View Full Version : Bear Creek Arsenal (BCA) Raided by ICE
https://abc11.com/30-people-taken-into-custody-by-ice-at-sanford-company/5122017/
Approximately 30 people were taken into custody by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement at a manufacturing company in Sanford Tuesday morning.
It happened at the Bear Creek Arsenal.
Turns out, that is how you build and sell sub $500 trash AR-15?s. Employ foreign illegal aliens.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I wonder what the requirements for "valid ID" are, and how easy it'd be to just have someone bring you valid ID if you had it. I'm just wondering because I know a few women who don't always bring their driver's license when they leave the house (blows my mind and I don't understand why). If you're brown and don't have your id, then you're going for a ride in the van for sure.
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 15:05
https://abc11.com/30-people-taken-into-custody-by-ice-at-sanford-company/5122017/
?Approximately 30 people were taken into custody by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement at a manufacturing company in Sanford Tuesday morning.
It happened at the Bear Creek Arsenal.?
Turns out, that?s how you build and sell sub $500 trash AR-15?s. Employ foreign illegal aliens.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Really? I don't know about their hiring practices. However, the 4 barrels & BCG's i have from them work as well and as accurate as any other ones do.
Throw in their generous free 5K bbls the last 2 years, for Veterans, on veterans day. I'd still use them.
Then again Bushmaster, or Armalite never had an issue with their AR's. Then there was the accuracy one of the members had with (IIRC) DD, or was it LaRue?
Corners are cut to make and sell $500 AR-15?s and STILL make a profit. If its just a recreational high velocity .22 plinker why not? Project gun? Tinker around with and Dremel-Smith toy? Absolutely. But if you would ever load it up to use for real? Well, ya gotta ask yourself just one question. Do ya feel lucky? Well do ya?
There is just no way, in this country, to acquire and assemble components and then machine, finish, Q/A/QC and sell an in spec quality, reliable AR-15, even at scale, for less than $800 - $1,000 or more without cutting corners SOMEWHERE. BCA figured labor was the ticket, and reputable gun smiths everywhere have figured out the other corners cut.
77258
I will just leave this here...
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Martinjmpr
02-05-2019, 15:54
Ah, yes. Good ol' Fayette-Nam. That's one place that never ceases to amaze me.
BushMasterBoy
02-05-2019, 16:20
Probably had a hard time hiring locals. What with meth labs and main crops being tobacco and cotton. Maybe the illegals got caught shipping parts south of the border. Mainstream media always obscures or twists the truth. Sorry I am not politically correct. We will never get the real story from the press, because the truth is horrific.
https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/
Weren't some of their coatings found to contain asbestos?
Weren't some of their coatings found to contain asbestos?
Just kidding. I'm not even familiar with that company.
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 16:45
Corners are cut to make and sell $500 AR-15?s and STILL make a profit. If it?s just a recreational high velocity .22 plinker why not? Project gun? Tinker around with and Dremel-Smith toy? Absolutely. But if you would ever load it up to use for real? Well, ya gotta ask yourself just one question. Do ya feel lucky? Well do ya?
There?s just no way, in this country, to acquire and assemble components and then machine, finish, Q/A/QC and sell an in spec quality, reliable AR-15, even at scale, for less than $800 - $1,000 or more without cutting corners SOMEWHERE. BCA figured labor was the ticket, and reputable gun smiths everywhere have figured out the other corners cut.
I hear ya. I mean who can trust ANY mfg that sells $500 AR. or what was the price range, again? Less than $800- $1K
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/ar-15-oem-rifle-300-blackout-16--prod105392.aspx
Then again. Someone's getting hosed buying AR's even under $500. Completely understand.
Hell here's another AR someone HAD to Have Cut Corners on. I mean Can you believe the balls on this company. HOW DARE THEY!
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/oem-mid-length-16-rifle-prod81838.aspx
BPTactical
02-05-2019, 16:52
If they had non citizens manufacturing firearms/firearm related components ITAR will love them deeply...dry.
Bailey Guns
02-05-2019, 17:00
There are lots of shooter quality, or better, sub $500 AR rifles on the market. Ars are cheaper than at any time in my memory.
I don't know anything about the company in the OP.
Scanker19
02-05-2019, 17:29
One time I took a $500 AR to the range and everyone laughed at me. Since then I only use Daniels defense or better. Who’s laughing now mom! I still have no friends but I’m at least one $500 AR less.
SouthPaw
02-05-2019, 17:48
Sub $500? They were sub $300 on Black Friday ($299 + $17 shipping) lol.
I've had plenty of luck with my $269 PSA rifle kits (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-m4-carbine-classic-rifle-kit-olive-drab-green-516446411.html) and a $29 Poverty Pony lower (Anderson), fight me. Yes this doesn't include the 'labor' but is it really labor when you are building toys?
Not_A_Llama
02-05-2019, 17:59
I mean, for what it's worth, the barrels were fine. Even better than average, on a 5x5 grouping basis.
More of a reflection of the fact that the internet is chock full of liars, and people feel bad paying for expensive stuff. Lord knows I have.
Wow!
At least with Colt, I know I'm paying for union quality.
[Coffee]
buffalobo
02-05-2019, 18:29
Wow!
At least with Colt, I know I'm paying for union quality.
[Coffee]Or at least union breaks.
Or at least union breaks.
And a pretty pony rollmark.
In the end imho metal is metal and spec is spec. Most of the higher names still get supplied from the same makers as mid to lowend guys. Double check specs and what types of metal they use and buy.
To be fair, that price probably has a bit to do with Brownell buying a metric crap ton of them before the last election cycle and trying to get rid of stagnant inventory. Things do go on sale. That particular gun routinely went for much more than that. Prices have come down quite a bit for all but the best AR-15s on the market. However, that Aero Precision is still more than likely not an in spec Rifle. Castle nut not staked, oversized gas port, nitride vs. chrome lined bore, 1/8 vs. 1/7 twist rate, undersized H buffer, chamber etc. The rifle has probably not been test fired at the factory unless you get lucky. The manufacturer saves money by making you the end user pay to take care of those and other cost/corner cutting measures.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Its not just the metal, part supplier, roll or forge marking. It is the processes involved. QA/QC should be a thing we look more closely at then whose stamp is on the gun, but some of the better quality manufacturers hold themselves to a standard , ergo, their customers expect them to continue to do so. Once a brand stops, or stops, starts, stops, (heres looking at you Remington), people notice. Aside from some parts changed to plastic, todays 870s are still made with essentially the same metals and markings as guns made in the 70s and 80s but no one whose shot more than two examples of a current production 870, and an older 870 will tell you they are the same gun.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 19:44
To be fair, that price probably has a bit to do with Brownell buying a metric crap ton of them before the last election cycle and trying to get rid of stagnant inventory. Things do go on sale. That particular gun routinely went for much more than that. Prices have come down quite a bit for all but the best AR?s on the market. However, that Aero Precision is still more than likely not an in spec Rifle. Castle nut not staked, oversized gas port, nitride vs. chrome lined bore, 1/8 vs. 1/7 twist rate, undersized H buffer, chamber etc. The rifle has probably not been test fired at the factory unless you get lucky. The manufacturer saves money by making you the end user pay to take care of those and other cost/corner cutting measures.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
You're making excuses for your original post.
That's saying Unless it's a known supermarket, the same Bottled Coke and Pepsi you buy at 7-11 is a lower quality. Because it's uh well you know, uh cheaper.
Curious have you purchased a BCA complete rifle and or upper assembly?
If you can teach a Mexican to build a German car, I'm sure they can figure out an AR. Most modern factory workers are not seasoned craftsman who love what they are making. Most are semi-skilled assembly technicians. Usually people with the hard working, immigrant dreams. Would you like an ambitious foreigner, or am 80's GM union worker. Lots of gray area here. I've never heard of them but I'd buy one. I've known people that have had to send back VERY expensive guns. Probably made by real Americans. And the posting of a 30 dollar barrel is a picture of economy of scale. It's what happens when efficiency meets quantity.
Here for the comments.....
You're making excuses for your original post.
My initial post was directed at BCA and equivalents, Anderson, Bushmaster, DPMS, Doublestar, Omni, PSA, Radical and others. I was talking Pit-bull stats and you brought up the two stories of the man eating Golden Retrievers. Of course there are exceptions to almost any rule.
That's saying Unless it's a known supermarket, the same Bottled Coke and Pepsi you buy at 7-11 is a lower quality. Because it's uh well you know, uh cheaper.
No. Soda is not AR-15?s, AR-15?s are not Soda.
Curious have you purchased a BCA complete rifle and or upper assembly?
No. When I decided to buy my first serious use AR-15, I did research on what key components should be made out of, what tolerances it should have, and made sure I would get something that would work out of the box correctly, and not on the ragged edge of functionality. I Then saved my funds to purchase one. I still, for my own peace of mind, had a gunsmith give it a once over and do my best to maintain it and keep it in good functioning order. BCA is not known to manufacture quality. Again, they sell this.
77270
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Bailey Guns
02-05-2019, 22:28
You'd fit in perfectly with the guys on M4Carbine where everyone's an operator and has to have something from "The Chart".
Probably 99% of the people who buy an AR buy a box or two of ammo with the gun and won't shoot that in a year. A $450 AR from most any seller/maker will function just fine. And they won't even need a gunsmith to give it a "once over", whatever that means. Hell's bells...I finished my first 80% lower a few months ago, assembled it with used/leftover parts and slapped a $249 PSA upper on it and it works just fine. And it's never been checked by a gunsmith.
Not everyone has a Noveske budget. That's why guns like Hi Point and Jennings and such have a place in the market. Does a guy not deserve to be able to protect his family because he doesn't have a Les Baer budget? If all he can afford is a $150 Hi Point and a box of ammo is he less entitled to the same rights you and I are? Frankly, I think we should all be happier than a pig in slop that cheap ARs are all over the place. I may not want or need one, but someone else might.
hurley842002
02-05-2019, 22:32
You'd fit in perfectly with the guys on M4Carbine where everyone's an operator and has to have something from "The Chart".
Probably 99% of the people who buy an AR buy a box or two of ammo with the gun and won't shoot that in a year. A $450 AR from most any seller/maker will function just fine. And they won't even need a gunsmith to give it a "once over", whatever that means. Hell's bells...I finished my first 80% lower a few months ago, assembled it with used/leftover parts and slapped a $249 PSA upper on it and it works just fine. And it's never been checked by a gunsmith.
Not everyone has a Noveske budget. That's why guns like Hi Point and Jennings and such have a place in the market. Does a guy not deserve to be able to protect his family because he doesn't have a Les Baer budget? If all he can afford is a $150 Hi Point and a box of ammo is he less entitled to the same rights you and I are? Frankly, I think we should all be happier than a pig in slop that cheap ARs are all over the place. I may not want or need one, but someone else might.Well said, I was thinking the exact thing with the M4C comment.
I like the cheaper barrels. I?ve actually run several Bear Creek barrels with no issues. My 6.5 Grendel is using one of their barrels. Sure, it only shoots around 1 MOA with factory ammunition but once I get a few more rounds through it to season the barrel I?ll work up some loads and I bet I can get better groups. Overall I?m pretty happy with my $65 investment. Even if Juan and Jose built it.
Bailey Guns
02-05-2019, 22:43
Bud's Guns is selling some really trashy S&W ARs for just a hair over $500. You know...those crappy ones that have a lifetime warranty and backed by some of the best customer service in the industry?
I like the cheaper barrels. I?ve actually run several Bear Creek barrels with no issues. My 6.5 Grendel is using one of their barrels. Sure, it only shoots around 1 MOA with factory ammunition but once I get a few more rounds through it to season the barrel I?ll work up some loads and I bet I can get better groups. Overall I?m pretty happy with my $65 investment. Even if Juan and Jose built it.
Whats funny is that todays cheap barrels shoot 1 moa, and when they don't everyone complains. In the 80s 1moa was probably custom smith territory.
Budget AR-15s? Harbor Freight.
Quality AR-15s? The Old Craftsman, Snap On.
GunSmith Once Over:
Head Space.
Components look over.
Barrel nut torqued, gas block aligned, barrel dimpled properly.
Flash Hider Torqued and aligned.
All bolts/screws get loctite/vibratight and torqued to spec.
Receiver Extension plumb and installed correctly.
Castle Nut staked.
Flat Wire buffer spring.
H-2 Buffer.
Improved trigger installed. (ALG, Geissele, BCM PNT)
No ones saying people who choose to not save and buy quality rifles are lesser humans, or whatever it is that people are getting upset about in this thread. Just that there is a difference between budget, and quality. The best man made products are still made by man. That does NOT mean that Budget brand A = Quality Brand Z because humans are involved.
And yes some people are perfectly happy with what they have invested in and see no reason to change, or educate themselves on how an AR-15 is actually manufactured.
I will end with this, If you or a loved one were in a hostage situation and HRT had to enter the room to save your sorry butt, what would you want them to be using? Would it be your rifle at home? Thankfully/hopefully none of us will ever be in that situation. But if you are forced to use YOUR tools to save yourself, (why do we own these things anyway?), will you thinking about all that beer money you saved on that just as good as $299 AR and budget optic?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
SouthPaw
02-05-2019, 23:02
When I built my first SBR, I did the same as you. I picked Tier 1 components and paid through the nose. I got the best of the best of the best. I trust that rifle with my life and it has proven to me that it can do anything I ask of it. I chose a BCM 11.5? for this build. I opted for a Seekins billet lower but the damn pins kept walking out. Not to the point of falling out but enough that every hundred rounds or so, they would poke out a 1/8-1/4 inch. I tried the pins in an Aero lower with no issues. I ended up just buying some KNS anti walks and never had an issue again.
Years down the road, I bought a blem PSA complete upper for $169. When I received it, I looked for the blem and it was clearly visible, right between the rail and dust cover. I pulled out my SBR with the BCM upper to compare and guess what? It had the same exact blem, in the same exact spot. To add to it, both uppers had the same roll mark but one had BCM etched on it. I was kind of shocked that I paid BCM $550+ for a complete upper (that didn?t include a rail or handguard) and paid $169 for a complete PSA upper with a standard handguard. One company acknowledged the blem, the other did not. Who has the better QC?
Here is the BCM upper that I bought in 2011. It might be hard to see but look between the rail and shell deflector:
https://i.postimg.cc/HLwJ0Kbs/1-C0-D84-BF-5-BDE-48-CE-92-F5-ED0-FA0788-E31.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v1mHb0Pp)
https://i.postimg.cc/cJygnZgb/394-B1-E3-F-626-A-4497-B665-06-F020-AF7479.jpg (https://postimg.cc/bZgN77Rx)
I went out to the safe to snap those pictures tonight and pulled out the two BCM uppers that I have, along with a PSA upper I bought a few weeks ago. All three of them has the same roll mark on the upper.
https://i.postimg.cc/KjBvF3Qc/A9-E5-A35-B-74-BA-4-B05-A189-8-DEC0-FD0-B58-D.jpg (https://postimg.cc/JH7W5n9S)
Top is the BCM (obviously), bottom PSA.
https://i.postimg.cc/bYtv148X/723-F064-E-9-F08-4-DBE-9-C82-60640-AB558-C8.jpg (https://postimg.cc/V5z18Gd4)
Not to say you don?t always get what you pay for, but there is plenty of deals out there to had. Ruger as well all know has made quality firearms for years but their recent MPR rifles have had a lot of problems right out of the box. Buy whatever you can afford and run the hell out of it until you trust it. I?m happy with all of my budget builds and my expensive ones too.
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 23:04
No. BCA is not known [LOL]
Every company turns out lemons. Whether they step up to make it right. That determines how long a business last.
So bottom line is You HEARD about, BUT..........................NEVER actually owned a BCA. Yet outside of the ICE issue. Run down a product you really only know about 2nd hand. [facepalm]
Then again, i will never own a VW based on my former neighbors issues, with her 72 Karmen Ghia. Her ex told me about.
Seems like if your rig is competition worthy, then it's fine for whatever else.
SouthPaw
02-05-2019, 23:13
Hell this guy in Nairobi didn?t seem to have any issues running a ?budget? Sig Romeo which rumor has it are rebadged Holosuns.
https://i.postimg.cc/nr9fBXW8/77-E42008-02-F8-461-C-A9-A3-FAF18-D2-A123-B.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
I can trust even my crappiest rifle to fire enough rounds to protect myself or my family. Would I take it to war or have it be my only weapon in a total end of world scenario? Probably not.
Most shooters (myself included) won?t shoot enough rounds in their lifetime to wear out a rifle.
I have seen cheap rifles beak unexpectedly. I?ve seen broken cam pins on two ocassions and I once saw a bolt break in half at the cam pin hole. I won?t skimp on bolt carrier groups for this reason and run BCM in just about all of my rifles.
Barrels are one area that I won?t spend a ton of money on. Assuming they headspace correctly and the gas port is sized right and the accuracy is acceptable, I?m good to go. If I manage to put enough rounds through it that headspace or accuracy is no longer acceptable then I?ll spend another $80-$100 and toss a new barrel on.
I think I have met a gunsmith or 2. Never has one of them "once over" my firearms.
I mean, I could take a couple in to get the barrels threaded, but that's not totally necessary.
What it boils down to is that if they were hiring illegals, then that means they are Goddamned liberals and you're sending them your money.
What it boils down to is that if they were hiring illegals, then that means they are Goddamned liberals and you're sending them your money.
So.... just build the wall around BCA?
Every company turns out lemons. Whether they step up to make it right. That determines how long a business last.
So bottom line is You HEARD about, BUT..........................NEVER actually owned a BCA. Yet outside of the ICE issue. Run down a product you really only know about 2nd hand. [facepalm]
Then again, i will never own a VW based on my former neighbors issues, with her 72 Karmen Ghia. Her ex told me about.
I have never been married to Nancy Pelosi either, but I know that she is not wife material.
Choosing to not own something because of a lack of a reputation for quality, then pointing out there is no way they are not cutting corners after evidence is presented pointing towards them cutting corners is the angle I am working right now.
People who have spent a little bit of cash and own several of them, like yourself, have more skin in the game to defend them as a brand than I do. Im guessing you probably do not own stock in, or personally know the owners of BCA, why are you trying to prove that they are NOT trash?
Can you explain to me why a Pistol length gas system would be a good idea on a 14.5 inch 5.56 rifle barrel?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
So.... just build the wall around BCA?
Can't now. All the wall builders just got arrested!
When I built my first SBR, I did the same as you. I picked Tier 1 components and paid through the nose. I got the best of the best of the best. I trust that rifle with my life and it has proven to me that it can do anything I ask of it. I chose a BCM 11.5? for this build. I opted for a Seekins billet lower but the damn pins kept walking out. Not to the point of falling out but enough that every hundred rounds or so, they would poke out a 1/8-1/4 inch. I tried the pins in an Aero lower with no issues. I ended up just buying some KNS anti walks and never had an issue again.
Years down the road, I bought a blem PSA complete upper for $169. When I received it, I looked for the blem and it was clearly visible, right between the rail and dust cover. I pulled out my SBR with the BCM upper to compare and guess what? It had the same exact blem, in the same exact spot. To add to it, both uppers had the same roll mark but one had BCM etched on it. I was kind of shocked that I paid BCM $550+ for a complete upper (that didn?t include a rail or handguard) and paid $169 for a complete PSA upper with a standard handguard. One company acknowledged the blem, the other did not. Who has the better QC?
Here is the BCM upper that I bought in 2011. It might be hard to see but look between the rail and shell deflector:
https://i.postimg.cc/HLwJ0Kbs/1-C0-D84-BF-5-BDE-48-CE-92-F5-ED0-FA0788-E31.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v1mHb0Pp)
https://i.postimg.cc/cJygnZgb/394-B1-E3-F-626-A-4497-B665-06-F020-AF7479.jpg (https://postimg.cc/bZgN77Rx)
I went out to the safe to snap those pictures tonight and pulled out the two BCM uppers that I have, along with a PSA upper I bought a few weeks ago. All three of them has the same roll mark on the upper.
https://i.postimg.cc/KjBvF3Qc/A9-E5-A35-B-74-BA-4-B05-A189-8-DEC0-FD0-B58-D.jpg (https://postimg.cc/JH7W5n9S)
Top is the BCM (obviously), bottom PSA.
https://i.postimg.cc/bYtv148X/723-F064-E-9-F08-4-DBE-9-C82-60640-AB558-C8.jpg (https://postimg.cc/V5z18Gd4)
Not to say you don?t always get what you pay for, but there is plenty of deals out there to had. Ruger as well all know has made quality firearms for years but their recent MPR rifles have had a lot of problems right out of the box. Buy whatever you can afford and run the hell out of it until you trust it. I?m happy with all of my budget builds and my expensive ones too.
I?m speaking about function over form. There?s no telling when and where the non blemished yet blemished Rifle got dinged.
Again roll marks have so little to do with actual reliability.
Table scraps. It?s a thing.
If I handed you two McDonalds McDouble?s Cheeseburgers in the wrapper, let you look them over then told you one was $1, and the other was $0.35, wouldn?t you want to know why one was $0.65 cheaper before buying and eating it? Some people are buying the $0.35 burger and not realizing it was dug out of the dumpster 15 minutes before, wiped off, reheated, repackaged and sold to you as a DEAL And yes it might taste the same, and the wrapper is the same. But it is not the same thing at all.
There?s no rules on out of spec, out of tolerance rifle parts being sold to the highest bidder and then sold to you as a ?Just as good? product.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Hell this guy in Nairobi didn?t seem to have any issues running a ?budget? Sig Romeo which rumor has it are rebadged Holosuns.
https://i.postimg.cc/nr9fBXW8/77-E42008-02-F8-461-C-A9-A3-FAF18-D2-A123-B.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
They might be made in the same factory, but the QA/QC is different. The average Holosun didn?t have to pass stringent testing to be chosen. The Sigs are used by some great folks. Also, not every ?High Speed Low Drag? guy is a gun guy. Notice his PEQ is at the wrong end of his hand guard as well.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Seems like if your rig is competition worthy, then it's fine for whatever else.
Gunfights. The worlds highest stake shooting competition.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Bud's Guns is selling some really trashy S&W ARs for just a hair over $500. You know...those crappy ones that have a lifetime warranty and backed by some of the best customer service in the industry?
The Best warranty is the one you don?t have to use. I?ve had to use S&W lifetime warranty and excellent customer service more than once myself. Smith should have stuck with making awesome revolvers.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
GunSmith Once Over:
Head Space.
Components look over.
Barrel nut torqued, gas block aligned, barrel dimpled properly.
Flash Hider Torqued and aligned.
All bolts/screws get loctite/vibratight and torqued to spec.
Receiver Extension plumb and installed correctly.
Castle Nut staked.
Flat Wire buffer spring.
H-2 Buffer.
Improved trigger installed. (ALG, Geissele, BCM PNT)
Of these listed, which have to do with tolerance?
Out of curiosity, what specifically are the areas where "in spec" tolerances matter? I've had a lower where the pins would walk out in half a mag. That seems important. What else? I don't know much about my rifles so I'm actually asking, and not instigating.
Notice his PEQ is at the wrong end of his hand guard as well.
What?s a PEQ?
Thanks.
https://gear-report.com/bear-creek-arsenal-review-gear-report-road-trip-factory-tour
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
What?s a PEQ?
Thanks.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190206/7ad102d944202c769a9ed90dc644b958.jpg
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Of these listed, which have to do with tolerance?
Out of curiosity, what specifically are the areas where "in spec" tolerances matter? I've had a lower where the pins would walk out in half a mag. That seems important. What else? I don't know much about my rifles so I'm actually asking, and not instigating.
Just the look over. Function checking, if needed pulling calipers out and checking certain areas for spacing in relation to other key areas.
Having a properly sized gas port, balanced with a good spring and appropriate weight buffer will make an incredibly smooth cycling and shooting rifle without needing a fancy muzzle device, adjustable gas block, or overly aggressive grip/stance.
Is the ejector and Extractor functioning correctly? Is the rubber o-ring and insert present? Are the gas rings good? A non staked castle but will eventually shake loose, either from firing, jostling around in a vehicle or airplane. If it?s threaded it can come loose. Loctite where appropriate and torqued to spec will lessen that phenomenon from occurring at a less than ideal time.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 23:52
I?ve never been married to Nancy Pelosi either, but I know she?s not wife material.
Choosing to not own something because of a lack of a reputation for quality, then pointing out there is no way they aren?t cutting corners after evidence is presented pointing towards them cutting corners is the angle I?m working right now.
People who have spent a little bit of cash and own several of them, like yourself, have more skin in the game to defend them as a brand than I do. I?m guessing you probably don?t own stock in, or personally know the owners of BCA, why are you trying to prove that they aren?t trash?
Can you explain to me why a Pistol length gas system would be a good idea on a 14.5? 5.56 rifle barrel?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I have no clue on the gas system, perhaps it was a 300 blk and typo for caliber. Have you asked them?
Regarding BCA and defending them. Until i, personally, have an issue with a product. I'm happy to run it.
My x39 upper from them has seen lots of abuse / rounds down the pipe.
I also like they do freeboies for veterans, 1-2x a year. .
Going slightly OT for a sec: I've recommended Green Mtn Barrels for a few years when people ask what's a good bbl for under $150.
Some, having never heard of them are . Ehh i'll stick to name brand. OK then i suggest a spikes bbl. They pay more for a spikes branded bbl than GM, who provides bbls to spikes.
Back OT. You've shown 1 picture with a (if not typo) valid issue. You don't own a BCA, yet run them down. Told us about your build a competent smith and a nice one, by what you said.
However, bottom line. You had an AR Built for you, not an actual off the rack Tier 1. Why? After all, if it's not Tier 1 $800-1K minimum it's crap.
Anyway. we can agree to disagree all night.
Or for another 6 or 7 replies before i hit 470 and call it a night.
I have no clue on the gas system, perhaps it was a 300 blk and typo for caliber. Have you asked them?
Regarding BCA and defending them. Until i, personally, have an issue with a product. I'm happy to run it.
My x39 upper from them has seen lots of abuse / rounds down the pipe.
I also like they do freeboies for veterans, 1-2x a year. .
Going slightly OT for a sec: I've recommended Green Mtn Barrels for a few years when people ask what's a good bbl for under $150.
Some, having never heard of them are . Ehh i'll stick to name brand. OK then i suggest a spikes bbl. They pay more for a spikes branded bbl than GM, who provides bbls to spikes.
Back OT. You've shown 1 picture with a (if not typo) valid issue. You don't own a BCA, yet run them down. Told us about your build a competent smith and a nice one, by what you said.
However, bottom line. You had an AR Built for you, not an actual off the rack Tier 1. Why? After all, if it's not Tier 1 $800-1K minimum it's crap.
Anyway. we can agree to disagree all night. Or
It could be a typo. Ha everyone remembers HK?s epic fail with backwards rounds in the mag.
A company like Green Mt. or FN that provides OEM products to other companies might also offer certain products that failed basic standards for acceptance. It?s a travesty that type of thing happens, but it does. Table scrap guns and gun parts. Sometimes, due to the somewhat forgiving nature of the AR-15 towards tolerance stacking, a consumer will luck out and get a great deal on a functioning product, but it?s a gamble, a waiting game.
In regards to Tier 1 rifles.
I wish I had Hodge or Knights money. Eventually I will. I have a BCM, but I?m in no way going to say my average, decent rifle is comparable. They aren?t. They?re worlds apart. I have a factory complete rifle that I then paid a Smith to look at and the rest of the work I did myself assuming they are user level maintenance, like changing a buffer and spring, or function checking.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
BushMasterBoy
02-06-2019, 02:00
So in summary, BCA is selling guns to welfare mothers, old age pensioners, disabled people with fixed incomes and other poor souls. God bless them.
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 07:45
Most people worried about protecting themselves would be far better off with improving their shooting skills than they would be with buying/owning a "Tier 1" rifle.
And I've never even heard of BCA before this thread as far as I remember. I just think the whole "if your rifle isn't Tier 1 it just isn't worthy" thing is ridiculous. But that's my opinion.
On the other hand, I feel the same way about Dodge/Ram trucks even though I've never owned one and never will. I'd never spend my money on one of those whether a trucksmith gave it a once over or not. So maybe I'm a hypocrite.
[Neene1]
I have a few BCA 16” carbine gas barrels I got for the purpose of an eventual binary trigger - figured, “why trash an expensive barrel?” I threw one on a pistol and its accuracy with 55gr ammo was within same area as more expensive barrels with the same ammo. Dunno about their full builds.
Hope my more expensive AR barrels don’t feel bad about sharing safe space with a run-down, double wide living cousin.
Great-Kazoo
02-06-2019, 08:23
With some of the "feelings" regarding budget, or table scrap builds . I'm asking all of us to unite in solidarity, imploring the mods to remove this section of the forum
https://www.ar-15.co/forums/143-Buyer-Intel
Knowing now a low priced, or even on sale, item may be inferior to the same or related item at a higher price. We should not have to worry about anyone, especially newer members, getting snookered in to buying a ON SALE Sig Romeo, or possibly a Glock LE trade in.
ChickNorris
02-06-2019, 08:27
This thread needs a new title line
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 10:07
^^ No, just some common sense. Then again most threads could use that.
ChickNorris
02-06-2019, 10:46
Deleted... I'll just make trouble
SouthPaw
02-06-2019, 11:05
In regards to Tier 1 rifles.
I have a BCM, but I?m in no way going to say my average, decent rifle is comparable. They aren?t. They?re worlds apart. I have a factory complete rifle that I then paid a Smith to look at and the rest of the work I did myself assuming they are user level maintenance, like changing a buffer and spring, or function checking.
Just out of curiosity, is this the same rifle you had a gunsmith once over? If so, did they find anything out of spec?
We did steer this thread a bit off topic but ultimately it revolves around what a company presumably did on hiring illegals to 'cut cost'. I can tell in the industry I am in (oil/gas/energy), there a TON of illegals working for various companies. I can also tell you that just because they are illegals, they don't make less than anyone else, often times more. I personally know two of them (didn't know they were illegals up until about 4-5 months ago) and they were both well above 100K a year, probably closer to the 200K mark. Both experts in their field. I may be way off base but I don't think illegals necessarily make significant less money then others unless they are picking onions in the field; at least that has been my experience with them.
Truth be told, my seekins lower doesn't qualify as in spec with it being billet and taking propitiatory parts to complete it that obviously won't fit in a standard mil spec lower. Everyone is trying to compete in the AR market, especially with the downfall in pricing. Prices have dropped and some people have not bought into the budget world yet. Less expensive doesn't always mean less quality.
Making over $100k a year and still taking government handouts (that's what all illegals do right?), preposterous!
SouthPaw
02-06-2019, 11:40
Making over $100k a year and still taking government handouts (that's what all illegals do right?), preposterous!
Without indulging in all of the details, both of them of the are stand up guys. Both paid their taxes; one became a citizen and the other headed back to his home country after some personal issues. I still communicate with him and he is working on getting back here legally, even with some assistance from companies he did work with while here. They were both brought here at a very young age and the one that now has his citizenship, laughs that he can now vote for Trump [ROFL2].
I used one of their 1:9 16" mid-length gas system barrels for my son's build along with their 15" MLOK free-float hand guard. Both products were great. Fit/finish was on point and it was an accurate shooter with no issues at all. It's not a tier-1 rifle, but for him it is a great starter AR and to current date I've had no issues with it (400 rounds & counting).
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/Cole%20AR_zpsciw10by7.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/Cole%20AR_zpsciw10by7.jpg.html)
Here?s my not-tier-1 6.5 Grendel with a Bear Creek barrel.
It even sports some other non-tier-1 parts like a UTG handguard and an Anderson lower.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190206/eed1ae5f04abeda4bec4713ca96c551e.jpg
UrbanWolf
02-06-2019, 13:14
This thread needs a new title line
I was thinking of the same thing.
I have a buddy who bought a KAC. He had some issues with it. Had to go through warranty service.
What makes an adult LEGO set tier 1, exactly?
I have a buddy who bought a KAC. He had some issues with it. Had to go through warranty service.
What makes an adult LEGO set tier 1, exactly?
You have to spend more than 3 month's income...like an engagement ring...apparently.
AR-15?s are not all manufactured equally.
Companies cut corners to increase profit.
Hiring illegals is a cost saving measure. Even if you pay them the same wages as a US Citizen.
If something?s junk, and you like it, it?s still junk. You?re not a bad person for liking said junk.
Be honest and don?t compare junk with quality. Harbor Freight vs Snap on.
Saying that your Rifle has worked just fine for X-number of rounds doesn?t mean that Rifle was built correctly with quality components.
Rounds fired are like vehicle miles driven. 500 rounds fired, no issues. 500 miles driven, no issues.
Tier one units use good quality stuff for their mission set. They have redundancy, both in firearms, and backup. You, by yourself have you.
Rule #1 No one is coming to save you. If anyone had a higher standard for a potential life saving piece of equipment it would be the 25 year old construction worker making 50K a year with a Wife and new baby at home to take care of. If a High Speed Low drag guys season fails him m, the mission can still ultimately succeed. If your Rifle fails you, you are probably dead.
Since the 1700?s adjusted for all factors, a quality made Military or better grade Rifle has always cost the end user one to two months of average pay. Quality rifles can be had for less than that for someone making above average pay. For those making less, it would take them more discipline to save up for quality. Or accept less for less.
For those making the it cost too much money, and this is just as good arguments. Stop being poor. Buy more money.
Training vs good gear? Why not both? It doesn?t have to be one vs. the other.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Just out of curiosity, is this the same rifle you had a gunsmith once over? If so, did they find anything out of spec?
We did steer this thread a bit off topic but ultimately it revolves around what a company presumably did on hiring illegals to 'cut cost'. I can tell in the industry I am in (oil/gas/energy), there a TON of illegals working for various companies. I can also tell you that just because they are illegals, they don't make less than anyone else, often times more. I personally know two of them (didn't know they were illegals up until about 4-5 months ago) and they were both well above 100K a year, probably closer to the 200K mark. Both experts in their field. I may be way off base but I don't think illegals necessarily make significant less money then others unless they are picking onions in the field; at least that has been my experience with them.
Truth be told, my seekins lower doesn't qualify as in spec with it being billet and taking propitiatory parts to complete it that obviously won't fit in a standard mil spec lower. Everyone is trying to compete in the AR market, especially with the downfall in pricing. Prices have dropped and some people have not bought into the budget world yet. Less expensive doesn't always mean less quality.
The chamber was cut ever so slightly tighter than NATO specs. 5 seconds with a Chamber Reamer, Good to go.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I have a buddy who bought a KAC. He had some issues with it. Had to go through warranty service.
What makes an adult LEGO set tier 1, exactly?
Man made items can and will fail.
Not sure who came up with the whole comparison of rifles into Tiers.
It?s either Duty/ Serious use/Professional use ready, or its a budget/range toy. Or a compromise in between.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I didn't pay to read this thread, so it must not be top tier info.
Where is the cost savings in hiring illegals and paying them the same wages?
Where is the cost savings in hiring illegals and paying them the same wages?
Taxes, Social Security, Benefits.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
It?s either Duty/ Serious use/Professional use ready, or its a budget/range toy. Or a compromise in between.
Many, many battles have been won by men using rifles that were merely "in spec"(sometimes just barely), rather than being "tier One". Often, the most reliable rifle is not the most precisely machined and assembled, hence the global success of the AK-47. Will a rifle assembled by a premier gunsmith from the finest components be more accurate than my PSA/Anderson Frankengun? Probably. Is it more reliable, and have more "practical" accuracy(meaning being able to reliably hit the targets I want, at the ranges I shoot)? Maybe, maybe not. Would I have nothing but the finest rifles available, if money were no object? Maybe, maybe not.
ETA: Yeah, if I had the budget of US SOCOM, I'd probably have all the cool toys...
Great-Kazoo
02-06-2019, 14:40
Man made items can and will fail.
Not sure who came up with the whole comparison of rifles into Tiers.
It?s either Duty/ Serious use/Professional use ready, or its a budget/range toy. Or a compromise in between.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Are you $%^&* high??? You started the thread, then posted this not implying but actually saying This
There?s just no way, in this country, to acquire and assemble components and then machine, finish, Q/A/QC and sell an in spec quality, reliable AR-15, even at scale, for less than $800 - $1,000 or more without cutting corners SOMEWHERE. BCA figured labor was the ticket, and reputable gun smiths everywhere have figured out the other corners cut.
You came out and said ^^^^^^^ But i'll put it here in case you're unable to figure out where the "tier" designation came from
Saying there's no quality or reliable AR IF it cost under $800 - $1000
Hence placing an item in a certain "Tier" for value / reliability .
However i give up since my under $300 laptop needs the battery recharged.
Are you $%^&* high??? You started the thread, then posted this not implying but actually saying This
There?s just no way, in this country, to acquire and assemble components and then machine, finish, Q/A/QC and sell an in spec quality, reliable AR-15, even at scale, for less than $800 - $1,000 or more without cutting corners SOMEWHERE. BCA figured labor was the ticket, and reputable gun smiths everywhere have figured out the other corners cut.
You came out and said ^^^^^^^ But i'll put it here in case you're unable to figure out where the "tier" designation came from
Saying there's no quality or reliable AR IF it cost under $800 - $1000
Hence placing an item in a certain "Tier" for value / reliability .
However i give up since my under $300 laptop needs the battery recharged.
Why are you so upset Kazoo? Are you emotionally invested in your BCA rifle?
You?re right though that is a Tier System. Whenever I hear Tier One, I immediately think
of the U.S. Military and Tier 1 vs Tier 2 Special Operations Units.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Great-Kazoo
02-06-2019, 14:55
Why are you so upset Kazoo? Are you emotionally invested in your BCA rifle?
You?re right though that is a Tier System. Whenever I hear Tier One, I immediately think
of the U.S. Military and Tier 1 vs Tier 2 Special Operations Units.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Not upset, astounded how wrong you are. To the point of being insecure enough you paid someone to look at a rifle that was new. Or was this a kit you assembled?
Then there's the backtracking, once again.
Denial isn't a river.
Not_A_Llama
02-06-2019, 15:08
They might be made in the same factory, but the QA/QC is different. The average Holosun didn?t have to pass stringent testing to be chosen. The Sigs are used by some great folks. Also, not every ?High Speed Low Drag? guy is a gun guy. Notice his PEQ is at the wrong end of his hand guard as well.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
How do you know this?
What country is the Sig Romeo made in?
Do you really think the Sig passed ?stringent? testing beyond the rest of the Holosuns?
Are you really typing in your signature at the bottom of every message? (the real question)
As a statistician, and having worked in process control, nothing gives me an unwarranted god complex and the heebie-jeebies more than the blind faith people put in the protocols I design and the analysis I make.
Not upset, astounded how wrong you are. To the point of being insecure enough you paid someone to look at a rifle that was new. Or was this a kit you assembled?
Then there's the backtracking, once again.
Denial isn't a river.
Wrong about this whole topic? Or something specifically?
So having checks done on equipment is your definition of insecure?
New things, even from great manufacturers can fail. Better safe than sorry.
No. Factory complete Rifle.
Not backtracking at all. Adding context to the conversation.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Taxes, Social Security, Benefits.
If they (BCA) weren't subject to tax fraud, employment fraud, or anything else, we know that taxes and social security are coming out of paychecks like every other company. I'm not sure if there is a company size threshold for providing benefits, but companies can not offer benefits to whomever they want. Illegals not paying taxes is mostly a myth in that the only real way to do so is if you have a cash only job with no record of you. I'm sure there is plenty of that, in fact I take any cash paying job that comes my way.
How do you know this?
What country is the Sig Romeo made in?
Do you really think the Sig passed ?stringent? testing beyond the rest of the Holosuns?
Are you really typing in your signature at the bottom of every message? (the real question)
As a statistician, and having worked in process control, nothing gives me an unwarranted god complex and the heebie-jeebies more than the blind faith people put in the protocols I design and the analysis I make.
Couldn?t tell you what country. I do know they were adopted for use by UK SAS, FBI, and a variety of other end users where reliability is a must.
No. On my user settings I just set it up, and now it puts it in automatically whenever I post. If you would like I wouldn?t mind changing it to something different.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
SouthPaw
02-06-2019, 15:47
Not sure who came up with the whole comparison of rifles into Tiers.
I think I can take blame for that one on this post by referring to my SBR purchases as tier 1. I was merely trying to separate table top AR's vs top of line in your eyes.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/172670-Bear-Creek-Arsenal-(BCA)-Raided-by-ICE?p=2192971&viewfull=1#post2192971 (https://www.ar-15.co/threads/172670-Bear-Creek-Arsenal-(BCA)-Raided-by-ICE?p=2192971&viewfull=1#post2192971/)
Notice his PEQ is at the wrong end of his hand guard as well.
Judging by the picture, I am assuming by where his hand is placed, he shoots in the c clamp position. I know very little about PEQ's but I'm guessing as long as they are facing the right direction, they work? Maybe I am wrong, I don't have the money to buy one. Feel free to educate me. I wouldn't go as far as saying that this guy isn't a gun guy solely by where his PEQ is placed because obviously he was VERY effective with his tool and knows how to run it.
https://i.postimg.cc/dt1g6j0T/t1.png (https://postimages.org/)
Ten years ago, there was no such thing as a ~$800 AR-15. I remember looking at one and trying to figure how I was going to buy it. I couldn't scrape the funds together, so I opted for a WASR-10 for $399. I never thought I would see the day where the tables would turn and you can get two AR-15's for the price of a WASR but what a time to be alive. I think as long as it runs reliably, who cares what it cost. I would defend myself with a hi-point if it came down to it and I knew it ran well.
Not_A_Llama
02-06-2019, 16:09
Couldn?t tell you what country. I do know they were adopted for use by UK SAS, FBI, and a variety of other end users where reliability is a must.
No. On my user settings I just set it up, and now it puts it in automatically whenever I post. If you would like I wouldn?t mind changing it to something different.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I’ll help you out. It’s China. They’re all made in China. Integrated optoelectronics are technologically so difficult to produce that no meaningful QC/QA can be done off the line. A true bathtub curve - they die in the cradle, or far down the line.
You can keep your signature.
Man made items can and will fail.
Even tier-1 stuff.
Little Dutch
02-06-2019, 16:29
Ten years ago, there was no such thing as a ~$800 AR-15. I remember looking at one and trying to figure how I was going to buy it. I couldn't scrape the funds together, so I opted for a WASR-10 for $399. I never thought I would see the day where the tables would turn and you can get two AR-15's for the price of a WASR but what a time to be alive. I think as long as it runs reliably, who cares what it cost. I would defend myself with a hi-point if it came down to it and I knew it ran well.
It's a golden age of AR-15 availability. My old Fisher Ent. receiver was EXPENSIVE because it was purchased right before the clinton ban, and there was no way you were ever going to be able to buy one if you didn't buy the one in front of you right at that moment. It may be the most expensive AR receiver I own actually. Meanwhile, the PSA AR-10 I bought last year cost a fair percentage less than my FAL and the AR-10 has better accuracy.
When the prices on the AR's came down, my safe filled up. Back when I only owned 1 or 2, I was really big into the big names. Thinking that if it wasn't RR, Colt, or whomever else, it was probably junk. I would have gone elitist at the thought of a $500 complete rifle from CBC or PSA. What I've discovered in recent years is that it really doesn't matter much who made it so long as the barrel and BCG are solid.
ETA: Moriarti has a lot of intricately fluted barrels and side charging receivers. Do you think Moriarti purchases from BCA, which seems to manufacture/specialize in those two things? I didn't find anything on a quick internet search.
I will say that my .450 bushmaster upper from Moriarti is accurate and functions well.
Scanker19
02-06-2019, 17:16
AR-15?s are not all manufactured equally.
If something?s junk, and you like it, it?s still junk. You?re not a bad person for liking said junk.
Be honest and don?t compare junk with quality. Harbor Freight vs Snap on.
Saying that your Rifle has worked just fine for X-number of rounds doesn?t mean that Rifle was built correctly with quality components.
Rounds fired are like vehicle miles driven. 500 rounds fired, no issues. 500 miles driven, no issues.
Who defines junk? You? Your Gunsmith? It's like asking what's the best AR-15? or What's the best ______. That depends on what you're using it for. do you have $150 and need a pistol that will always fire? Then A hi-point is your best best. If your best AR is a range toy then a sub $500 one is your best bet.
It always seems to me that people that buy ''quality" with no real need for it do it just to impress someone or themselves. A purchase name drop. Or you're literally Paying for the name on the side. Do I need snap on tools? No harbor freight is fine for me they do their job for the job I give them. People tend to run into quality issues when they misuse their tools. A Glock is a great police weapon, but probably wouldn't be a good military weapon, and an even worse wheel chock. So at what point does Glock stop being a quality?
I was looking at a new CCW pistol recently. It came down to a Glock 43 or a Keltec PF9. I love glock, but eventually the Keltec won out. Does the same thing a glock would do, but it only cost me $160. Which left me a bunch of extra cash to get a few hundred rounds of ammo, some holsters, a large pizza and some new porn. Turned out to be a great weekend training.
Off topic, kinda.
Wolf (Tier 1) makes a $1200 convection microwave.
Sharpe makes a $800 convection microwave.
Same exact machine with different name plates. Guess who makes Wolf's Microwaves.
Scanker19
02-06-2019, 18:17
Off topic, kinda.
Wolf (Tier 1) makes a $1200 convection microwave.
Sharpe makes a $800 convection microwave.
Same exact machine with different name plates. Guess who makes Wolf's Microwaves.
Bear Creek Arsenal...?
A Glock is a great police weapon, but probably wouldn't be a good military weapon
You should have sent that memo out. Apparently several countries and even certain groups within our military are using the Glock pistols.
Bear Creek Arsenal...?
Like!
.......Which left me a bunch of extra cash to get a few hundred rounds of ammo, some holsters, a large pizza and some new porn. Turned out to be a great weekend training.
Training, huh?
Man made items can and will fail.
Not sure who came up with the whole comparison of rifles into Tiers.
It?s either Duty/ Serious use/Professional use ready, or its a budget/range toy. Or a compromise in between.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Not sure who came up the the "tier" system, I know in the LE & Mil world we used it in reference to tried/true/tested life saving equipment. For me, tier-1 means I trust it to work without fail in a life saving situation under hard use. One reason I trust every single Glock I own. I understand that all mechanical devices can & will fail at some point. I just want to make sure whatever item I'm trusting my life to won't reach it's failure point easily. That will be different for each person and that's the beauty of having the selection of firearms available to us. [Beer]
Based on an arfcom post I saw when researching various RDS and such, one of the guys was saying the Sig Romeo in use by a particular unit or agency was having problems. Like, a lot of them were just dying.
Aside from perhaps units with mission-based wallets ( a la “I want this”), I don’t think any military use, even by Rangers, SF, et al. merits much for the little guy. Those contracts have warranties and replacements built in. Citizen Snuffy doesn’t have that luxury. Moreover, if something dies, they just get another and move on with life. They aren’t saving their lunch money (sometimes literally for some folks) for months to afford something above a low end Vortex or Burris. They’re sticking ACOG, EOTech, Nightforce, S&B, etc. on, not as an endorsement, but because that’s what they’re issued. Same with Colt, KAC, etc.
And guess what? They all still bitch about their stuff jamming, breaking, less than desirably accurate, too much training to run as well as they’d like, heavy, etc.
It’s a toss up.
Who defines junk? You? Your Gunsmith? It's like asking what's the best AR-15? or What's the best ______. That depends on what you're using it for. do you have $150 and need a pistol that will always fire? Then A hi-point is your best best. If your best AR is a range toy then a sub $500 one is your best bet.
It always seems to me that people that buy ''quality" with no real need for it do it just to impress someone or themselves. A purchase name drop. Or you're literally Paying for the name on the side. Do I need snap on tools? No harbor freight is fine for me they do their job for the job I give them. People tend to run into quality issues when they misuse their tools. A Glock is a great police weapon, but probably wouldn't be a good military weapon, and an even worse wheel chock. So at what point does Glock stop being a quality?
I was looking at a new CCW pistol recently. It came down to a Glock 43 or a Keltec PF9. I love glock, but eventually the Keltec won out. Does the same thing a glock would do, but it only cost me $160. Which left me a bunch of extra cash to get a few hundred rounds of ammo, some holsters, a large pizza and some new porn. Turned out to be a great weekend training.
Objective facts do. Not me.
It?s almost like these videos were made for you, and several others in this thread.
Figuring out what sources to trust for good info
https://youtu.be/OSX55_qyIhc
AR-15?s are like Legos (Not)
https://youtu.be/zEDcpIIbeMs
It works for me!
https://youtu.be/i6yq_WiuwSU
Any gun is better than no gun!
https://youtu.be/mVCNfB_gogI
To each his own.
https://youtu.be/19BYOtJkZKs
AR-15 Mfg. QA/QC
https://youtu.be/p9uApV0IfbU
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Based on an arfcom post I saw when researching various RDS and such, one of the guys was saying the Sig Romeo in use by a particular unit or agency was having problems. Like, a lot of them were just dying.
Aside from perhaps units with mission-based wallets ( a la ?I want this?), I don?t think any military use, even by Rangers, SF, et al. merits much for the little guy. Those contracts have warranties and replacements built in. Citizen Snuffy doesn?t have that luxury. Moreover, if something dies, they just get another and move on with life. They aren?t saving their lunch money (sometimes literally for some folks) for months to afford something above a low end Vortex or Burris. They?re sticking ACOG, EOTech, Nightforce, S&B, etc. on, not as an endorsement, but because that?s what they?re issued. Same with Colt, KAC, etc.
And guess what? They all still bitch about their stuff jamming, breaking, less than desirably accurate, too much training to run as well as they?d like, heavy, etc.
It?s a toss up.
Still, in order to be adopted they all had to meet some standard. And yes, the military can still accomplish its mission with a few guys having broken, busted, or faulty optics/rifles, what have you. Which points towards a previous point about John Q. Public having higher standards.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
SouthPaw
02-06-2019, 19:30
Hopefully no one here use those cheap plastic pmags. You know the ones that PSA uses as packing peanuts on their sale items.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/hornady-frontier-5-56-nato-m193-55gr-1000-rounds-bulk-ten-magpul-pmag-30-5-56-30-round-magazines.html
LOL.
I knew something was going on with this thread.
5 pages on this thread topics got me to think that there was some kind of debate going on.
[Pop]
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 19:43
Still, in order to be adopted they all had to meet some standard.
I'm gonna guess you've never been in the military. Or, if you were, maybe you got really lucky with the systems, equipment, etc...that you had to use.
I'm gonna guess you've never been in the military. Or, if you were, maybe you got really lucky with the systems, equipment, etc...that you had to use.
I was in the Marine Corps from 2007 - 2012.
Infantry Rifleman, Team Leader, Close Quarters Battle Team Member, Fleet Assistance Program MP. I?ve seen some of the worst egregious examples of busted gear you could imagine, and some of the best, as well as people that didn?t understand how the logistical process actually worked and how to make sure they had good kit. If your stuff was broke, get it fixed. Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.
My issued service FN, Colt, Bennelli, and Beretta weapons worked when; parts were replaced when worn or when they were recommended for replacement, proper amounts of lubricant was utilized, bad magazines were destroyed and new ones forcibly issued.
If the fallacy of lowest bidder were actually true, the Marine Corps would have issued BCA, PSA, High Point, and Stoegers. They didn?t. Do you know why? They wouldn?t have made it through half or more of the testing protocols necessary to be adopted for general issue.
Little Dutch
02-06-2019, 20:20
Hopefully no one here use those cheap plastic pmags. You know the ones that PSA uses as packing peanuts on their sale items.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/hornady-frontier-5-56-nato-m193-55gr-1000-rounds-bulk-ten-magpul-pmag-30-5-56-30-round-magazines.html
This made me laugh, then immediately made me sad. I now live in a state that bars me from purchasing these. They Are basically giving away AR mags and I can?t order one.
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 20:42
I wasn't talking about the "fallacy of the lowest bidder". I was referring to how all too often people who don't use equipment, systems, etc...are the people who are in charge of acquiring it for those who do and frequently have no idea what's really needed. I even see that in the company I work for.
So, sure...stuff has to meet standards. But who sets the standards? Are they really standards that need to be met? I would argue that frequently, they're not. That was my experience in the military anyway, and it was the same in my LE career and it's the same in the civilian sector.
Scanker19
02-06-2019, 21:07
Objective facts do. Not me.
It?s almost like these videos were made for you, and several others in this thread.
Figuring out what sources to trust for good info
https://youtu.be/OSX55_qyIhc
AR-15?s are like Legos (Not)
https://youtu.be/zEDcpIIbeMs
It works for me!
https://youtu.be/i6yq_WiuwSU
Any gun is better than no gun!
https://youtu.be/mVCNfB_gogI
To each his own.
https://youtu.be/19BYOtJkZKs
AR-15 Mfg. QA/QC
https://youtu.be/p9uApV0IfbU
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
These butt nuggets should apply all of their gun wisdom into buying better quality cameras. I tried to watch them but it was just a video of of the basic outline of this entire thread. They're gun snobs plain and simple. Theres a huge difference between a high end gun meant to do high end things, and low end guns that work as intended. And frankly I don't see the difference in using a low end gun to do low end stuff, and paying too much for a high end gun to do low end stuff. I'm concerned about who gave out the license of "experts" on what is junk and what isn't. You say objective facts yet these guys provided none unless you count the hearsay and conjecture which are kinds of evidence. Saying a Honda accord can't compete with a Tesla therefore the honda is junk is obtuse at best. It's the age old judging a fish's intelligence by it's ability to climb a tree.
Scanker19
02-06-2019, 21:16
Furthermore these gun snobs are the gun Equivalent of people that proudly exclaim "I don't eat mcdonalds." Slow clap.... awesome captain high brow. Just enjoy what you enjoy and who cares if people don't enjoy the same thing. I don't like expensive guns, for what I do I don't see the point. You may, but judging my/our/their purchases as junk simply because fucking SOCOM doesn't use them or a gun smith doesn't is basically the argument from authority fallacy.
Jesus I hate gun snobs. I went to a gun store today for the last time in Albuquerque. I asked if he had any promags for a Marlin 795. His response. I DON'T SELL PROMAGS. Well excuse the fuck out of me. sorry I wanted to give you money. You see once, Last week I had a 10/22 with 2 BX25 mags that wouldn't fire more than 5 rounds without a jam. So excuse me Gun snob if my $140 795 made with he same pot metal that the astronauts use in space, and my $12 promag 25rd mag functions at near 100% reliability.
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 21:19
Thank you.
These butt nuggets should apply all of their gun wisdom into buying better quality cameras. I tried to watch them but it was just a video of of the basic outline of this entire thread. They're gun snobs plain and simple. Theres a huge difference between a high end gun meant to do high end things, and low end guns that work as intended. And frankly I don't see the difference in using a low end gun to do low end stuff, and paying too much for a high end gun to do low end stuff. I'm concerned about who gave out the license of "experts" on what is junk and what isn't. You say objective facts yet these guys provided none unless you count the hearsay and conjecture which are kinds of evidence. Saying a Honda accord can't compete with a Tesla therefore the honda is junk is obtuse at best. It's the age old judging a fish's intelligence by it's ability to climb a tree.
[emoji2357] It?s a Podcast. The audio is the important part. Sometimes, people who sound like they know what they?re talking about actually do.
If a chef buys good knives, and recommends home chefs do as well, does that make him a knife snob?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Simply an anecdotal post:
To qualify first, the rifles of mine that get the most use (read: abuse) are all definitely non-Tier 1.
These are the rifles that see the most trigger pulls, loaned to family and friends at the range, lots of rounds down the pipe, and not religiously cleaned. Lubed and wiped down maybe, if they are lucky.
The worst problem I've had between 4 "beater" rifles is one lower which had some pin walking issues that were resolved with kns pins. And that lower was bought used from a fellow forum member. No idea how many round he put through it.
Not had any problems with any of the several PSA uppers I've used, right out of the box with a couple patches down the tube in case of excess lube. BCGs from PSA, AIM Surplus, etc. caused no issues either.
Maybe I've just been lucky.
On the other side of the coin, one of my long time buddies definitely fits into the "saving up til I can afford the one I want" camp. And that usually means big name and matching price tag.
He's had more problems with the Kimbers he loves so much. But that's for another thread. His ar of choice was DD.
His first day on the range with it, nothing but issues. Fortunately for him, his younger cousin (an active SEAL at the time) was with him at the range to help him with the sighting in.
I really wish I could have been with them, so I could have seen his face the multiple times his cousin had to mortar it to eject stuck cases. Brass cased, factory ammo. Reputable brand names.
I guess it has loosened up some, to be fairly reliable since then, but he still can't (or at least won't) shoot steel cased ammo due to sticking. IIRC, there are even select brands of brass ammo he doesn't buy.
I'm not making a statement of any sort, or passing any judgements. Just my first person experience between top shelf and bargain basement assemblies of, presumably, some of the same components.
YMMV
Sent from somewhere...
I thought only garbage guns we capable of shooting garbage steel case ammo.
Thanks to cheap (but reliable) ARs,I own some.
20+ years ago,I probably had to cough up 1000* for old late 80s colt ar.
*1000 in 1999 money is most likely about 2400 now.
(Yes. By doing the stand 3.6% compound,it is exactly double, but NO...)
Scanker19
02-06-2019, 22:20
[emoji2357] It?s a Podcast. The audio is the important part. Sometimes, people who sound like they know what they?re talking about actually do.
If a chef buys good knives, and recommends home chefs do as well, does that make him a knife snob?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Absolutely not. But once he crosses the line into saying or implying that one is a shitty cook or a generally bad person for using crappy knives then he is. If someone can just just as good of a job, slice a tomato just as thin, then why not. It works for them. Chances are the home chef isn't cooking as much or making a living on his crappy knives, nor is the weekend mechanic that uses harbor freight, or the weekend operator that uses a PSA AR.
I thought only garbage guns we capable of shooting garbage steel case ammo.
Not true, My Seekins only runs Tula Steel case stuff.
Seekins is like Tier-3 at best.
Bailey Guns
02-06-2019, 22:43
I don't/won't own an AR that won't shoot steel cased (usually Russian stuff) ammo. I rarely shoot Tier 1 ammo.
RE: the videos. When the one guy started in on the "it works for me" thing and basically saying people were idiots for saying that, I pretty much tuned right out because he was full of shit with his argument. I had a Colt 6721 I bought used from a guy at the PD. He estimated he had about 15k rounds thru it and it looked like it. It was a ban-era LE restricted gun and I paid him a whopping $300 because it wasn't transferable without a letterhead. But it shot well and was utterly reliable. I put another 10k to 12k of department ammo thru it over some years and carried it on duty. I was at a Thunder Ranch class in TX and the trigger pin broke. Up until that point, it did work for me. And the guy before me. But according to that guy if I said "that's never happened before" (which it hadn't) or "it works for me" (which it did) that's some sort of character flaw.
I also laugh when guys start talking about mil-spec this and mil-spec that.
I also laugh when guys start talking about mil-spec this and mil-spec that.
Some people think mil-spec means the best of the best. Truth is it was the best the government was willing to pay for.
Great-Kazoo
02-06-2019, 23:32
Absolutely not. But once he crosses the line into saying or implying that one is a shitty cook or a generally bad person for using crappy knives then he is. If someone can just just as good of a job, slice a tomato just as thin, then why not. It works for them. Chances are the home chef isn't cooking as much or making a living on his crappy knives, nor is the weekend mechanic that uses harbor freight, or the weekend operator that uses a PSA AR.
f.
What's really sad, besides this thread still going is.. The OP having no personal hands on experience with the BCA rifle. Has been nothing but shit talking them since page 1..
He's wondering why i'm defending them. Well that answer already mentioned, by me and a few others is. I own a few of their bbls, and uppers. They work, don't have an issue and best of all. I can say that, as someone (again) who actually owns the product.
Not some tier 1 hard charger, with X military under his belt, who heard it from someone on line. Pathetic, at best.
AND, the OP has joined my Blocked list.
I went out with a rifle this last December. It murdered a deer at 175-200 yards.
The entry was very close to where I was aiming.
No top tier brand on the barrel. Must have been a fluke.
Oh, on a Redfield scope. (Second hand Leopold)
Bailey Guns
02-07-2019, 07:20
You're lucky you came back alive, dude...
Yeah. I won?t go into deer country without a tier-1 rifle. Dangerous.
BPTactical
02-07-2019, 08:49
Yeah. I won?t go into deer country without a tier-1 rifle. Dangerous.
I won't go into Cougar country without a chokehold......
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 08:59
I won't go into Cougar country without a chokehold......
I carry a consent form and condoms . Cover all my bases, so to speak.
BlasterBob
02-07-2019, 09:10
I carry a consent form and condoms . Cover all my bases, so to speak.
Hope you are accompanied by a Notary to witness the signatures. [blaster]
Not_A_Llama
02-07-2019, 09:14
Jesus tapdancing christ. So roughly serious here:
Everyone makes shit sometimes.
Some folks make more than others.
Some buyers really like buying name brand.
Brand doesn’t much matter much if you test the shit you buy.
You cannot know the quality of what you have purchased without testing.
Other people’s tests (“reviews”) can be useful knowledge to add to yours.
I have shit from every goddamn tier, and some of it is worthwhile and some is not. Test. Your. Shit. No matter the cost.
I don’t know if any of you hang out on other forums, but it’s common to see threads like “I bought a Kimber for self defense and it cost $2000 so I know it’s quality. Its nice paying for peace of mind. It’s going in the nightstand now”.
Overall brand quality and price paid means *nothing* to the example you have in your hands. Your individual sample has discrete attributes, not the statistical mean of its brand-mates. N=1 is the hardest sample size to derive group information from, and the easiest to derive individual information from.
If your ammo budget doesn’t exceed your gear budget, you’re fucking around and none of this really matters.
How to know if BCA is the right choice for you as an AR-15.
A. You live below the poverty line.
B. You have no cash for anything but bills.
C. You had to give up coffee, cigarettes, or alcohol for a year just to afford one.
D. You will never take it to a class where you might shoot more than 300 rounds in a single day.
E. It?s a fun range toy.
F. It will be a non dangerous game hunting rifle.
G. You?re going to tear it apart, check everything, replace what needs replaced, and don?t care that you will end up spending as much doing so as on a nicer rifle.
H. You don?t get offended easily.
I. You like to collect rifles in large quantities, but rarely shoot more than 1,000 rounds through any one of them in a year or less time.
J. When you see the BCA sale ads you can hear Sarah Mclachlan singing ?In the arms of an angel?
K. Your uses do not include defense of anyone but yourself.
L. You?ve convinced yourself that cheaper is always better.
M. You believe any Mfg. selling AR-15?s for more than BCA are just selling people a brand.
N. You believe an AR-15 is an AR-15, is an AR-15.
O. You?re a gunsmith that?s has returning business due to BCA.
P. You?ve met nice illegal immigrants.
Q. Your friends BCA has fired 400 rounds and been fine. Even though nobody knows in what context those rounds were fired, (over what duration, rate of Fire, what just fine means etc.)
R. You?ve never stressed tested a single firearm in your life, and you aren?t about to start now!
S. You own an AR-15 because of the gubbmint, Civil War, ANTIFA etc and your BCA will do just fine against Commies using lowest bidder equipment.
T. You believe that bolt speed, ejection patterns, gas port sizes, buffer weights, springs, head space, chamber specs, twist rates, and staked castle nuts are fake terms invented by BCM, DD, KAC, and Hodge to trick the masses.
U. You don?t like questions about firearms that start with ?Why?
V. You believe forge marks are an indicator of reliability and quality.
W. You believe that there are no such thing as firearm experts, just Gun snobs.
X. You believe AR-15?s are like legos.
Y. You wanted to try something different than your PSA, DPMS, S&W, Anderson Arms, Bushmaster, Windham Weaponry, or other low quality/?high value? brand.
Z. Tinkering with AR-15?s is a fun hobby! (It is)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
I won't go into Cougar country without a chokehold......
I usually just tell them I'm married and point to the ring. But I guess a chokehold would work, I've never tried it.
--
This thread. [fail]
I almost posted a genuine opinion last night with some levity but realized there is no way to redeem this trainwreck.
I’m curious about a few things:
1) how many on the list meets the threshold for buying BCA?
2) is that completes only, or some combo of parts, or just even a single part?
3) what *should* someone buy if money is no object?
Not_A_Llama
02-07-2019, 09:48
How to know if BCA is the right choice for you as an AR-15.
A. You live below the poverty line.
B. You have no cash for anything but bills.
C. You had to give up coffee, cigarettes, or alcohol for a year just to afford one.
D. You will never take it to a class where you might shoot more than 300 rounds in a single day.
E. It?s a fun range toy.
F. It will be a non dangerous game hunting rifle.
G. You?re going to tear it apart, check everything, replace what needs replaced, and don?t care that you will end up spending as much doing so as on a nicer rifle.
I. You like to collect rifles in large quantities, but rarely shoot more than 1,000 rounds through any one of them in a year or less time.
Q. Your friends BCA has fired 400 rounds and been fine. Even though nobody knows in what context those rounds were fired, (over what duration, rate of Fire, what just fine means etc.)
S. You own an AR-15 because of the gubbmint, Civil War, ANTIFA etc and your BCA will do just fine against Commies using lowest bidder equipment.
Z. Tinkering with AR-15?s is a fun hobby! (It is)
So, sifting out the bizarre snark and points that counter your arguments, it looks like 99%+ of shooters should be buying BCA? Do you even know people who don't identify as "sheepdogs"? (Also, why did you even leave the military if this is your mindset?)
Damn, dude. You got some vitriol for a brand you don't have any experience with. I literally own barrels made by BCA and BCM sitting next to each other in the same safe. DD, Colt, KAC, Triarc, and some stuff made on blanks from these fly-by-night shops called "Bartlein" and "Krieger", too. There isn't a difference in reliability between any of them, and accuracy differences only come out with handloads. If you're not handloading (are you?), you'll never know the difference.
This isn't Olympic Arms and American Spirit Arms in the 90s anymore. Everyone today is running CNC, everyone is cutting generous chambers, everyone is cutting big gas ports. Purple anodizing isn't a thing anymore, and nobody has a cast lower.
I think you need to gain some more personal experience (and not hearsay and supposition) before you generate opinions as strong as you have.
You've been representing yourself as holding the consensus of "experts" in this process, but I don't think you have it.
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 09:50
Some people think mil-spec means the best of the best. Truth is it was the best the government was willing to pay for.
"Mil-Spec" means it meets the MINIMUM standards for the military.
Kind of like scoring 180 on the PT test [for those not in the Army, that's the MINIMUM passing score.]
Bailey Guns
02-07-2019, 10:12
AND, the OP has joined my Blocked list.
Too bad. You missed his best post yet. But, I think I'm with you.
The only thing worse than a gun snob is an elitist gun snob. Gonna be pretty hard to ever take anything he says seriously after that list.
I sure as hell cant compete with his net worth, operatorness, gun testing savvyness or many other things. I'm out.
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 10:14
I went out with a rifle this last December. It murdered a deer at 175-200 yards.
The entry was very close to where I was aiming.
No top tier brand on the barrel. Must have been a fluke.
Oh, on a Redfield scope. (Second hand Leopold)
You're lucky you came back alive, dude...
Obviously wasn't a "Tier 1" deer. Most likely a Tier 3 or maybe a really low Tier 2.
SouthPaw
02-07-2019, 10:15
How to know if BCA is the right choice for you as an AR-15.
A. You live below the poverty line.
B. You have no cash for anything but bills.
C. You had to give up coffee, cigarettes, or alcohol for a year just to afford one.
D. You will never take it to a class where you might shoot more than 300 rounds in a single day.
E. It?s a fun range toy.
F. It will be a non dangerous game hunting rifle.
G. You?re going to tear it apart, check everything, replace what needs replaced, and don?t care that you will end up spending as much doing so as on a nicer rifle.
H. You don?t get offended easily.
I. You like to collect rifles in large quantities, but rarely shoot more than 1,000 rounds through any one of them in a year or less time.
J. When you see the BCA sale ads you can hear Sarah Mclachlan singing ?In the arms of an angel?
K. Your uses do not include defense of anyone but yourself.
L. You?ve convinced yourself that cheaper is always better.
M. You believe any Mfg. selling AR-15?s for more than BCA are just selling people a brand.
N. You believe an AR-15 is an AR-15, is an AR-15.
O. You?re a gunsmith that?s has returning business due to BCA.
P. You?ve met nice illegal immigrants.
Q. Your friends BCA has fired 400 rounds and been fine. Even though nobody knows in what context those rounds were fired, (over what duration, rate of Fire, what just fine means etc.)
R. You?ve never stressed tested a single firearm in your life, and you aren?t about to start now!
S. You own an AR-15 because of the gubbmint, Civil War, ANTIFA etc and your BCA will do just fine against Commies using lowest bidder equipment.
T. You believe that bolt speed, ejection patterns, gas port sizes, buffer weights, springs, head space, chamber specs, twist rates, and staked castle nuts are fake terms invented by BCM, DD, KAC, and Hodge to trick the masses.
U. You don?t like questions about firearms that start with ?Why?
V. You believe forge marks are an indicator of reliability and quality.
W. You believe that there are no such thing as firearm experts, just Gun snobs.
X. You believe AR-15?s are like legos.
Y. You wanted to try something different than your PSA, DPMS, S&W, Anderson Arms, Bushmaster, Windham Weaponry, or other low quality/?high value? brand.
Z. Tinkering with AR-15?s is a fun hobby! (It is)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
With this mindset, what type of vehicle do you drive? Surely you carry this through your day to day activities. Kroger brand?! GTFO! [LOL].
Little Dutch
02-07-2019, 10:27
I’m curious about a few things:
1) how many on the list meets the threshold for buying BCA?
2) is that completes only, or some combo of parts, or just even a single part?
3) what *should* someone buy if money is no object?
Good questions. I want to know too.
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 10:31
I?m curious about a few things:
...
3) what *should* someone buy if money is no object?
Obviously this: 77283
Do 3 rifles with 90% reliability equal 1 rifle with 99.9% reliability? [ROFL1]
Obviously this: 77283
People who can afford that have henchmen running tier 1 AR?s purchased from the ATF in Presidio, TX
Do 3 rifles with 90% reliability equal 1 rifle with 99.9% reliability? [ROFL1]
No. It?s not a linear scale.
Scanker19
02-07-2019, 11:18
Joe I’ll never block you. Promise. I’m always here for you.
Also in case anyone was wondering. Free porn is just as good and paid porn, fool me 20 times....
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 11:35
Joe I’ll never block you. Promise. I’m always here for you.
Also in case anyone was wondering. Free porn is just as good and paid porn, fool me 20 times....
Thank God ;)
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 11:36
With this mindset, what type of vehicle do you drive? Surely you carry this through your day to day activities. Kroger brand?! GTFO! [LOL].
Probably one of biblical proportions
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 11:59
People who can afford that have henchmen running tier 1 AR?s purchased from the ATF in Presidio, TX
Ah but are they Tier 1 henchmen?
Because clearly Tier 2 henchmen are for weekend posers, not serious Oper8r's!
buffalobo
02-07-2019, 13:15
So, sifting out the bizarre snark and points that counter your arguments, it looks like 99%+ of shooters should be buying BCA? Do you even know people who don't identify as "sheepdogs"? (Also, why did you even leave the military if this is your mindset?)
Damn, dude. You got some vitriol for a brand you don't have any experience with. I literally own barrels made by BCA and BCM sitting next to each other in the same safe. DD, Colt, KAC, Triarc, and some stuff made on blanks from these fly-by-night shops called "Bartlein" and "Krieger", too. There isn't a difference in reliability between any of them, and accuracy differences only come out with handloads. If you're not handloading (are you?), you'll never know the difference.
This isn't Olympic Arms and American Spirit Arms in the 90s anymore. Everyone today is running CNC, everyone is cutting generous chambers, everyone is cutting big gas ports. Purple anodizing isn't a thing anymore, and nobody has a cast lower.
I think you need to gain some more personal experience (and not hearsay and supposition) before you generate opinions as strong as you have.
You've been representing yourself as holding the consensus of "experts" in this process, but I don't think you have it.Been waiting for this post. ^^^
+1 and I don't have to give myself a month off.
Been thinking Joe has been trolling this thread and is not foolish enough to actually buy into the BS position he has been peddling.
BushMasterBoy
02-07-2019, 13:36
I am alone in the jungle and I have a knife. I am rich!
[snip]
Been thinking Joe has been trolling this thread and is not foolish enough to actually buy into the BS position he has been peddling.
Why I didn't post a serious opinion last night.
Can't believe this isn't locked.
And there's some serious bullshit going on in the world that could use the bandwidth.
Jesus forgives him
I disagree...
http://memegenerator.net/img/instances/12128753/raptor-jesus-disapproves.jpg
Tier-Schmear, buy the Rifle that fits it?s indented use. Butter knife for butter, steak knife for steak. ?But they?re all knives!?
What type of firearm you choose to buy should be determined by what that firearm?s role(s) will be.
Not all 1911?s are created equal, not all AR-15?s are created equal, not all Remington 700?s are created equal, not all 10/22?s are created equal, it?s almost a pattern.
I?m not an expert at firearms, but
I like to pay attention to those that are.
I haven?t called anyone names, cursed anyone out, or blocked anyone.
I care deeply about people that take firearm ownership and use seriously.
As far as I know, Jesus never tap danced.
Jesus has forgiven me, and you.
If you?re offended, why are you?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Why I didn't post a serious opinion last night.
Can't believe this isn't locked.
And there's some serious bullshit going on in the world that could use the bandwidth.
Not trolling at all. I hate trolls.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
If I were hunting trolls I wouldn?t feel comfortable with anything less than a tier-1 rifle. Elves and fairies I could probably use a tier-2 but trolls definitely a tier-1.
ChickNorris
02-07-2019, 15:21
You're hunting elves & fairies are ya now?
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 15:24
If I were hunting trolls I wouldn?t feel comfortable with anything less than a tier-1 rifle. Elves and fairies I could probably use a tier-2 but trolls definitely a tier-1.
Why are they fairies? Can't they be called gender indifferent wee folk with wings? The real question is, what load and caliber for trolls? Then there's the brass issue. Is hornady or lake city brass acceptable, or must it be Lapua?
This low income name calling really calls for a serious dialogue regarding ones everyday (as SP asked) actions.
If i have a T-1 rifle, must i use only 91 oct or greater fuel to validate ones stance?
Can the T-1 gun guy sneak a lower octane fuel and live with that on ones conscience ?
Maybe the hippies have won . All they did was contemplate their navel.
Here we're told we're not valid gun (OOPS) AR owners unless we have a T-1 rifle, then pay a smith to "Check It Out"
Because in the back of ones mind. That nagging question, Did i really get T-1 quality or have i swallowed the kool-aid.
Instead been able to purchase a sub $800 AR and still be accepted by my peers.
BTW: Generalissimo Francisco Franco is Still Dead!
When I was growing up you just called a fairy a fairy. Life was easier back then.
Not trolling at all. I hate trolls.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Then I would shut it down. Any points you have to make have been made.
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 15:38
Why are they fairies? Can't they be called gender indifferent wee folk with wings?
"Wee?"
What kind of size-normative BS is that?
Why do THEY have to be "wee?"
Maybe they're "NORMAL" size and the rest of us are hulking giants? You ever think about that?
No, you just think about yourself!
[ROFL1]
What about a Tier 1 AK? Surely ISIS uses top quality kit with all fighting they do.
Then I would shut it down. Any points you have to make have been made.
No way. I haven?t had this much fun in a while. I?ve probably laughed at more nonsense here than just about any other thread. I say as long as there?s no name calling or personal attacks we let it play out.
I?m curious about a few things:
1) how many on the list meets the threshold for buying BCA?
2) is that completes only, or some combo of parts, or just even a single part?
3) what *should* someone buy if money is no object?
1) One.
2) Completes rifles, complete upper, complete lowers.
3) If money was no object? Still depends on the role that rifle will fill. But IMO. Hodge Defense, the Company that makes the rifles that the USSS carries to protect and defend POTUS makes some of, If not the finest Direct Impingement AR-15 on planet earth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
When I was growing up you just called a fairy a fairy. Life was easier back then.
Are we talking homosexual fairy, or Irish folklore fairy?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Then I would shut it down. Any points you have to make have been made.
Just replying to folks, but you are more than likely right. If the mods want me to be post less, I can certainly do that. It?s really to bad about Jim, always liked that guy. Nice guy to chat with and someone that seemed pretty level headed. If ya talk to him, tell him no hard feelings on my part, and wish him well.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Are we talking homosexual fairy, or Irish folklore fairy?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
There?s a difference?
Just kidding. Obviously, mentioning fairies, elves, and trolls in my post I?m referring to mythical creatures.
I don?t judge people based on their sexual preference or race or religion. Or even on the ?cool factor? of their preferred firearms.
As long as it?s not Taurus. Friends don?t let friends shoot Taurus.
There?s a difference?
Just kidding. Obviously, mentioning fairies, elves, and trolls in my post I?m referring to mythical creatures.
I don?t judge people based on their sexual preference or race or religion. Or even on the ?cool factor? of their preferred firearms.
As long as it?s not Taurus. Friends don?t let friends shoot Taurus.
Lol, but you just did. My Taurus is the best! I got such a good deal on it, I rarely fire it, and I when I do it goes BANG every time! It?s a .45, so I don?t really have to be accurate, because
.45ACP! And they don?t make a .46. Also it?s basically just a handgun, so why pay more for any other handgun, they?re all the same amirite? Lol.
Ok, that one was for laughs I?ll admit it.
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
Yep, he types it in every time.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 16:50
Yep, he types it in every time.
?
Think i'm going to list the OP in favorite comedian thread.
Not_A_Llama
02-07-2019, 16:51
Yep, he types it in every time.
I loled.
No way. I haven?t had this much fun in a while. I?ve probably laughed at more nonsense here than just about any other thread. I say as long as there?s no name calling or personal attacks we let it play out.
A Tier0 guy wouldn't have time for this.
(Look what you made me do)
Just replying to folks, but you are more than likely right. If the mods want me to be post less, I can certainly do that. It?s really to bad about Jim, always liked that guy. Nice guy to chat with and someone that seemed pretty level headed. If ya talk to him, tell him no hard feelings on my part, and wish him well.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
??1 Timothy? ?2:5? ?
Those characters look like unicode. Are you a Russian? J/K.
It's post quality not quantity. I agree with some of what you said but not all of it. You're going to find that here. Make your point, move on.org.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 17:03
Now i'm worried about my 80% Glock and AR builds. Then there's the Form 1 suppressors i did [panic]
Oh well when life hands you lemons
You drink tequila.
Now i'm worried about my 80% Glock and AR builds. Then there's the Form 1 suppressors i did [panic]
Oh well when life hands you lemons
You drink tequila.
What kind of monster drinks tequila with lemons?
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 17:11
What kind of monster drinks tequila with lemons?
Tier - 4
I'm just a cut price person in a low budget land
ChickNorris
02-07-2019, 17:17
What kind of monster drinks tequila with lemons?
Yeah riiight... wth?
Martinjmpr
02-07-2019, 17:20
A Tier0 guy wouldn't have time for this.
(Look what you made me do)
The first rule of Tier 0 is you do not talk about Tier 0! [facepalm]
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 17:20
Yeah riiight... wth?
Frozen Margaritas.
Oops. alcohol. alcohol thread is < ^ > that way
SideShow Bob
02-07-2019, 17:28
What kind of monster drinks tequila with lemons?
You haven’t lived in the mid-west have you, specifically within a 15 mile distance either side of the Kansas / Missouri border from Nebraska to Oklahoma.
The first rule of Tier 0 is you do not talk about Tier 0! [facepalm]
DAMMIT!
[facepalm]
BushMasterBoy
02-07-2019, 18:28
Everybody knows the if you pull the trigger too hard on any AR-15...it will explode!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXmxbS9i7jg
Probably one of biblical proportions
So....an Accord.
So....an Accord.
Haha. No. Just a 4Runner and a beater Kia. I willingly admit I?m not a vehicle guy. I would certainly talk to people that are, before assuming what the guy at the used car lot told me was fact. My Dad is a mechanic, my brother a licensed auto mechanic, do market research. Otherwise I might end up on a 4x4 forum telling folks my newly acquired Civic was just as good as a appropriately kitted out Jeep, or 4Runner for Rock Climbing.
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
Acts 2:1 King James Version (KJV)
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Went from a your gun is poop thread to a Holy War....this thread delivers![Coffee]
buffalobo
02-07-2019, 20:10
Being the self proclaimed "King of the cheap guns" my first reaction was Nukes and a can 'o corn.
Had to keep it around as proof we, as a group could have the conversation and not degenerate into butt hurt central.
4Runner could be a low end tier-1 but more likely a tier-2 vehicle.
No self respecting driver would ever admit to owning a Kia.
If you aren?t driving some sort of high end Mercedes then your vehicle is crap and you shouldn?t trust it to get you from point A to point B. Spending such a low amount of money on a vehicle shows you really know nothing about vehicles and are probably just better off taking public transportation before your crappy vehicles leave you stranded just when you need them most.
Just saying.
hurley842002
02-07-2019, 20:22
I just want to know if a person can still purchase from BCA, I have a tier 3 Ruger lower that still needs an upper, and the Bear creek seems like a great value.
I just want to know if a person can still purchase from BCA, I have a tier 3 Ruger lower that still needs an upper, and the Bear creek seems like a great value.
Someone wasn't paying attention.
[facepalm]
hurley842002
02-07-2019, 20:39
Someone wasn't paying attention.
[facepalm]No, I've been following the whole thread.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 20:42
No, I've been following the whole thread.
But have you been paying attention.
hurley842002
02-07-2019, 20:44
But have you been paying attention.I have, and I'm not a tier 1 operator like some on the forum, so I think a BCA would work just fine for my needs.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 20:50
Being the self proclaimed "King of the cheap guns" my first reaction was Nukes and a can 'o corn.
Had to keep it around as proof we, as a group could have the conversation and not degenerate into butt hurt central.
Well it needs to, so it can be locked and i can unblock joe.
Did i read a quote someone mentioned KIA? Pleeze don't say it was the Tier 1, I pity people with poverty builds.
I did build a 16" x39 AR and the most expensive part was the binary trigger. I can say that x39 BCA HB takes a lot of abuse. Between the (NEVER Works in an AR chamber) steel case wolf and old lacquer norinco. With B3 trigger, i'm surprised the low budget bbl has held up so well.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 20:54
I have, and I'm not a tier 1 operator like some on the forum, so I think a BCA would work just fine for my needs.
Veterans get 10% off list price. Bringing that build down to maybe $175, with s&h You should do a x39 build, they're real fun.
Enough i haven't busted out the AK's in a while. When the Binary 3 for AK's drops a lot more, watch out whirled .
Buy a GM or other under $100 AK bbl and smoke those tins of x39 i still have.
I just want to know if a person can still purchase from BCA, I have a tier 3 Ruger lower that still needs an upper, and the Bear creek seems like a great value.
You probably alredy know about the Palmetto people. But get on the PSA email list and eventually they will send you an invitation to buy a Tier 2 upper. I've seen them as low as 199. Complete. Mine came with a note that reminded me to shoot alone, in the dark. So I wont be judged.
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 20:55
You probably alredy know about the Palmetto people. But get on the PSA email list and eventually they will send you an invitation to buy a Tier 2 upper. I've seen them as low as 269. Complete. Mine came with a note that reminded me to shoot alone, in the dark. So I wont be judged.
I'd dredd that.
I actually don?t own a vehicle. The 4 Runner is my wife?s, she owned it prior to our marriage. The Kia is a family member?s that?s stuck in NYC until she?s out of college, we?re car sitting for.
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
I actually don?t own a vehicle.
Blew your wad on all of those tier 1 rifles and now you?re too broke to own a vehicle?
Scanker19
02-07-2019, 21:27
I own a Honda Accord and a Kia Forte....no big deal.
4Runner could be a low end tier-1 but more likely a tier-2 vehicle.
No self respecting driver would ever admit to owning a Kia.
If you aren?t driving some sort of high end Mercedes then your vehicle is crap and you shouldn?t trust it to get you from point A to point B. Spending such a low amount of money on a vehicle shows you really know nothing about vehicles and are probably just better off taking public transportation before your crappy vehicles leave you stranded just when you need them most.
Just saying.
Everybody knows the 4Runner is a Tier3 vehicle. Tacoma is Tier 2ish
The Toyota War is Tier 1, with a technical option of Tier 0.
Bro, do you even car?
SouthPaw
02-07-2019, 21:48
4Runner could be a low end tier-1 but more likely a tier-2 vehicle.
No self respecting driver would ever admit to owning a Kia.
If you aren?t driving some sort of high end Mercedes then your vehicle is crap and you shouldn?t trust it to get you from point A to point B. Spending such a low amount of money on a vehicle shows you really know nothing about vehicles and are probably just better off taking public transportation before your crappy vehicles leave you stranded just when you need them most.
Just saying.
He spent all his money on tier 1 rifles and left himself a kia/no vehicle budget. I appreciate the honesty as I was guessing it was a Hyundai.
Second question - Do you own a Costco or Sams club membership? Do you ever buy off brand items such as Kroger, Equate, house brands or the like?
Third Question - What is your sidearm of choice?
I saw a torture test video where the Canik TP9 out performed the VP9 [panic]. I don't own a VP9 but the TP9 I have runs like a top. Anyone got an Elite for sale?
Great-Kazoo
02-07-2019, 21:49
Everybody knows the 4Runner is a Tier3 vehicle. Tacoma is Tier 2ish
The Toyota War is Tier 1, with a technical option of Tier 0.
Bro, do you even car?
Oh great next thing you know Jer will pop in, taking this tread way OT.
SouthPaw
02-07-2019, 21:51
Everybody knows the 4Runner is a Tier3 vehicle. Tacoma is Tier 2ish
The Toyota War is Tier 1, with a technical option of Tier 0.
Bro, do you even car?
Jer owns both a Tacoma and Kia; he is the ultimate tier oper8tor. (He thought he was getting out of this thread without having to say anything).
Oh great next thing you know Jer will pop in, taking this tread way OT.
Isn?t he the crossfit guy? I don?t think we?ve discussed the various tier levels of crossfit in this thread yet.
Bailey Guns
02-07-2019, 22:04
My Dad is a mechanic, my brother a licensed auto mechanic...
Mona Lisa Vito...because Joe_K needs a title.
I think Jer sold most cars and replaced with Tesla.
Mona Lisa Vito...because Joe_K needs a title.
Sorry, not getting the reference.
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
Blew your wad on all of those tier 1 rifles and now you?re too broke to own a vehicle?
If you don?t count my 5 year olds .22 LR, I currently own one rifle. Saving for a second, although it will most likely be a 12.5 AR Pistol w/ SBA-3.
I spend most of my ?Gun? money on ammo. Mostly shoot handguns as it is the most perishable shooting discipline.
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
He spent all his money on tier 1 rifles and left himself a kia/no vehicle budget. I appreciate the honesty as I was guessing it was a Hyundai.
Second question - Do you own a Costco or Sams club membership? Do you ever buy off brand items such as Kroger, Equate, house brands or the like?
Third Question - What is your sidearm of choice?
I saw a torture test video where the Canik TP9 out performed the VP9 [panic]. I don't own a VP9 but the TP9 I have runs like a top. Anyone got an Elite for sale?
I haven?t heard much good about Hyundai, would love to know what?s a good option as a decent small SUV though, leaning towards a RAV4. When the 4Runner dies looking at getting a Taco.
Costco and Sams club, Kroger/King Soopers, Safeway are all a bit too much $ for my blood. The wife and I pick try and pick out decent food, and try and avoid as much processed stuff as possible. Not sure what that has to do with AR-15?s or Firearms in general.
Currently I?m using a Gen 5 Glock 34 with Ameri-Glo blacked out steel sights. Saving up for an Aimpoint P-1.
But I like FUNCTIONING 1911?s, 2011?s, Berettas, CZ?s, FN?s, Glocks, Sigs, and S&W?s.
Current setup.
77288
Eventually get it set up like this, except an ACRO and keep my X-300U.
77289
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
Hyundai's are pretty solid now a days
Hyundai's are pretty solid now a days
What?s a good Hyundai small SUV?
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
Oh great next thing you know Jer will pop in, taking this tread way OT.
Did the OP say something negative about Tesla or something? [Coffee]
Sorry, not getting the reference.
I did...and I actually laughed out loud.
What?s a good Hyundai small SUV?
?Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.?
Joshua 1:9
I'll check with family, but I think the Santa Fe comes with over 300hp now. Santa Fe has always been the flagship SUV. It might have gotten too large though. I believe Hyundai had surpassed Kia, so between the two, go Hyundai. Still not Toyota for of road though.
Great-Kazoo
02-08-2019, 00:34
I think Jer sold most cars and replaced with Tesla.
electrifying
* I usually own tier 6-8 on reflex/reddot/prism electronic sights.
I made a New Years resolution to go tier-free.
I made a New Years resolution to go tier-free.
Have you tried Blue Force Gear’s new baby shampoo?
It’s made and endorsed by a former Delta guy, but the arfcom reviews from the fat and balding, unwashed peasantry are pretty good.
My favorite scent is Government Issued. First time I tried it, I cried a little.
Bailey Guns
02-08-2019, 07:57
lol'ing
I haven?t heard much good about Hyundai, would love to know what?s a good option as a decent small SUV though, leaning towards a RAV4.
Do yourself a favor and test drive a Mazda CX-5 before you buy a RAV4. Stay far away from recent CRV unless you don't mind gas in your oil.
Do yourself a favor and test drive a Mazda CX-5 before you buy a RAV4. Stay far away from recent CRV unless you don't mind gas in your oil.
A CX-5 was one of the vehicles we test drove before we bought my wife?s Rogue. I distinctly remember we didn?t get far down the road on our test drive before we headed back. The road noise on that thing was terrible compared to other small SUVs.
When I was younger and of limited means, I had to buy "Near Tier". Another Plus one for checking out Mazda.
Do yourself a favor and test drive a Mazda CX-5 before you buy a RAV4. Stay far away from recent CRV unless you don't mind gas in your oil.
Thanks. Won?t be a brand new anything. Probably 2016 at the newest.
Requirements:
Reliable.
Decent room for 5 passengers including two in car seats.
Hatchback for loading/unloading.
Rear seat fold flat for cargo/sleeping in vehicle.
Above 20 MPG highway.
Decent off road capabilities.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Scanker19
02-08-2019, 09:10
The derailment has been derailed.
https://youtu.be/4WjpzubCoBo
hollohas
02-08-2019, 09:15
One of the biggest derailed threads ever. ;)
One of the biggest derailed threads ever. ;)
Eh, if we cannot talk about stuff people dont like, might as well be the post whore thread now.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
Good luck with an SUV that gets over 20 mpg on highway. I'm sure there is something out there though. I can barely do that in my van, but that's probably more my driving than anything.
The derailment has been derailed.
https://youtu.be/4WjpzubCoBo
I went through the YouTube comments when that came out and as expected the Jeep Is The Only Tier guys were shitting down both legs with excitement at the opportunity to trash that video.
hurley842002
02-08-2019, 10:19
Good luck with an SUV that gets over 20 mpg on highway. I'm sure there is something out there though. I can barely do that in my van, but that's probably more my driving than anything.Hit 23 mpg in my tank of an SUV (Xterra), on the way to California last year.
Back on topic(ish)
Senora Socialist saw the ICE raid on BCA and wants to make sure that affordable firearm parts are still available.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-calls-to-abolish-ice-says-latinos-must-be-exempt-from-immigration-laws-because-they-are-native-to-us.amp
What a trip. I?m in a way kind of glad she?s become the face of the left.
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
hollohas
02-08-2019, 10:41
I went through the YouTube comments when that came out and as expected the Jeep Is The Only Tier guys were shitting down both legs with excitement at the opportunity to trash that video.Some Jeep guys are so stuckup it's funny. I went up Red Cone a few years back along with a guy in his basically stock Wrangler and another guy in a VERY old POS Cherokee with nothing but a cheap lift kit. On a particularly rocky spot, I got out to help guide the Wrangler through the rocks. He was only on two wheels at points as he worked his way through. Some very serious Jeep guys and their Rubicons with tens of thousands of add-ons were parked nearby drinking beer. One of those guys comes by and says "does he even have lockers bro?". I told him I didn't know but probably not, it's just stock. He then says, "well, that's not smart. We'll pull you out when you get stuck."
Cool. Thanks.
We got through the rocks with ease and continued on our way to having a fun day wheeling without even getting close to stuck anywhere on the trail.
Some guys make off-roading a lot harder (expensive) than it needs to be. Cool if that's your hobby, but don't be a tool about it.
Martinjmpr
02-08-2019, 11:00
I'll check with family, but I think the Santa Fe comes with over 300hp now. Santa Fe has always been the flagship SUV. It might have gotten too large though. I believe Hyundai had surpassed Kia, so between the two, go Hyundai. Still not Toyota for of road though.
Funny thing but Kia actually made a V-8 AWD SUV for about 1 year (2008 I think.) Called the Borrego. From what I've heard it was a beast but they unfortunately introduced it right at the time when fuel prices were spiking so they dropped it like a hot potato.
Martinjmpr
02-08-2019, 11:02
A CX-5 was one of the vehicles we test drove before we bought my wife?s Rogue. I distinctly remember we didn?t get far down the road on our test drive before we headed back. The road noise on that thing was terrible compared to other small SUVs.
We test drove one when shopping for the wife's new vehicle and I have to concur. Also besides being noisy the ride was very stiff. I guess that's supposed to make it feel like a sports car but it just felt really uncomfortable to us. We ended up with a CR-V which is still pretty loud inside but not as bad as the Mazda.
I've run into that a lot and is the main reason I don't like wheeling with groups. Some douche is lecturing you about "better imagine what it'll be like to be towed down this trail of you break your rig, so you need to be careful!" while you're just sitting there doing nothing waiting for your turn. Meanwhile, you can hardly hear him because the people he came with are busy trying to power through a rock garden and dragging their oil pan and diff on every sharp rock along the way.
Hit 23 mpg in my tank of an SUV (Xterra), on the way to California last year.
That's the only way I can get over 20, a long road trip and cruise control set at old lady speeds. Otherwise it's 16-19 mpg.
Martinjmpr
02-08-2019, 11:07
Some Jeep guys are so stuckup it's funny. I went up Red Cone a few years back along with a guy in his basically stock Wrangler and another guy in a VERY old POS Cherokee with nothing but a cheap lift kit. On a particularly rocky spot, I got out to help guide the Wrangler through the rocks. He was only on two wheels at points as he worked his way through. Some very serious Jeep guys and their Rubicons with tens of thousands of add-ons were parked nearby drinking beer. One of those guys comes by and says "does he even have lockers bro?". I told him I didn't know but probably not, it's just stock. He then says, "well, that's not smart. We'll pull you out when you get stuck."
Cool. Thanks.
We got through the rocks with ease and continued on our way to having a fun day wheeling without even getting close to stuck anywhere on the trail.
Some guys make off-roading a lot harder (expensive) than it needs to be. Cool if that's your hobby, but don't be a tool about it.
I've done Red Cone three times. First time in a stock Tacoma 5 speed with no lockers, 2nd time in a stock 4runner with a rear E-locker and third time in the wife's stock 4 cyl YJ Wrangler with no lockers.
Red Cone isn't a difficult trail. It just takes a little intestinal fortitude and faith in your vehicle to go down that first drop from the top when all you can see is sky. Other than that - piece of cake.
Now Schofield - that's one I won't do again. [panic]
Martinjmpr
02-08-2019, 11:08
Good luck with an SUV that gets over 20 mpg on highway. I'm sure there is something out there though. I can barely do that in my van, but that's probably more my driving than anything.
20 on the highway should be achievable in any mid-sized SUV. Hell I can get 18.5 on the highway in my Suburban. It's in the city that stop-and-go driving kills my MPG.
I get about 22mpg hwy in my Ram 1500 crew cab with a 5.7l Hemi. Rear seats have crazy leg room. It's like having an SUV with a bed in back.
I just wish it would fit in my garage.
20 on the highway should be achievable in any mid-sized SUV. Hell I can get 18.5 on the highway in my Suburban. It's in the city that stop-and-go driving kills my MPG.
Or better if you do 65mph. My burb gets average of 15.6 per the built in meter. Approx half/half highway and stop and go while commuting.
Would love to have a Dodge truck, just can?t afford one of those Tier 1/ Tier 2 trucks. I almost choke the other day when the resident Dodge Ram/ Diesel guy said that the new Ford Diesels are more durable/reliable from a power plant perspective. [emoji6]
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
hollohas
02-08-2019, 12:19
Red Cone isn't a difficult trail. It just takes a little intestinal fortitude and faith in your vehicle to go down that first drop from the top when all you can see is sky. Other than that - piece of cake.
Absolutely agree Red Cone is not difficult. But it sure is fun and has an incredible view.
It's a larger SUV than you guys are discussing and is def not for off road, but I absolutely LOVE my (wife's) Explorer Sport. 365 hp twin turbo is fun. Only other larger SUV that I have personally driven that was sportier is the BMW X5M and IMO that thing was sketchy. 567hp and 553 lb-ft is nuts in a vehicle that big. The Explorer Sport is just about right.
I did one of those paid study's by some car manufacturer and got to spend 4 hours climbing in and driving a bunch of the 3rd row seating sized SUV's. Honda Pilot, Explorer, Hyundai Santa Fe, VW Atlas, Volvo XC90. It's was fun getting to compare literally side-by-side. Easiest money I ever made.
Bailey Guns
02-08-2019, 13:11
Wife got a shade over 21 in her Traverse going from Bailey to N Suburban. Quietest car I've ever been in. Not sure that's really an SUV, though.
Speaking of SUVs. I'm still trying to figure out what to get for my all around car/suv. Having trouble deciding on something and not really in love with anything I find. Either the engine/tech is meh, or the vehicle is too much car and not enough truck/off road.
I like to remind people that SUVs are just station wagons.
Station wagons were functional but never cool and kind of disappeared in the 1980s or 90s.
I think it?s probably the greatest piece of marketing genius to bring back the station wagon and brand it as a sport utility vehicle. People who would never consider owning a station wagon bought into the hype and now damn near everybody owns one.
The derailment has been derailed.
https://youtu.be/4WjpzubCoBo
I've been up worse in a rental Altima...
I like to remind people that SUVs are just station wagons.
Station wagons were functional but never cool and kind of disappeared in the 1980s or 90s.
I think it?s probably the greatest piece of marketing genius to bring back the station wagon and brand it as a sport utility vehicle. People who would never consider owning a station wagon bought into the hype and now damn near everybody owns one.
I'm one of the folks that likes station wagons, especially tier 1 wagons like the caddy V trim wagon.
[emoji477]
My wife drives a small station wagon. I called it a station wagon once and was reprimanded so I won?t be making that mistake again.
I?ll admit the darn thing is handy. I almost always take it to the grocery store because putting everything in the back is way easier than putting the groceries in the back of the cab on my truck.
I?m digging the new title Gents, thanks!
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
ChickNorris
02-08-2019, 14:05
Mostly not relevant, but I'm partial to these wagons:
77307
77308
Congratulations on your new Title, Joe.
Idk, these ones are just as good. 77309
4 wheels, no fossil fuels, and they get you from A to B, with my Animal rescue Ponies it works just as good, the rest of you overpaid for your motorized wagons, I mean a wagon is a wagon right?
Behind every blade of grass is a Threeper trying to get his budget AR-15 to work.
A minivan is closer to a wagon than any SUV that comes with a center locking diff, aka real 4WD.
A minivan is closer to a wagon than any SUV that comes with a center locking diff, aka real 4WD.
Nope. A mini van is just a smaller version of a van.
Congratulations on your new Title, Joe.
Tip of the hat to the mods.
Like.
Scanker19
02-08-2019, 15:08
I like station wagons too. I wish they still made Camry wagons.
I seen a new Buick wagon at Costco being sold and it looked sharp. But it?s was also a Buick, soo....
Edit: it?s called a Regal Tourx
Also a wagon isn?t a wagon. If you think you can get by using a simple Prairie schooner when you really need a conestoga then you?re barking up the wrong Oregon trial.
Entitled assholes in every sport/hobby. Guns, hiking, biking, motorcycles, off road, women, there's always some narcissist that's blown his load 40x over on equipment and is the all-encompassing expert that demands worship.
We call those guys tier 1.
[ROFL1]
Why you got to bring .22s into this?
Nope. A mini van is just a smaller version of a van.
I think this is a highly underrated comment.
Great-Kazoo
02-08-2019, 16:02
I think this is a highly underrated comment.
Or perhaps, overstated ?
I think a minivan is closer to a car and a full size van is closer to a truck. Especially the way that they drive.
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