising, but getting to production will be a challenge. I also think that their estimated price point is super optimisitc.
That said, the 180 kWh battery pack is almost twice as big as the biggest one currently available on the market.
https://insideevs.com/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-world-debut/
It can sprint from zero to 60 mph in 3 seconds or to 100 in 7 seconds. The R1T can also tow a whopping 11,000 pounds.
So it's a sporty 1/2 ton, 11k towing capacity is not competitive with 3/4 Ton or 1 Ton Diesels. I'm sure it will have plenty of interest if they can pull off $68K price tag... I'm sure that's for the base model- curious what the price is for one with a more usable range. But it will not compete in the true work truck market.
Seems clear to me they're not shooting for the work truck market with this first design.
This looks more like shots fired at the daily driver F-150 types.
Seems clear to me they're not shooting for the work truck market with this first design.
This looks more like shots fired at the daily driver F-150 types.
That's what I took it to be too. Not a bad salvo for an opening volley either based on specs on paper. It will be interesting to see how it comes out of the other end of the tunnel and if people buy it.
68Charger
11-26-2018, 12:29
Based on the performance and price point- more closely resembles the Raptor than a standard F150
Electrek has more pictures of the truck. Notable for the design is a storage compartment behind the passenger area they're calling the Gear Tunnel, which looks like it'd be a good place to discreetly store things that are long and skinny...
That, combined with the frunk kind of seems like a good idea, in that the design will have more lockable storage space than a normal pickup.
https://electrek.co/2018/11/26/rivian-r1t-all-electric-pickup-specs/
I like how in the first article that you posted, when talking about the gear tunnel, they said, "...or even golf clubs." instead of up to ten rifles!
Yeah, golf clubs. Sure.
That's the ticket.
The first thing I'd do is make a couple triangle templates so I could build a rack to hold rifles from either side.
Jeffrey Lebowski
11-26-2018, 20:37
I dig it.
Btw. Are EV still free at HOV lane?
Btw. Are EV still free at HOV lane?
Not in Colorado. Not only is this one of the few states that doesn't allow EVs in the HOV lane but it charges additional registration fees to EVs that ICE cars don't have to pay. It's pretty awesome when every other state is giving discounts and benefits to incentivize people in buying EVs and Colorado is actually punishing them. Mind you it's not a lot more in fees but it's the principle more than anything. I'm not saying that I need handouts but don't charge me more.
Highway maintenance is supported by gas taxes (theoretically). EVs use the same infrastructure, but they don't pay gas taxes, so there you go, more fees.
Hey, those light rail programs no one rides aren't going to pay for themselves.
hurley842002
11-27-2018, 18:03
Hey, those light rail programs no one rides aren't going to pay for themselves.Umm, you live in the Springs, have you been on the light rail?
68Charger
11-27-2018, 19:06
Umm, you live in the Springs, have you been on the light rail?
Yeah, the "Light rail" is reserved for LGBQT (XYZPDQ) treatment of people who visit the "METRO"
Umm, you live in the Springs, have you been on the light rail?
Hell no. As a general rule, I don't take public transportation unless there's absolutely no other way to get where I'm going.
hurley842002
11-28-2018, 11:58
Hell no. As a general rule, I don't take public transportation unless there's absolutely no other way to get where I'm going.
Then you probably aren't aware that TONS of people use the light rail. I too steer clear of public transportation, and can count on two fingers the number of times I've been on the light rail, but living just over a mile from the Downtown Littleton light rail station, I can assure you that the rail gets plenty of use.
Ah. Well. I stand corrected.
The last few times I've been in Denver, the light rail cars that run parallel to I25 always seemed to be empty or minimally populated.
I guess it's a good thing that they're being utilized.
hurley842002
11-29-2018, 09:23
Ah. Well. I stand corrected.
The last few times I've been in Denver, the light rail cars that run parallel to I25 always seemed to be empty or minimally populated.
I guess it's a good thing that they're being utilized.The majority of use comes from the Mon-Fri work crowd, and then weekends mainly for big events like sports, GABF, concerts etc.
ChickNorris
11-29-2018, 09:56
My husband chooses to use the train rather than drive to work near everyday. Saves a minimum of 25 minutes ea. way & sometimes much more.
hurley842002
11-29-2018, 09:58
My husband chooses to use the train rather than drive to work near everyday. Saves a minimum of 25 minutes ea. way & sometimes much more.I think doing the work commute on the train probably isn't too bad, but you couldn't pay me to ride it on New year's or St. Patrick's day.
The majority of use comes from the Mon-Fri work crowd, and then weekends mainly for big events like sports, GABF, concerts etc.
I didn't know it was being utilized, but then I only see it empty on the weekends.
Bolinger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dav55oUJ-w
Bolinger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dav55oUJ-w
Will they call it Bollocks in the UK?
I'm concerned with the requirement to have a noise at low speeds. How are dudes supposed to quietly road hunt with that going on? Even wheeling might be annoying.
Bailey Guns
12-01-2018, 19:44
I can see the appeal of the B1. But for the price of $60k to $100k that will buy $20k to $60k worth of diesel fuel after the price of a new F-250.
I can see the appeal of the B1. But for the price of $60k to $100k that will buy $20k to $60k worth of diesel fuel after the price of a new F-250.
I feel like one could make the argument that you could buy a Tasco scope from Wal-mart for your long range rifle and then have an extra $2,400 to buy premium ammo for your rifle.
I wouldn't make that argument because the difference between an F-250 and a Bollinger is much less than the difference between a Tasco and a $2,500 scope.
Great-Kazoo
12-01-2018, 21:00
I feel like one could make the argument that you could buy a Tasco scope from Wal-mart for your long range rifle and then have an extra $2,400 to buy premium ammo for your rifle.
I wouldn't make that argument because the difference between an F-250 and a Bollinger is much less than the difference between a Tasco and a $2,500 scope.
What can the Bollinger do better than, or out perform, the F250
Well it costs more for starters.
Bailey Guns
12-01-2018, 22:08
What can the Bollinger do better than, or out perform, the F250
Lighten your wallet so you don't have all that cash weighing you down.
BushMasterBoy
12-01-2018, 22:45
You ever notice the giant jacked up truck and the driver jumps out and is 5'4" and wears a goatee. His wife is 5'9" and weighs 350 lbs. Her beard needs a trim and her clothes haven't been washed in 3 days.
I'm concerned with the requirement to have a noise at low speeds. How are dudes supposed to quietly road hunt with that going on? Even wheeling might be annoying.
Loud pipes save lives! [Coffee]
Personally, I think the styling of this thing is comical. Was the designer only given a pencil and a ruler?
OtterbatHellcat
12-02-2018, 00:20
You ever notice the giant jacked up truck and the driver jumps out and is 5'4" and wears a goatee. His wife is 5'9" and weighs 350 lbs. Her beard needs a trim and her clothes haven't been washed in 3 days.
Maybe in the south? I don't see that here, but maybe you do. Lots of lifted trucks in the 80's, less in the 90's...and not really a lot of them today. Over sized tires and body lifts don't count as lift. Wife analysis is purely subjective, but like anything else...everyone judges and stereotypes all the time whether they admit it or not. I do it too.
No one wants to wheel in something that looks like a first generation Saturn or that one Subaru with all the glass windows.
OtterbatHellcat
12-02-2018, 00:25
Glass is underrated, I think it's awesome.
I'm upset that I can't remember the model of that car. I do dislike sunroofs (and my Amigo has two!), but it was more about the swooping lines I was thinking were the opposite of the boxy Bollinger.
BushMasterBoy
12-02-2018, 01:04
Maybe in the south? I don't see that here, but maybe you do. Lots of lifted trucks in the 80's, less in the 90's...and not really a lot of them today. Over sized tires and body lifts don't count as lift. Wife analysis is purely subjective, but like anything else...everyone judges and stereotypes all the time whether they admit it or not. I do it too.
South Colorado, but I am north of the sex change capital, Trinidad.
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