View Full Version : Chase and shootout involving hijacked UPS truck in Florida lead to four deaths
Chase and shootout involving hijacked UPS truck in Florida lead to four deaths (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/chase-and-shootout-involving-hijacked-ups-truck-in-florida-lead-to-four-deaths/ar-BBXPoSS)
Heard about this on the morning news. They weren't sure if the UPS driver was shot by the perp or police. Based on the video at the linked article, looks like the UPS driver was killed in the hail of gunfire by law enforcement. A sad situation all the way around.
Does your article says who the fourth person killed was?
Does your article says who the fourth person killed was?
Two people suspected to have been the robbers, the UPS driver and an uninvolved nearby motorist were killed 20 miles away after the nationally televised freeway pursuit, said George Piro, special agent in charge of the FBI's Miami field office.
Sounds like the fourth person was killed during the shootout as well maybe?
Yep. Just caught up in traffic. It's pretty crazy to see video of the police engaging the UPS truck while using occupied vehicles for cover. As the drivers try to get out of the way, the officers just move with the vehicles. The whole thing looks like a crossfire nightmare.
JohnnyEgo
12-06-2019, 10:03
There is a lengthy post about this on 1911forums by a guy who lived just down the street from this incident. Includes a link to a rather graphic video that showed the shoot-out all the way through to the unfortunate conclusion.
On the one hand, the idea that 19 officers would fire 200+ rounds under stress and return fire does not strike me as outside of the rhelm of reason. On the other hand, engaging in a high volume shoot-out in a heavily populated area and using occupied civilian vehicles as shields does not seem like a particularly good decision.
Boward County seems to be making the wrong kind of name for itself.
There is a lengthy post about this on 1911forums by a guy who lived just down the street from this incident. Includes a link to a rather graphic video that showed the shoot-out all the way through to the unfortunate conclusion.
On the one hand, the idea that 19 officers would fire 200+ rounds under stress and return fire does not strike me as outside of the rhelm of reason. On the other hand, engaging in a high volume shoot-out in a heavily populated area and using occupied civilian vehicles as shields does not seem like a particularly good decision.
Same conclusion video in my link above from the same news helicopter. You can see the UPS driver raising his arm as he's rolling out of the truck with sparks coming from the step area right next to him. It might even be a shot hitting him in the back below the shoulders as he's rolling out.
I'll include the video from the 1911Forum here as it doesn't have as much follow-up video edited into it.
http://youtu.be/iOmjzjEs5DM
Bailey Guns
12-06-2019, 11:26
That was just bad all the way around. Frankly, I'm surprised more people in cars weren't shot. I feel badly for the UPS guy.
Little Dutch
12-06-2019, 11:50
That was a bad place to engage in a shootout.
Thanks for posting the video.
Video is way beyond tragic and horrifying. Beyond the driver, rounds impacting some of the adjacent cars. What's done is done, so there's no way to know if outcomes would've been different and no way to predict them in the moment. Still, I wonder if there would've been less loss of life if LEO would've kept distance on this, but in the moment, there's no way to know if they will kill a hostage either. If possible, it would've been nice to delay a mass shootout even if they are extreme risk (while innocents are in every direction) - of which two died.
[sarc on] If only everyone was all driving cybertrucks. [/sarc off]
Unfortunately, the depths of "Florida Stupid" aren't just limited to non-LEOs. I've dealt with more than my share of round-headed inbreeders in the last 13 years, as well as some of the most impulsive, aggressive and ignorant officers/deputies that I've ever met. It might be all of the tourist B.S. that makes them that way.
BushMasterBoy
12-06-2019, 13:06
6 million humans all living in a 75 mile radius. Largest industry in the state is controlled substances imported from third world countries.
Add in hurricanes, Zika virus,red tide etc. and you have the perfect cesspool.
Veteran of South Florida 1985-88
JohnnyEgo
12-06-2019, 15:39
My wife and I were talking about Florida craziness this morning. She was born and raised there for 38 years, my son was born there as well, and I lived there for a good chunk of my life. It is amazing what just becomes normal. We lived in a quiet residential neighborhood where nonetheless, we woke up one morning to find a Ford Explorer embedded in the side of our neighbor's house, upside down and about five feet in the air. I lived in Jacksonville, and worked at a gun store that catered to law enforcement, and even my LEO friends would complain about the basic incompetence and corruption of the police force. Not every cop, nor perhaps even most, but you never knew what you were going to get behind the flashing lights, and people across all spectra; political, economic, and even other LEOs, etc... just accepted this as basic reality.
Those cops seem to have gotten their training from 80s action movies and the Spetznaz. Just a buffet of stupid decision making that led to them killing multiple innocents.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191207/0b4161e541c226b2d851e6518e58b1ef.jpg
Bailey Guns
12-06-2019, 23:29
Those cops seem to have gotten their training from 80s action movies and the Spetznaz. Just a buffet of stupid decision making that led to them killing multiple innocents.
You're the master of one dimensional thinking.
Florida offshore - relatively good.
Florida on-land - everything negative you may have heard. -and more.
BushMasterBoy
12-07-2019, 09:37
I was featured on a trailer of a Miami Vice episode. My fifteen seconds of fame. Strange thing is I can't find a copy of it anywhere. Florida sucks!
Wow. What a total cluster....really unfortunate situation. Amazing more people weren't injured/killed.
It looks like every LEO vehicle within a three-state radius was there.
Morbid curiosity, I wonder how many rounds were fired.
Spokeperson said the number of shots fired by PD could be over 200.
Seems like a lot of LEO open fire immediately when gunfire is perceived... e.g. either reacting to a suspect firing, or automatically presuming someone else (another officer) is legally justified to shoot, so they are too.
I wish they trained each officer to restrain themselves regardless of the circumstance and only open fire when a) all the conditions are personally satisfied and b) they are aware of their target and what is behind their target. Even if they hear gunshots. (Simulator training would be nice).
This sort of situation seems to result as some derivative of the Battle of Los Angeles, which they called "Jittery Nerves" back then, but I'd call it mass participation myself... e.g. 1) having heightened senses/overly alert, 2) wanting to be a "part of the action", and 3) presuming that other people are justified in their action, so you can blindly participate or you'll miss out. It's the latter part that can be trained away imho.
JohnnyEgo
12-07-2019, 14:31
I tend to give them a little more credit when it comes purely to round count. As in 'oh shit, someone's shooting at me and my friends, I'd better unload'. A situation most LEO have little to no prior experience with. Adrenaline kicks in, focus narrows, keep shooting until the threat stops. As I said earlier, 200 rounds averages about 10 rounds per shooter, into a vehicle from which incoming fire is being taken, from multiple assailants. You can argue how many officers should of shot in the first place, but they see their brethren in danger, and human nature is what it is. I bet those 10 or so shots seemed to go very quickly from the officer's perspective.
Choosing to engage while using moving civilian-occupied vehicles for cover, thus drawing fire towards them, is the part that really gives me pause for concern over the round count.
Well yes, different perspective, but same issue. It results in a problem where if one officer either accidentally or prematurely fires, then the group as a whole is somewhat likely to summarily execute whatever the target is and anything near the target, even more so if any other officer also fires. It's not just "to act on their behalf", but it is coupled with a presumption that the other guys are acting correctly; so you are too - without personally having any cause to engage.
I don't think any officer in that specific situation saw "their brethren in danger" when they all started firing. While there is arguable justification for application of potentially lethal force in the run up to the shootout, evidence hasn't been presented yet as to why the officers started firing. Was it merely because someone on the port side had a gun? Did they point a gun at an officer? Or did one officer open fire prematurely triggering the cascade? At any rate, one can't justify that as acting on behalf of other officers, as ones on the starboard were even blasting left and right when hands were demonstrated as the driver tried to exit. The officers there, at best, were simply presuming other officers had proper justification and so they were going to "help out". Starboard reflected no immediate threat to an officers life in the helicopter video, which is pretty comprehensive - and I am presuming that, to my understanding, suspects had fired (some) rounds while driving. That still by itself doesn't authorize lethal force (from a moral perspective) once the vehicle has come to a stop and the officers have an overwhelming force majority + body armor + a hostage is present.
Now, from a legal perspective, since it is subjective "fear" standard on behalf of the individual, the officers will be cleared of any wrongdoing and placed back on duty. However, we all know what is "legal" is not synonymous with what is "moral", as it has often times been legally acceptable to enact severe moral wrongs.
BushMasterBoy
12-07-2019, 21:10
The only solution I can see to these situations is to train using virtual reality systems. You can program an unlimited amount of scenarios for your area.
The link below will not show the actual system in operation for obvious reasons. Just use your imagination.
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/virtual-training-will-save-real-army-lives-close-combat-task-force/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfHmKXUu010
The only solution I can see to these situations is to train using virtual reality systems. You can program an unlimited amount of scenarios for your area.
The link below will not show the actual system in operation for obvious reasons. Just use your imagination.
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/virtual-training-will-save-real-army-lives-close-combat-task-force/
I think VR has a lot of potential for LEO training. It would take quite a bit of instinctual conditioning to break the "hear bang->open fire" reaction, and that's a possible way to help.
Aloha_Shooter
12-08-2019, 12:27
Looked like a bad situation to me but I don't know what the armchair police captains think the police should have done once the kidnappers started shooting. The sooner they end the incident, the fewer by-standers are endangered. They'd be getting criticism for doing nothing if they just stood back and while the kidnappers fired. The flashes at the truck itself looked to me like muzzle flashes, not sparks from incoming rounds.
As far as using the vehicles for cover, yes, they are occupied but are you saying the police should just walk up between the vehicles and offer themselves as targets? It looked to me like they were using the engines as cover (better protection anyway), not the passenger cabins.
Cops are expected to protect people from danger, not to knowingly put them at risk. They used the people they are charged to keep safe and instead used them as human shields.
The police had helicopters following, they should have held back and waited for a less populated area than a busy highway at rush hour. Used some fucking tactics. Not surround the hijacked vehicle and then mag dump into it from 4 different directions.
The only positive outcome of what happened was all the fresh memes the jaded internet community has made out of this.
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https://youtu.be/iOmjzjEs5DM (reposting video)
Reviewed it and noticed more details.
1:43 looks like someone reached out the starboard and blindly shot a single pistol round.
1:45 instead of watching the stairs/driver, look at the side of the UPS truck. You can see a crazy # of shots there on the paint as they occur. Reflective of either the overall accuracy or blindly firing through the truck from an obtuse angle, not sure which.
Shots STILL impacting around the driver as the video ends even after the driver is visibly dead. (1:56+)
That is an excessive stretch of any legal justification to still be firing at that point.
I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being 200. There's easily 20 on one area of the truck there that is nowhere near being a "target". And while a suspect did fire at police, that doesn't mean the innocent lives lost wouldn't have been preventable - as others pointed out. It's unlikely the suspects would have been blindly firing anything if they weren't being hotly pursued.
If police backed off, followed via air, and GASP, the suspects fell through the cracks, does it actually matter? How many times do they successfully "get away" anyway even if police are never there. Thieves are generally DMF'ers, and they could've solved the case in short order when they went to pawn the jewelry and properly served high-risk warrants in a safer situation, probably all in under a week.
ETA:
(I'll add the officer on foot about 40' away from the rear right corner immediately was returning fire at the suspect as the suspect shot a single round)
Hard to say if flashes in the UPS truck are from the suspects, but can't be sure. The 1:49 one looks probable. But otherwise, the metal there is also reflecting some police sirens, it's hard to say if it is sparks or it could even be reflecting LEO muzzle flashes.
https://i.imgur.com/ttE8m1W.jpg
LEOroy Jenkinnnnnssssssss
A Florida man 'sitting in his car' was killed in UPS hijacking shootout. His family is calling for an investigation (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a-florida-man-sitting-in-his-car-was-killed-in-ups-hijacking-shootout-his-family-is-calling-for-an-investigation/ar-BBY6vnb)
The family of a bystander who was killed in a Florida shootout between police and robbery suspects is calling for an investigation.
Richard Cutshaw was fatally shot following the pursuit of a hijacked UPS truck on Dec. 5, but his family still does not know whose bullets killed him, an attorney said Tuesday.
Matt Morgan, one of the attorneys representing the Cutshaws, said he is working with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to determine if police followed proper procedures. The Cutshaw family wants to find out how the pursuit escalated into violence that endangered the public, Morgan said at a press conference Tuesday.
a police car parked on the side of a road: An FBI official investigates the scene of a shooting, Thursday, Dec. 5, 2019, in Miramar, Fla. Four people, including a UPS driver, were killed Thursday after robbers stole the driver’s truck and led police on a chase that ended in gunfire at a busy Florida intersection during rush hour, the FBI said.
? Brynn Anderson, AP An FBI official investigates the scene of a shooting, Thursday, Dec. 5, 2019, in Miramar, Fla. Four people, including a UPS driver, were killed Thursday after robbers stole the driver’s truck and led police on a chase that ended in gunfire at a busy Florida intersection during rush hour, the FBI said.
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“What happened to Richard is a tragedy that no other family should have to bear," the Cutshaw family said in a written statement. "He was sitting in his car on his way from a job he loved, when the intersection around him erupted into a warzone. We cannot make sense of what happened to him; it’s unfathomable."
Hijacked UPS truck: Video shows how shootout unfolded
The incident began with police responding to a robbery at a jewelry store shortly after 4 p.m., police said. Two suspects fired at police, fled and hijacked a UPS truck, taking the driver as a hostage. When the suspects got stuck in rush-hour traffic, they fired at officers approaching the truck, police said.
Cutshaw, 70, ended up stuck in the crossfire. About 20 officers from four different agencies discharged their weapons, Morgan said Tuesday, firing some 200 bullets.
Adrian Mendiondo, another attorney representing the family, said Cutshaw's death was not inevitable. He questioned whether police could have ended the pursuit differently to prevent the killing of both Cutshaw and Frank Ordonez, 27, the UPS employee.
“There is not a well-written pursuit policy in this country that doesn’t have termination requirements and recommendations for when what’s happening is causing more danger to the public than it’s preventing," Mendiondo said. "Because, at the end of the day, when police begin a pursuit such as this, especially in a crowded area, especially with civilians nearby, their focus is not just catching the perpetrator but, more importantly, not injuring third parties.”
Mendiondo said he is in contact with the lawyer representing Ordonez. UPS drivers nationwide held a moment of silence last week.
The memorial service for Cutshaw is scheduled for Wednesday, Mendiondo said. He worked as a field representative for the Government Supervisors Association of Florida.
This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: A Florida man 'sitting in his car' was killed in UPS hijacking shootout. His family is calling for an investigation
Bailey Guns
12-18-2019, 11:29
The Cutshaw family wants to find out how the pursuit escalated into violence that endangered the public, Morgan said at a press conference Tuesday.
Really? Read a fucking newspaper. How hard is that?
The incident began with police responding to a robbery at a jewelry store shortly after 4 p.m., police said. Two suspects fired at police, fled and hijacked a UPS truck, taking the driver as a hostage. When the suspects got stuck in rush-hour traffic, they fired at officers approaching the truck, police said.
It "escalated into violence that endangered the public" when two shitbags decided to commit armed robbery and kidnapping.
I swear. I hate stupid people. Especially when they talk.
SOP in situations like this is for the government to just pay a settlement and call it a day.
Maybe a policy to hold back until the perps clear the busy and crowded intersection and find another opportunity with reduced risk to innocents? I concede that it's difficult to predict the future.
Law enforcement using occupied vehicles for cover and possibly attracting fire on those vehicles seems like a bad practice.
Does the hostage change the situation though?
Does the hostage change the situation though?
Jeopardize the lives of many for the good of one?
Isn?t that Kim Jong-Un?s policy?
I'm just asking if that changes the situation at all. Would it if the hostage were a minor?
I'm just asking if that changes the situation at all. Would it if the hostage were a minor?
Gotta' save the chirrens.
"If it only saves 1 life..."
Bailey Guns
12-18-2019, 16:46
I can't imagine a worse scenario, frankly, aside from something with a WMD of sorts. Speaking just in terms of "ordinary" violent crime this is about as bad as it gets regarding risk to hostage and innocents.
Bailey Guns
12-18-2019, 16:48
Does the hostage change the situation though?
Yeah, I think it does. Unfortunately, when the bad guys start shooting, that changes things, too. You have the bad guys controlling everything. All the cops can do is react. And sometimes it goes very badly.
Pretty sure the SOP with a hostage isn't to unload every available magazine in the direction of suspects if they fire a shot upon officers.
Pretty sure it's to keep distance, negotiate, use SWT/CRT, and precision if termination of a perp is required.
But it's not like I'm a Florida officer. Maybe they practice full auto magazine dumps there at classic "no shoot" hostage targets and consider it a win if they have less than ten hits.
One question I have, is at the time, was everyone aware the driver was a hostage? It is possible to believe it's a hijacked truck (no driver)
With respect to the hostage, I was referring to the pursuit of the vehicle in general. The shooting doesn't seem like the best option.
Good question what actual SOP is for that. I'm sure it's a bit different if it's e.g. a kidnapping-by-stranger call, but it might even be a seat of the pants thing. Has to be exceedingly rare to have kidnapping pursuits, esp if you don't count domestic bs.
Pretty sure the SOP with a hostage isn't to unload every available magazine in the direction of suspects if they fire a shot upon officers.
Looking at the locations of officers, I'm surprised they didn't shoot each other, especially the 5 in the lower left/center of the photo.
I think the lesson to any Florida UPS driver that's taken hostage in the future is to just roll out the door while the truck is in motion. The odds of survival may be better.
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