View Full Version : "Electric Vehicles are Actually Worse for the Environment than Internal Combustion Cars"
...and other myths I often hear. I stumbled across a very well done video that is easy to understand and breaks down several myths I often hear about EVs. Usually it's from someone who "heard from someone" or saw a headline like my thread title and assumed it was fact w/o reading the details or the MSM perpetuating this false narrative that EVs are bad because it gets clicks just like guns are bad.
Electric Cars Myths vs Facts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk7ZTn9g7bY
As is often the case with those who don't understand firearms it's far too easy for them to latch onto the false narrative that they're evil. Once they're educated on the facts and experience them first-hand their story often changes. I find the same to be true with EVs. Once I take people for a ride and answer all of their questions they "get it" and often times say something to the effect that they have to get one those things.
Bailey Guns
02-25-2019, 10:42
Wait... Are you saying guns aren't evil?
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 10:43
Wait... Are you saying guns aren't evil?
No, he's justifying something he feels passionate about.
Again ;)
Wait... Are you saying drones aren't evil?
hurley842002
02-25-2019, 10:47
Jer, you have a thread going about choosing a career path, have you thought about Tesla sales? You are obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about them, perhaps you could take that passion and turn it into $$. Serious suggestion, no sarcasm intended.
Bailey Guns
02-25-2019, 10:54
It was actually a pretty interesting video. I'd need to see info from the "other" side to make a judgment on where the truth actually lies.
.455_Hunter
02-25-2019, 10:56
I am not anti-EV, but some of his generalizations and assumptions are crap.
A couple of examples from the first few minutes:
- Stopping at a charging station for 1 hour mid-trip works we until there is a line for the charging station. You can't assume that you will always be able to wheel right into a station and plug-in.
- Averaging power outage time across the entire country in kinda like averaging hurricane loss across the entire country. Some areas can be without power for weeks, especially with ice storms. You can store gas to keep your vehicle running. Using that gas in a generator to charge your EV- highly inefficient.
EV's can be highly practical for certain users and areas of the county, especially if you can maintain a second "normal'" car as back-up, but marginalizing legitimate concerns with "facts" doesn't help anything.
Only watched about half, but hasn't considered EV for people who don't live in houses. I imagine most people who park on the street aren't even considering an EV. I wouldn't; but that's the benefit of homeownership though. I have a LOT of stuff I wouldn't have if I lived in an apartment. A smoker for example.
BPTactical
02-25-2019, 11:38
Lets see you pull 12K# with an electric vehicle up Red Mountain, Wolf Creek or Loveland pass.
You'd burn that bitch to the ground.
BS video IMO- It doesn't address the carbon footprint of production nor disposal and cost of battery replacement.
It takes a huge amount of energy to manufacture batteries on this scale and you have an environmental mess when it comes to disposal.
Or do we just send them to India/Pakistan for disposal?
More carbon cause they aint gonna get there on a magic carpet....
I'm with the battery comments. I'll find the link but there was a huge study done in Europe where they determined to produce a single lithium battery for one of these cars is equivalent, in terms of carbon emissions, to driving a typical car for 10 years straight. The chemicals and other byproducts of producing the batteries are also pretty nasty.
BS video IMO- It doesn't address the carbon footprint of production nor disposal and cost of battery replacement.
Did you watch the video? Seems like he touched on that.
I am not anti-EV, but some of his generalizations and assumptions are crap.
A couple of examples from the first few minutes:
- Stopping at a charging station for 1 hour mid-trip works we until there is a line for the charging station. You can't assume that you will always be able to wheel right into a station and plug-in.
- Averaging power outage time across the entire country in kinda like averaging hurricane loss across the entire country. Some areas can be without power for weeks, especially with ice storms. You can store gas to keep your vehicle running. Using that gas in a generator to charge your EV- highly inefficient.
EV's can be highly practical for certain users and areas of the county, especially if you can maintain a second "normal'" car as back-up, but marginalizing legitimate concerns with "facts" doesn't help anything.
How can the conversation be had if we can't make generalizations? We built our house 13 years ago & I've experienced one power outage that lasted about an hour so for my specific example the number is almost zero so for me even the figure he uses seems absurd in the other direction.
As for stopping for an hour that's also one single & very specific trip. Most of the stops are around 15-20min on very long trips & these comprise less than 1% of your actual use. Understanding limitations is important but exaggerating "issues" that aren't a big deal isn't being objective.
Only watched about half, but hasn't considered EV for people who don't live in houses. I imagine most people who park on the street aren't even considering an EV. I wouldn't; but that's the benefit of homeownership though. I have a LOT of stuff I wouldn't have if I lived in an apartment. A smoker for example.
I've never said they are perfect for everyone in every situation. They are however a viable option for far more people who decided they weren't because of misinformation & FUD they formed their opinion on.
Being in an apartment is tricky for sure. Many are installing charging options. Lots of people work at places that offer free charging. Lots of different situations but if you can't charge it consistently this is a problem that's probably not worth trying to overcome.
Jer, you have a thread going about choosing a career path, have you thought about Tesla sales? You are obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about them, perhaps you could take that passion and turn it into $$. Serious suggestion, no sarcasm intended.
I have considered it but this would require commuting & selling cars again. Neither of which would equate to doing something I'm passionate about.
Lets see you pull 12K# with an electric vehicle up Red Mountain, Wolf Creek or Loveland pass.
You'd burn that bitch to the ground.
BS video IMO- It doesn't address the carbon footprint of production nor disposal and cost of battery replacement.
It takes a huge amount of energy to manufacture batteries on this scale and you have an environmental mess when it comes to disposal.
Or do we just send them to India/Pakistan for disposal?
More carbon cause they aint gonna get there on a magic carpet....
Do you also compare 1-ton diesel trucks for that specific use case to other family sedans or just EVs?
BPTactical
02-25-2019, 12:35
MQLbakWESkw
Thats a Bingo
.455_Hunter
02-25-2019, 13:04
How can the conversation be had if we can't make generalizations? We built our house 13 years ago & I've experienced one power outage that lasted about an hour so for my specific example the number is almost zero so for me even the figure he uses seems absurd in the other direction.
As for stopping for an hour that's also one single & very specific trip. Most of the stops are around 15-20min on very long trips & these comprise less than 1% of your actual use. Understanding limitations is important but exaggerating "issues" that aren't a big deal isn't being objective.
Not sure how being without power for weeks isn't a "big deal", but I guess we should ask the folks in Georgia and the Carolinas who got double tapped by hurricanes last year.
A modern gas station can process a large number of vehicles per hour at the pumps. I do not see how such a system would work where everybody wants to charge at the same spot and the same time, especially on rural interstates at "natural" stopping points, like Limon or Raton.
An EV works good for people in Boulder who generally never venture outside the "bubble" on a daily basis and have an alternate car for going skiing or driving to other states.
How is it not exactly the same as a regular gas station? You can't fill two cars at once with a single nozzle, so there are many. If all of the pumps are occupied at the same time, someone waits.
I'm with the battery comments. I'll find the link but there was a huge study done in Europe where they determined to produce a single lithium battery for one of these cars is equivalent, in terms of carbon emissions, to driving a typical car for 10 years straight. The chemicals and other byproducts of producing the batteries are also pretty nasty.
This has been greatly exaggerated & largely based on older chemistry & methods. The number is right around 95% of materials used in a Tesla Lithium Ion battery today are recovered during recycling using today's methods. This number will continue to increase as advancements are made. It's also not objective to lump ALL EVs into one group when discussing this segment. Keep in mind that Tesla also a division that does solar & energy storage. A battery pack that's lost 15-20% of it's range makes a perfect candidate for a Powerwall where charge cycle sizes aren't as important.
.455_Hunter
02-25-2019, 13:28
How is it not exactly the same as a regular gas station? You can't fill two cars at once with a single nozzle, so there are many. If all of the pumps are occupied at the same time, someone waits.
It's the number of hook-ups and the processing time that causes issues. Assuming the 10 miles per minute charging rate, it would take up to a half-hour per car to "fill up". Can you immagine waiting in a gas line where almost every vehicle is taking 30 minutes to fuel? How about when everybody wants to charge in Dillon/Silverthorn after skiing? What happens to your EV when you are stuck on the Eisenhower Tunnel approach in a blizzard with the heat, blower and wipers running constantly with a 30% battery that you should have charged but didn't because 40 other EVs were already in line at the last station?
I read something the other week when the cold snap hit the US. Electric vehicles ranges were dropping up to 40+%. The cold on the battery was a big factor in the drop, but also the need for using th car heater because there's no engine to pull the heat from so you have to use additional charge to power the heater.
That's a decent deterrent for me as it is cold and the family needs the heater quite a few months of the year.
It's the number of hook-ups and the processing time that causes issues. Assuming the 10 miles per minute charging rate, it would take up to a half-hour per car to "fill up". Can you immagine waiting in a gas line where almost every vehicle is taking 30 minutes to fuel? How about when everybody wants to charge in Dillon/Silverthorn after skiing? What happens to your EV when you are stuck on the Eisenhower Tunnel approach in a blizzard with the heat, blower and wipers running constantly with a 30% battery that you should have charged but didn't because 40 other EVs were already in line at the last station?
You're making a pretty simple mistake in that you're imagining a world that has many, many times more EVs than are currently on the market, but some how not more stations and no improvements in charge times. These are absolutely silly examples. What happens when your POS car overheats during the same blizzard on the same approach and then causes a traffic jam that holds up the tow truck to come get you out of the way. Mean while you're only wearing shorts, have no jacket or blanket, have to pee and are very thirsty. From my time working at AAA that is a real thing that happens in real life, but it is in no way an argument against driving a certain type of vehicle. Don't do dumb things is the answer.
Also, if one is so close to a major city as a ski resort, then you won't need a full charge to get to another charging station. Have you ever only filled up a few gallons in the middle of no where, just enough to get you to a gas station back in town with cheaper gas? It's the same thing. I can't wrap my head around why people have such a difficult time discussing certain topics. Full charge = X time so all charges are always from zero to full for full charge time? Obviously not. Some people fill their tanks when they get to half. Why would it be any different with an EV? If I'm in Dillon on only 30% and I need 50% to make it home comfortably. I can easily fill to 60% and be on my way. That gives me plenty of room to actually make it into the city if traffic is a mess or there is a road closure that extends my trip or something and there will be more charge stations on the way.
Do you think anyone warns their friends from buying diesel vehicles because they use twice as much oil when it comes time to change the oil? I'm sure that person exists, but no one is listening to them.
I read something the other week when the cold snap hit the US. Electric vehicles ranges were dropping up to 40+%. The cold on the battery was a big factor in the drop, but also the need for using th car heater because there's no engine to pull the heat from so you have to use additional charge to power the heater.
That's a decent deterrent for me as it is cold and the family needs the heater quite a few months of the year.
Find what you read and post it.
Not sure how being without power for weeks isn't a "big deal", but I guess we should ask the folks in Georgia and the Carolinas who got double tapped by hurricanes last year.
A modern gas station can process a large number of vehicles per hour at the pumps. I do not see how such a system would work where everybody wants to charge at the same spot and the same time, especially on rural interstates at "natural" stopping points, like Limon or Raton.
An EV works good for people in Boulder who generally never venture outside the "bubble" on a daily basis and have an alternate car for going skiing or driving to other states.
Gas stations use power too. On our road trip last summer there was a fire in Utah. I80 was closed & everyone had to exit. The only gas station there had lines back to I80 & miles back. We pulled up to the Supercharger, plugged in to top it off (for free) and upon walking over to the gas station for drinks & the bathroom we discovered that the line was there because they were closed. Reason: no power. That sure sucks we thought to ourselves as we went back to the hotel where our car was parked to use their restroom & get back on the road. We had to divert to South of SLC on back roads & juice up again at the Supercharger on the East side of SLC before we continued back on I80. We lost maybe a half hour to 45min due to the detour. All those others? Who knows. My guess is many slept in their cars that night.
Moral of the story is there are specific examples where emergencies & disasters cause set-backs that affect day to day life. Acting like any one solution is impervious to ALL unforseen situations is kinda silly.
Saying you HAVE to own a 2nd ICE & live in Boulder to own an EV is just dumb.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 13:56
We can agree that EV's are not for everyone, or will work for every task. Out here the nearest charging station is in a part of prescott that we don't or have a need to be. .
Urban centric folks will find them more to their lifestyle, same for some forum members. That need to be near higher density areas where one has a 5 min drive for overpriced coffee and trendy food stores.
Factor in a rocky company that could take a dump. Leaving Tesla owners uncharged with little or not support down the road.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyatkins/2019/02/25/tesla-is-imploding-again/#5e49949a68e1
BushMasterBoy
02-25-2019, 13:57
Why don't they have solar panels on the roof of the car. At least you could use the cell phone, if the car and cell battery are dead. Contingencies...
It's the number of hook-ups and the processing time that causes issues. Assuming the 10 miles per minute charging rate, it would take up to a half-hour per car to "fill up". Can you immagine waiting in a gas line where almost every vehicle is taking 30 minutes to fuel? How about when everybody wants to charge in Dillon/Silverthorn after skiing? What happens to your EV when you are stuck on the Eisenhower Tunnel approach in a blizzard with the heat, blower and wipers running constantly with a 30% battery that you should have charged but didn't because 40 other EVs were already in line at the last station?
10 miles per minute? ROFL
Tesla Supercharger regularly hit speeds of 300mph. They've also recently announced they will increase their speed (again) significantly this year. Many guestimate a charge rate of nearly double based on the electrical supply ceiling.
All your other examples are just stupid people doing stupid shit. That same idiot also doesn't stop for gas & runs out in the middle of winter too. Tesla has solved a lot of mankind's problems but then can't eradicate stupidity entirely.
I read something the other week when the cold snap hit the US. Electric vehicles ranges were dropping up to 40+%. The cold on the battery was a big factor in the drop, but also the need for using th car heater because there's no engine to pull the heat from so you have to use additional charge to power the heater.
That's a decent deterrent for me as it is cold and the family needs the heater quite a few months of the year.
This is where I stated you can't lump ALL EVs in the same category. Yes, some EVs experience decreased efficiency in the winter months that can be in the 40% range. Tesla has better (and patented) temperature control of their packs to where this isn't as much of a factor. I'd say probably half of that give or take.
EV haters will say "but that's still 20% less efficiency in winter!" Without noting that the same loss in efficiency is experienced on ICE cars as well.
Face it, bitter cold is hell on all vehicle types.
Isn't 300 miles per hour only 5 miles per minute?
Find what you read and post it.
http://thedrive.com/news/26383/cold-weather-can-cut-an-electric-cars-range-more-than-40-percent-report
We can agree that EV's are not for everyone, or will work for every task. Out here the nearest charging station is in a part of prescott that we don't or have a need to be. .
Urban centric folks will find them more to their lifestyle, same for some forum members. That need to be near higher density areas where one has a 5 min drive for overpriced coffee and trendy food stores.
Factor in a rocky company that could take a dump. Leaving Tesla owners uncharged with little or not support down the road.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyatkins/2019/02/25/tesla-is-imploding-again/#5e49949a68e1
Tesla has three Superchargers in less than 60miles from Prescott, AZ. That's just Tesla Superchargers alone. Electricity is EVERYWHERE.
No, you don't have to be a city dweller to own an EV. Hell, if you want to get technical about it there's electricity more locations than gas stations.
As far as "Rocky company" goes... Don't fall for the MSM narrative echoing the shorts who are all losing their asses.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 14:12
http://thedrive.com/news/26383/cold-weather-can-cut-an-electric-cars-range-more-than-40-percent-report
UNPOSSIBLE !
It would easily use double the amount of power for that 15-mile trip," Jason Hughes, a notorious member of the Tesla community known for modding his cars and refurbishing spare Tesla parts, told the Associated Press. "It's definitely an issue. If you want to go somewhere far in the cold, you're going to be using more power."
Why don't they have solar panels on the roof of the car. At least you could use the cell phone, if the car and cell battery are dead. Contingencies...
Attempts to do exactly this have been made. With the efficiency of the panels plus inverters & added weight it doesn't make sense. It makes more sense to put fixed panels on your home & then capture that created energy in a battery pack like in your car.
.455_Hunter
02-25-2019, 14:19
10 miles per minute? ROFL
Tesla Supercharger regularly hit speeds of 300mph. They've also recently announced they will increase their speed (again) significantly this year. Many guestimate a charge rate of nearly double based on the electrical supply ceiling.
All your other examples are just stupid people doing stupid shit. That same idiot also doesn't stop for gas & runs out in the middle of winter too. Tesla has solved a lot of mankind's problems but then can't eradicate stupidity entirely.
Please exain how 10 miles per minute change rate is so wrong? The guy in the video said it takes 45 minutes for a full 300 mile charge, and essentially the same thing is on the Tesla Super Charger Wiki page.
The problem isn't one person with a EV. It's when 10-20% of the cars on the road are competing for very limited charging resources. I guess Dillon is going to tear down their motels and restaurants to build more charging stations.
EVs seem to be good choices for somebody with a limited operations area who has low probability of needing extended driving periods.
Isn't 300 miles per hour only 5 miles per minute?
Give or take.
People often like to discuss road trips as if that's what everyone does every day. It isn't.
99% of the time you'll get home at the end of your work day, plug in & go to bed. The next morning you unplug & go to work. That's it. You don't think twice about it & it's noticeable the amount of time you save when that's all you have to do. When you return home you likely have 80% of your range left. This is typical. This is what should be most importantly to the decision making process but people get so hung up on range anxiety making it a much bigger deal than it is in 2019.
Please exain how 10 miles per minute change rate is so wrong? The guy in the video said it takes 45 minutes for a full 300 mile charge, and essentially the same thing is on the Tesla Super Charger Wiki page.
The problem isn't one person with a EV. It's when 10-20% of the cars on the road are competing for very limited charging resources. I guess Dillon is going to tear down their motels and restaurants to build more charging stations.
EVs seem to be good choices for somebody with a limited operations area who has low probability of needing extended driving periods.
Edit: voice to text screwed me below so I did some delayed house cleaning:
You're thinking of refueling in terms of a car. With an electric car there's very few instances where it makes sense to deplete the battery to near empty and then fill it to near full. This is why when you're going on long road trips you typically stop every couple of hours for 15 to 25 minutes or so. Sure you can stay for longer if there's a restaurant nearby or something you want to check out. Longer stops decrease the amount of stops you make, the length of charge time or potentially even both. It's really not that complex once you're out on the highway going.
So far every time we've gone to a supercharger there's been many stalls available. All you do is enter the address of your destination and go. The nav figures everything else out for you. It will show you where your supercharger stops are as well as how much battery will be remaining and how long you need to be at each station. It even shows you the number of stalls that are there and how many of them are available real time so you know before you even pull up that two out of 12 are currently in-use.
As far as number of superchargers they doubled the total count over the last two years and at the end of last year announced that they would double it again this year which effectively means an install rate of 4 times the previous two year's rate. So far they've done a really good job in keeping ahead of demand as it applies to superchargers and all but a select few major populated areas.
While I don?t like to agree with Jer too much, my typical work commute is about 160 miles a day round trip. Even a 200 mile capacity would get me to Cheyenne and back.
I do have other commutes that are about 250 miles one way. While I typically wouldn?t make that trip and come back in the same day it has happened on more than one occasion.
A few of my commutes exceed 600 miles one way and are usually made during a normal ten hour shift but I never expect to return right away.
Usually my commutes require hauling enough equipment to fill the bed of a half ton truck and about half of the cab as well so that might be a deal breaker for using an electric vehicle to commute to work.
One time I drove 100 miles one way, only to realize I didn't bring the keys to the place I was going, so I had to drive back home and back to the place. If I were in an EV it would have been slightly more inconvenient, maybe, but nothing compared to how much time I lost by being dumb in the first place. These threads make me wonder if I should consider an EV for my wife's next car. Her general commute is maybe 25 miles a day and having one less oil change to worry about would be nice.
On Jer's / EV side. Looks like Porsche and BMW are testing a charging station in Germany thatll charge for 60 miles in 3 (three!) minutes:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25577352/electric-car-charging-bmw-porsche/
I think it'll still be a good decade or two before EV technology has progressed enough to make ICE vehicles obsolete , or at least antiques. And I personally am going to wait until then, or close to. I still want a Ford F-150 Roush Supercharged edition.
kidicarus13
02-25-2019, 14:52
What does this look like EV style?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/225c9341894635142b017233b822c9cb.jpg
.455_Hunter
02-25-2019, 14:57
One time I drove 100 miles one way, only to realize I didn't bring the keys to the place I was going, so I had to drive back home and back to the place. If I were in an EV it would have been slightly more inconvenient, maybe, but nothing compared to how much time I lost by being dumb in the first place. These threads make me wonder if I should consider an EV for my wife's next car. Her general commute is maybe 25 miles a day and having one less oil change to worry about would be nice.
Yes- Her situation does seem like a good candidate for an EV: Local operations area, garage parking, plenty of battery margin to accommodate "issues" (like stuck in traffic in a 10 degree blizzard, or the need to drive back home immediately upon getting work because your kid is barfing in the school nurses office) and the fact that you have another gas car as back-up.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 15:05
Here's what I take from all this.
EV's are better than gas vehicles unless:
- you have a long commute.
- you need to go on a road trip.
- it's cold outside.
-you don't live in an urban center with access to public charging.
-you need to haul or tow stuff.
-you need to service the vehicle.
Gas vehicles are better than EV's unless:
- vehicle emissions are a concern.
- you can't afford gas.
Seriously, EV's are a great option for SOME people. But that's a very specific set of conditions for them to make sense.
Conversely, gas vehicles work for EVERYONE. Literally everyone. Short or long drives. Warm or cold weather. Urban or rural.
For that reason alone EV's have a long way to go. Until they can expand their target audience by solving many of the limitations, they just won't be a big part of the auto market.
Honey Badger282.8
02-25-2019, 15:07
An EV makes sense for a large portion of the average car buyer, but the infrastructure isn't quite where it needs to be to support that though. I'd be shocked if EV's didn't outsell ICE equipped cars by 2030. My next vehicle will be a Tesla, but I'm keeping my Frontier for camping, hauling, and long road trips.
What does this look like EV style?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/225c9341894635142b017233b822c9cb.jpg
Same picture but the guy is in shorts and sandals and carrying some sort of battery charger.
Charging stations are not free - we all pay into them - along with paying for the subsidies EV purchasers enjoy.
Creating the electricity that goes into an EV is not "clean energy."
Some states already have rolling blackouts due to a lack of electricity in the summer months. What happens when everyone is doubling their electricity needs by driving EVs? More unclean energy production?
Biggest scam yet. The politically connected are getting rich of this nonsense. Even bigger than the damn wind and solar farms.
Physics ain't that difficult - and it cannot be broken.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 15:20
Serious question regarding Tesla's specifically.
What system is in place to allow emergency personnel to open the doors after an accident? How does that work with their fancy door handles?
Only reason I ask that is because I just read an article about a Tesla that crashed and responders said they couldn't open the doors...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-24/tesla-slams-tree-florida-bursting-flames-and-killing-driver
I'd be shocked if EV's didn't outsell ICE equipped cars by 2030.
That?s about eleven years from now if I did my math right. I know technology moves fast but I?d be shocked if more EVs were sold than ICEs by then.
Guess one of us is in for a surprise.
Also, I don?t typically buy into conspiracy type stuff but I don?t believe the oil and gas industry is going to roll over and pretty much go away in the next eleven years and that?s what?s going to pretty much have to happen before EVs outsell gas vehicles.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 15:25
An EV makes sense for a large portion of the average car buyer, but the infrastructure isn't quite where it needs to be to support that though. I'd be shocked if EV's didn't outsell ICE equipped cars by 2030. My next vehicle will be a Tesla, but I'm keeping my Frontier for camping, hauling, and long road trips.
So.. For you and others the EV isn't a 1 size fits all solution. for ICE
I'd consider one if. They were much more affordable . They were more utilitarian and most of all, ADA friendly.
IMO The Tesla is more a status symbol for people to thumb their nose at the peon's, who stick to outdated technology. Sitting around a fire to heat their homes.
Serious question regarding Tesla's specifically.
What system is in place to allow emergency personnel to open the doors after an accident? How does that work with their fancy door handles?
Only reason I ask that is because I just read an article about a Tesla that crashed and responders said they couldn't open the doors...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-24/tesla-slams-tree-florida-bursting-flames-and-killing-driver
Jaws of life should open pretty much any car door in the planet. Even Tesla.
Charging stations are not free - we all pay into them - along with paying for the subsidies EV purchasers enjoy.
Wasnt the free charging for Tesla only for certain models and for a certain number of years? But if you didnt see, earlier this year, Tesla increased it's supercharging prices in NY and CA (and maybe a few other places), and the internet calculating the equivalent gas price (based on miles per charge and cost, etc) it was more expensive to "refill" than gasoline (of course dependent on the gas price of those same NY/CA areas etc).
Which caused an uproar and forced Tesla to lower the prices to appease.
https://electrek.co/2019/01/22/tesla-cuts-supercharger-prices-back-down-customer-backlash/
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 15:32
With all the back n forth i'm curious why Jer has ignored post # 26 Or not addressed it?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyatkins/2019/02/25/tesla-is-imploding-again/#5e49949a68e1
With all the back n forth i'm curious why Jer has ignored post # 26 Or not addressed it?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyatkins/2019/02/25/tesla-is-imploding-again/#5e49949a68e1
Uh oh, what did Musk tweet this time? Lol.
But, there are other companies dabbling in EV.
Like i said, I know I'll be waiting a decade or so for EV to iron out all the kinks.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 16:02
Serious question regarding Tesla's specifically.
What system is in place to allow emergency personnel to open the doors after an accident? How does that work with their fancy door handles?
Only reason I ask that is because I just read an article about a Tesla that crashed and responders said they couldn't open the doors...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-24/tesla-slams-tree-florida-bursting-flames-and-killing-driver
Jaws of life should open pretty much any car door in the planet. Even Tesla.
You'd think celebration mode could double as an emergency mode, genius.
Giggle
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 16:06
I volunteer to do the testing for door deployment charges, so line 'em up!
The infrastructure of a majority of the world isn't equipped to make a cold turkey transition to 100% renewable energy...but I do think technology will help bridge some of the gaps. Much like countries that skipped land lines completely and went straight to a cellular network, the inverse relationship between technology and consumer cost might do the same with these technologies. The biggest concern I have is the wide spread availability of Lanthanides and Actinides in sufficient quantities to support mainstream applications, especially because China holds 80% of the mining and 95% of the refining of these materials. If all nations aren't on the same page, it simply won't happen.
While I don?t like to agree with Jer too much, my typical work commute is about 160 miles a day round trip. Even a 200 mile capacity would get me to Cheyenne and back.
I do have other commutes that are about 250 miles one way. While I typically wouldn?t make that trip and come back in the same day it has happened on more than one occasion.
A few of my commutes exceed 600 miles one way and are usually made during a normal ten hour shift but I never expect to return right away.
Usually my commutes require hauling enough equipment to fill the bed of a half ton truck and about half of the cab as well so that might be a deal breaker for using an electric vehicle to commute to work.
Even on the longer trips if you play your cards right it may still not take much longer than making the same run in an ICE vehicle. In some cases it could even be quicker depending on many possible factors. One thing is certain though and that is that it would certainly cost you much less. Superchargers are pretty darn cheap for those that have to pay and for those that don't (like me) they're 100% free.
If that last point is important then an EV, as they currently exist, may not be the best for you since they're all passenger cars not really made for hauling. The Tesla Model X can pull a trailer and carry some extra gear but it's not intended for serious professional use or anything like that so I wouldn't even suggest it beyond light duty. This is basically what the next wave of EVs looks to address though is the pick-up truck market will be the next one they take on and some of the specs of what we could see that I've seen is awfully promising. Personally, I dislike having a full-size truck so I'd wait for that following wave of pick-ups that will likely include midsize as I feel that's the best for my needs which are slightly above light duty occasionally.
You'd think celebration mode could double as an emergency mode, genius.
Giggle
Tesla has a celebration mode?
I?m googling that.
One time I drove 100 miles one way, only to realize I didn't bring the keys to the place I was going, so I had to drive back home and back to the place. If I were in an EV it would have been slightly more inconvenient, maybe, but nothing compared to how much time I lost by being dumb in the first place. These threads make me wonder if I should consider an EV for my wife's next car. Her general commute is maybe 25 miles a day and having one less oil change to worry about would be nice.
Yeah, that's exactly it man. We've all made bonehead mistakes and you will learn from them regardless of what propulsion system your vehicle uses.
I would say that if your wife's commute is on the shorter side to give it a try. That was our plan to start with her car and keep my truck. We realized once we owned one that it was just an improvement on that aspect of our lives and got a 2nd. The truck will likely be for sale as it's sat for about 5 months now with a battery tender on it. The couple of times I've driven it I'm amazed at how much of a POS it now feels like even though I love that truck.
One thing is certain though and that is that it would certainly cost you much less.
Oh, without a bunch of boring details, my commuting likely costs you more than it does me. And likely people who drive EVs might be impacted more by the cost of my commutes than those who drive ICEs since whatever electricity is used to charge those things doesn?t just magically appear out of thin air.
And by you, I don?t specifically mean you. You was used as a general term. I work in the energy industry so technically any cost associated with me doing my job are passed along to the end user.
Not sure if any of that makes sense but typing in a hurry because I?m working.
Wouldn't that be the case after driving any brand new car?
One of my favorite parts of my van is how it shakes at stop lights and how the lights fluctuate like the alternator is going out.
Like the Harley Davidson of mini vans, heh Irving?
On Jer's / EV side. Looks like Porsche and BMW are testing a charging station in Germany thatll charge for 60 miles in 3 (three!) minutes:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25577352/electric-car-charging-bmw-porsche/
I think it'll still be a good decade or two before EV technology has progressed enough to make ICE vehicles obsolete , or at least antiques. And I personally am going to wait until then, or close to. I still want a Ford F-150 Roush Supercharged edition.
Something to keep in mind here is battery longevity. Tesla can do the same thing as far as charge rate but it does so at a cost of overall lifespan with the current technology. Early on Tesla erred on the side of slower performance in exchange for what they felt would be better life. They basically said that you would want to keep your battery set to stop charging at 70-85% and only use Superchargers when traveling as topping off your battery and rapid charging would shorten the expected life of your battery. Now that these things have been in the wild for more than 5 years we're getting some pretty significant data points that are saying otherwise. There's a limo service in LA and a Taxi service in Vegas and both use Tesla Model S's exclusively. Both charge 100% using the (free) Supercharger network and both charge to 100% at all times. So these should equal the harshest conditions possible and produce the most battery degradation of any real-world use. They have cars that are now over 400,000 miles, on the original battery packs & motors and seeing about 10% battery degradation. That's crazy. That means if you have a car that has 300 miles that even after nearly half a million miles of the harshest driving/charging conditions possible you still have 270 miles of range at max charge. This is why Tesla recently announced that charging to 80-90% daily was no big deal because the net effect at EOL is negligible at best. This is also why Tesla has stated they will bump the output of their Superchargers since it doesn't seem to have as much negative effect on the battery life as engineers initially predicted. It seems a though most new Teslas will drop nearly 10% within the first 50k or so miles and then basically maintain that figure for half a million miles or more. Bumping the Supercharger output may lower that at a slightly faster rate but at this point... who cares? I'm of the belief that Superchargers were never intended for daily use so if they can crank up the juice... go for it! When I'm traveling I personally would prefer the shortest stop times possible. That being said, even at today's charge rates I really didn't think that any of our charge stops were setting us back that much time wise.
That's all with tech we have readily available and produced today. Think when battery and charge tech breakthroughs start happening. It sounds like they've got some pretty promising stuff on the horizon already that could significantly decrease charge times, weight and cost to produce. That recent acquisition Tesla made will likely produce big advancements in all of those categories if what I'm reading about tech and patent portfolio are accurate.
What does this look like EV style?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/225c9341894635142b017233b822c9cb.jpg
It feels like "dont' be a dumbass that runs out of fuel" lulz
Over 25 years driving and I've never run out of gas so I don't a hobo's crap about a gas can so why should I care about the EV version?
I don?t know if I?d take any data from a limousine service in Louisiana seriously.
Yes- Her situation does seem like a good candidate for an EV: Local operations area, garage parking, plenty of battery margin to accommodate "issues" (like stuck in traffic in a 10 degree blizzard, or the need to drive back home immediately upon getting work because your kid is barfing in the school nurses office) and the fact that you have another gas car as back-up.
Sitting in traffic with the heat going doesn't use as much juice as you might think.
Example: we actually camp in our Tesla Model S when we road trip last fall. Even though it looks like a Sedan it actually is a hatchback. This means that you can fold the back seats down flat and a queen size air mattress will fit nicely. You simply pull up to a charger (Super or other outlet) plug in, open the rear hatch, lay down the back seats, inflate your air mattress and then get inside and lay down. One press of a button on your Tesla app closes the hatch above you, another locks the doors and lastly you set the climate control to 70 degrees and go to sleep. We slept like babies. We stayed overnight in a parking lot in Oregon and one in Seattle and while it wasn't 15 degrees out it was fairly cold and not only did the cabin stay at exactly 70 degrees for over 8 hours but when we got up to leave we used less than 10 miles of range on the nights we didn't plug in while sleeping.
If you're in a situation where you think cold weather or traffic jams may be an issue you can put a Tesla in "range" mode which cuts the usage down by half. You can also utilize the seat heaters as they're direct heat and use much much less energy than the cabin heater does. I've found though that in most cases you end up having plenty of juice. There's only been a couple of times I felt the need to use all of these and in the end we had TONS of juice left so I definitely erred on the side of caution in those instances. Once you have one for a while though you learn the ins and most of this stuff becomes routine just like a lot of the things we do with ICE cars.
An EV makes sense for a large portion of the average car buyer, but the infrastructure isn't quite where it needs to be to support that though. I'd be shocked if EV's didn't outsell ICE equipped cars by 2030. My next vehicle will be a Tesla, but I'm keeping my Frontier for camping, hauling, and long road trips.
You would rather drive a Nissan Frontier for long road trips than a Tesla? Please elaborate.
Here are the articles I was talking about in terms of the batteries.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/the-dirt-on-clean-electric-cars
and
https://www.ivl.se/english/startpage/top-menu/pressroom/press-releases/press-releases---arkiv/2017-06-21-new-report-highlights-climate-footprint-of-electric-car-battery-production.html
Tesla was specifically one of the cars studied I don't buy that the batteries in their cars are clean at all. I've read that they do attempt to recycle them after use but that came from the telsa website so I wouldn't say I'm 100% sold.
You can look up lithium mines and see pretty quickly that they're destructive. Some of the pits they dig are so huge that it's not safe to fly a plane over them. Just googling "environmental impact of lithium mining" will bring up plenty of support for that point.
I have no skin in the game but I really don't think electric cars are any more "clean" than a gas burning ones.
Same picture but the guy is in shorts and sandals and carrying some sort of battery charger.
And a Starbucks Latte. lulz
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 16:40
Oh, without a bunch of boring details, my commuting likely costs you more than it does me. And likely people who drive EVs might be impacted more by the cost of my commutes than those who drive ICEs since whatever electricity is used to charge those things doesn?t just magically appear out of thin air.
And by you, I don?t specifically mean you. You was used as a general term. I work in the energy industry so technically any cost associated with me doing my job are passed along to the end user.
Not sure if any of that makes sense but typing in a hurry because I?m working.
So, wrong pronoun.
; )
And a Starbucks Latte. lulz
Well of course. Who goes anywhere without their Starbucks?
And fitting a queen size mattress in the Tesla is impressive. I don?t think one of those would fit in the bed of my truck. Maybe a twin. But not a queen. Stupid wheel wells.
So, wrong pronoun.
; )
Eh. Grammar was never really my thing.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 16:46
Even on the longer trips if you play your cards right it may still not take much longer than making the same run in an ICE vehicle. In some cases it could even be quicker depending on many possible factors.
In what world?
Let's say I'm driving to Kansas City, a trip I have made many times. 600 miles ish.
In an EV, 75 mph, with a 75-min 100% charge halfway there (Looks like Colby, KS is the Supercharger stop @ 250 miles, but that might mean I'd have to stop again somewhere along the way and "top off"), that's 9 hours 15 minutes, plus a potential 2nd stop. (Per the Tesla supercharger website that'd cost me $50 to charge).
In a gas car, 75 mph, with a 10 minute fill-up halfway there, that's that's 8 hours, 10 minutes. (Per the Tesla Super charger website, that'd cost me $81/gas)
So I saved $31 and spent minimum an extra hour traveling if I took an EV...IF, and that's a BIG if, I got max mileage out of my EV. That's pushing it, especially it I used my AC/Heat or anything else.
And what factor(s) would make it quicker in an EV? Because, damn near any gas vehicle has a range equal-to or exceeding EV's. Add any stop to re-fuel, and the gas auto is going to save time.
Charging stations are not free - we all pay into them - along with paying for the subsidies EV purchasers enjoy.
Creating the electricity that goes into an EV is not "clean energy."
Some states already have rolling blackouts due to a lack of electricity in the summer months. What happens when everyone is doubling their electricity needs by driving EVs? More unclean energy production?
Biggest scam yet. The politically connected are getting rich of this nonsense. Even bigger than the damn wind and solar farms.
Physics ain't that difficult - and it cannot be broken.
Here we go. You don't pay a dime for Superchargers. The bill goes to Tesla. If you bought a Tesla then there is some cost association built into the selling price of your car. Tax payers don't subsidize Superchargers.
Your slight at EV subsidies assumes that there are other means of transportation that don't get gov't subsidy. How much do we subsidize the cost of oil/gas? I don't buy gas or oil yet my taxes go to keep the cost of oil and gas artificially stable and low. Who benefits from that? Are you trying to tell me that oil companies don't take any handouts and are non-profits trying to make the world a better place? lol
BTW, if you're talking about loans and "handouts" it should be noted that the loan that Tesla took (like the other manufacturers) has been paid back in full years ahead of schedule (unlike the other car manufacturers who are rapidly headed towards insolvency).
Creating the energy that goes into an EV is only as clean as the state wants it to be. Some states still burn a LOT of coal for production. Many use far far less. All are moving towards a larger amount of renewable energy sources for production. EVs take the middle man (fuel refinery/production/distro) out of the picture. It's up to states to implement cleaner production and whatever improvements are made at the highest level are magnified by EVs. This is a pretty simple concept that many like to overlook in their anti-EV rants.
Saying that states have electricity issues is exactly why EV is important. It's driving (pun intended) the battery technology that will be used to stabilize our electrical grid. Look at places like Australia and Hawaii where electricity costs are through the roof and brown/black outs are common. Tesla steps in with Powerwall and Powerpack solutions and nearly overnight their problems are going away. Inside of those Powewalls and Powerpacks... the exact same cells that are in the cars. Tell me again how this is HURTING power generation and supply.
I love how in your scenario the "politically connected" are the clean energy and EV industries that are the big bad wolf looking to blow the poor little innocent oil companies straw houses down. ROFL
I have no skin in the game but I really don't think electric cars are any more "clean" than a gas burning ones.
Part of my fascination with this discussion is the amount of people who don't really have anything to say about EV in general, but just want to argue against stuff that they've heard in the past, and almost never in the threads started. I'm using this quote as an example because it is the most common one, not because I think this is what you are doing. Others certainly are though.
I get that the first people to be excited about EV cars were those who touted the idea that it's cleaner than ICE vehicles. Whether that is or isn't the case, doesn't matter at this point. EV has entered the market and the reasons for looking to own can change from the boutique interests that first generated publicity.
Basically if you (general) don't consider environmental factors for any of your other purchases, then stop talking about whether batteries are greener or not.
Same with towing. If you own any vehicles that can't tow 12,000 lbs over a mountain pass, but then think that is a valid talking point in whether an EV is a worthwhile purchase, then you should probably go back to eating glue at the kids table.
Serious question regarding Tesla's specifically.
What system is in place to allow emergency personnel to open the doors after an accident? How does that work with their fancy door handles?
Only reason I ask that is because I just read an article about a Tesla that crashed and responders said they couldn't open the doors...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-24/tesla-slams-tree-florida-bursting-flames-and-killing-driver
I don't know the details of this story. If it's like most of the other "Tesla kills driver... film at 11" stories I read I'm sure that more details will emerge in the months to come but I don't know enough to make a judgement on this specific situation.
Cars are scary things and people die in them every day. If the door was inoperable why couldn't they just smash the glass the get him out if the jaws of life were too far away? I don't know what extraction methods were attempted or which couldn't be. It seems to me that if someone inside was going to die and could be saved they wouldn't have just checked the door handle and walked away. These types situations happen every day in all sorts of car makes so I'm not going to sit here and say that lack of door handles killed the driver because I have next to zero details other than: guy was driving tesla, car hits tree, guy dies. Everything else at this point just more of the same doom and gloom the MSM wants to sell us.
Never mind that the NHTSA recently released it's results of a study that found that Tesla cars have the lowest probability of injury of any vehicle made and the margin was significant. Never mind that Autopilot has been around long enough that we have significant data to show that you're actually far less likely to be in an accident with Autopilot enabled then you are w/o it because nobody hears about these things. Instead, one person dies in a car accident and the "media" rushes to blame Tesla because, let's face it, if the headline of that story doesn't have the word "Tesla" in it nobody cares.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 17:00
Yeah, that's exactly it man. We've all made bonehead mistakes and you will learn from them regardless of what propulsion system your vehicle uses.
I would say that if your wife's commute is on the shorter side to give it a try. That was our plan to start with her car and keep my truck. We realized once we owned one that it was just an improvement on that aspect of our lives and got a 2nd. The truck will likely be for sale as it's sat for about 5 months now with a battery tender on it. The couple of times I've driven it li I'm amazed at how much of a POS it now feels like even though I love that truck.
Does that mean the thread[s] where you're fellating Tacomas, should be deleted from history ?
How long will the EV love affair last?
I prefer the piquant flavor of paste to glue. Maybe I?m a snob like that.
After my last post I realized that Jer set the tone of the environmental aspect of this thread with the title.
Part of my fascination with this discussion is the amount of people who don't really have anything to say about EV in general, but just want to argue against stuff that they've heard in the past, and almost never in the threads started. I'm using this quote as an example because it is the most common one, not because I think this is what you are doing. Others certainly are though.
I get that the first people to be excited about EV cars were those who touted the idea that it's cleaner than ICE vehicles. Whether that is or isn't the case, doesn't matter at this point. EV has entered the market and the reasons for looking to own can change from the boutique interests that first generated publicity.
Basically if you (general) don't consider environmental factors for any of your other purchases, then stop talking about whether batteries are greener or not.
Same with towing. If you own any vehicles that can't tow 12,000 lbs over a mountain pass, but then think that is a valid talking point in whether an EV is a worthwhile purchase, then you should probably go back to eating glue at the kids table.
I don't care about electric cars one way or the other. I have read a bunch on the topic of lithium mining however, for no other reason than curiosity. If someone is going to try to say that's a clean process and I disagree I'm going to chime in about that. Pretty sure that's on topic weather I care about it or not.
I'll head over to the kids table now ttyl
Id love to have an ev truck for my work truck. If it had a 300 mile range thats way more than id need for working the metro area.
Trains run off electricity.
I think an ev truck would pull just fine.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:06
After my last post I realized that Jer set the tone of the environmental aspect of this thread with the title.
I appreciated the post. Over the thread however.
So.. For you and others the EV isn't a 1 size fits all solution. for ICE
I'd consider one if. They were much more affordable . They were more utilitarian and most of all, ADA friendly.
IMO The Tesla is more a status symbol for people to thumb their nose at the peon's, who stick to outdated technology. Sitting around a fire to heat their homes.
Keep in mind that the Tesla Model S was never built as a utilitarian vehicle. Too many EVs were built to that spec before Tesla came along and it fueled the fire of "look at that crappy little thing, can it even get out of it's own way?"
Nobody took them serious. 0-60 if you were lucky. Range of 55 miles on a good day if your driving was downhill. Small little tin cans. This is how EVs were type-cast for decades.
Tesla set out to build something that wasn't just "impressive for an EV" but something that was simple "impressive" w/o any qualifiers. They did that. They proved to the masses that this technology could indeed meet the needs of today's car buyers and not just today's environmentalists.
You can buy exactly what you're looking for for under $10k used from other manufacturers. If you don't need/want what the $150k (when new... ours used were less than 1/3 of that) car offers then of course you just see it as status symbol and can't understand why anyone would want to own one.
Tesla came out with the Model 3 that will meet the short list of what you're looking for in car. The plan is to produce a base model that is $35k before any tax credits or anything like that. Used copies will be $20k or less by 2022.
With all the back n forth i'm curious why Jer has ignored post # 26 Or not addressed it?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyatkins/2019/02/25/tesla-is-imploding-again/#5e49949a68e1
Actually, I did.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 17:10
Part of my fascination with this discussion is the amount of people who don't really have anything to say about EV in general, but just want to argue against stuff that they've heard in the past, and almost never in the threads started. I'm using this quote as an example because it is the most common one, not because I think this is what you are doing. Others certainly are though.
I get that the first people to be excited about EV cars were those who touted the idea that it's cleaner than ICE vehicles. Whether that is or isn't the case, doesn't matter at this point. EV has entered the market and the reasons for looking to own can change from the boutique interests that first generated publicity.
Basically if you (general) don't consider environmental factors for any of your other purchases, then stop talking about whether batteries are greener or not.
Same with towing. If you own any vehicles that can't tow 12,000 lbs over a mountain pass, but then think that is a valid talking point in whether an EV is a worthwhile purchase, then you should probably go back to eating glue at the kids table.
We looked and drove a few. Real nice, but very uncomfortable to deal with having a prosthetic . The Nissan Leaf would be the pick IF we ever went with a new vehicle.
Going back to environmentally better. There's a shit load of copper, wrapped in plastic used. While there's green potential, until options for wiring everything together are found. That don't use natural resources, they're really not that "green"
Nothing ever will be, so one has to weigh the benefits as well as "feel good" about doing something.
If you don't need/want what the $150k (when new... ours used were less than 1/3 of that)
Now I?m second guessing how awesome the Tesla is based solely off how poorly it retains it?s value.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 17:15
I don't know the details of this story. If it's like most of the other "Tesla kills driver... film at 11" stories I read I'm sure that more details will emerge in the months to come but I don't know enough to make a judgement on this specific situation.
Cars are scary things ...blah blah blah
I guess I shouldn't have posted the link. Forget this story completely, the details don't interest me. It only piqued my interest regarding a technical aspect of the car. I was simply asking a Tesla owner who knows a bit about the cars to answer a question for me. It was a serious question not meant as a 'gotcha'. How do the doors open if the car is disabled?
I don't care about electric cars one way or the other. I have read a bunch on the topic of lithium mining however, for no other reason than curiosity. If someone is going to try to say that's a clean process and I disagree I'm going to chime in about that. Pretty sure that's on topic weather I care about it or not.
I'll head over to the kids table now ttyl
I was worried you'd take my post the wrong way. Your points are fine and it's a discussion to be had. I'm talking more specifically about general discussions about whether an EV is realistic to use for people. There is always the person who shows up to argue about whether it is really more green or not. If that person doesn't care about how green something is, then who cares how green an EV is? Once something hits main stream, people are going to enter the market regardless of their feelings toward the environment.
Same with towing. If there are zero EV trucks on the market at this time, why is towing a part of any discussion? No one buys a sedan with the intent to tow.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 17:24
I was worried you'd take my post the wrong way. Your points are fine and it's a discussion to be had. I'm talking more specifically about general discussions about whether an EV is realistic to use for people. There is always the person who shows up to argue about whether it is really more green or not. If that person doesn't care about how green something is, then who cares how green an EV is? Once something hits main stream, people are going to enter the market regardless of their feelings toward the environment.
Same with towing. If there are zero EV trucks on the market at this time, why is towing a part of any discussion? No one buys a sedan with the intent to tow.
@ $25-50K for a used EV. Will never be on my radar. Interesting since the prius resale value, is really in the shitter. Maybe a 1-3 yr old one is great for trade, older than that...
Grant H.
02-25-2019, 17:24
Id love to have an ev truck for my work truck. If it had a 300 mile range thats way more than id need for working the metro area.
Trains run off electricity.
I think an ev truck would pull just fine.
Indeed. They will pull extremely well.
Range is the limitation that exists.
Post the next jump in battery tech (we're overdue, and I honestly think Tesla will be the primary driving force, likely the inventor, there), the use of EV will be rampant.
<said in a Tony the Tiger voice> They're great!
https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/t2u0B0KXchDOx245UD-6kZBL0E4=/970x0/2016/01/19/7799097e-d36f-4154-8102-74959ac42f1a/42-43664221.jpg
https://ihazmat.com/wp-content/uploads/Mines_1_copy-848x406.jpg
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Screen-Shot-2016-01-19-at-10.05.16-AM-640x352.png
Here we go. You don't pay a dime for Superchargers. The bill goes to Tesla. If you bought a Tesla then there is some cost association built into the selling price of your car. Tax payers don't subsidize Superchargers.
Just because the bill is made out o Tesla, does not mean taxpayers are not subsidizing payment. Taxpayers ARE subsidizing the existence of Tesla and every bill they pay.
Your slight at EV subsidies assumes that there are other means of transportation that don't get gov't subsidy. How much do we subsidize the cost of oil/gas? I don't buy gas or oil yet my taxes go to keep the cost of oil and gas artificially stable and low. Who benefits from that? Are you trying to tell me that oil companies don't take any handouts and are non-profits trying to make the world a better place? lol
Never stated any of that. However, I will point out that I directly pay the tax for the gas I put into my car.
BTW, if you're talking about loans and "handouts" it should be noted that the loan that Tesla took (like the other manufacturers) has been paid back in full years ahead of schedule (unlike the other car manufacturers who are rapidly headed towards insolvency).
BTW, I never mentioned it
Creating the energy that goes into an EV is only as clean as the state wants it to be. Some states still burn a LOT of coal for production. Many use far far less. All are moving towards a larger amount of renewable energy sources for production. EVs take the middle man (fuel refinery/production/distro) out of the picture. It's up to states to implement cleaner production and whatever improvements are made at the highest level are magnified by EVs. This is a pretty simple concept that many like to overlook in their anti-EV rants.
Again, all subsidized with everyone's tax dollars without consent.
Not exactly capitalism - this form of government expenditure has another name.
Saying that states have electricity issues is exactly why EV is important. It's driving (pun intended) the battery technology that will be used to stabilize our electrical grid. Look at places like Australia and Hawaii where electricity costs are through the roof and brown/black outs are common. Tesla steps in with Powerwall and Powerpack solutions and nearly overnight their problems are going away. Inside of those Powewalls and Powerpacks... the exact same cells that are in the cars. Tell me again how this is HURTING power generation and supply.
And without Govt subsidies, it would not be "affordable!"
I love how in your scenario the "politically connected" are the clean energy and EV industries that are the big bad wolf looking to blow the poor little innocent oil companies straw houses down. ROFL
Just because you call it "clean energy" doesn't make it so. ROFL
Grant H.
02-25-2019, 17:30
Yes, lithium mines are big and "ugly", and in some areas they are worked by folks that shouldn't be there.
That is not Tesla's fault.
The need for Li goes FAR beyond Tesla.
Honey Badger282.8
02-25-2019, 17:31
So.. For you and others the EV isn't a 1 size fits all solution. for ICE
I'd consider one if. They were much more affordable . They were more utilitarian and most of all, ADA friendly.
IMO The Tesla is more a status symbol for people to thumb their nose at the peon's, who stick to outdated technology. Sitting around a fire to heat their homes.
As the market currently sits, no, EVs are not a one size fits all solution. Regardless, that still doesn't mean that the vast majority of Americans, today, couldn't "make do" with an EV. As to the elitists that "thumb their nose at peons," I'd consider them to be the minority. The Tesla is no different than any other luxury car brand; it has obnoxious leg-humpers that get all of the attention, but they are far from the majority.
Regarding the production of batteries, that process isn't "green" but it is greener than oil extraction and refining. The 8 years to offset figure was based on a very flawed Dutch study that did not account for the production of gasoline that the ICE vehicles would use. And, obviously, EVs are only going to be as green as the source of their power generation. If someone lives in the heart of coal country, their EV isn't much greener than a standard hybrid. If someone gets their power from nuclear or renewables then it is considerably greener than any of the alternatives.
The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life.
https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/
Arguing against EVs because they aren't 100% clean doesn't make sense to me.
Regardless, that still doesn't mean that the vast majority of Americans, today, couldn't "make do" with an EV.
Making do is for communists. Americans go big or go home.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:40
I was worried you'd take my post the wrong way. Your points are fine and it's a discussion to be had. I'm talking more specifically about general discussions about whether an EV is realistic to use for people. There is always the person who shows up to argue about whether it is really more green or not. If that person doesn't care about how green something is, then who cares how green an EV is? Once something hits main stream, people are going to enter the market regardless of their feelings toward the environment.
Same with towing. If there are zero EV trucks on the market at this time, why is towing a part of any discussion? No one buys a sedan with the intent to tow.
Not no one, I put a hitch on our passat.
Just to bang your shins or what?
Sure, but that's not why you bought the Passat.
I'm curious about planes not being able to fly over a pit. What does that mean?
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:42
Making do is for communists. Americans go big or go home.
^^^^this
Honey Badger282.8
02-25-2019, 17:42
Making do is for communists. Americans go big or go home.
Agreed. That sub 3 second 0-60 MPH time wouldn’t happen in a communist country.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:45
Just to bang your shins or what?
Hehehe. Yes.
& got tired of my husband trying to hoarke my company truck to pull the rocket trailer when I had work to do.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:48
Sure, but that's not why you bought the Passat.
I'm curious about planes not being able to fly over a pit. What does that mean?
No, not specifically however them there clever Germans thought of the caravan when they designed it which is why it was even possible to pull the load required
You have a rocket? Sweet.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:51
You have a rocket? Sweet.
I have many rockets
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 17:57
... back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress...
Uh oh, what did Musk tweet this time? Lol.
But, there are other companies dabbling in EV.
Like i said, I know I'll be waiting a decade or so for EV to iron out all the kinks.
The problem is that the other car companies "dabbling" are doing just that. None of the big dogs are going full-tilt which is why their EV cars suck. I feel like they can throw away a small amount of money on their EV division and create some worthless turd just to say "See, we made it and nobody wanted an EV" when in reality it was just THEIR EV that sucked. Hell, Tesla even opened up their patent portfolio for others to utilize because their stated goal from day 1 was to accelerate the transition to EV since nobody else was. They even said they can use their Supercharger network but none of them will because they want to create their own proprietary system that they can then generate residual profits on long-term. Tesla is so far ahead that nobody is even close which worries me for the future. A future with no competition hurts the consumer. I really wish everyone else would take this shit serious and step up to the plate because right now Tesla has a massive lead in all of the important categories when others are still meeting about if they think it's a good idea or not.
The infrastructure of a majority of the world isn't equipped to make a cold turkey transition to 100% renewable energy...but I do think technology will help bridge some of the gaps. Much like countries that skipped land lines completely and went straight to a cellular network, the inverse relationship between technology and consumer cost might do the same with these technologies. The biggest concern I have is the wide spread availability of Lanthanides and Actinides in sufficient quantities to support mainstream applications, especially because China holds 80% of the mining and 95% of the refining of these materials. If all nations aren't on the same page, it simply won't happen.
This is one of the biggest hurdles we have to clear domestically. Massive investments in the way we produce power now make it difficult for a muni/co-op to just say "Well, we invested $14mil in a new transmission/generator/GIS software last year but let's just shit can the whole thing and start with a renewable option. Sure it can be done but ultimately it will be the consumer that eats the cost. Much to your point though you're finding that some were due for major EOL or just hadn't invested in capitol improvement in long enough that they basically leap frogged what others had been doing and now through dumb luck find themselves in a good position to choose for the future. Sadly, many of those who make the decision in these sectors are old farts who are tied to old ways and few want to try something new. Lots of them want to see others do it to prove out the tech and I don't really blame them. Nobody wanted to be the early adopter that effed the project up but now that we're seeing a few positive installs things are starting to swing around but that's a large ship to change directions so it will take time.
Tesla has a celebration mode?
I?m googling that.
Best bet is to Google the whoopie cushion mode called... emissions testing I believe?... or my personal fav: Romance mode! lol
Oh, without a bunch of boring details, my commuting likely costs you more than it does me. And likely people who drive EVs might be impacted more by the cost of my commutes than those who drive ICEs since whatever electricity is used to charge those things doesn?t just magically appear out of thin air.
And by you, I don?t specifically mean you. You was used as a general term. I work in the energy industry so technically any cost associated with me doing my job are passed along to the end user.
Not sure if any of that makes sense but typing in a hurry because I?m working.
I don't know specifics so I'll just have to take your word for it. I had a feeling you weren't talking about the literally "you" and more the royal "you" lol
I don?t know if I?d take any data from a limousine service in Louisiana seriously.
Haha... LA as in Los Angeles. Think the black Lincoln Towncars that drive rich hipsters around the bubs. It's basically like that but with Teslas now. I think that "car service" is probably a better descriptor but they tend to also generally be limo companies.
I don't care about electric cars one way or the other. I have read a bunch on the topic of lithium mining however, for no other reason than curiosity. If someone is going to try to say that's a clean process and I disagree I'm going to chime in about that. Pretty sure that's on topic weather I care about it or not.
I'll head over to the kids table now ttyl
I for one wouldn't call it a clean process but it is a different process. It's not perfect but even though it has it's own set of negatives it also seems to provide more positives. With some of the dry battery making methods & new technology coming down the pipeline we're going to see things get better for sure.
We looked and drove a few. Real nice, but very uncomfortable to deal with having a prosthetic . The Nissan Leaf would be the pick IF we ever went with a new vehicle.
Going back to environmentally better. There's a shit load of copper, wrapped in plastic used. While there's green potential, until options for wiring everything together are found. That don't use natural resources, they're really not that "green"
Nothing ever will be, so one has to weigh the benefits as well as "feel good" about doing something.
ICE vehicles don't use copper or plastic? That's a cool party trick.
Now I?m second guessing how awesome the Tesla is based solely off how poorly it retains it?s value.
$150k would be the top dog Model S with all the whiz-bang shit at today's price tag. If you don't need all of the fancy features you can get something for less than 1/3 that but it wouldn't be something that began life at $150k, if that makes sense. I think our 5 year old car was like $80k new and we paid about $40k for it so about 50% value in just over 5 years. Most ICE vehicles are going to lose about 50% at about the three year mark.
I guess I shouldn't have posted the link. Forget this story completely, the details don't interest me. It only piqued my interest regarding a technical aspect of the car. I was simply asking a Tesla owner who knows a bit about the cars to answer a question for me. It was a serious question not meant as a 'gotcha'. How do the doors open if the car is disabled?
The door should open just fine in the event of a battery failure. If all power is lost then the handles will not "present" or pop out which means they will be flush with the door. In an obvious emergency situation however it would make sense to break the window and either pull the handle from the inside (mechanically connected to door mechanism in case of just such an event) or pull the drive through the window. Either way, this seems more like a training issue than something Tesla did wrong. They're not the first to have fancy door handles.
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 18:31
ICE vehicles don't use copper or plastic? That's a cool party trick.
You're deflecting away from natural resources an EV uses, same as an ICE does.
Think i'll bump your tacoma thread, just for a laugh
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 18:32
... back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress...
SQUIRREL
@ $25-50K for a used EV. Will never be on my radar. Interesting since the prius resale value, is really in the shitter. Maybe a 1-3 yr old one is great for trade, older than that...
You keep lumping all EVs into the same category as if they're all the same and you can't figure out why anyone would pay more for one over the other. Go drive a 5-year-old Prius and then drive a 5-Year-Old Tesla Model S and you'll see exactly what you're paying for.
This is similar to the conversation people have that say "All EVs [insert negative thing that one of them does] so that's why I will never own one." which gets tiresome when someone is basing their opinion of a $150k luxury car on their personal experience with a clapped out rattle can EV.
BPTactical
02-25-2019, 18:39
But an electric dragster just isn't going have the same eye watering, sore throat inducing, ear shattering Nitromethane explosive impact now is it?
Meh, if I want an EV I'll buy an RC car.
Indeed. They will pull extremely well.
Range is the limitation that exists.
Post the next jump in battery tech (we're overdue, and I honestly think Tesla will be the primary driving force, likely the inventor, there), the use of EV will be rampant.
Agreed. Tesla made a BIG move in this direction a couple of weeks ago when they acquired Maxwell technologies through an all-stock transaction. They specialize in ultracapacitors and advanced battery tech that will likely be put into implementation right away. Many suspect that the patent portfolio alone will save Tesla hundreds of millions of dollars in production costs in the near-term alone. The talk is that the discoveries they made in dry electrode technology alone will be a significant jump in what we currently have to work with. The rumors are that if everything was equal from what they're building right now (Model 3 for instance) and all they change is the battery technology that the packs in the Model 3 would drop about 30% in cost, 20% in weight and generate more range with a longer lifespan plus be better to produce environmentally. Tesla is doing this right by focusing on the tech rather than just paying someone else to make it the way all over EV have done with LG and Panasonic. In a short period of time once the Gigafactories are fully online and cranking out volume not only will Tesla have the best performing cars at the lowest possible prices but anyone who wants to build an EV that competes will have to source their battery tech from them too. This would be a significant victory for Tesla but you can see why as a consumer I'm afraid for our future if nobody steps up to challenge them.
ChickNorris
02-25-2019, 18:41
But an electric dragster just isn't going have the same eye watering, sore throat inducing, ear shattering Nitromethane explosive impact now is it?
Top fuel Amen!
Giggle snort
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 18:42
You keep lumping all EVs into the same category as if they're all the same and you can't figure out why anyone would pay more for one over the other. Go drive a 5-year-old Prius and then drive a 5-Year-Old Tesla Model S and you'll see exactly what you're paying for.
This is similar to the conversation people have that say "All EVs [insert negative thing that one of them does] so that's why I will never own one." which gets tiresome when someone is basing their opinion of a $150k luxury car on their personal experience with a clapped out rattle can EV.
That's kind of elitist . Hurt your neck looking down, much .
The problem is that the other car companies "dabbling" are doing just that. None of the big dogs are going full-tilt which is why their EV cars suck. I feel like they can throw away a small amount of money on their EV division and create some worthless turd just to say "See, we made it and nobody wanted an EV" when in reality it was just THEIR EV that sucked. Hell, Tesla even opened up their patent portfolio for others to utilize because their stated goal from day 1 was to accelerate the transition to EV since nobody else was. They even said they can use their Supercharger network but none of them will because they want to create their own proprietary system that they can then generate residual profits on long-term. Tesla is so far ahead that nobody is even close which worries me for the future. A future with no competition hurts the consumer. I really wish everyone else would take this shit serious and step up to the plate because right now Tesla has a massive lead in all of the important categories when others are still meeting about if they think it's a good idea or not.
I think Ford said they were going to reveal a fully electric F150 within the year, or next year. And I think a few other companies (I dont remember who or what) had some similar big thing cooking. That should help the "dabbling" issue.
But yes, the whole propriatary think is super annoying in all areas of tech. Example, my samsung phone and my wifes apple, cant use the same charger pisses me off sometimes, just use the same port type you bastards
I think Ford said they were going to reveal a fully electric F150 within the year, or next year. And I think a few other companies (I dont remember who or what) had some similar big thing cooking. That should help the "dabbling" issue.
But yes, the whole propriatary think is super annoying in all areas of tech. Example, my samsung phone and my wifes apple, cant use the same charger pisses me off sometimes, just use the same port type you bastards
The Freakonomics podcast has the CEO of Ford on recently, and he came right out and said that they are interested in automated vehicles to generate and profit off of users meta data.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 20:23
Making do is for communists. Americans go big or go home.Amen.
OtterbatHellcat
02-25-2019, 20:24
I gave it a try to read through this thread, can't do it. It's a neat idea, but it ain't gonna work out for everyone in the long run.
It's probably fun trying to convince everyone I suppose, and at the same time it seems like something I'd see on a libtard board too. The same board that has Vegan recipes and fun stuff on Etsy too.
hollohas
02-25-2019, 20:35
That's kind of elitist . Hurt your neck looking down, much .Tier 1 EV is the only way to go. If you're not spending over a year salary on your EV, you don't deserve an opinion.
In all seriousness, I appreciate the Tesla and it's luxury sports car attitude. It's fast and that's really the only aspect that appeals to me.
UrbanWolf
02-25-2019, 20:44
What a clusterfuck, again.
BPTactical
02-25-2019, 20:46
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CokKUMYM0KI
Uggggg. Good thing automated vehicles are a ways off, but not surprising these days.
OtterbatHellcat
02-25-2019, 21:06
automated vehicles
You'll find some serious passion in that discussion for sure. It's my best guess.
What a clusterfuck, again.
Lol, next zhould we argue about V8s versus V6 with turbo? I know that's a fun topic.
Scanker19
02-25-2019, 21:36
So should I buy an electric or what? What’s the best one for me?
hollohas
02-25-2019, 21:41
Either way, this seems more like a training issue than something Tesla did wrong. They're not the first to have fancy door handles.
Any firemen here? You guys getting any special training on electric vehicles? The door handle thing aside, what about electric vehicle fires?
Great-Kazoo
02-25-2019, 21:41
Lol, next zhould we argue about V8s versus V6 with turbo? I know that's a fun topic.
4 cyl with webbers of course.
BushMasterBoy
02-25-2019, 21:51
I still think bio diesel is the way to go. Algae produces an oil. Just feed it sewage and biowaste. Same algae that made fossil fuels. 7000 plus batteries to power an EV? Seems overly complicated to me. Maybe some quantum computing of lithium cell design is in order?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery
I still think bio diesel is the way to go. Algae produces an oil. Just feed it sewage and biowaste. Same algae that made fossil fuels. 7000 plus batteries to power an EV? Seems overly complicated to me. Maybe some quantum computing of lithium cell design is in order?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery
Hydrogen powdered?
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html
Musk doesnt like them, so there maybe so truth to the article?
Scanker19
02-25-2019, 22:48
Hydrogen powdered?
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html
Musk doesnt like them, so there maybe so truth to the article?
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
Whales navigate by moisture detection and they start to get lost.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/humpback-whale-dead-amazon-jungle-brazil-rainforest-marajo-island-a8796016.html
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
Not dihydrogen monoxide!
You know, that is the most abundant ingredient in acid rain? That's what'll happen if there's too much in the atmosphere... [werdo]
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
California washes out to sea. So basically, it's a win/win...
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
Hybrid Hydrogen/Diesel. Rolling coal to offset it.
Can we talk about something a little less controversial? Religion perhaps?
...then again, this seems to be like a religion to some.
You just want everyone to be on the same page?
Communist if I've ever heard one.
OtterbatHellcat
02-25-2019, 23:44
What a clusterfuck, again.
Liberal minded thread anyways....how about if when you want to go on a freak tangent about whatever, and want to make a big deal about an idea.....you get a special avatar pass.
The big chicken choker avatar. You know, like when in marriage counseling when you get the chicken choker "talking stick". I hear you, you hear me, we fall back in love and buy an electric car.
Ideas, comments?
Why is the concept of an electric vehicle "liberal minded?"
OtterbatHellcat
02-25-2019, 23:56
I undid what I had to say this, it's wishful thinking, good idea in a way,......not even close to being practical yet.
I'm also now going to bow out of this thread as a posting contributor, and go view only if it can sustain itself for much longer.
I'm holding out until Apple makes an electric car.
Great-Kazoo
02-26-2019, 10:04
Don't fuel cell cars output H2O vapor? Now what happens when we have an over abundance of H2O in the atmosphere?
Non stop rain and a new Mad Max movie
I'm holding out until Apple makes an electric car.
Now we're comparing apples to teslas ?
Why is the concept of an electric vehicle "liberal minded?"
Because it is stupid.
Fentonite
02-26-2019, 10:22
I'm holding out until Apple makes an electric car.
Why, so it’ll become obsolete and need replacing every 18-24 months?
UrbanWolf
02-26-2019, 10:29
I'm holding out until Apple makes an electric car.
But will they have windows on them?
UrbanWolf
02-26-2019, 10:30
Liberal minded thread anyways....how about if when you want to go on a freak tangent about whatever, and want to make a big deal about an idea.....you get a special avatar pass.
The big chicken choker avatar. You know, like when in marriage counseling when you get the chicken choker "talking stick". I hear you, you hear me, we fall back in love and buy an electric car.
Ideas, comments?
So because he like EVs then he has to be Liberal?
Scanker19
02-26-2019, 10:30
What’s the point of this thread? Honestly. To say Electric cars aren’t too bad. Or to say people that don’t agree with electric cars are
Dumb?
UrbanWolf
02-26-2019, 10:31
So should I buy an electric or what? What?s the best one for me?
If you just drive a boring car to work then you might as well buy an EV, I drive a boring car in a boring commute everyday, that's why I also plan to buy one.
UrbanWolf
02-26-2019, 10:35
What’s the point of this thread? Honestly. To say Electric cars aren’t too bad. Or to say people that don’t agree with electric cars are
Dumb?
Same as any thread on General forum, information for us, what we think of it is our business.
OldFogey
02-26-2019, 10:35
Indeed. They will pull extremely well.
Range is the limitation that exists.
Post the next jump in battery tech (we're overdue, and I honestly think Tesla will be the primary driving force, likely the inventor, there), the use of EV will be rampant.
That's the rub. This discussion is mostly moot until they make the next breakthrough in energy storage. We are still using galvanic technology but with more modern materials. Electric motors have plenty of torque and power, don't require a transmission, the benefits are plentiful. Those huge mining dump trucks use electric hub motors on each wheel. BUT they get their juice from diesel. Ev's now are the beginnings of the next evolution of vehicle technology, but just like buying the first generations of anything, those buyers get to be the beta testers. I'll wait for energy storage that allows for more flexibility in my choice of vehicle. And, since new tech is so expensive, sometimes the government decides to "help". All of the "free" stuff comes from somewhere. Supposedly the companies absorb the cost of that. In reality, we know they pass these costs on to the consumer. When they can't pass them on to the consumer:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/01/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen/
OldFogey
02-26-2019, 10:36
But will they have windows on them?
Touche'!
https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/01/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen/
Thank you!
I gave it a try to read through this thread, can't do it. It's a neat idea, but it ain't gonna work out for everyone in the long run.
It's probably fun trying to convince everyone I suppose, and at the same time it seems like something I'd see on a libtard board too. The same board that has Vegan recipes and fun stuff on Etsy too.
If you think me a liberal because of my choice of vehicle then you clearly don't know enough about me as a person to make such generalizations.
What a clusterfuck, again.
Never fails man. Someone brings something to the table that goes against what others believe to be fact (based on what information is a mystery) and they're branded a lunatic. This is largely a defense mechanism to protect the delicate ego of those who can't handle having to reevaluate something they believe to be fact based on decades old information. If you believe in your information you should be willing and able to keep a level head while having a conversation about it with someone rather than resorting to name calling and personal attacks instead. This is how those who first presented evidence that the earth wasn't flat to those who refused to believe the data must have felt.
Any firemen here? You guys getting any special training on electric vehicles? The door handle thing aside, what about electric vehicle fires?
I know a few and was actually quite surprised by how few (from various departments) have had any training on EVs. This isn't cutting edge tech we're talking about as most of the vehicles on the roads today have been out for 7+ years now. I even point out the location they need to cut under the hood in the frunk to disable the 12v battery system should they need to and most had never seen it. Haters try to make it seem like EVs are rolling bombs but in reality all vehicles are forms of rolling bombs. You transport stored energy in one form or another and it's a potential fire/hazard so this is a problem all modern transportation faces. A necessary evil if you want to get from point A to point B faster we've come to accept.
I still think bio diesel is the way to go. Algae produces an oil. Just feed it sewage and biowaste. Same algae that made fossil fuels. 7000 plus batteries to power an EV? Seems overly complicated to me. Maybe some quantum computing of lithium cell design is in order?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery
I like the potential of this but I also feel like we've heard about this our whole life and it's really not grown any legs. If there is something to this I think we would have seen more advancements by now but maybe that's just lack of funding or drive. Dunno?
What I do know is that if it's a fuel for a diesel system there are still a LOT of moving parts to that solution. You say that 7k batteries is complex and to me it's the opposite. It's quite literally one single item with no moving parts replicated thousands of times and then managed on an individual basis via software and computers that have the power to manage each one individually. Sounds complex to someone who doesn't understand the concept but once you see that it's not witchcraft and is indeed complex for the engineers and programmers but in practice the package is quite simple with very few moving parts to complicate things or break down.
That's one of the big detractors IMO for ICE (to include ANY fuel source, even your algae example) is the thousands of moving parts, most all being unique, and any of of them that fail can render the entire system inoperable. An EV has only dozens or possibly hundreds of moving parts depending on the complexity of the "features/options" offered. Simple math tells you fewer moving parts is more reliable and real world data supports it. If you spin a rod bearing in an ICE vehicle you're stranded. If one of the 7,000 cells in the array fail the computer takes it out of commission and recovers it via charge/discharge and can entirely disable it for safety if that ever becomes an issue. All of this happens behind the scenes and unknown to the end user. The result is something that's complicated on paper (especially if you or I had to egniener it alone) but quite simple in use.
Hydrogen powdered?
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html
Musk doesnt like them, so there maybe so truth to the article?
There's some true bits to this but, as is with most of these "news" articles these days whose sole mission is to get clicks, a lot of what was said was taken out of context.
My personal stance is that this should be the direction for larger applications and electric power isn't ideal for something like a long-haul semi tractor trailer. Elon has even agreed in the past that this would likely be the most efficient power source for this application but that they don't build hydrogen vehicles so they're taking what they know and applying it to a better solution since nobody else seems motivated to innovate. The hope is that this will spur someone else to build a better mousetrap faster so to speak. That's kind of the larger overall stated intent of Tesla as an entity is to accelerate the curve towards sustainable energy. He's even been on record (to the stock's determent) of saying that he has dumped millions of his own dollars into the company fully expecting it to fail but that it was important for humanity. Fast forward several years though and Tesla is turning a profit and is even prepared for the impending world-wide recession that we're poised to see (the layoffs that all of the haters assume is signs of trouble) so there's far less concerns of failure now than there was say 5-6 years ago.
Why is the concept of an electric vehicle "liberal minded?"
Good question.
But will they have windows on them?
Bazinga!
So because he like EVs then he has to be Liberal?
You know me... big ol' patchouli smoking tree-hugger that lives in Boulder and grew up in the big city!
What?s the point of this thread? Honestly. To say Electric cars aren?t too bad. Or to say people that don?t agree with electric cars are
Dumb?
It's quite simple: provide some facts for those who care to know the full story in order to make up their own mind. Too many people spout BS they heard from a guy as fact and for more are willing to believe this and parrot it to the point it gets spoken in reality. There are a few in this forum who actually find these sorts of topics interesting even if they aren't verbal about it. Some will ask questions and if I know the answer I'm happy to help wherever possible. It should be a simple conversation but for some reason a select few get very emotional and then project their emotion onto me because if they're emotional then I must be too, right? Not sure where the aggression comes from but it's not a place of stability & reason.
If you just drive a boring car to work then you might as well buy an EV, I drive a boring car in a boring commute everyday, that's why I also plan to buy one.
This is basically the wheelhouse of EV since so many have been budget minded and cookie cutter type utilitarian before Tesla came along. You can pick up used EVs in the $10k or less range these days if all you care about is point A to point B and you'll probably be amazed at how well it performs this most basic of tasks that most will use their car for 99% of the time. Personally I just don't like cookie cutter cars so I wasn't as interested in that style of EV but that doesn't mean I can't see the value to someone who does.
Same as any thread on General forum, information for us, what we think of it is our business.
Someone gets it.
Thank you!
For what? Posting up an link to a post from over four years ago that is by and large fabricated BS then with skewed numbers that are outdated now? You mean to tell me you couldn't find something to fit that bill? They're everywhere! lol
Here's a more recent post with more recent information that addresses a few of the "points" made in that link above:
Click me for information on the "Tesla subsidies" (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/18/tesla-subsidized-whats-truth-claims-tesla-spacex-elon-musk-wealth-exist-subsidies/)
It should be noted that this was basically the first think that came up in Google and there are TONS of similar and fact-based reads if you genuinely care to learn more. I could search for and post dozens but if you don't read one with an objective mindset what does it matter?
Have a coworkerwho loves his Tesla model 3. Great car for his castle rock to aurora commute, and running around town car. Interesting ride with less compromises than a bolt or similar car as far as range and vehicle carrying capacity go.
A few of my east coast hunting buddies have hybrid priuses that they love taking out to prius gatherings....all the gun stickers, off road tires and custom made vehicle gun vaults set them apart from their crowds...
BushMasterBoy
02-26-2019, 13:02
My statements are based on ecological impact to the earth. We need to stop adding CO2 to the atmosphere. We also need to stop pumping our sewage the oceans. Almost all the oxygen comes from the oceans. I saw the smog over Denver metro area last week. It was horrendous. So bad it gave me a cluster headache as soon as I got to the Tech Center area.
I have a electronics/physics background and have seen the devastation of the coral reefs in Florida as a scuba diver. We are slowly killing this planet.
newracer
02-26-2019, 13:10
I have recently thought about getting an electric motorcycle or car as I can charge it (4 hour limit) for free at work.
https://www.wired.com/story/hyundai-nexo-review-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric/
I have recently thought about getting an electric motorcycle or car as I can charge it (4 hour limit) for free at work.
I remember when one of my former co-worker (Earl) re-joined Lee Iacocca to make electric bike. It was about late 1997.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/814727/New-electrifying-idea-Lee-Iacoccas-E-Bike.html
IT came a long way from 22 years ago. lol
OldFogey posts a link that explains the subsidies Tesla takes, and you rebut it with a link that says the same thing - except your link tried to keep up the "Tesla paid off their loan early" nonsense that is explained in OldFogey's link.
You continue to use the word "facts" when you pontificate on the glory of Tesla. However, your "facts" are what is widely disputed, and you have yet to back them up with actual published data.
Tesla is a F'n cult, and you are simply passing out the Kool-Aid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
Tesla P100D can go 10.7 in the 1/4 mile...I'd like to join that cult
OldFogey posts a link that explains the subsidies Tesla takes, and you rebut it with a link that says the same thing - except your link tried to keep up the "Tesla paid off their loan early" nonsense that is explained in OldFogey's link.
You continue to use the word "facts" when you pontificate on the glory of Tesla. However, your "facts" are what is widely disputed, and you have yet to back them up with actual published data.
Tesla is a F'n cult, and you are simply passing out the Kool-Aid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7c2fb_dps
So your checkmate move is saying that there are zealots of Tesla?
You're right. Your stance is so fact based and overwhelming. lol
I read some but not all of this. In general, EVs will develop over time; it will be interesting to see what they can do in the future. What does irritate me is that it takes time for infrastructure changes, and some people want the change right now regardless if people can afford to make the change or not or if they are financially hurt by it or not. The whole damn thing is too political, which I hate. I am staunchly against forcing people to use new technology; technology and infrastructure should follow a natural life cycle and transition through attrition based on the market of what people want and need. The people that are interested by all means develop the technology. If it is viable, people will want it. If it's not, they won't.
It really comes down to money. My last new vehicle I purchased was in 2006. I have what I need to make it through 2026 when I retire. At that time, I will upgrade my diesel flatbed dually truck that I will use when I move to my off-grid location. However, it won't be new; not even close given the insane prices of trucks these days. Even if I wanted to drive an EV, and there was one that met my needs; the cost of buying new vehicles both EV and internal combustion is outrageous; I have no desire to waste my resources purchasing a new vehicle of any kind. I'm certainly not going to purchase a new vehicle I drive into the ground commuting to work.
As far as the technology, I thought about converting an old 4x4 into an EV that I could use for bug out and charge off solar panels; there is some pretty cool stuff on the market now. Also, I will be 100% off-grid when I retire so I will be using the hybrid solar/wind/storage tech that is coming out now. I do like that part of it; finding uses that benefit me...not forcing me to do something that just costs me piles of money I don't have.
buffalobo
02-26-2019, 15:18
I read some but not all of this. In general, EVs will develop over time; it will be interesting to see what they can do in the future. What does irritate me is that it takes time for infrastructure changes, and some people want the change right now regardless if people can afford to make the change or not or if they are financially hurt by it or not. The whole damn thing is too political, which I hate. I am staunchly against forcing people to use new technology; technology and infrastructure should follow a natural life cycle and transition through attrition based on the market of what people want and need. The people that are interested by all means develop the technology. If it is viable, people will want it. If it's not, they won't.
It really comes down to money. My last new vehicle I purchased was in 2006. I have what I need to make it through 2026 when I retire. At that time, I will upgrade my diesel flatbed dually truck that I will use when I move to my off-grid location. However, it won't be new; not even close given the insane prices of trucks these days. Even if I wanted to drive an EV, and there was one that met my needs; the cost of buying new vehicles both EV and internal combustion is outrageous; I have no desire to waste my resources purchasing a new vehicle of any kind. I'm certainly not going to purchase a new vehicle I drive into the ground commuting to work.
As far as the technology, I thought about converting an old 4x4 into an EV that I could use for bug out and charge off solar panels; there is some pretty cool stuff on the market now. Also, I will be 100% off-grid when I retire so I will be using the hybrid solar/wind/storage tech that is coming out now. I do like that part of it; finding uses that benefit me...not forcing me to do something that just costs me piles of money I don't have.Well said.
newracer
02-26-2019, 15:22
I remember when one of my former co-worker (Earl) re-joined Lee Iacocca to make electric bike. It was about late 1997.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/814727/New-electrifying-idea-Lee-Iacoccas-E-Bike.html
IT came a long way from 22 years ago. lol
This is one I am considering.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/
Buddy in Virginia has that bike...he loves it, nothing but nice things to say about it... primarily a commuter for him, but he does do some trail riding with it
BushMasterBoy
02-26-2019, 16:17
And the bad news...16,000,000 tons of lithium known reserves on the planet earth. Largest known deposit is in Chile. Only known resource in the US is Nevada brine well. My guess is domestic production is 2000 tons a year. At least I know my fuel injected vehicles can run on 25% ethanol.
Reference link below for source:
https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lithium/mcs-2018-lithi.pdf
hollohas
02-26-2019, 16:56
And the bad news...16,000,000 tons of lithium known reserves on the planet earth. Largest known deposit is in Chile. Only known resource in the US is Nevada brine well. My guess is domestic production is 2000 tons a year. At least I know my fuel injected vehicles can run on 25% ethanol.
Reference link below for source:
https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lithium/mcs-2018-lithi.pdfSo, EV's = 100% dependence on foreign energy with current technology. No thanks.
When TSLA was at 90s/sr, Jimmy Cramer called TSLA a CULT STOCK. [LOL]
Funny that I like Cramer, EXCEPT HIS SHOW "Mad Money."
Thst show sucks.
Great-Kazoo
02-26-2019, 18:02
This is one I am considering.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/
Call for lower price
https://www.onanymoto.com/New-Inventory-2018-Zero-Motorcycle-Scooter-DSR-ZF14-4-On-Any-Moto-5721181?ref=list
Oh man, I'd love an e-bike to zip around my neighborhood.
Great-Kazoo
02-26-2019, 18:26
Oh man, I'd love an e-bike to zip around my neighborhood.
This is a good one for local and possibly your land up north. I like it for off road use,such as setting up targets wayyy out there.
https://www.amazon.com/ECOTRIC-Electric-Bicycle-Mountain-Shimano/dp/B07HLVNX84/ref=sr_1_35?hvadid=78546428991559&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=electric+bike+hub+motor&qid=1551226924&s=gateway&sr=8-35&tag=mh0b-20
BushMasterBoy
02-26-2019, 18:26
This is what DOE has to say about algae biofuel. I know DOD has experimented with it in military aircraft. I was thinking grow this stuff in the desert wastelands and just use petroleum products for lubrication.
"The United States Department of Energy estimates that if algae fuel replaced all the petroleum fuel in the United States, it would require 15,000 square miles (39,000 km2), which is only 0.42% of the U.S. map, or about half of the land area of Maine. This is less than 1⁄7 the area of corn harvested in the United States in 2000."
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
This is a good one for local and possibly your land up north. I like it for off road use,such as setting up targets wayyy out there.
https://www.amazon.com/ECOTRIC-Electric-Bicycle-Mountain-Shimano/dp/B07HLVNX84/ref=sr_1_35?hvadid=78546428991559&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=electric+bike+hub+motor&qid=1551226924&s=gateway&sr=8-35&tag=mh0b-20
I've thought of buying a kit for my current bike. Probably too much cactus and goat heads up North for a bike like that unless fat bikes do better with that stuff. That'd be super fun though.
Tier 1 operator would ride on EV and EV motorcycle for stealth and deadly ninjitsu quietness.
Tier 1 operator would ride on EV and EV motorcycle for stealth and deadly ninjitsu quietness.
If loud pipes save lives, are you going to put playing cards in the spokes?
OtterbatHellcat
02-26-2019, 20:56
That's funny shit.
If loud pipes save lives, are you going to put playing cards in the spokes?
I already saved lots of lives by not putting tier1 high octane LEADED gas on my previous vehicle.
Unleaded it is.
Great-Kazoo
02-26-2019, 21:10
I've thought of buying a kit for my current bike. Probably too much cactus and goat heads up North for a bike like that unless fat bikes do better with that stuff. That'd be super fun though.
Likewise down here
The Tier 1 preventative
https://www.ride-onshop.com/
The Tier 1 preventative
https://www.ride-onshop.com/
Ride-On Tire Protection System (TPS) tire sealants will eliminate 85-95% of your flat tires in tubless tires.
100% of my tires are tubless.
I read some but not all of this. In general, EVs will develop over time; it will be interesting to see what they can do in the future. What does irritate me is that it takes time for infrastructure changes, and some people want the change right now regardless if people can afford to make the change or not or if they are financially hurt by it or not. The whole damn thing is too political, which I hate. I am staunchly against forcing people to use new technology; technology and infrastructure should follow a natural life cycle and transition through attrition based on the market of what people want and need. The people that are interested by all means develop the technology. If it is viable, people will want it. If it's not, they won't.
It really comes down to money. My last new vehicle I purchased was in 2006. I have what I need to make it through 2026 when I retire. At that time, I will upgrade my diesel flatbed dually truck that I will use when I move to my off-grid location. However, it won't be new; not even close given the insane prices of trucks these days. Even if I wanted to drive an EV, and there was one that met my needs; the cost of buying new vehicles both EV and internal combustion is outrageous; I have no desire to waste my resources purchasing a new vehicle of any kind. I'm certainly not going to purchase a new vehicle I drive into the ground commuting to work.
As far as the technology, I thought about converting an old 4x4 into an EV that I could use for bug out and charge off solar panels; there is some pretty cool stuff on the market now. Also, I will be 100% off-grid when I retire so I will be using the hybrid solar/wind/storage tech that is coming out now. I do like that part of it; finding uses that benefit me...not forcing me to do something that just costs me piles of money I don't have.
Well said.
Yes, MED said it well.
100% of my tires are tubless.
Nice.
If we?re talking total tires of all vehicles then I think I?m at 90% tubeless.
68Charger
02-27-2019, 22:03
Nice.
If we?re talking total tires of all vehicles then I think I?m at 90% tubeless.
But I'm sure you're 100% "tubless" (whatever that is)
I've heard of wheel tubs on drag cars... does that make "tub less tires" a thing?
Stupid phone. Ha.
I suppose mostly homeless people are tubless. Or maybe some people own homes with only walk in showers.
If car is fun/affordable/dependable to drive, I will get
ICE
ICE + Turbo
ICE + kinetic Motor generated unit
ICE+ Turbo + kinetic Motor Generated unit
Electric motor
Fairly dust
Hydrogen
Diesel
Fusion
Fission
Steam
Carnot
etc
So far, N/A ICE tend to be one of the most reliable and low maintenance vehicles out there.
Just watched the south park episode about hybrid vehicles and reminded me of this thread!
I’ll be sticking with my one ton diesel truck! ��
I think "Fairly dust" is already available as an option. I think that describes some of my early vehicles. I didn't wash them for fear it might wash off what was holding them together.
So far, N/A ICE tend to be one of the most reliable and low maintenance vehicles out there.
On what information are you basing this?
Just watched the south park episode about hybrid vehicles and reminded me of this thread!
I’ll be sticking with my one ton diesel truck! ��
I often base large buying decisions on what Matt & Trey tell me to think via cartoon signing.
ChickNorris
02-28-2019, 08:45
That explains it folks!
Great-Kazoo
02-28-2019, 08:52
I think "Fairly dust" is already available as an option. I think that describes some of my early vehicles. I didn't wash them for fear it might wash off what was holding them together.
Thought Fairy Dust was a house cleaning service, out of the Cheeseman park area
I often base large buying decisions on what Matt & Trey tell me to think via cartoon signing.
Lots god good life lesson in that show[ROFL1][Beer]
On what information are you ,basing this?
Cost,mass availability and abundant parts and indy mechanics.
So. Does autozone or napa sells tsla parts??
I am sure you saw RICHREBUILDS on YouTube.
I am not going to buy junk s/x/3 just to fix my Tesla after warranty.
ROFL.
Forums on cost of ownership of tesla after warranty expires.
This is very reason there are lots of people who are betting against TSLA (Short sellers).
When Saudis stop hedging against oil with TSLA. [Coffee]
https://www.google.com/search?q=owning+tesla+after+warranty+expires&oq=owning+tesla+after+wa&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j33l3.7660j1j7&client=ms-android-boost-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Patience Fans made this.
https://youtu.be/nq5c4jGR2gM
https://youtu.be/iR4CFiuR3tQ
Cost,mass availability and abundant parts and indy mechanics.
So. Does autozone or napa sells tsla parts??
I am sure you saw RICHREBUILDS on YouTube.
I am not going to buy junk s/x/3 just to fix my Tesla after warranty.
ROFL.
Forums on cost of ownership of tesla after warranty expires.
This is very reason there are lots of people who are betting against TSLA (Short sellers).
When Saudis stop hedging against oil with TSLA. [Coffee]
https://www.google.com/search?q=owning+tesla+after+warranty+expires&oq=owning+tesla+after+wa&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j33l3.7660j1j7&client=ms-android-boost-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Now you want to deflect as if it's some sort of a question about availability of parts and cost to replace? You said specifically:
So far, N/A ICE tend to be one of the most reliable and low maintenance vehicles out there.
The simple fact is that EV is both more reliable AND much lower maintenance since there's basically none. It's really not even close in those two categories either.
No, NAPA doesn't sell Tesla battery packs but with as low maintenance as these cars are I won't have to go to a NAPA again other than for wiper blades and brake pads... the latter of which lasting people a quarter million miles or more in most cases due to regenerative braking since you rarely use your brakes.
So, would you rather have the REQUIREMENT to go to NAPA regularly but... hey, at least they usually have all the parts you need!... or would you rather not have to go to a parts store at all or be stranded on the side of a highway because [insert one of the thousands of moving parts ICE cars have here] failed and left you stranded?
A Tesla has a battery pack, motor, differential (open for reliability, simplicity, lack of maintenance and handling of torque) and axles. That's the end of the list of drive-train parts that can fail. Tesla also gives you a full 8 years and unlimited miles warranty on all of those items. People ask me how much the battery in my used Tesla will cost to replace when it fails to which my response is "What do I care? I have a warranty on this thing until 2023" and by then they'll be far, far cheaper anyway. I played a similar game with the Camry Hybrid we bought so long ago when they first came out. Everyone was so caught up with the cost of the battery and we drove that car nearly 100k miles w/o a single moment of problems. The amount we saved on gas far outweighed the price difference for the Hybrid and we had a car that was more fun to drive than the crappy base 4cyl Camry would have been. People kept talking about the $8k battery replacement cost and by the time we sold it that cost to replace (before it was even out of warranty) had already dropped to like $1,500. Tesla is building their own massive factories to increase volume specifically to lower price of the battery. By the time I need to worry about replacement cost they're be 1/4 the cost that they are now or probably even less.
Show me another car you can buy that's 3-years-old with 80k miles on it that will come with an unlimited mile warranty for 8 years from the date of manufacturer on all drive-train parts for free. They can afford to do this because of how reliable all of these parts are. Now that we're seeing worst-case-scenario torture use cars go beyond 400k with about 10% battery degradation it's making the need to replace seem like an even more irrelevant discussion. How many engines, transmissions, clutches, alternators, timing belts, water pumps, etc. would an ICE car need in half a million miles?
Now, if you want to get into a discussion about availability of said parts and cost to replace we certainly can but that's now what you presented as fact. It's crap like that that gets posted that people read and assume is true.
Now you want to deflect as if it's some sort of a question about availability of parts and cost to replace? You said specifically:
The simple fact is that EV is both more reliable AND much lower maintenance since there's basically none. It's really not even close in those two categories either.
No, NAPA doesn't sell Tesla battery packs but with as low maintenance as these cars are I won't have to go to a NAPA again other than for wiper blades and brake pads... the latter of which lasting people a quarter million miles or more in most cases due to regenerative braking since you rarely use your brakes.
So, would you rather have the REQUIREMENT to go to NAPA regularly but... hey, at least they usually have all the parts you need!... or would you rather not have to go to a parts store at all or be stranded on the side of a highway because [insert one of the thousands of moving parts ICE cars have here] failed and left you stranded?
A Tesla has a battery pack, motor, differential (open for reliability, simplicity, lack of maintenance and handling of torque) and axles. That's the end of the list of drive-train parts that can fail. Tesla also gives you a full 8 years and unlimited miles warranty on all of those items. People ask me how much the battery in my used Tesla will cost to replace when it fails to which my response is "What do I care? I have a warranty on this thing until 2023" and by then they'll be far, far cheaper anyway. I played a similar game with the Camry Hybrid we bought so long ago when they first came out. Everyone was so caught up with the cost of the battery and we drove that car nearly 100k miles w/o a single moment of problems. The amount we saved on gas far outweighed the price difference for the Hybrid and we had a car that was more fun to drive than the crappy base 4cyl Camry would have been. People kept talking about the $8k battery replacement cost and by the time we sold it that cost to replace (before it was even out of warranty) had already dropped to like $1,500. Tesla is building their own massive factories to increase volume specifically to lower price of the battery. By the time I need to worry about replacement cost they're be 1/4 the cost that they are now or probably even less.
Show me another car you can buy that's 3-years-old with 80k miles on it that will come with an unlimited mile warranty for 8 years from the date of manufacturer on all drive-train parts for free. They can afford to do this because of how reliable all of these parts are. Now that we're seeing worst-case-scenario torture use cars go beyond 400k with about 10% battery degradation it's making the need to replace seem like an even more irrelevant discussion. How many engines, transmissions, clutches, alternators, timing belts, water pumps, etc. would an ICE car need in half a million miles?
Now, if you want to get into a discussion about availability of said parts and cost to replace we certainly can but that's now what you presented as fact. It's crap like that that gets posted that people read and assume is true.
I wanna see you owning S model after your warranty expires.
My brother called me yesterday saying he saw a Porsche Cayanne S for sale for $5,800 and should we buy it. I told him no way in hell. Luxury cars are a shit show to repair and I guarantee you'd have to spend at least that much right up front to fix whatever issues are there.
I wanna see you owning S model after your warranty expires.
And just how radically different do you think that ownership will be? Personally, I feel like that's where these cars shine since you don't have to worry about all sorts of old and dying parts failing. That I didn't pay $150k for a brand new car and the depreciation that comes with this to get the reliability.
Your video shows a guy complaining about doing having to do the repairs himself yet he really isn't complaining if you watch it entirely. Midway through he talks about how easy the cars are to work on and I've already experienced this first-hand.
Example: One of the more common problems earlier versions of the Model S had is the door handles which he mentions. He says they're about $1,000 each which is partially true. At one time they were that expensive when they first came out. There was a common issue where someone (either at time of manufacturing or a tech during service) would zip tie the loose wires inside thinking this was better. The problem is that this would cause the wires that move with the handle to bend around corners and over time the thin wires would fail. The next version of the handles used cheaper gears in a money saving effort. The previous handles used gear parts made in Canada and the new ones used gear parts made in China. Ultimately this move saved less than a dollar per handle and had they known it would cause as many failures they never would have made the move. This door handle in total was less than $800 so the cost savings worked but the result was a gear that was cheap and would fail causing the handles to not present. The handle still worked it just didn't raise out to great you. The solution? Tesla sourced a better gear part that increased reliability drastically. Anyone can buy this $2 part which was a steel skeletonized gear, take apart the handle and replace yourself. The newest version of the handles have all of these upgrades in place and are pretty reliable long-term. Just part of the growing pains of designing something all-new that nobody has ever made before. It also is making a mountain out of a mole hill in terms of the engineering feats the car includes. I've had all four of mine replaced under warranty for free with all of the newest parts so I'm confident that these handles will last quite a while (quarter million+ miles?) and if they ever fail I'm out $2 and less than an hour of my time. Considering what it cost me to change the oil in my cars and how long it took each time I'd say I have that to spare and then some.
So in this example we're supposed to be upset about not being able to walk into a dealership and buying that complete door handle assembly for $1,000 versus fixing it yourself for $2?
This is but one example. The videos created even six months ago about not being able to work on your own car are way out of date. Tesla has made available the manuals with part #'s and schematics after pressure from people just like RichRebuilds and other used owners like myself. The aftermarket is growing rapidly with parts being made for Tesla cars. There are tons of used parts now on the secondary market and entire markets that exist to buy and sell used Tesla parts with very good prices.
If you're someone who, like me, prefers to do all of your own work on your cars none of this matters. I never walked into a Toyota dealership and paid retail price on brand new Toyota parts anyway so who cares? When my struts on my Tacoma wear out I'm not going into a Toyota dealership to pay full retail on OEM springs and struts when I can get aftermarket that are much better for a fraction of the price. Just another in the massive list of Tesla FUD.
And just how radically different do you think that ownership will be? Personally, I feel like that's where these cars shine since you don't have to worry about all sorts of old and dying parts failing. That I didn't pay $150k for a brand new car and the depreciation that comes with this to get the reliability.
Your video shows a guy complaining about doing having to do the repairs himself yet he really isn't complaining if you watch it entirely. Midway through he talks about how easy the cars are to work on and I've already experienced this first-hand.
Example: One of the more common problems earlier versions of the Model S had is the door handles which he mentions. He says they're about $1,000 each which is partially true. At one time they were that expensive when they first came out. There was a common issue where someone (either at time of manufacturing or a tech during service) would zip tie the loose wires inside thinking this was better. The problem is that this would cause the wires that move with the handle to bend around corners and over time the thin wires would fail. The next version of the handles used cheaper gears in a money saving effort. The previous handles used gear parts made in Canada and the new ones used gear parts made in China. Ultimately this move saved less than a dollar per handle and had they known it would cause as many failures they never would have made the move. This door handle in total was less than $800 so the cost savings worked but the result was a gear that was cheap and would fail causing the handles to not present. The handle still worked it just didn't raise out to great you. The solution? Tesla sourced a better gear part that increased reliability drastically. Anyone can buy this $2 part which was a steel skeletonized gear, take apart the handle and replace yourself. The newest version of the handles have all of these upgrades in place and are pretty reliable long-term. Just part of the growing pains of designing something all-new that nobody has ever made before. It also is making a mountain out of a mole hill in terms of the engineering feats the car includes. I've had all four of mine replaced under warranty for free with all of the newest parts so I'm confident that these handles will last quite a while (quarter million+ miles?) and if they ever fail I'm out $2 and less than an hour of my time. Considering what it cost me to change the oil in my cars and how long it took each time I'd say I have that to spare and then some.
So in this example we're supposed to be upset about not being able to walk into a dealership and buying that complete door handle assembly for $1,000 versus fixing it yourself for $2?
This is but one example. The videos created even six months ago about not being able to work on your own car are way out of date. Tesla has made available the manuals with part #'s and schematics after pressure from people just like RichRebuilds and other used owners like myself. The aftermarket is growing rapidly with parts being made for Tesla cars. There are tons of used parts now on the secondary market and entire markets that exist to buy and sell used Tesla parts with very good prices.
If you're someone who, like me, prefers to do all of your own work on your cars none of this matters. I never walked into a Toyota dealership and paid retail price on brand new Toyota parts anyway so who cares? When my struts on my Tacoma wear out I'm not going into a Toyota dealership to pay full retail on OEM springs and struts when I can get aftermarket that are much better for a fraction of the price. Just another in the massive list of Tesla FUD.
When lots of S models hit the used market or when many people junk their cars near/distant future,I am sure there would be some massive availability of parts.
When that happens, I am sure Tesla will lower the marginal cost due to massive quantity of parts.
Before than, not gonna consider it.
I already know too many Tesla owners and 2 without warranty. They fell into Elon's spell around wa y before you did. Of course ones with warranty are extremely happy. 2 without warranty is about to buy different vehicles.
They basically bought tesla with Tesla cap gain (in at 85/sr). Meaning they also did their homework early on.
I did my homework on TSLA even before this cult following, and it is just not for me.
Give you props for thinking about post warranty ownership, but I just cannot commit to that kinda labor that s model requires.
Looks way more complicated than 911 GT3.
I have no issues with Tesla owner. It is my preference not owing it. In fact, I would rather own used high maintenance Mclaren 650s than tesla 100d out of warranty.
I have 1 vehicle out of warranty, 1 is about to go in 2 years and I can manage to keep those. (And they are as b1tch to work on relative to porsche 997/991 911 ).
As for me,it is:
availability of parts.
Post warranty issues
Cost and availability of fixing at indy shop (complicated stuffs).
Again, it will most likely get solved near/distant future, but not now.
Just curious, what about parts not part of the powertrain? Hope readily available are those of something needs fixed out of warranty?
But also, there are quite a few dealerships in the US that offer free lifetime powertrain warranties if you buy new from them. I know new vs used, but lifetime. You just have to keep up with scheduled maintenance. Most you can even take to any certified repair shop for the work.
When lots of S models hit the used market or when many people junk their cars near/distant future,I am sure there would be some massive availability of parts.
When that happens, I am sure Tesla will lower the marginal cost due to massive quantity of parts.
Before than, not gonna consider it.
I already know too many Tesla owners and 2 without warranty. They fell into Elon's spell around wa y before you did. Of course ones with warranty are extremely happy. 2 without warranty is about to buy different vehicles.
They basically bought tesla with Tesla cap gain (in at 85/sr). Meaning they also did their homework early on.
I did my homework on TSLA even before this cult following, and it is just not for me.
Give you props for thinking about post warranty ownership, but I just cannot commit to that kinda labor that s model requires.
Looks way more complicated than 911 GT3.
I have no issues with Tesla owner. It is my preference not owing it. In fact, I would rather own used high maintenance Mclaren 650s than tesla 100d out of warranty.
I have 1 vehicle out of warranty, 1 is about to go in 2 years and I can manage to keep those. (And they are as b1tch to work on relative to porsche 997/991 911 ).
As for me,it is:
availability of parts.
Post warranty issues
Cost and availability of fixing at indy shop (complicated stuffs).
Again, it will most likely get solved near/distant future, but not now.
Like I said, there already is a massive availability of used parts. The amount of people buying totaled cars to part-out has been rapidly growing for quite some time now. This isn't new either. There really isn't any part you can't buy from known and trustworthy sellers now.
Again, I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on information that was relevant six months to a year or more ago. This Tesla is rapidly evolving for the better and that's part of the point of these posts is to bring new and accurate information to a group that probably isn't actively seeking out this information every month or two on their own.
You keep talking about committing to labor that post-warranty Tesla ownership requires which is comical because you don't factor in the labor you invest all of the time of your ICE car. How much time you spend going to or at gas stations. How much time you invest to change your oil or take it someone who have changed. How much time you invest on timing belt changes or taking it somewhere. Even less complex maintenance like changing an air filter takes time, more on some cars. The list of maintenance items you have to deal with or pay someone else to deal with is long and this all takes time. Even with an ICE car there is a time commitment and it's actually much greater but we're so used to it that we don't consider it. But investing an hour to fix a door handle every quarter million miles... nah, that's just too much time commitment.
You only say it looks more complicated than a 911 GT3 because you don't understand it anywhere near as much as you claim you do. Simplified: thousands of moving parts versus dozens/hundreds of moving parts. EVs are FAR less complex than ICE vehicles. Guns are also scary things to those who don't understand how they work. Same concept.
You would rather own a McClaren 650 out of warranty than a Tesla Model S 100D? Now I know you're just being anti-EV because those things are in the shop more than they're on the road and the repair bills are ALWAYS in the tens of thousands of dollars. Engine rebuilds are the norm and good luck keeping a transmission under it. If that's your honest stance then you really know nothing about Tesla or it's reliability and maintenance or you're just trying to be argumentative.
Just curious, what about parts not part of the powertrain? Hope readily available are those of something needs fixed out of warranty?
But also, there are quite a few dealerships in the US that offer free lifetime powertrain warranties if you buy new from them. I know new vs used, but lifetime. You just have to keep up with scheduled maintenance. Most you can even take to any certified repair shop for the work.
Like I said multiple times now.... you can literally buy any part the car is made up of on the used market. Anything. The false narrative is that Tesla won't sell you parts and you can't get them anywhere so if something breaks you're screwed. That's simply not how it works.
That's IF you buy new and IF you buy from a dealer and IF you pay their absurd rate for the maintenance. It's a sales tactic. It's not an unlimited manufacturer's powertrain warranty which is what we're talking about here. That also stays with the original purchaser of the vehicle.
All new Teslas came with an 8 year unlimited mile powertrain warranty that follows the car to every owner for free. That's easily the most comprehensive warranty in the biz from ANY automobile manufacturer. Don't believe me? Here's a list: Click me (https://www.motor1.com/features/253277/comparing-new-vehicle-warranties/). You'll see that Tesla is the ONLY one on that list that's unlimited powertrain warranty and there's a reason for that. The other best options are only 100k miles with most coming in at the 50-60k range. ICE vehicles will have more problems because they're not as reliable so if manufacturers tried to warranty them with unlimited miles for 8 years for whoever owned the car they'd be bankrupt after about 6 years. That alone should be enough proof of how much more reliable EVs are long term. Hell, the Volt was the most reliable car GM ever made.
Like I said, there already is a massive availability of used parts. The amount of people buying totaled cars to part-out has been rapidly growing for quite some time now. This isn't new either. There really isn't any part you can't buy from known and trustworthy sellers now.
Again, I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on information that was relevant six months to a year or more ago. This Tesla is rapidly evolving for the better and that's part of the point of these posts is to bring new and accurate information to a group that probably isn't actively seeking out this information every month or two on their own.
You keep talking about committing to labor that post-warranty Tesla ownership requires which is comical because you don't factor in the labor you invest all of the time of your ICE car. How much time you spend going to or at gas stations. How much time you invest to change your oil or take it someone who have changed. How much time you invest on timing belt changes or taking it somewhere. Even less complex maintenance like changing an air filter takes time, more on some cars. The list of maintenance items you have to deal with or pay someone else to deal with is long and this all takes time. Even with an ICE car there is a time commitment and it's actually much greater but we're so used to it that we don't consider it. But investing an hour to fix a door handle every quarter million miles... nah, that's just too much time commitment.
You only say it looks more complicated than a 911 GT3 because you don't understand it anywhere near as much as you claim you do. Simplified: thousands of moving parts versus dozens/hundreds of moving parts. EVs are FAR less complex than ICE vehicles. Guns are also scary things to those who don't understand how they work. Same concept.
You would rather own a McClaren 650 out of warranty than a Tesla Model S 100D? Now I know you're just being anti-EV because those things are in the shop more than they're on the road and the repair bills are ALWAYS in the tens of thousands of dollars. Engine rebuilds are the norm and good luck keeping a transmission under it. If that's your honest stance then you really know nothing about Tesla or it's reliability and maintenance or you're just trying to be argumentative.
I spend a lot of time on Ebay. The Parts needs to be more readily avaialble.
You keep talking about gas station time.
Opportunity cost plus the cost of gas.
Gas station time vs charging time.
I will take gas time.
No charging while parking at most of parking lot yet.
I watched a lot of videos of Tesla rebuilds and diy.
I haven't had opportunity to work on major Tesla stuff from 2 guys who own s out of warranty, but we all know it would be b1txh to work on.
I am not trolling because my preference is 650s over 100d out of warranty.
(Like some prefers diesel broDozer over ev)
Like I said multiple times now.... you can literally buy any part the car is made up of on the used market. Anything. The false narrative is that Tesla won't sell you parts and you can't get them anywhere so if something breaks you're screwed. That's simply not how it works.
That's IF you buy new and IF you buy from a dealer and IF you pay their absurd rate for the maintenance. It's a sales tactic. It's not an unlimited manufacturer's powertrain warranty which is what we're talking about here. That also stays with the original purchaser of the vehicle.
All new Teslas came with an 8 year unlimited mile powertrain warranty that follows the car to every owner for free. That's easily the most comprehensive warranty in the biz from ANY automobile manufacturer. Don't believe me? Here's a list: Click me (https://www.motor1.com/features/253277/comparing-new-vehicle-warranties/). You'll see that Tesla is the ONLY one on that list that's unlimited powertrain warranty and there's a reason for that. The other best options are only 100k miles with most coming in at the 50-60k range. ICE vehicles will have more problems because they're not as reliable so if manufacturers tried to warranty them with unlimited miles for 8 years for whoever owned the car they'd be bankrupt after about 6 years. That alone should be enough proof of how much more reliable EVs are long term. Hell, the Volt was the most reliable car GM ever made.
Just saying, "on the used market", so you're gambling with used parts? Not that I havent done that before, or new parts aren't a gamble either, but new vs used.
Also, as I said, yes they're not manufacturer warranties, but no you Dont have to go to the dealership to pay their obsurd rates; you just have to go to certified repairshop.
But so it's not a manufacturer lifetime warranty, it's still a dealership lifetime powertrain warranty. What's wrong with an aftermarket warranty? I had an aftermarket warranty on my previous car, wasnt a lifetime warranty, but no issues.
I spend a lot of time on Ebay. The Parts needs to be more readily avaialble.
You keep talking about gas station time.
Opportunity cost plus the cost of gas.
Gas station time vs charging time.
I will take gas time.
No charging while parking at most of parking lot yet.
I watched a lot of videos of Tesla rebuilds and diy.
I haven't had opportunity to work on major Tesla stuff from 2 guys who own s out of warranty, but we all know it would be b1txh to work on.
I am not trolling because my preference is 650s over 100d out of warranty.
(Like some prefers diesel broDozer over ev)
There's more than just eBay.
Charge time? What charge time? 99% of the time I get home, I plug it in and I'm done. Unplug it when I'm ready to leave. This "charge time" so many EV haters hang their hat on is on random road trips which comprises less than 1% of the average owners usage. I haven't been to a gas station in about 6 months and I can't tell you how liberating that is... especially in the winter time in Colorado.
You "know" it would be a bitch to work on and you haven't even worked on them. Okay. Well, from someone has had his Model S's apart numerous times now for mods and fixes it's not hard. Certainly not any harder than any other car and compared to most it's quite a bit less difficult to work on.
If you simply would rather have a 650 than a 100D then that's your opinion and it's based on emotion which I can't argue. To say that you'd rather have it out of warranty insinuates that it will somehow cost less or be more reliable which simply isn't the case. You can have your 650 but my Tesla will be quieter, faster (not top speed but how often will you go 200+ mph?), safer, more economical, smarter, more roomy and more reliable by a large margin.
Just saying, "on the used market", so you're gambling with used parts? Not that I havent done that before, or new parts aren't a gamble either, but new vs used.
Also, as I said, yes they're not manufacturer warranties, but no you Dont have to go to the dealership to pay their obsurd rates; you just have to go to certified repairshop.
But so it's not a manufacturer lifetime warranty, it's still a dealership lifetime powertrain warranty. What's wrong with an aftermarket warranty? I had an aftermarket warranty on my previous car, wasnt a lifetime warranty, but no issues.
Not always used but most are, yes. Lots of new take-offs that are technically new and cost a fraction of what the part would cost new. You also pay a relative amount based on the part and it's estimated life expectancy so in the end it makes it worth the risk unless you overpay. But, again, I can't tell you the last time I walked into a dealership to buy a brand new OEM part at retail price to install on my vehicle. It's almost always used or aftermarket.
Regardless of if you're taking it to a dealership or a certified repair shop you're paying for labor and I don't pay for labor. I do my own work. I don't pay someone else to do things I can do for myself. So paying for labor is hardly free. There are a LOT of caveats to 3rd party warranties and as such I place zero value in them.
As to your question about 3rd party warranties... that's an entirely separate conversation I'm getting into on this thread. You're comparing apples to aardvarks though for purposes of this conversation.
All I really have left to say is... When does the discussion about PC vs Apple start?
ChickNorris
02-28-2019, 15:24
I found peanut butter in the chocolate.
What is a warranty? Who spends more than $10k buying a vehicle? Does it start? Does it run? Will it get me where I'm going with the stuff I want to take? How much will a new set of tires run me?
[Flower]
All I really have left to say is... When does the discussion about PC vs Apple start?
When Chevy vs Ford ends. :)
And I will be talking about Dodge trucks between the argument.
Great-Kazoo
02-28-2019, 16:13
I found peanut butter in the chocolate.
Comrade. You got chocolate in my peanut butter
Tesla is making announcements as I type this. So far the big news is that the Model 3 for $35k is now a reality earlier than expected. Range is 220 miles, 0-60 in mid 5's and delivery in under a month from when you order. There's been some other updates and more forthcoming (hopefully details on v3.0 Supercharging) info but I thought I'd update since the $35k Tesla has been brought up here and there during EV conversations. I debated started a new thread but it's a gun forum so I'll keep the EV topic discussion to this thread for now to avoid fragmentation.
BushMasterBoy
02-28-2019, 17:33
I saw that.
Roush Performance announced, for the 2019 Ford Raptor, a "performance pac" that includes an ECU to boost hp and torque.
Also, consumer reports released their most and least reliable cars:
https://jalopnik.com/here-are-the-most-and-least-reliable-cars-according-to-1832866813/amp
If Tesla would bring back their lotus variant or other sports car like model, I would consider it, but all the current ones look like plastic toy junk.
The good looking EVs are way out of my price range.
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't sporty enough for you?
My ideal EV right now would be a 10-year old electric Suzuki SX-4 AWD.
Tesla is making announcements as I type this. So far the big news is that the Model 3 for $35k is now a reality earlier than expected. Range is 220 miles, 0-60 in mid 5's and delivery in under a month from when you order. There's been some other updates and more forthcoming (hopefully details on v3.0 Supercharging) info but I thought I'd update since the $35k Tesla has been brought up here and there during EV conversations. I debated started a new thread but it's a gun forum so I'll keep the EV topic discussion to this thread for now to avoid fragmentation.
And then their stock tanked [ROFL1]
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-28/tesla-tumbles-musk-mystery-announcement-appears-disappoint
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't sporty enough for you?
My ideal EV right now would be a 10-year old electric Suzuki SX-4 AWD.
They all LOOK like cheap plastic toys now. Their lotus LOOKED like a real sports car.
And then their stock tanked [ROFL1]
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-28/tesla-tumbles-musk-mystery-announcement-appears-disappoint
Ten years from now you'll wish you had bought in at ~$300 per share. They just announced the car that will sell 500k units worldwide this year all while decreasing the cost to build of them a full 6%... well ahead of schedule.
Your "tanked stock" is speculative since at the close of trading it was up on the day. Again. The stock was under $100 five years ago but now somehow $310 is "tanking"?
They can make tomorrow's quarterly loan payment back in cash and if the stock goes crazy tomorrow and closes at $359+/share they can actually satisfy the loan payment entirely with stock which frees up the $700mil they have in cash to buy another factory in Europe. This would free up a massive bottleneck they're experiencing trying to get Model 3's to all of the people who have ordered them in Europe. Again, more demand than supply is a good problem to have in business and yet the EV haters keep trying to sell it like some sort of a negative.
"They'll never be able to build that car that can do all of those things" and then they built it. Then it was "They'll never ramp up production to meet all of the demand" and they did that ahead of schedule. Then it was "They'll never be able to make it for $35k" and today that day came. All ahead of schedule. Now it's their stock? What's next? I mean, when will you people who just hate to hate learn to take an "L" and move on with your life.
I know you saw a negative headline on some website (probably didn't even read the words contained therein) and got a anti-EV stuffy but there's a bigger picture that the shorts and anti-EV people aren't seeing.
DavieD55
02-28-2019, 19:51
https://bobramseyseminars.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/kool-aid-man.jpg
If Tesla would bring back their lotus variant or other sports car like model, I would consider it, but all the current ones look like plastic toy junk.
The good looking EVs are way out of my price range.
They all LOOK like cheap plastic toys now. Their lotus LOOKED like a real sports car.
This is your dream Tesla?
https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/800x450/format/jpg/quality/85/http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/11/00_jasonstesla_opt.jpg
Ooof.
...and this looks like a cheap plastic toy?
https://hips.hearstapps.com/roa.h-cdn.co/assets/16/34/1472053195-tesla-model-s-p100d.jpg
Or this?
https://ev.network/sites/default/files/styles/blog_large/public/field/image/tesla-model-s-0-60-228.jpg?itok=Rk-4SpIV
This one looks alright too:
https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tesla-roadster_100633978_l.jpg
This also doesn't suck:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ae149e3117b67f0681f58554cbe2f337.webp
https://bobramseyseminars.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/kool-aid-man.jpg
ROFL
https://media.giphy.com/media/CYU3D3bQnlLIk/giphy.gif
Great-Kazoo
02-28-2019, 20:04
For all the pros & cons of EV. How eco friendly can they be, when built with plastic bodies ?
Ten years from now you'll wish you had bought in at ~$300 per share.
Ten years from now, Tesla will be the Delorean of the 21st Century.
You've previously stated as "fact" that no-one comes close to Tesla in EV technology. The true fact is that all the major manufactures are heavily invested in it and once they start selling, Tesla will be quickly crushed - as they have been barely hanging on for years - propped up by subsidies and wealthy morons. First, Tesla could not deliver on orders (supply side lies) Now, they can't get enough interest and are dropping prices (Demand side lies). They're closing dealerships and selling online [ROFL1] Tesla has run itself into the ground as a ponzi cult and 10 years from now I will look back and giggle.
hurley842002
02-28-2019, 20:34
That Tesla roadster would be sweet!
This is your dream Tesla?
https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/800x450/format/jpg/quality/85/http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/11/00_jasonstesla_opt.jpg
Ooof.
...and this looks like a cheap plastic toy?
https://hips.hearstapps.com/roa.h-cdn.co/assets/16/34/1472053195-tesla-model-s-p100d.jpg
Or this?
https://ev.network/sites/default/files/styles/blog_large/public/field/image/tesla-model-s-0-60-228.jpg?itok=Rk-4SpIV
This one looks alright too:
https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tesla-roadster_100633978_l.jpg
This also doesn't suck:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ae149e3117b67f0681f58554cbe2f337.webp
No, the red one on this page:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wallpapershome.com/amp/cars-bikes/brand/tesla-roadster-sport-quickest-electric-cars-sport-cars-8781.html
2011 Roadster 2.5?
I think it's the grill vs sheet of plastic.
I'm not arguing the specs, just the look. Geesh, stop being so defensive.
Put those specs in a yugo for $5k, and I still wouldn't buy it because of how it looks.
$200k is even further out of reach on that last one. It looks better, but still has that lack of grill that just doesnt look right to me.
I've heard a few people complain about the lack of a grill. I wondered if it'd attract more buyers with a false grill like the crap they put on Mustangs. What do you think? I think even a grill that goes to just black plastic would be convincing enough.
It would be nice if the front end was at least finished...in some way. Makes the boring Model 3 look even worse.
https://images2.autotrader.com/borderscaler/408/306/2d363e/images/2018/5/4/480/118/43617533976.480118834.IM1.MAIN.544x408_A.1000x599. jpg
I think it won't look weird after a while, but it sure is a change to us now.
They just announced the car that will sell 500k units worldwide this year...
Isn't that the tweet that Musk is most recently in trouble for?
Isn't that the tweet that Musk is most recently in trouble for?
Indeed. Jer has also repeated the 7,000 vehicle per week number that was also walked back to 'by the end of the year'. I also read an assertion that the layoffs were assembly workers being replaced by further automation, yet Tesla stated that the layoffs were not assembly personnel.
...but somebody was on a roll.
Ten years from now, Tesla will be the Delorean of the 21st Century.
You've previously stated as "fact" that no-one comes close to Tesla in EV technology. The true fact is that all the major manufactures are heavily invested in it and once they start selling, Tesla will be quickly crushed - as they have been barely hanging on for years - propped up by subsidies and wealthy morons. First, Tesla could not deliver on orders (supply side lies) Now, they can't get enough interest and are dropping prices (Demand side lies). They're closing dealerships and selling online [ROFL1] Tesla has run itself into the ground as a ponzi cult and 10 years from now I will look back and giggle.
"Can't get enough interest"
ROFL
No, the red one on this page:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wallpapershome.com/amp/cars-bikes/brand/tesla-roadster-sport-quickest-electric-cars-sport-cars-8781.html
2011 Roadster 2.5?
I think it's the grill vs sheet of plastic.
I'm not arguing the specs, just the look. Geesh, stop being so defensive.
Put those specs in a yugo for $5k, and I still wouldn't buy it because of how it looks.
$200k is even further out of reach on that last one. It looks better, but still has that lack of grill that just doesnt look right to me.
I wasn't being defensive I just don't understand why someone would like the look of that first orange car better than the Model S pictures I posted. But, to each his own.
That orange one was the original Tesla Roadster from 2008.
The front is just a full bumper cover since they don't need airflow like an ICE vehicle does.
I've heard a few people complain about the lack of a grill. I wondered if it'd attract more buyers with a false grill like the crap they put on Mustangs. What do you think? I think even a grill that goes to just black plastic would be convincing enough.
The first generation of Model S had a fake black plastic nose cone. It's only purpose was to help with acceptance after focus groups said they preferred the fake grill. That's what ours looks like. The other is the newer generation called the "refresh" since the new front fascia was basically the only update. It's funny because non-EV people tend to prefer the gen 1 & EV people prefer the refresh version.
It would be nice if the front end was at least finished...in some way. Makes the boring Model 3 look even worse.
https://images2.autotrader.com/borderscaler/408/306/2d363e/images/2018/5/4/480/118/43617533976.480118834.IM1.MAIN.544x408_A.1000x599. jpg
Personally I'm not a fan of the appearance of the Model 3.
Isn't that the tweet that Musk is most recently in trouble for?
No. My statement was about the Tesla announcement that literally just happened tonight that you can officially order the $35k version of the Model 3 & have it in your driveway in 2-4 weeks.
Indeed. Jer has also repeated the 7,000 vehicle per week number that was also walked back to 'by the end of the year'. I also read an assertion that the layoffs were assembly workers being replaced by further automation, yet Tesla stated that the layoffs were not assembly personnel.
...but somebody was on a roll.
What are you talking about?
Aloha_Shooter
02-28-2019, 22:22
And the bad news...16,000,000 tons of lithium known reserves on the planet earth. Largest known deposit is in Chile. Only known resource in the US is Nevada brine well. My guess is domestic production is 2000 tons a year. At least I know my fuel injected vehicles can run on 25% ethanol.
Reference link below for source:
https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lithium/mcs-2018-lithi.pdf
So, EV's = 100% dependence on foreign energy with current technology. No thanks.
There's a reason Tesla bought one of the most advanced manufacturers of ultracapacitors. Li-Ion batteries are a "now" thing but they are looking past that. On the other hand, ultracapacitors will have their own complexities and issues.
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't sporty enough for you?
My ideal EV right now would be a 10-year old electric Suzuki SX-4 AWD.
https://ev.network/sites/default/files/styles/blog_large/public/field/image/tesla-model-s-0-60-228.jpg?itok=Rk-4SpIV
This one looks alright too:
https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tesla-roadster_100633978_l.jpg
This also doesn't suck:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ae149e3117b67f0681f58554cbe2f337.webp
0-60 is only a good measure of straight-line acceleration and using it as a metric of "goodness" presumes the car is also able to do other things that matter, like finishing the race without dropping into "limp home" mode. Fact of the matter is that Tesla can't finish the Nurburgring without falling into "limp home" mode. The battery flat-out overheats. Now, the fact of the matter is that I don't drive Nurburgring and very few people do. OTOH, it's a much closer analogy to real world driving than straight line quarter-mile segments.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/nurburgring
https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-around-the-nurburgrin-1600644908
https://insideevs.com/expected-tesla-model-s-fails-lap-nurburgring-full-power-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphw4km60m4
I know engineers who are also Porsche fans that flat-out believe EVs are the future, even for sports cars. I respect them and I agree. I also agree that that future EV may not be a Tesla and that EVs still have some significant hurdles to overcome to be practical solutions for everyday driving for a (diminishing but still significant) population of people.
There's a reason Tesla bought one of the most advanced manufacturers of ultracapacitors. Li-Ion batteries are a "now" thing but they are looking past that. On the other hand, ultracapacitors will have their own complexities and issues.
0-60 is only a good measure of straight-line acceleration and using it as a metric of "goodness" presumes the car is also able to do other things that matter, like finishing the race without dropping into "limp home" mode. Fact of the matter is that Tesla can't finish the Nurburgring without falling into "limp home" mode. The battery flat-out overheats. Now, the fact of the matter is that I don't drive Nurburgring and very few people do. OTOH, it's a much closer analogy to real world driving than straight line quarter-mile segments.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/nurburgring
https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-around-the-nurburgrin-1600644908
https://insideevs.com/expected-tesla-model-s-fails-lap-nurburgring-full-power-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphw4km60m4
I know engineers who are also Porsche fans that flat-out believe EVs are the future, even for sports cars. I respect them and I agree. I also agree that that future EV may not be a Tesla and that EVs still have some significant hurdles to overcome to be practical solutions for everyday driving for a (diminishing but still significant) population of people.
Good post & I agree on all counts.
I never said Tesla was the end all be all for every human being alive but it's damn good for 2019 & will suit a majority of the population just fine.
I spend so much of my time refuting false information that it makes me look like Tesla can do no wrong in my eyes which isn't the case.
I've said numerous times now that competition needs to hurry & step to the plate because if Tesla gets too far ahead they won't be able to compete & then all of us consumers are screwed.
It is insanely stupid for manufacturers to try and have proprietary charging systems.
No. My statement was about the Tesla announcement that literally just happened tonight that you can officially order the $35k version of the Model 3 & have it in your driveway in 2-4 weeks.
What are you talking about?
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tweet-tesla-contempt-court-sec/
No. My statement was about the Tesla announcement that literally just happened tonight that you can officially order the $35k version of the Model 3 & have it in your driveway in 2-4 weeks.
I read June.
I read June.
So sooner than a Form 4 or a 1919 mount?
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