View Full Version : Bear Creek Arsenal (BCA) Raided by ICE
This was on of the most interesting thread without name calling.
BladesNBarrels
02-08-2019, 17:09
This was one of the most interesting thread without name calling.
Yep!
Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.
--Sergeant Joe Friday on Dragnet
BushMasterBoy
02-08-2019, 17:21
At least the Americans won the Superbowl!
Back on topic(ish)
Senora Socialist saw the ICE raid on BCA and wants to make sure that affordable firearm parts are still available.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-calls-to-abolish-ice-says-latinos-must-be-exempt-from-immigration-laws-because-they-are-native-to-us.amp
I feel the same way about this as I do whenever someone says something dumb about how the raccoons were here first and we moved into their territory. NO. My house is near 70 years old. Raccoons live 3-4 years in the wild. Over 15 generations of raccoons and coyotes have been trespassing. Not to mention that both coyotes and raccoons did not historically occupy all the areas that they do today.
Great-Kazoo
02-08-2019, 21:28
Just upped my off road cred .
https://www.bilstein.com/int/en/product/bilstein-b6-4600/
I can almost see that Tier 1 rating, in the distance.
Just upped my off road cred .
https://www.bilstein.com/int/en/product/bilstein-b6-4600/
I can almost see that Tier 1 rating, in the distance.
I had my mechanic look it over.
77313
The cable tie around the boot is crooked. Certainly not Tier 1 work. Was probably done by illegals.
Better have your mechanic look over your file attachment.
EDIT: Whoa, fast fix, he must be on call.
[ROFL2]
This could be a fun trend.
Great-Kazoo
02-09-2019, 08:41
I had my mechanic look it over.
77313
The cable tie around the boot is crooked. Certainly not Tier 1 work. Was probably done by illegals.
That's a different shock than the ones i have coming. I asked for a more neutral color than blue. I'm concerned someone may attack the truck for "implying" it's for men only. As the color blue is or was, usually reserved for "males" .
I asked if they offered a manly pink, or butch red. Something to show my inclusivity .
Back OT for a moment.
This the story of how my FN produced M16A4 came into my hands in 2010 through 2011, whilst serving in a Tier 2 or 3 Infantry Company in the United States Marine Corps.
Some time before 2010 FN won a contract to supply the DOD with service Rifles. They were given the Technical Data Package that contains all the drawings, dimensions, and specifications for how a M16A4 must be built in order to pass all the requirements for a M16A4 to be accepted as government issue.
FN began manufacturing M16A4?s. They not only made sure to make their contracted rifles as close to the governments requirements as possible, they checked rifles as they were about to be packaged and shipped to whatever part of the DOD would be receiving them. Some FN employee, perhaps with a .gov employee looking over his shoulder occasionally looked at dimensions, at part fitment, at function. The rifle may have even been test fired, it may have been checked for mechanical accuracy/precision. For all I know they may all have been test fired.
The M16A4 was then sent to a part of the DOD. The DOD had paid FN north of $650 for this rifle.
The receiving unit of the DOD took accountability for the rifle, it?s serial number was entered into a log.
At some point in the DOD acceptance chain, or at multiple points this rifle was checked to ensure it was in working order, had all its parts and that it passed a mechanical function check.
The rifle was finally issued to an individual Marine or Sailor serving somewhere in the 1st Division. He, or she took the rifle to at least one Qualification Range a year. It was cleaned, maintained, and function tested regularly. The Rifle was passed back and forth between this Marine or Sailor and the unit armorer many times. When that service member left that unit, or left the service of the Corps and Country that rifle was de-issued, the armory changed that particular service rifle as being an open issue rifle, someone else could now be issued that rifle.
At certain points the Armory was inspected, usually annually. ALL equipment including rifles were checked, inspected, and accounted for. Rifles were checked for chamber and bolt headspace and barrel wear. Cam and firing pins, extractors, ejectors, bolts, gas tubes, sears, disconnectors, triggers, hammers, safeties, magazine and bolt catches, detents, springs, pins, buffers, stocks, grips, hand-guards, sights, and muzzle devices were checked to see if they were all still in serviceable, functioning order. If not they were replaced. Pity the LCPL or PFC who short changed his work and was found out by a senior NCO or Officer upon inspection, (and people wonder why armorers and small arms repair technicians were always in a bad mood).
This process occurred over, and over again..
Years passed.
I was finally issued this Rifle. I may have been the 5th Marine issued this rifle, or the 2nd. I tore it down and inspected to the level I was trained and authorized to. I cleaned it. I looked for cracks, chips, and internal damage or wear. I lubricated it, reassembled it, and would eventually shoot a thousand or so rounds through it over the course of a year in preparation for a combat deployment.
When my magazines were causing malfunctions I would replace them. When my rifle experienced malfunctions not caused by magazines I tore the rifle down and checked the internals. My Extractor O-Ring and insert were both missing. Maybe I lost them, maybe the armorer robbed Peter to pay Paul, maybe heat and CLP had worn them down to grit. It doesn?t matter. I had all my Marines in my Fire team inspect their weapons, then I inspected them and checked function. All of our weapons had major or minor issues. We took a trip to the Battalion Armorer. At first the LCPL was annoyed and didn?t want to get those parts replaced. My loud conversation with him that was overheard by his Sergeant made him adjust his attitude. All of our weapons were brought back into serviceable condition. Gas rings replaced, new ejectors, extractors, and extractor O-Rings, and inserts.
Before every patrol in training and in Combat our rifles were checked. Rifles that had been within arms reach for months. They were still checked and re-checked. They were cleaned, lined, inspected, re-inspected.
My rifle did not have a single stoppage during the course of a 7 month combat deployment where it was fired in anger and in zero confirmation hundreds of times.
I believe in checking ones equipment. I do not have the luxury of FN?s QA/QC Department, DOD inspectors, or USMC Division, Regiment, Battalion, and Company armorers. I don not have access to vast quantities of small parts or replacement Rifles.
I am on a budget. I own one Rifle. I paid Rob at Bowers to check my Rifle to make sure there were no glaring issues with it prior to taking it out in its maiden zeroing range trip. I exchanged some small parts for slightly higher quality parts. I shoot it regularly. I?ve taken it to precisely one Carbine course. I?ve fired under 5,000 rounds through it. It still groups within the standards of DOD, 4MOA, regardless of what I have fed it.
I have worked at a local public gun range as an RSO, Instructor, and Range Manager. I watched over a million rounds fired down range through every stripe imaginable of firearm.
A large percentage of these firearms where AR-15?s.
I have seen high dollar rifles used by low I.Q. low dollar shooters that had issues.
I?ve seen low dollar budget rifles that had been tuned and modified into working order.
The vast majority of the problems experienced by AR-15?s where budget brand factory rifles and home built garage gunsmith built guns.
Turns out you with your vast experience and Brownell Armorer tool kit, (let?s be honest most used hand tools they already owned), do not come remotely close to the knowledge base and experience of Colt, FN, BCM, KAC, Hodge, or DD.
This experience, along with others, has formed my opinions and beliefs about Rifles, training, equipment, and trusting but verifying everything.
This has led me to be ridiculed and blocked, by those that up until recently were people I thought of as peers, friends, and fellow Riflemen.
I am apparently now a ?Tier-1? Gun snob.
Check your equipment.
Train.
Self educate.
Don?t be a moron.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Jeez, Lighten up, Francis!
[ROFL1]
We all have our trigger points, yours is apparently other people thinking that just because their $500 AR functions adequately for their needs that it may not be junk. So be it. It's probably not necessary to pontificate on the issue repeatedly, that's how you get snazzy custom titles. Take it all in good humor and move on.
Scanker19
02-09-2019, 10:16
My faith in the military selection process and maintenance of equipment went out the door with the road wheels that lasted 5 miles. Also if they paid 650 for an FN but I pay 1000 for an FN where were corners cut?
BushMasterBoy
02-09-2019, 11:00
I lost my assault rifle virginity on a firing range a few miles away from the Alamo. The rifle looked like it had been used as a fencing tool to stretch barbed wire. It was a Colt. It definitely a tier 7 firearm as the receivers were more silver than black. Somehow I managed to qualify with it, the 49 others in the unit did not qualify with their weapons. The picture below is just to make this true story interesting.
77319
My faith in the military selection process and maintenance of equipment went out the door with the road wheels that lasted 5 miles. Also if they paid 650 for an FN but I pay 1000 for an FN where were corners cut?
The TDP doesn?t require a hammer forged free floated barrel. The average 2MOA capable civilian customer would complain if their purchased FN rifle shot less than 1MOA. Military rifles only have to, If memory serves, 4-5 MOA. Also the scale of one of the largest modern military rifle contracts in the world allows for there to be a bit of savings to the DOD, and hence, you and me the taxpayer. FN semi auto AR-15?s are fantastic rifles. $1,000 is a heck of a good deal by any measure. I?d wager you make more than that in a month of income.
7732377324
The average worker in the 1870?s worked 6-7 days a week. If we round up his pay to $2.36/Day, it would have taken him 22 work days to have earned the $50.00 necessary to purchase a state of the art rifle in 1873. As time went on, scale of production and rising wages that would have course changed. This is but one example of the rule of thumb for 1 months of the average working class persons wages to obtain a great rifle. This has essentially been what a good, reliable, military grade or higher rifle has cost in every decade since the 1700?s.
Link for the wages information.
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/title/3943/item/477570
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Bailey Guns
02-09-2019, 11:20
Jeez, Lighten up, Francis!
[ROFL1]
We all have our trigger points, yours is apparently other people thinking that just because their $500 AR functions adequately for their needs that it may not be junk. So be it. It's probably not necessary to pontificate on the issue repeatedly, that's how you get snazzy custom titles. Take it all in good humor and move on.
You can always tell a Marine. You just can't tell 'em much.
[Coffee]
This is but one example of the rule of thumb of 1 months of average wages to obtain a great rifle.That's really a stupid idea since it varies greatly based on the variance of monthly wages and takes no consideration to the same individual's obligations. For example, who "needs" a $10,000 AR?
My rule of thumb is to get something you can afford and meets your needs. The rifle you want to own/use doesn't require the approval of a Tier 1 Chair Commando.
Next topics, Tier 1 shotguns, revolvers, and pistols. [beatdeadhorse]
"...because they don't make a .46!"...except they DO...https://www.460rowland.com/
You can always tell a Marine. You just can't tell 'em much.
[Coffee]
Juss stopp.
[Mad]
3beansalad
02-09-2019, 13:52
I'd just like to thank BCA for the free barrel last Veteran's Day.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
OtterbatHellcat
02-09-2019, 13:59
wow.
Great-Kazoo
02-09-2019, 17:04
I'd just like to thank BCA for the free barrel last Veteran's Day.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Yes they've been very good to veterans. I lucked out and scored a 3rd off a free give away. I'd post 1 of them, but concerned about being gun shamed
Bailey Guns
02-09-2019, 17:39
Well, I'll admit it... I own a Taurus Judge and a Heritage Rough Rider and the two combined don't even come close to a month's wages even for me, a lowly truck driver. But "they work for me" despite the fact that experts on YouTube scoff at the idea low-dollar guns can actually function as intended. In my defense both have confirmed kills despite never having had a "once over" by a gunsmith or even an armorer. A rattlesnake for the Judge and two packrats for the Heritage. One of them was right on top of the exhaust manifold of my wife's Traverse. The look on her face when I fired a shot into the engine compartment of her car was priceless. I was using a .22LR shotshell. Don't even think it penetrated thru the rat.
I once only made $500 in 1 month. So tier1 AR to monthly income ratio is 1:1.
:)
That's really a stupid idea since it varies greatly based on the variance of monthly wages and takes no consideration to the same individual's obligations. For example, who "needs" a $10,000 AR?
My rule of thumb is to get something you can afford and meets your needs. The rifle you want to own/use doesn't require the approval of a Tier 1 Chair Commando.
Next topics, Tier 1 shotguns, revolvers, and pistols. [beatdeadhorse]
Average wages for the working class. I?ll correct my post above. Thanks for catching that.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
I once only made $500 in 1 month. So tier1 AR to monthly income ratio is 1:1.
:)
See post #68.
77333
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Average wages for the working class.
How do you define "working class" and how many tiers are there?
How do you define "working class" and how many tiers are there?
77334
Tiers of what?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Scanker19
02-10-2019, 09:28
What if I had a job in which I was compensated every month with a PSA AR?
Scanker19
02-10-2019, 09:30
You can always tell a Marine. You just can't tell 'em much.
[Coffee]
That?s not very nice. I used to tell Marines a lot. I had to use construction paper, crayons and hand puppets, but I think they usually enjoyed it.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 09:31
How do you define "working class" and how many tiers are there?
How does one define average. According to D's the working class is below average and needs a living wage. How they came up with $15 hrly is questionable. .
Let's stop beating around the bush. One months pay is too much to spend on a rifle no matter what you make. If you make $36,000 a year, you'd have to be brain dead to make such a poor financial decision to spend $3,000 on a rifle. On the flip side, if you make $120,000 a year, you'd have to be equally brain dead to imagine that paying $10,000 for a rifle is where you have to start if you want quality.
ChickNorris
02-10-2019, 10:20
Brain dead eh?
From scratch including basic gear, storage, optics, etc., 3k doesn't seem too far off if you have a particular task in mind & want the right tool (s).
ChickNorris
02-10-2019, 10:25
Oh... & I use it more than a little by most folks standards.
I'm talking about just the rifle, AND the idea that anything less isn't good enough. Remember what this thread is about. We all spend a lot on our hobbies or buy stuff just because. I'm specifically dissecting the idea that if it didn't cost a months salary is not worth having.
To feel like 8% of your income or nothing at all is foolish at any income level. There are some people that make 36k and have a paid off house and no other debt, but not many. The idea that it takes a months pay to spend on a rifle before you can rely on it to protect your life is silly at any level. If it takes you a couple years to save up for it, what was protecting your life in the mean time?
I'm trying to think of ANY product that would even fall into this guideline. Not a computer. You could argue a vehicle. Basing how much of your salary you should spend on anything is purely a keeping up with Jones's type marketing strategy that makes you a consumer whore more than anything else.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/22/a8/8322a8a07e2c777134f5e34b635bd54d.jpg
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 10:50
Let's stop beating around the bush. One months pay is too much to spend on a rifle no matter what you make. If you make $36,000 a year, you'd have to be brain dead to make such a poor financial decision to spend $3,000 on a rifle. On the flip side, if you make $120,000 a year, you'd have to be equally brain dead to imagine that paying $10,000 for a rifle is where you have to start if you want quality.
Well, now that we're done having fun, this is exactly right. As a matter of fact, the idea that spending a month's salary on a gun or it isn't worth having is, frankly, comical in it's stupidity.
I've heard of using one month's salary for determining how much to spend on an engagement ring (I guess DeBeers in their self interest has upped it to 2), and X times your household income to define how much home to buy. I've never heard of anything like this to define what makes a rifle adequate enough to purchase.
I can get my work done on a $2,000 computer. I could spend a lot more than that, but then it would be discretionary spending on my part. It wouldn't have anything to do with the lesser cost system being ineffective.
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 10:56
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/22/a8/8322a8a07e2c777134f5e34b635bd54d.jpg
Biggest scam on earth.
Wife told me she'd rather have a gun than a piece of jewelry she's not going to wear. That's how she got a Sig 238 in pearlescent purple a few years ago for Valentines day! And a Tiffany blue Glock 43 a few years after that.
I'll drop $800 on a handgun because I know what an $800 handgun should look like.
I don't know jack about Diamonds and whenever I buy jewelry I always feel like a sucker.
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 10:58
That?s not very nice. I used to tell Marines a lot. I had to use construction paper, crayons and hand puppets, but I think they usually enjoyed it.
How did you keep them from eating the crayons?
buffalobo
02-10-2019, 11:05
Brain dead eh?
From scratch including basic gear, storage, optics, etc., 3k doesn't seem too far off if you have a particular task in mind & want the right tool (s).It does to me. $3000 for what task?
1 month of average wages for a working class man since the 1700?s = A Military Grade or better Rifle.
Not 1 month of wage for someone making 120K/Year.
Not 1 month of wages of someone making 12K/Year.
It?s called a comparison. $800-1,000 is not too much money for something that MUST work, it?s better than par for the course.
For those making 3rd grade comments about Crayons, I believe I also mentioned that I paid far less than that for a decent functioning rifle, kind of hard to talk crap about someone?s intellect or experience when you have a significant lack of reading comprehension.
I don?t make petty insults of people?s service to our country. I don?t care where you served, or with what branch. I mentioned mine because someone asked.
Again if your happy with your BCA, Rock on. Doesn?t make it something it isn?t.
Start your own thread taking other brands to task.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
kidicarus13
02-10-2019, 13:36
Biggest scam on earth.
https://www.torontomoissanite.com/moissanite-ring-blog/2017/2/1/the-diamond-engagement-ring-greatest-marketing-scam-in-history
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 13:40
Now you're gonna whine about members of other military branches kidding each other?
RUFKM?
And if you can't do basic math, I will question your intellect. $800 month translates to a yearly income of $9600. $1000 obviously would equal a yearly income of $12000. That's less than $6 hr for a full time job that pays you $1000 month (figuring 168 hours per month). By any stretch of the imagination that is far below a "working class" income. Someone making that kind of money probably has bigger things to worry about than whether or not the brand of AR rifle they want is "Tier 1".
Middle-class income is between 67 percent and 200 percent of the average median income. In 2016, middle-income households earned between $45,200 and $135,600 a year. That's according to the Pew Research Center. There's no official U.S. government definition of middle-class income.
As far as I know, most "working class" families probably fall into the "middle class" income range at one level or another. So, according to your "rule of thumb", at the low end of Pew's definition that means spending almost $3700 on an AR rifle. At the upper end it's well over $11,000 for a rifle. Even cutting those numbers in half if you just want to consider one person's income in a two-income household (split evenly) is a ridiculous amount for Joe Workingclass to spend on a rifle.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 13:42
Again if your happy with your BCA, Rock on. Doesn?t make it something it isn?t.
Neither does a random dude posting his dislike for a product on an internet forum.
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 13:48
The first rule of holes: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. ;)
There is nothing wrong with spending X amount on a rifle. The question is whether the way you got to that amount makes sense. Viewed from an entirely different angle. If we used this equation to guide people on how to buy a hunting rifle, every hunter would have 5 preference points before their first year hunting!
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 14:26
There is nothing wrong with spending X amount on a rifle.
No, there's not. But that wasn't the assertion.
Now you're gonna whine about members of other military branches kidding each other?
RUFKM?
And if you can't do basic math, I will question your intellect. $800 month translates to a yearly income of $9600. $1000 obviously would equal a yearly income of $12000. That's less than $6 hr for a full time job that pays you $1000 month (figuring 168 hours per month). By any stretch of the imagination that is far below a "working class" income. Someone making that kind of money probably has bigger things to worry about than whether or not the brand of AR rifle they want is "Tier 1".
As far as I know, most "working class" families probably fall into the "middle class" income range at one level or another. So, according to your "rule of thumb", at the low end of Pew's definition that means spending almost $3700 on an AR rifle. At the upper end it's well over $11,000 for a rifle. Even cutting those numbers in half if you just want to consider one person's income in a two-income household (split evenly) is a ridiculous amount for Joe Workingclass to spend on a rifle.
There is no way you are extrapolating any of what you just typed from what I posted in this thread. Read it again.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Neither does a random dude posting his dislike for a product on an internet forum.
Wut?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Anyone who believes there is some minimum threshold of spending required in life is a fool.
...Whether that be engagement wedding/rings (which mean nothing other than you're a victim of 80 year old marketing campaigns purposed to unload worthless stones)
...Nike shoes, or special name firearms, everything else is "junk".
...$60,000 OHV's
...$20,000 in gym equipment...
...$3,500 televisions...
etc.
All of these are red flags of character to me. What is impressive are people that don't spend, save, use their money most effectively for what they do need, and distance themselves from American materialistic culture no matter their income level. And yes, it is possible to be quite materialistic when it comes to guns, as it does every other thing. What impresses me: Saving for your childs future. Even more: Spending money and time for early-education success in children. What impresses me more: Saving and utilizing trusts to ensure generation-skipping success.
What doesn't impress me? Tons of money ejaculated on some hunk of materialistic shit of any type. And I think I'm not the only one. I'm not calling people out here, just a broad, general opinion and explanation for why a ton of people will never be impressed with what somebody buys or how much they spent on it.
PS: Why the things I list impress me is because they are in-opposite of the modern, hedonistic American, and they are very forward thinking. If you think you've had it rough, what and see what is in store for your children, grandchildren, or great, depending on your age.
Exactly. If your going to buy a gun for serious use, get something that you can pass on to your children or great grand children that will work for them. Not something that was so far out of spec to begin with it will be a wall hanger.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
I know family who make house hold 340k and have a tighter budget than a 79k house hold.
Applying disposal income is more reliable. In fact the calculation of inflation (price index ) on article seems to used Fisher index as general index. Gun price ALONE should be used for different price index to measure the inflation.
Sh1t the 486 with 256mb hard during early 90s was $3800.
So we should buy $10,000 pc now.........
77335
Again see Post #68.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 14:50
There is no way you are extrapolating any of what you just typed from what I posted in this thread. Read it again.
I don't need to read it again:
Since the 1700?s adjusted for all factors, a quality made Military or better grade Rifle has always cost the end user one to two months of average pay. Quality rifles can be had for less than that for someone making above average pay. For those making less, it would take them more discipline to save up for quality. Or accept less for less.
Or were you referring to what I said about you whining about some good-natured inter-service joking?
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 14:53
77335
Again see Post #68.
So you're gonna stick with that? Then define "average pay" since you obviously don't like the stats I posted.
77335
Again see Post #68.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Rule #1 No one is coming to save you. If anyone had a higher standard for a potential life saving piece of equipment it would be the 25 year old construction worker making 50K a year with a Wife and new baby at home to take care of. If a High Speed Low drag guys season fails him m, the mission can still ultimately succeed. If your Rifle fails you, you are probably dead.
Since the 1700?s adjusted for all factors, a quality made Military or better grade Rifle has always cost the end user one to two months of average pay. Quality rifles can be had for less than that for someone making above average pay. For those making less, it would take them more discipline to save up for quality. Or accept less for less.
For those making the it cost too much money, and this is just as good arguments. Stop being poor. Buy more money.
Above quote has flaws. So see post #306.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 14:59
Again if your happy with your BCA, Rock on. Doesn?t make it something it isn?t.
Neither does a random dude posting his dislike for a product on an internet forum.
Wut?
A guy posting a comment on an internet forum about how crappy a product is doesn't actually mean that product is crappy. It simply means he has a negative opinion of that product. That's it.
So you're gonna stick with that? Then define "average pay" since you obviously don't like the stats I posted.
I should have been using Median, not Average.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190210/608d135abdf2a8497c99380c5dedfdf2.jpg
Quality Military grade or better rifles have always cost the aforementioned figure. We are at a point and time where that figure is not always true. A good rifle can be had for much less. So anything less could be considered a bargain.
A laborer in 1873 working making $2.36/Day gross pay would have taken 22 days to earn the $50 to purchase a Winchester 1873. By the 1890?s prices had fallen on that rifle and wages had risen a bit.
Let?s compare that to someone making the Federal minimum wage today. Someone making $7.25/Hr working 40 hour weeks makes $290/Week gross. After 22 days of work they would have $928 gross.
Most of us on this forum are gainfully employed and making more than $7.25/Hour. Colorado?s minimum wage is up to $11.10/Hr!
Most reliable AR-15?s available today are between $800-$1,000. If that wasn?t true and they were between $200-$400, One would have to pay much less for one.
If the figure were $1,800-$2,000 that?s what someone would have to pay to get a reliable AR-15.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 15:23
A guy posting a comment on an internet forum about how crappy a product is doesn't actually mean that product is crappy. It simply means he has a negative opinion of that product. That's it.
If the OP had owned one i could understand
Another thing to pragmatically consider is the probability of future outcomes.
The probability of you, or your child finding use for your firearms from foreign invasion is about as close to impossible as you can come.
Foreign nations are not stupid, they've instead been investing tons of money and decades into internal division, because they don't stand to lose anything but money and time when we do the dirty work.
The probability of using your firearms on your fellow Americans in some kind of civil war is slightly more likely, but still low.
The probability of your AR's being useful during civil unrest is also relatively low. Concealed weapons are more useful in those situations in most cases, unless you or your child become the aggressor / miscreant. [As walking around with obvious long arms attracts too much attention].
Now, lets talk about the probability of needing a large reserve of money for retirement, survival, or otherwise. Guaran-fuckin'teed you need that, and you and your children would use that.
Lets also talk about your options with firearms vs. your options with estate:
AR's : very limited utility, and their utility is a very bad situation.
Estate: In a very bad situation, you can either afford to get-the-f-out of dodge (expatriate, for instance) and live well, peacefully. Or you're better equipped to meet whatever dynamic situation as it happens. AR type rifles very limited use tools. Maybe you need expensive flood protection, or advanced medical costs, or...or...or. Maybe you need to hire two dozen hands to help you out. AR doesn't help in those situations, money does.
Imagination is a fun thing, but the cold-dead-hands thing screams "unrealistic understanding of the future", it will never happen. I'd rather leave my kids with no firearms to inherit at all (and a hell of a lot of money to work with) than to leave them with twenty guns and a broke estate. Money = dynamic multi-tool that can be applied in 99% of situations. AR's = a keyed allen wrench useful only to get into your telephone box. The "blade of grass" thing is never happening. And if America ever comes to civil war - which it may - to be honest, there wouldn't be a "good" side of that to be on. If it came to that, I'd much rather my kids GTFO of the country entirely.
I?m not in anyway saying spend all your available income on firearms, or that your children made it ahead in life because you left them a rifle to share after your death.
As a brief aside storing up money for my children?s future seems a bit foolish due to market volatility and our dependence on fiat currency. Every man should work for his daily bread, not trying to give my kids a bunch of money, they should earn their own.
But this thread wasn?t started to discuss financial planning for the future. Sounds like you have a lot of knowledge and information on that subject. I may need to talk to you about that sometime.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
If the OP had owned one i could understand
Sample sizes of one rarely matter. How something is made, how it should be made, and the cost to make it IS important.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 15:39
Let?s compare that to someone making the Federal minimum wage today.
Now you're changing the rules yet again. We still don't have your definition of "average pay". Now we're down to using the federal minimum wage. Fail.
ChickNorris
02-10-2019, 15:51
PWTier whut now?
Perhaps the most tragic part of this thread is the complete lack of Tiers for Fears references or rhetorical questions about which rifle Tiers Morgan would own.
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 16:01
Since the 1700?s adjusted for all factors, a quality made Military or better grade Rifle has always cost the end user one to two months of average pay.
What is the source of that data? Because it sounds "made up" to me.
What does "military or better" grade even mean in this context? You mentioned a Winchester 1873 - was that rifle ever used by the military? IIRC the Army went from the muzzle-loading musket to a breech loading Trapdoor Springfield chambered in .45-70, and the next official military rifle was the Krag-Jorgensen in .30-40 Krag. There were Spencer and Sharps carbines used by various units during the Indian wars but many of those were private purchase items, as were the various Winchester guns carried by soldiers and scouts.
So I'm curious about where someone came up with a differentiation between "military grade" and "non military grade" weapons with regard to firearms used (and how much they cost) in the 19th century.
Furthermore, getting into the 20th century, I'm not aware that "military grade" weapons were ever sold to civilians - were they?
And no, I'm not talking about when the military was done with them and surplused them out or sold them at a loss through DCM, I'm talking about civilians being able to buy, from the manufacturer, a P17 Enfield, an M1903 Springfield or an M1 Garand or Carbine brand new at the same time when that weapon was being used by the armed forces.
Because unless they were, the notion of civilians buying "military grade" weapons and how much they were paying for those weapons is meaningless.
Which is why that sounds like a made up statistic to me.
The first rule of holes: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. ;)
The way I've always heard it: The first rule of holes: When you find yourself in one, put down the shovel.[/QUOTE]
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 16:04
Perhaps the most tragic part of this thread is the complete lack of Tiers for Fears references or rhetorical questions about which rifle Tiers Morgan would own.
There's a Tier in my Bier....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR31easm__c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR31easm__c
Biggest scam on earth.
Wife told me she'd rather have a gun than a piece of jewelry she's not going to wear. That's how she got a Sig 238 in pearlescent purple a few years ago for Valentines day! And a Tiffany blue Glock 43 a few years after that.
I'll drop $800 on a handgun because I know what an $800 handgun should look like.
I don't know jack about Diamonds and whenever I buy jewelry I always feel like a sucker.
Your wife is a keeper!!!
Scam indeed. I recall in the 2007-08 crisis people were putting money into diamonds during the initial panic. It took awhile for folks to realize there was no secondary market. But worse, the primary market price-fixes preventing any actual market supported pricing for diamonds.
And if someone offered you a diamond in exchange for something of value, what would you do? It takes years experience to be able to correctly grade a stone. You'd take it a jeweler who would offer you less than half of the same stones (cut/rating) that he has in his display.
The only redeeming value is a young man proving he has the ability to support a family by spending that much. But that kind of thinking was killed by Feminism.
Does a "military grade" rifle include an Enfield SMLE in .303 British purchased for $25 in the '60s?
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 16:42
I'd say so. But I feel sorry for the guy who bought it. Even in the 60s $25 wasn't a lot for a monthly salary.
[LOL]It wasn't about "tiers" either. This thread is more derailed than a German railroad line in May of 45'. The post whore thread has a more consistent topic.
It is like post where thread part 2.
Tiers n, n+1 ar
Average income
Price indicies
Elasticity of supply and price.
Vehicles
Diamond (price clarity cut perfection color)
What else did I miss? [Coffee]
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 16:59
What else did I miss? [Coffee]
We can't pick on Marines.
What else did I miss? [Coffee]
The original topic.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 17:06
For crying out loud...what WAS the original topic? I need to go back and read it.
Most reliable AR-15?s available today are between $800-$1,000.
Although you present this as some sort of fact, I?m going to go out on a limb and say this is just your opinion.
If you have links to sources with quality research to back this up then please post them so that we can all be better educated.
I don?t even come into this thread without wearing my boots for fear of how deep the bullshit might be.
Although you present this as some sort of fact, I?m going to go out on a limb and say this is just your opinion.
If you have links to sources with quality research to back this up then please post them so that we can all be better educated.
I don?t even come into this thread without wearing my boots for fear of how deep the bullshit might be.
Chest waders or a dry suit with scuba gear may be more appropriate.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 17:20
Sample sizes of one rarely matter. How something is made, how it should be made, and the cost to make it IS important.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Since i unblocked you to see where this has taken the original thread. I figured why not look around to see how the Tier 1 mfg fare. Since a tier 1 should be out of box perfect, correct?
https://bearingarms.com/beth-b/2017/05/31/daniel-defense-recall/
On Tuesday, Daniel Defense issued a safety recall related to a condition they identified with the Disconnector in the Fire Control Group. A handful of Daniel Defense firearms were impacted, although the gun manufacturer did not say which specific models.
Firearms purchased between April 1, 2016, and March 3, 2017, may fall into the safety recall.
http://looserounds.com/2018/05/15/larue-tactical-obr-7-62mm-rifle-troubles/
After shooting the rifle, it quickly became apparent that the issues the guns were having were not user error.
About every 3rd round would get stuck in the chamber. The extractor would rip through the rim in its effort to extract and then pick up a fresh round to chamber causing a double feed.
No mfg has a perfect track record. Reference Bushmaster in late 1999 when they were balls to the wall 24/7 maf. Trying to beat the 2000 CA AWB and Y2K panic.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 17:23
It is like post where thread part 2.
Tiers n, n+1 ar
Average income
Price indicies
Elasticity of supply and price.
Vehicles
Diamond (price clarity cut perfection color)
What else did I miss? [Coffee]
Blocking, making fun of, peers and something else
Of all the threads that turn to talking about illegals, my mind is blown that people forgetting them in a thread that was started to talk about them.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 17:57
BUILD THAT WALL!
BladesNBarrels
02-10-2019, 18:04
BUILD THAT WALL!
https://i.imgur.com/MKa8DjU.jpg
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 18:43
The post whore thread has a more consistent topic.
It really is positive to recognize a compliment.....thank you.
Now you're changing the rules yet again. We still don't have your definition of "average pay". Now we're down to using the federal minimum wage. Fail.
What the average person makes. What the median income is in our country. The middle amount. Not what Elon Musk makes, not what some 8 year old makes selling lemonade or picking up dog poop. Not changing the rules.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 19:08
Joe...are you ever going to let this go?
Honestly man, is it worth it?
What is the source of that data? Because it sounds "made up" to me.
What does "military or better" grade even mean in this context? You mentioned a Winchester 1873 - was that rifle ever used by the military? IIRC the Army went from the muzzle-loading musket to a breech loading Trapdoor Springfield chambered in .45-70, and the next official military rifle was the Krag-Jorgensen in .30-40 Krag. There were Spencer and Sharps carbines used by various units during the Indian wars but many of those were private purchase items, as were the various Winchester guns carried by soldiers and scouts.
So I'm curious about where someone came up with a differentiation between "military grade" and "non military grade" weapons with regard to firearms used (and how much they cost) in the 19th century.
Furthermore, getting into the 20th century, I'm not aware that "military grade" weapons were ever sold to civilians - were they?
And no, I'm not talking about when the military was done with them and surplused them out or sold them at a loss through DCM, I'm talking about civilians being able to buy, from the manufacturer, a P17 Enfield, an M1903 Springfield or an M1 Garand or Carbine brand new at the same time when that weapon was being used by the armed forces.
Because unless they were, the notion of civilians buying "military grade" weapons and how much they were paying for those weapons is meaningless.
Which is why that sounds like a made up statistic to me.
Ian McCollum of InRange TV and Forgotten Weapons Internet fame talked about it when asked what rifles cost today in relation to what they cost in the past. He?s fairly well regarded as knowing quite a bit about firearms, and having done some excellent research. But that is my source. As soon as I can find the link I?ll post it. It was his assertion, albeit probably not alone, that good rifles have almost always brought prices commensurate with 1-2 months of pay of the average worker.
A Military Grade or higher grade rifle.
A rifle that has been adopted by a structured first world military as fit for general issue within roughly the time it was released to market.
Better than Military Grade. I don?t think anyone would suggest that Custer was not outgunned by Sioux warriors that killed him at Greasy Grass. The lever action Spencer?s, Henry?s, and Winchester?s used were the better weapon than the Trapdoor Springfields used by Custers 7th Calvary Troopers.
Of course certain Military Rifles have not always been made available to civilians at the time of issue. But in 1910 you would certainly been able to procure a bolt action rifle chambered in .30-06 that would shoot as accurately and function as reliably as a U.S. Infantry or Calvaryman equipped with an 03 Springfield.
In many instances through History regular citizens have been better armed than the standing Armies of this great Republic of ours.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Does a "military grade" rifle include an Enfield SMLE in .303 British purchased for $25 in the '60s?
Not really. While it was still being used and issued throughout parts of Britain?s empire/former empire, it was no longer the standard service rifle of any of the first world Anglo armies, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. The FAL was.
Also $25 wouldn?t have been anything to sneeze at in 1960 would it have?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 19:35
Your whole point is that a quality rifle historically costs 1-2 months of the median monthly wage...
You posted a link that said the median income in the US is ~$58k/yr.
That means you think that a quality rifle must cost between $3600 and $7200... (That's accounting for post tax money, not pre-tax).
Several times you have backpedaled and said that this information is wrong, by asserting that you can buy good quality rifles for less than that. So which is it? You gonna cling to your factually incorrect internet dogma, or you gonna realize that you sound a little off base and admit as much?
But hey, if you think you have to spend $4k to have a "quality" rifle, I have a few that I will sell you right now. Name brand, recognized quality manufacturers, etc...
Although you present this as some sort of fact, I?m going to go out on a limb and say this is just your opinion.
If you have links to sources with quality research to back this up then please post them so that we can all be better educated.
I don?t even come into this thread without wearing my boots for fear of how deep the bullshit might be.
I posted a link to a video earlier that touched on the subject. Guy from SOLGW talking about Table Scrap guns and the cost of manufacturing an AR-15.
AR-15?s that fit or exceed this price range, and aside from not having that third pinhole and not having a Military contract in this country, makes/manufactures and then sells to the general public rifles that come as close as is possible to the technical data package for the M4A1 Carbine or URGI.
BCM
Colt
DD
FN
Geissele
Hodge
KAC
LMT
SOLGW
Sionics
I?m sure there are others, these are just the ones off the top my head. These companies produce complete rifles and components that meet or exceed military specs or liability and functionality.
https://youtu.be/JnWqNSD9eEs
https://youtu.be/FhhQ9sEac6o
https://youtu.be/SyAbQZbVjHk
For those not familiar with Will Larson or what he does here?s a little background info on him.
https://youtu.be/poNNJcIWk9Y
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Since i unblocked you to see where this has taken the original thread. I figured why not look around to see how the Tier 1 mfg fare. Since a tier 1 should be out of box perfect, correct?
https://bearingarms.com/beth-b/2017/05/31/daniel-defense-recall/
On Tuesday, Daniel Defense issued a safety recall related to a condition they identified with the Disconnector in the Fire Control Group. A handful of Daniel Defense firearms were impacted, although the gun manufacturer did not say which specific models.
Firearms purchased between April 1, 2016, and March 3, 2017, may fall into the safety recall.
http://looserounds.com/2018/05/15/larue-tactical-obr-7-62mm-rifle-troubles/
After shooting the rifle, it quickly became apparent that the issues the guns were having were not user error.
About every 3rd round would get stuck in the chamber. The extractor would rip through the rim in its effort to extract and then pick up a fresh round to chamber causing a double feed.
No mfg has a perfect track record. Reference Bushmaster in late 1999 when they were balls to the wall 24/7 maf. Trying to beat the 2000 CA AWB and Y2K panic.
Again you are talking about sample sizes of one. Of course no manufacture has a perfect track record, all manufactures are staffed by humans and humans are fallible creatures. Tooling can break down and wear down, the best processes in the world can be ignored or forgotten in an instant.
I don?t expect perfection from anything on earth but when it comes to rifles I look for consistency. This is about as good as any of us can do. If your BCA components or complete rifle?s work as well as a nicer rifle I?m happy for you, you rolled the dice and won. I however hate gambling and if I?m going to have to gamble I like better odds.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Joe...are you ever going to let this go?
Honestly man, is it worth it?
Probably not. I hate misinformation, and it literally gets me angry that there are manufacturers selling Rifles to people who may eventually have to use those products to defend themselves or the lives of others and have been tricked or fooled into thinking that those Rifles are just as good when they are not.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Your whole point is that a quality rifle historically costs 1-2 months of the median monthly wage...
You posted a link that said the median income in the US is ~$58k/yr.
That means you think that a quality rifle must cost between $3600 and $7200... (That's accounting for post tax money, not pre-tax).
Several times you have backpedaled and said that this information is wrong, by asserting that you can buy good quality rifles for less than that. So which is it? You gonna cling to your factually incorrect internet dogma, or you gonna realize that you sound a little off base and admit as much?
But hey, if you think you have to spend $4k to have a "quality" rifle, I have a few that I will sell you right now. Name brand, recognized quality manufacturers, etc...
That is not what I think. I did not pay anywhere close to a month of my salary to purchase a reliable and functioning AR 15.
Again it is a point of comparison when people say that a $500 rifle is as good as a higher-priced rifle to point to the fact that rifles have traditionally not been cheap, if you wanted a good reliable military grade one anyways and that we are living in a time where good functioning reliable military grade rifles are available for ridiculously low prices.
There are people suggesting that a $500 rifle is just as good as a $1000 rifle that was the entire reason for bringing up the 1 to 2 months of salary for a decent rifle.
I do understand why you might be confused as to what I think about this matter as between posting back-and-forth with 10 of you guys I have made points they have not always coalesced well with other posts. This subject matter really deserves a book and not a few posts here or there.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Crap......I'm out a popcorn! I'll have to tune back in after I restock.
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 20:03
Come back in June....he'll still be talking about it.
This thread is sponsored by:
Noveske
BCM
Daniel's Defense
LMT
LWRC
Larue
Knights
POF
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 20:07
There are people suggesting that a $500 rifle is just as good as a $1000 rifle that was the entire reason for bringing up the 1 to 2 months of salary for a decent rifle.
Funny thing happened at the range today. The R.O said, after i ran 50 rounds through a 64 era winchester lever action 22. When i said looks like this one works best with CCI's. He said, you think? That 22 of yours with iron sights shoots as accurate as my AR with a Trijicon does.
It's as much, if not more the tool behind the tool . As it is the tool.
"Come back in June....he'll still be talking about it."
It'll take me 6 months to catch-up. Just wondering....is Boy Scout popcorn considered tier 1.....and how many month's pay should I expect to pay for it? Could anyone use a new shovel while I'm out shopping? Please don't bother answering that.
BUILD THAT WALL!
As long as it's a Tier 1 wall.
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 20:10
June is a tier 1 month though. February is like tier 6 if being generous.
Funny thing happened at the range today. The R.O said, after i ran 50 rounds through a 64 era winchester lever action 22. When i said looks like this one works best with CCI's. He said, you think? That 22 of yours with iron sights shoots as accurate as my AR with a Trijicon does.
It's as much, if not more the tool behind the tool . As it is the tool.
For accuracy and use? 100% agree. It doesn?t matter how much you spent on a rifle, if you can?t shoot or use it well.
But for reliability? Aside from abuse and neglect in the end users part, it is 100% the manufacturers responsibility to produce a boringly reliable product.
It is up to the end user to double check in case he got a Monday/Friday 5 O? Clock Rifle and then replace parts as needed.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
June is a tier 1 month though. February is like tier 6 if being generous.
Slooow clap. When are you performing at the next stand up open mic again?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 20:27
Slooow clap. When are you performing at the next stand up open mic again?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
https://youtu.be/JW68goC4_es
Thank you, I'll be here......forever. :)
Martinjmpr
02-10-2019, 20:29
Ian McCollum of InRange TV and Forgotten Weapons Internet fame talked about it when asked what rifles cost today in relation to what they cost in the past. He?s fairly well regarded as knowing quite a bit about firearms, and having done some excellent research. But that is my source. As soon as I can find the link I?ll post it. It was his assertion, albeit probably not alone, that good rifles have almost always brought prices commensurate with 1-2 months of pay of the average worker.
A Military Grade or higher grade rifle.
A rifle that has been adopted by a structured first world military as fit for general issue within roughly the time it was released to market.
It sounds suspiciously made up to me among other things because the whole idea of civilians owning "military type" or even "military grade" weapons (whatever that means) is a relatively recent one anyway.
By my own research (and personal recollection), a quality semi auto rifle in .30-06 caliber (Remington 742) could be purchased in the mid 1960's for around $150.
Per the Dept. of Commerce statistics, median annual wages in 1965 were around $5800 which works out to an hourly rate of $2.79. Even at $2.79/hr the cost of that $150 rifle amounts to 54 hours of work, or less than a week and a half of regular wages.
For a professional worker someone with a valuable skill or a professional education, making, say, $8.00/hr $16.5k/yr) that represents less than 20 hours of pay - half a week.
Even going back to the 1920s, where average annual earnings in all industries was $1407, which would work out to a month's salary being $117.25, "name brand" rifles could be purchased for around $20, or the equivalent of less than a week's gross pay.
So to sum up, the notion that a "quality" rifle costs a months pay for anyone other than a burger flipper is pure nonsense for current economic conditions and it was certainly nonsense back in the 1960s and earlier.
Military grade: A rifle that meats the absolute minimum specs for ,construction,accuracy, and reliability, at the lowest cost. It is only better if the specs require it. In this day and age, CNC machining makes the min/max tolerance specs almost utterly irrelevant, when dimensions can be controlled to 1/10000th of an inch. Yes, a "premium" rifle will have tighter than required tolerances, but that doesn't necessarily mean more accurate in practice, nor more reliable. Honestly, I feel better about the attention to detail on my "bubba built kitchen table build" than I do about something that was assembled by 20 guys at the rate of 100 an hour, because I know I spent the time to do it right. I'm my own QC/QA, and there's no excuses.
Did anyone react this way the last time ICE raided a Swift meat packing plant?
Roll your dice, move your mice. Why would anyone let another person tell them how to spend their own money. If you didn't steal it, spend it however you deem appropriate. Price may or may not have any relationship to quality. The list of examples is pretty extensive.
Why would anyone let another person tell them how to spend their own money.
Apparently this whole thread was started when the government told the owner of a small firearms business he couldn't spend his money on cheap labor.
Apparently this whole thread was started when the government told the owner of a small firearms business he couldn't spend his money on cheap labor.
Well, according to the government, it never was our money to begin with. They printed it and get to take what they feel is appropriate and will send people with guns to collect their vig when they choose. Apparently, we are all cheap labor for someone.
I feel like cheap labor almost every day.
Military grade: A rifle that meats the absolute minimum specs for ,construction,accuracy, and reliability, at the lowest cost. It is only better if the specs require it. In this day and age, CNC machining makes the min/max tolerance specs almost utterly irrelevant, when dimensions can be controlled to 1/10000th of an inch. Yes, a "premium" rifle will have tighter than required tolerances, but that doesn't necessarily mean more accurate in practice, nor more reliable. Honestly, I feel better about the attention to detail on my "bubba built kitchen table build" than I do about something that was assembled by 20 guys at the rate of 100 an hour, because I know I spent the time to do it right. I'm my own QC/QA, and there's no excuses.
You are forgetting a few very important points when it comes to Mil-Spec and the finished product.
Those minimum specs also require the item to work, and work in a variety of environments.
Other key things when it comes to getting something that works are:
Material selection.
Tool upkeep. Bits need changed, Tool paths recalibrated, and machines cleaned and serviced.
The processes used to complete a given task.
And Humans still do the following:
Checks between stages of production.
Parts Assembly.
Final Assembly.
Functions check.
Test Fire.
If you are building it yourself and understand why you?re doing what you?re doing, (Armorers course graduate or decades of experience doing it the right ways), using good reliable components and checking for common corners cut by parts suppliers, things like cheap Gas key bolts, staked gas key bolts and castle nuts, and are using a torque wrench correctly, then that?s awesome.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
blacklabel
02-10-2019, 21:29
I'm just here for the Tier 1 post whore thread. And noticed Joe's title and about died.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 21:31
Apparently this whole thread was started when the government told the owner of a small firearms business he couldn't spend his money on cheap labor.
You taking joke lessons from stu ?
I'm just here for the Tier 1 post whore thread. And noticed Joe's title and about died.
Apparently having some experience using rifles professionally is something to be discredited, if enough people?s feathers get ruffled with unpopular information.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 21:44
As long as it's a Tier 1 wall.
Would a simple mil-spec wall do?
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 21:46
Apparently having some experience using rifles professionally is something to be discredited, if enough people?s feathers get ruffled with unpopular information.
That's not what's going on here...
Your attitude of discrediting a lot of folks real world experience because they don't adhere to your ideals (whether you actually do or don't isn't clear yet) is where you're getting the friction.
Real world experience trumps interweb guruz made up thoughts on what a "quality military type rifle" should cost.
No one is discrediting your service. No one is saying that you can't have your own opinion.
Your "looking down the nose" attitude of superiority is what's got people continuing this thread.
hurley842002
02-10-2019, 21:49
That's not what's going on here...
Your attitude of discrediting a lot of folks real world experience because they don't adhere to your ideals (whether you actually do or don't isn't clear yet) is where you're getting the friction.
Real world experience trumps interweb guruz made up thoughts on what a "quality military type rifle" should cost.
No one is discrediting your service. No one is saying that you can't have your own opinion.
Your "looking down the nose" attitude of superiority is what's got people continuing this thread.Pretty much exactly what I was thinking, but more eloquently delivered than I would have.
Would a simple mil-spec wall do?
Depends on the tolerances, tooling, and inspections.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 21:57
Apparently having some experience using rifles professionally is something to be discredited, if enough people?s feathers get ruffled with unpopular information.
My feathers aren't ruffled in the slightest. I'm actually having a bit of fun with this. It's intriguing to see what you're gonna post next in an attempt to support your arguments.
And, I got news for ya, Skippy. There are a lot of people posting on this site and in this thread with a lot more gun experience in general, and AR-15 experience specifically, than you've got.
I'll have you know I got my first USAF Marksmanship Ribbon in 1979 using a genuine, USGI issued, mil-spec, Air Force Tier 1, M16A1 complete with armorer installed .22LR conversion kit...on a little over $400 month.
Not to mention some of us were having online arguments when you were probably still filling your diapers.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 21:58
Depends on the tolerances, tooling, and inspections.
Well, I'll for sure have an engineer give it a once over.
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 21:59
You are forgetting a few very important points when it comes to Mil-Spec and the finished product.
Those minimum specs also require the item to work, and work in a variety of environments.
Other key things when it comes to getting something that works are:
Material selection.
Tool upkeep. Bits need changed, Tool paths recalibrated, and machines cleaned and serviced.
The processes used to complete a given task.
And Humans still do the following:
Checks between stages of production.
Parts Assembly.
Final Assembly.
Functions check.
Test Fire.
If you are building it yourself and understand why you?re doing what you?re doing, (Armorers course graduate or decades of experience doing it the right ways), using good reliable components and checking for common corners cut by parts suppliers, things like cheap Gas key bolts, staked gas key bolts and castle nuts, and are using a torque wrench correctly, then that?s awesome.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Dude...
Really???
Mil-Spec doesn't make something better. Period. End of Story.
It's just a spec. Generally not even that tight of a spec.
Material selection? Really? You think there is some proprietary sauce materials in your high dollar guns that isn't in the budget world???? Wrong. Metallurgy isn't that difficult, and the cat is out of the bag on what makes good components for AR-15's and what doesn't...
Tool upkeep? You think BCA is over there using 2nd hand end mills? LOL.
Tool Paths need recalibrated? And you asked Kowalski when he was performing at the stand up comedy place??? Machines might need recalibrated. Tool Paths? Try again...
Machines need cleaned and serviced? What makes you think BCA had their guys working in an ever growing pile of chips?
Humans are involved in building your high dollar rifles too... Congratulations on pointing out the obvious.
Nothing you said proves that you have to spend a whole bunch of money on a "quality military type rifle" to get something that's going to work, and work well.
A $500 rifle used to be a $1000 rifle a couple of years ago. Nothing changed except the political landscape.
BushMasterBoy
02-10-2019, 22:01
My opinion is the systems we build ourselves are far superior to any factory product. That personal touch cannot be replicated on any factory floor. I need a vacation, somewhere quiet, warm & peaceful.
Bailey Guns
02-10-2019, 22:17
I can't wait to come back to this thread in the morning. I may not be able to sleep!
Now if rifles were only made of wood, then I'd only own JohnnyEgo rifles.
That's not what's going on here...
Your attitude of discrediting a lot of folks real world experience because they don't adhere to your ideals (whether you actually do or don't isn't clear yet) is where you're getting the friction.
Real world experience trumps interweb guruz made up thoughts on what a "quality military type rifle" should cost.
No one is discrediting your service. No one is saying that you can't have your own opinion.
Your "looking down the nose" attitude of superiority is what's got people continuing this thread.
My ideals are would I trust something to save the lives of myself or my family if I needed it to.
What in your estimation would I have to do in order to emphatically demonstrate that a BCA is not the equivalent of a Mil-Spec or better Rifle? How many BCA parts or Rifle?s would I have to buy and test them in what way for me to give an opinion that you and others would believe?
As far as discrediting Real World Experience.
No one here has stated how they have proved their BCA is the equivalent of an M4A1, either is quality of parts, assembly, or reliability.
But members here have stated that their BCA Rifle is:
Just as accurate.
Fired it a few hundred times with flawless results.
Just as good as anything else.
These are not indicators of real world experience. They are demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding about what to look for in a good rifle.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Scanker19
02-10-2019, 22:42
I go to the gun show today, and this thread goes apeshit. My faith in the military?s selection process of equipment may not be as romantic as some. I?d be willing to bet it?s more of a political (read kickbacks) decision. Does FN make a better rifle, or a cheaper one?
We can't pick on Marines.
They say it?s easy to make fun of Marines, but it?s isn?t. You?ve............. really have to explain it to them.
Dude...
Really???
Mil-Spec doesn't make something better. Period. End of Story.
It's just a spec. Generally not even that tight of a spec.
Material selection? Really? You think there is some proprietary sauce materials in your high dollar guns that isn't in the budget world???? Wrong. Metallurgy isn't that difficult, and the cat is out of the bag on what makes good components for AR-15's and what doesn't...
Tool upkeep? You think BCA is over there using 2nd hand end mills? LOL.
Tool Paths need recalibrated? And you asked Kowalski when he was performing at the stand up comedy place??? Machines might need recalibrated. Tool Paths? Try again...
Machines need cleaned and serviced? What makes you think BCA had their guys working in an ever growing pile of chips?
Humans are involved in building your high dollar rifles too... Congratulations on pointing out the obvious.
Nothing you said proves that you have to spend a whole bunch of money on a "quality military type rifle" to get something that's going to work, and work well.
Mil-Spec is a starting point.
If looking at considerations for use where reliability is at a premium looser tolerances aren?t necessarily a bad thing.
BCA uses 9130 bolts as opposed to Carpenter 158 steel. They only have two chrome lined barrels listed on their website. I?m going to go out on a limb here and suggest they probably are not using grade 8 hardened steel gas key bolts that are properly staked into place in mist if not all of their BCG?s.
Metallurgy isn?t that difficult, but for some companies buying large orders of in spec metal parts is.
My bad on the Tool paths. Thanks for educating me.
I?m suggesting that BCA cuts corners wherever possible to bring to market a complete rifle for $350 - $550.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Serious question. Under what circumstances will a non-chrome lined barrel create a failure?
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 22:55
I've been on lots of boards for years, seen a lot of shit.....I've never seen this at this level. Goddam.
Most certainly, a new bar has been set......and somehow I really feel that it's not done rising.
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 22:55
My ideals are would I trust something to save the lives of myself or my family if I needed it to.
This is a completely reasonable point of view. If you require a DD, Colt, BCM, etc, that's fine. No one here is arguing with you on this comment.
What in your estimation would I have to do in order to emphatically demonstrate that a BCA is not the equivalent of a Mil-Spec or better Rifle? How many BCA parts or Rifle?s would I have to buy and test them in what way for me to give an opinion that you and others would believe?
You have to find more evidence of failure than a single digit handful of cases to discredit a manufacturer. As has been shown, even high end manufacturers such as DD have had recalls that effect more rifles than that. I personally have received rifles from a mil-contract manufacturer that I expect you would trust that had egregious QC failures in parts and assembly.
As far as discrediting Real World Experience.
No one here has stated how they have proved their BCA is the equivalent of an M4A1, either is quality of parts, assembly, or reliability.
But members here have stated that their BCA Rifle is:
Just as accurate.
Fired it a few hundred times with flawless results.
Just as good as anything else.
As I have read the thread, you are focused on BCA, but you keep generalizing all low cost AR-15 rifles as sub-par rifles, which isn't the case. I don't personally own a BCA rifle, however I have fired them, and from my limited experience they work just fine. I do have other brands of low cost rifles, and I can tell you that they shoot as accurately as any mil-spec rifle (because let's be honest, mil-spec isn't about accuracy. They want minute of human.) and they have been run hard through carbine classes and had thousands of rounds run in a weekend without significant failures of any kind.
I agree, some of the folks that will chime in on the internet and say "my xxx is as good as your high dollar YYY" don't understand what is meant by reliability. I, however, think you are sorely underestimating the number of folks on this board that shoot a significant amount, procure training, and run their gear hard. These are the people that are making a point of challenging your points.
These are not indicators of real world experience. They are demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding about what to look for in a good rifle.
How many rounds do you require? I've had this discussion with folks many a time. How many rounds do you need to know that your rifle/pistol is going to run reliably? This is a hugely subjective issue, and there is no good answer. Most won't trust a gun, no matter the manufacturer, straight out of the box, which I believe is prudent. EVERY manufacturer has bad days.
So is it 200 rounds? If I have a firearm that can run for 200 rounds without issue, I'm good with it.
What if someone thinks is 5000 rounds? What about wear items? Once those are replaced, you have a now unknown quantity and must repeat your break in rifle again, and can never trust it.
Then we can bring in the usual assumption that a known working gun is "guaranteed" to fail in the heat of "situation x". I've seen people choose not to carry a handgun because someone told them "it could fail when you need it". But, this is true of ANY mechanical contrivance.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
And this just continues to show that you believe yourself to be better than anyone with a budget AR, and will cause this thread to continue to be a sh!t show... Well done...
Chrome lining is a durability feature, particularly with corrosive primers. As far as accuracy, I'm not aware of ANY match grade barrels that use it.
Most certainly, a new bar has been set......and somehow I really feel that it's not done rising.
...or sinking.
Chrome lining is a durability feature, particularly with corrosive primers. As far as accuracy, I'm not aware of ANY match grade barrels that use it.
I was a little turned off by this until I educated myself. I now own two higher end ss barrels that are not chromed, one in 5.56 and one in 7.62. Never a problem with either. Not sure how it will impact wear/lifespan.
I also only shoot brass cased ammo.
Serious question. Under what circumstances will a non-chrome lined barrel create a failure?
Sustained fire, over a period of time, and you start to see accuracy loss from barrel wear in the throat and such due to the heat from strings of fire. CL'ing prevents the rate of this wear, but most would never see it anyway if they are just out plinking and doing slower strings. It's only an issue if you are going to be mag dumping, such as in a real firefight that is sustained.
Corrosion resistance - CL'ing assists in prevention of corrosion.
Slightly less accurate according to most folks. However, the accuracy difference is not noticeable unless you're treating it like an SPR or something; my spikes 14.5" CL blah blah blah (made by FN) was getting .7-.9 MOA w/ hornady steel match 75gr (bipod w/ rear bag from ground, wearing a 4-14x for accuracy testing) whereas my 18" LW gets .5-.7 (when I'm not being retarded). In which case, going after accuracy, it's more likely one would go with a higher end barrel and not be mag dumping anyway.
For 99.9% of users, CL is unnecessary for reason 1. But wait, there's more!
For reason 2, it could be a selling factor depending on humidity where one is, or if they have a bunch of corrosively primed ammo.
Reason 3 is really here nor there once one gets into more likely positions.
Chrome lining is a durability feature, particularly with corrosive primers. As far as accuracy, I'm not aware of ANY match grade barrels that use it.
That's the impression that I was under. It seems like one would have to go out of their way to only shoot corrosive primers, then never maintain their rifle for years, before that particular situation could even remotely cause a failure. Right?
BCA uses 9130 bolts as opposed to Carpenter 158 steel.
They aren?t the only ones using 9130 for their bolts. I won?t give you my opinion because you likely aren?t a good listener anyways. I will say that even the original ?mil spec? to use the 158 steel wasn?t because it was the absolutel best material you could use for a bolt. It was the best material at the price points that the government wanted to pay at that time.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 23:15
Years ago there was the (for lack of a better title) I could have made that shot, thread.
Resulting in a casual match, where forum members with their carry pistol, took shots out to IIRC 75? yards. Called the Put Up or Shut UP shoot.
Sadly the one who could have taken that shot, failed to make the match. Claiming [ROFL1] prior commitments[UZI]
Seems to me There should be another casual shoot
Where those Tier 1 (OK) over $800 and gunsmith verified go against the low budget builds. Optics should be used as that's what one of the T-1 qualifiers is.
Let's say steel plates set from 25 - 100 yds, 4 total
5 rds per plate, loaded in 20 rd mags Total of 100 rounds per shooter
Next up is the endurance test. 500 rounds shot in to a berm / backstop In 100 rd increments .
Then 5-30 rd mags doing mag dumps.
Last FOF. 250 rds any rate of fire you choose.
Burn up 1k in ammo for sheets n giggles. With a side challenge of................................................ ....................... 5 rounds on a 9" paper plate to close out the event
You'll be given extra points for the following:
Extra points if you have the QC sheet from the optic you run.
Deduct having to shoot 100 rounds IF your carbine gets through the steel plate challenge w/out blowing up.
For every 100 rounds after that you get a participation trophy
Some lucky shooter who takes home the grand prize (probably a BCA complete upper) will also have the honor of
My Crappy Budget Build Survived a T-1 Challenge, moniker for 6 months. Pending mod review of the match results.
The LOSER GETS..................stuck taking me to the airport.
I'll supply the upper assy.
Why not, as a sub $500 rifle will only dent my SSDI check by a few months.
I thought the chrome lining was because of issues when the rifle was first put into service in Vietnam? Apparently the humid climate combined with a general lack of maintenance was causing corrosion which lead to numerous malfunctions.
That's the impression that I was under. It seems like one would have to go out of their way to only shoot corrosive primers, then never maintain their rifle for years, before that particular situation could even remotely cause a failure. Right?
Corrosive primers are extremely rare and getting rarer. Humidity and/or chemical corrosion from environmental sources (salt water, for instance) would be a bigger concern. As mentioned CL barrels have a longer life under extreme usage, such as extended full auto usage, or when many thousands of rounds are expected to be fired during a rifle's lifespan.
Years ago there was the (for lack of a better title) I could have made that shot, thread.
Resulting in a casual match, where forum members with their carry pistol, took shots out to IIRC 75? yards. Called the Put Up or Shut UP shoot.
Sadly the one who could have taken that shot, failed to make the match. Claiming [ROFL1] prior commitments[UZI]
Seems to me There should be another casual shoot
Where those Tier 1 (OK) over $800 and gunsmith verified go against the low budget builds. Optics should be used as that's what one of the T-1 qualifiers is. Extra points if you have the QC sheet from the optic you run.
Let's say steel plates set from 25 - 100 yds, 4 total
5 rds per plate, loaded in 20 rd mags Total of 100 rounds per shooter
Next up is the endurance test. 500 rounds shot in to a berm / backstop In 100 rd increments .
Then 5-30 rd mags doing mag dumps.
Last FOF. 250 rds any rate of fire you choose.
Burn up 1k in ammo for sheets n giggles.
Only if you, Bailey Guns, Wulf202, and 68 Charger can make it.
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 23:25
Mil-Spec is a starting point.
If looking at considerations for use where reliability is at a premium looser tolerances aren?t necessarily a bad thing.
I'll agree to both of those points.
I probably should have said that Mil-Spec isn't even that good of a spec, since it is a spec that is then used for a race to the bottom in pricing. You want to talk about cutting corners...
BCA uses 9130 bolts as opposed to Carpenter 158 steel.
So?
This shows your prejudice against anything "not mil-spec"...
9130 is a newer alloy that is superior to C-158. The selection of C-158 is a hold over from a long time ago. It was the best option at the time that fit the budget. Now? Not so much.
They only have two chrome lined barrels listed on their website.
Ah, so you're worried about barrel life on a registered NFA lower?
Chrome lined doesn't do much unless you are running FA frequently...
I?m going to go out on a limb here and suggest they probably are not using grade 8 hardened steel gas key bolts that are properly staked into place in mist if not all of their BCG?s.
So, you are making an assumption here, which may or may not be accurate.
Grade 8 is important because of the forces at work? No.
Grade 8 is likely just another hold over from Mil-Spec that isn't required.
I've seen plenty of Colt carriers that had almost no staking, but those are mil-spec, so they must be okay per your logic.
Metallurgy isn?t that difficult, but for some companies buying large orders of in spec metal parts is.
This is more baseless assumption on your part.
Based on your comments in this thread, it's easy to see that you don't trust BCA/Budget parts because they are cheaper than DD/High Dollar parts. This doesn't take into account economies of scale. When you buy more items, you can leverage significantly better pricing. I will agree that DD/etc probably inspect at a higher level, but they are also charging a premium. DD is NOT Mil-spec.
My bad on the Tool paths. Thanks for educating me.
We can all learn something from one another.
I?m suggesting that BCA cuts corners wherever possible to bring to market a complete rifle for $350 - $550.
Perhaps, but as has been stated before in this thread, the price of AR's has dropped across the board, unless you're buying boutique high end stuff (DD/etc) where they are charging for their name.
The general consensus on the BCA parts is that they aren't top notch, but they work, and we've agreed that mil-spec isn't top notch.
Anyway...
This is a completely reasonable point of view. If you require a DD, Colt, BCM, etc, that's fine. No one here is arguing with you on this comment.
You have to find more evidence of failure than a single digit handful of cases to discredit a manufacturer. As has been shown, even high end manufacturers such as DD have had recalls that effect more rifles than that. I personally have received rifles from a mil-contract manufacturer that I expect you would trust that had egregious QC failures in parts and assembly.
Noted.
As I have read the thread, you are focused on BCA, but you keep generalizing all low cost AR-15 rifles as sub-par rifles, which isn't the case. I don't personally own a BCA rifle, however I have fired them, and from my limited experience they work just fine. I do have other brands of low cost rifles, and I can tell you that they shoot as accurately as any mil-spec rifle (because let's be honest, mil-spec isn't about accuracy. They want minute of human.) and they have been run hard through carbine classes and had thousands of rounds run in a weekend without significant failures of any kind.
I should have stayed on point taking BCA to task. Not all budget AR?s are the same.
4MOA isn?t Minute of human until you get out to a ridiculously long range.
I agree, some of the folks that will chime in on the internet and say "my xxx is as good as your high dollar YYY" don't understand what is meant by reliability. I, however, think you are sorely underestimating the number of folks on this board that shoot a significant amount, procure training, and run their gear hard. These are the people that are making a point of challenging your points.
I must be.
How many rounds do you require? I've had this discussion with folks many a time. How many rounds do you need to know that your rifle/pistol is going to run reliably? This is a hugely subjective issue, and there is no good answer. Most won't trust a gun, no matter the manufacturer, straight out of the box, which I believe is prudent. EVERY manufacturer has bad days.
So is it 200 rounds? If I have a firearm that can run for 200 rounds without issue, I'm good with it.
Around 1,000 or so. But even then I?m a skeptic. Which is why I check it before I even run a round through it. And when I fire it, I do it in a way. Loose one handed grip, one round in a magazine. Does the bolt lock to the rear? Fire a magazine of 10 rounds. Does it lock open? Where do the ejected cases go? What condition is the brass in? Then run the piss out of it, lube it, wash rinse repeat.
What if someone thinks is 5000 rounds? What about wear items? Once those are replaced, you have a now unknown quantity and must repeat your break in rifle again, and can never trust it.
As long as the barrel, chamber, and receiver set is still serviceable than changing out springs, catches, pins, and other small parts when necessary the rifle will run until it won?t.
Upwards of 30,000 rounds. That?s way more money than buying a couple BCA rifles.
Then we can bring in the usual assumption that a known working gun is "guaranteed" to fail in the heat of "situation x". I've seen people choose not to carry a handgun because someone told them "it could fail when you need it". But, this is true of ANY mechanical contrivance.
Agreed.
And this just continues to show that you believe yourself to be better than anyone with a budget AR, and will cause this thread to continue to be a sh!t show... Well done...
I do not believe myself to be better. I believe some types of equipment to be better than others. That is completely different distinction to make.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
OtterbatHellcat
02-10-2019, 23:30
Only if you, Bailey Guns, Wulf202, and 68 Charger can make it.
You meant Joe as well, right?
They aren?t the only ones using 9130 for their bolts. I won?t give you my opinion because you likely aren?t a good listener anyways. I will say that even the original ?mil spec? to use the 158 steel wasn?t because it was the absolutel best material you could use for a bolt. It was the best material at the price points that the government wanted to pay at that time.
Did I strike you as a poor listener when we meant in person Ray?
There are a wide variety of folks using 9130 bolts, some of them are better than others.
However C 158 has numerous advantage over 9130. 9130 is often chosen because it?s easier and generally less expensive to come by.
A poorly finished and machined C 158 bolt would be inferior to a good quality 9130 bolt.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Grant H.
02-10-2019, 23:31
Deduct having to shoot 100 rounds IF your carbine gets through the steel plate challenge w/out blowing up.
For every 100 rounds after that you get a participation trophy
Like KA-Boom blow up? Missing fingers and the like?
We're gonna need a shit load of participation trophies...
I'm in for it though...
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 23:36
Mil-Spec is a starting point.
If looking at considerations for use where reliability is at a premium looser tolerances aren?t necessarily a bad thing.
BCA uses 9130 bolts as opposed to Carpenter 158 steel. They only have two chrome lined barrels listed on their website. I?m going to go out on a limb here and suggest they probably are not using grade 8 hardened steel gas key bolts that are properly staked into place in mist if not all of their BCG?s.
Metallurgy isn?t that difficult, but for some companies buying large orders of in spec metal parts is.
My bad on the Tool paths. Thanks for educating me.
I?m suggesting that BCA cuts corners wherever possible to bring to market a complete rifle for $350 - $550.
Amazing what the interwebz will find
https://www.gunmann.com/ar-15-bolt-carrier-group/
What to Look for in a Bolt Carrier Group?
Since the bolt carrier is the primary functioning part of an AR-15, it should be flawlessly perfect to deliver optimum performance. There are several important factors you must consider before choosing a BCG for your AR-15 rifle.
Bolt Material
The first and foremost thing to consider is the material. BCGs are generally made of steel, although aluminum, titanium and hybrid models are also available on the market.
The steel is further classified into different classes, but the most common ones for manufacturing BCGs are 9310, and Carpenter 158 Steel.
The BCG faces a lot of heat and stress, and these steel variants fit the job perfectly well. They are easy to machine and widely available. The 9310 Steel is tough and durable and is being widely used by manufacturers these days for BCGs.
https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/
Bolt
Caliber: 5.56 NATO | 223 Rem | 223 Wylde
Bolt Material: 158 C | 9310 Steel
My feathers aren't ruffled in the slightest. I'm actually having a bit of fun with this. It's intriguing to see what you're gonna post next in an attempt to support your arguments.
And, I got news for ya, Skippy. There are a lot of people posting on this site and in this thread with a lot more gun experience in general, and AR-15 experience specifically, than you've got.
I'll have you know I got my first USAF Marksmanship Ribbon in 1979 using a genuine, USGI issued, mil-spec, Air Force Tier 1, M16A1 complete with armorer installed .22LR conversion kit...on a little over $400 month.
Not to mention some of us were having online arguments when you were probably still filling your diapers.
Who is skippy? Or would I have had to be born in your era to get that reference?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 23:47
Like KA-Boom blow up? Missing fingers and the like?
We're gonna need a shit load of participation trophies...
I'm in for it though...
Hey what ever it takes to WIN! .
YOU GET A TROPHY >
YOU GET A TROPHY >
EVERYONE get a Trophy
Years ago there was the (for lack of a better title) I could have made that shot, thread.
Resulting in a casual match, where forum members with their carry pistol, took shots out to IIRC 75? yards. Called the Put Up or Shut UP shoot.
Sadly the one who could have taken that shot, failed to make the match. Claiming [ROFL1] prior commitments[UZI]
Seems to me There should be another casual shoot
Where those Tier 1 (OK) over $800 and gunsmith verified go against the low budget builds. Optics should be used as that's what one of the T-1 qualifiers is.
Let's say steel plates set from 25 - 100 yds, 4 total
5 rds per plate, loaded in 20 rd mags Total of 100 rounds per shooter
Next up is the endurance test. 500 rounds shot in to a berm / backstop In 100 rd increments .
Then 5-30 rd mags doing mag dumps.
Last FOF. 250 rds any rate of fire you choose.
Burn up 1k in ammo for sheets n giggles. With a side challenge of................................................ ....................... 5 rounds on a 9" paper plate to close out the event
You'll be given extra points for the following:
Extra points if you have the QC sheet from the optic you run.
Deduct having to shoot 100 rounds IF your carbine gets through the steel plate challenge w/out blowing up.
For every 100 rounds after that you get a participation trophy
Some lucky shooter who takes home the grand prize (probably a BCA complete upper) will also have the honor of
My Crappy Budget Build Survived a T-1 Challenge, moniker for 6 months. Pending mod review of the match results.
The LOSER GETS..................stuck taking me to the airport.
I'll supply the upper assy.
Why not, as a sub $500 rifle will only dent my SSDI check by a few months.
Do we all shoot the same type of ammunition?
Size of steel plates?
Are we shooting the rifles initially from a rest or prone to confirm zero and record group size?
Standard magazine types to ensure consistency? PMAG M3?s?
Rifles cleaned and degreased and lubricated the same prior to shooting? SLIP 2000 EWL or MP Pro 7?
Recording stoppages?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
I thought the chrome lining was because of issues when the rifle was first put into service in Vietnam? Apparently the humid climate combined with a general lack of maintenance was causing corrosion which lead to numerous malfunctions.
Originally the M16 was supposed to have a chromed lined barrel. McNamara had Colt change to a non chromed chamber and bore for reasons unknown to me. Chrome lining is hard to beat for prolonged firing schedules, chamber and bore longevity, and resistance to environmental conditions.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Great-Kazoo
02-10-2019, 23:53
Do we all shoot the same type of ammunition?
Size of steel plates?
Are we shooting the rifles initially from a rest or prone to confirm zero and record group size?
What?? This is a SHTF kicked in your front door, save your ass anyway you can, shoot. Steel rings, you just did COM
Standard magazine types to ensure consistency? PMAG M3?s?
Rifles cleaned and degreased and lubricated the same prior to shooting? SLIP 2000 EWL or MP Pro 7?
Recording stoppages?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
No maintenance during the shoot.
Ammo? what ever the contestant brings
Rifles cleaned and degreased and lubricated the same prior to shooting? SLIP 2000 EWL or MP Pro 7?
Once again, what ever the contestant chooses.
REMEMBER.................. not everyone can afford, or want to pay for a $800-1K + rifle, in today's market. Why should they be held to your level of expectations?
The lubes you listed, some here use, others don't or will never choose what you use over what they find works.
You're getting OCD about a casual shoot. I'll bring some piece of shit no name lower, with a BCA bbl.
Hey what ever it takes to WIN! .
YOU GET A TROPHY >
YOU GET A TROPHY >
EVERYONE get a Trophy
I hate participation trophy?s.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
No maintenance during the shoot.
Ammo? what ever the contestant brings
Rifles cleaned and degreased and lubricated the same prior to shooting? SLIP 2000 EWL or MP Pro 7?
Once again, what ever the contestant chooses.
REMEMBER.................. not everyone can afford, or want to pay for a $800-1K + rifle, in today's market. Why should they be held to your level of expectations?
The lubes you listed, some here use, others don't or will never choose what you use over what they find works.
You're getting OCD about a casual shoot.
Casual isn?t a good indicator of reliability or repeatability. I?m definitely a fan of ?Run what ya brung?
And I will readily admit to being OCD about firearms.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Great-Kazoo
02-11-2019, 00:00
Casual isn?t a good indicator of reliability or repeatability. I?m definitely a fan of ?Run what ya brung?
And I will readily admit to being OCD about firearms.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
I'm not going to wade through (what 11-12 pages now) to find what ever you said about reliability before. Either it works or it doesn't. I doubt my moderate mileage AR will go the distance, since i run them hard. But if i could figure out a way to make it, i'll be there just to shoot.
I was thinking Mobil 1 for lube.
I seem to recall chrome chamber and bore increased reliability with easier extraction. Chrome bore is more resistant to corrosion and wear and can contribute to higher velocities, at a slightly reduced accuracy.
Biggest problem with early M16s, if I remember correctly, was due to the military changing the cartridge powder from stick to ball type.
buffalobo
02-11-2019, 00:12
Everybody got a chance and Joe got to double down more than once, "bless his heart" as my granny would say.
Note of appreciation to everyone for being civil.
BPTactical
02-11-2019, 06:52
Lack of chrome chambers/bores and change to powder with the first fielding's of the M16 lies directly at the hands of John McNamara as a cost saving measure.
He decided the chrome was unnecessary and the powder change was done to save cost and recycle WWII era powders.
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