View Full Version : Kabul madhouse
Sounds like things are going from bad to worse in Kabul. The word is that the Taliban wants a peaceful transfer of power. I don't see that happening real soon if at all.
This was bound to happen when the US pulled out. Too bad for the average Afghan citizen that ends up trapped there. I wish them the best.
Yeah, it's going to be a crapstorm after we back out of that place. Any Afghan citizen that is even suspected to have helped U.S. forces will be executed.
BPTactical
08-15-2021, 12:01
Just like the fall of Saigon
It’s an insult to anybody who served there.
BushMasterBoy
08-15-2021, 13:10
Probably a good idea to pull out. Space Force is going to need all the help it can get.
Jumpstart
08-15-2021, 14:58
Right on cue. We only have 3 years and 4 more months of "Building Back Better".
.455_Hunter
08-15-2021, 16:06
As an individual who was on active duty on 9/11, have supported the mission in and out of uniform for 20 years, had friends or co-workers wounded or killed in theater, I really can't post what I want to say without getting on an enhanced list.
wctriumph
08-15-2021, 18:01
The Afghan military and police have surrendered unconditionally and have handed over all of the military equipment and arms that we left there so they could defend themselves and the people.
So what.
No more wasting our treasure and sacrificing our soldiers for a worthless dessert. Only beneficiaries of continuing the occupation are military contractors and suppliers.
Bailey Guns
08-15-2021, 19:00
How come every single person on the planet knew this would happen when we left except the people that are supposed to know this would happen if we left? What a fucking waste this whole thing was. 19 years, trillions of dollars and too many dead and wounded Americans all for nothing.
besides all the topics discussed,
there goes the world supplies of iron, copper, cobalt, gold,chromium.
They are saying it could take days to get people out of there and the Taliban are willing to wait and not threaten departures of diplomats and others. Smart on their part.
BPTactical
08-15-2021, 19:18
A-Stan needs a healthy dose of canned sunshine.
Bailey Guns
08-15-2021, 19:25
A-Stan needs a healthy dose of canned sunshine.
Toss up between which place needs it more... Afghanistan or DC.
Bailey Guns
08-15-2021, 19:27
***Frustration speaking. Obviously I don't want DC to be nuked. Regardless of how well it might cleanse the place of worthless politicians.
hollohas
08-15-2021, 19:47
We need to get our people out and bomb ALL equipment we left before they start moving it. Destroy it all.
How come every single person on the planet knew this would happen when we left except the people that are supposed to know this would happen if we left? What a fucking waste this whole thing was. 19 years, trillions of dollars and too many dead and wounded Americans all for nothing.
How many more trillions and lives would be spent by staying there? And for what purpose? What do we gain by staying there
You got to know hen to cut your losses. Unfortunately we should have done that many years ago after killing bin laden.
At least take many helpers and translator and their family.
How many more trillions and lives would be spent by staying there? And for what purpose? What do we gain by staying there
You got to know hen to cut your losses. Unfortunately we should have done that many years ago after killing bin laden.
We still have a base in Germany and in Japan since WWII. Those countries continue to flourish now, who is to say that maintaining 2500 and a base in Afghanistan could not be the same? Would it have taken 40 years like it did for the Berlin wall to fall? Maybe, maybe longer but now we will never know.
There are many thousands that have suffered during this war and they will always remember the atrocities of war. Every single soul there will remember being abandoned and the horror that will follow. I feel like everything I fought for is now for nothing, and I cant imagine what the average person trapped in that country will feel for decades to come.
Serious question, was the Taliban (or any derivatives) ever a threat to anyone before the West got involved in that area? Did they even exist at a significant scale?
I can't speak for Taliban only but many other tribes did not like soviet.
I am sure we can find many links when Soviet occupy the Afrighanistan, or we can just watch some clips of Rambo III.
We use to say Dumb commie Soviets are so weak that they could not take care of Afrighanistan for 10 years.
:)
https://youtu.be/VqWjJdXKIXA
https://youtu.be/2vTNYAfzUNA
The citizens of the entire first world of nations have been impacted by this in one way or another. The scars of those that served will never heal.
Fire ants keep coming to mind, try as we might with all the resources and technology there is no way to combat something so ingrained into a region.
BushMasterBoy
08-15-2021, 20:50
It was thought that Osama was hiding in Afghanistan. Tora Bora to be exact. Supposedly Osama was found by the laundry hanging out. DC is so screwed up, it takes them years to correct. Sometimes decades. Even the JCS get it wrong. I thought we were in Afghanistan for lithium deposits. Maybe it just became too unmanageable and not worth it.
Some Marine general many years ago stated we fight a lot of wars for Wall Street, that it was a racket.
Reminds me of the story, NASA spends millions of dollars for a pen that will write in space. The Russians just use a pencil.
Bushmaster I see the purpose and message of your analogy but it is not accurate
the reason that nasa did not use pencils is because graphite is an electrical conductor and after a fire on apollo 11 the owner of fisher pens wanted to do what he could to help the program and invested his own money,
over a million dollars reportedly, to find a solution for pens writing in space without the risk of fire
BPTactical
08-15-2021, 21:19
When we went into Afghanistan I told my sons to pay attention.
It would be their generations Vietnam.
Sadly I was not wrong.
An empty war based on lies
Enriching the pockets of a few
Breaking the bodies and hearts of many
Leaving only a void
Afghanistan, where empires die.
To those that served there my heart is out to you.
Thank you
battlemidget
08-15-2021, 21:27
If we ever send privates into space, we'll find out what happens when you pop off the end of the space pen in zero g.
Bailey Guns
08-15-2021, 21:29
How many more trillions and lives would be spent by staying there? And for what purpose? What do we gain by staying there
You got to know hen to cut your losses. Unfortunately we should have done that many years ago after killing bin laden.
My point wasn't that we should've stayed. However, an argument could be made for that. My point was, we knew exactly what was going to happen because we saw it in Viet Nam and, to a lesser degree, several other places over the years since Viet Nam. We proven over and over we don't have the political stomach for fighting a war. Politicians want the benefits of using the military and our wealth to win a war without having to do what it takes to win a war. And that's not possible. As soon as we went there everyone knew it was going to be a cluster fuck when we left...except the politicians that kept lying about it. We would likely be far better off, and just as safe, if we hadn't gone. By the time we got UBL no one really gave a shit about UBL any longer. And now we've just fucked it up royally for everyone who's left over there and can't leave.
BushMasterBoy
08-15-2021, 21:44
The sheep grow fearing the wolf, in the end, they are slaughtered by the shepherd.
.455_Hunter
08-15-2021, 21:57
Folks can legitimately argue about the validity of 20 years of mission operations, but recent history indicated a reasonable stability point, with ~10,000 US troops sequestered in a few secure locations. They were able to strike hot spots as needed, and were succeeding in keeping the lid on things without excessive casualties. All that has now been lost due a run away mentality.
We still have a base in Germany and in Japan since WWII. Those countries continue to flourish now, who is to say that maintaining 2500 and a base in Afghanistan could not be the same? Would it have taken 40 years like it did for the Berlin wall to fall? Maybe, maybe longer but now we will never know.
There are many thousands that have suffered during this war and they will always remember the atrocities of war. Every single soul there will remember being abandoned and the horror that will follow. I feel like everything I fought for is now for nothing, and I cant imagine what the average person trapped in that country will feel for decades to come.
And again what do we gain?
Germany was occupied to hold back a legitimate threat in the soviet union.
And without sounding racist, America was founded and built by european immigrants so we had an interest in rebuilding our old country. Europe is equal in values, civilization and religion. Afghanistan... not so much. There is no historic or emotional tie to them.
Geologist and Engineers must have found out their mineral reserves would have much higher mining cost.
jk
Well, in 2 years or less Chinese mining operations will be underway for the vast mineral deposits there, worth an estimates $2-3 trillion. They'll be using local labor, including children, at near slave wages. If not just outright rented slaves from the Taliban gov. Other reasons why we were sticking around is the problem that Pakistan has nukes, Taliban and AQ in their gov and a hatred of the US and our allies, especially India. Poppy fields will be kicked into high gear to produce even more heroin for global black markets. Not to mention it isn't a bad spot for listening posts to pick up comms and intel between Russia and China.
I expect the US to repeatedly be attacked in the name of Allah.
It is the way of Islam. It has been that way since the beginning of history. We refuse to learn from history and waste blood and treasure trying to "reimagine" our way around reality.
Aloha_Shooter
08-16-2021, 07:39
Folks can legitimately argue about the validity of 20 years of mission operations, but recent history indicated a reasonable stability point, with ~10,000 US troops sequestered in a few secure locations. They were able to strike hot spots as needed, and were succeeding in keeping the lid on things without excessive casualties. All that has now been lost due a run away mentality.
This. The purpose of staying was to give the Afghans time to build stability. The Democrats have tried to make every battle, every war, into Viet Nam because their opposition in Viet Nam won them political power. South Korea has become an economic powerhouse because we stayed and gave them time to build a stable democracy. The North Vietnamese were on the verge of losing completely when we cut our losses and left South Viet Nam. How much had you heard about the Taliban during the Trump administration (and he wanted to leave too -- he just wanted to do it in a way that didn't energize the Taliban)?
The Bush administration thought of the GWOT as World War II; it wasn't but I think Bush genuinely thought of it in those terms -- one of the reasons he has made a point to quietly support combat veterans after he left office. He did take political advantage of the situation but I think he sincerely believed 9/11 was a Pearl Harbor moment and sincerely wanted to go after the forces that sponsored and executed it like the Allies went after the Axis. In both Viet Nam and Afghanistan, we should have thought very carefully before getting involved and escalating our presence but in both cases, the military and political endeavors were undermined by the Left and tools of Communism who want nothing more than to bring America down taking advantage of middle America's displeasure at seeing the casualties grow.
BPTactical
08-16-2021, 08:35
Everybody relax, I am sure the TB is lining up Bring your Daughter the Work Day, Pride Month, Christmas parades and Memorial Day celebrations as we speak.
Martinjmpr
08-16-2021, 09:00
I posted this on the Veterans' blog I comment on a lot, This Ain't Hell, but it seems appropriate here:
Another Afghan vet here (OEF II, 2003.)
I honestly don't feel as bad about this as many of you appear to. OEF was never about "saving" Afghanistan in the way that the Vietnam war was about "saving South Vietnam.
As I've said before, it seems to me like we achieved everything that military power could achieve by 2004 or so. The Taliban was smashed in the big cities, infrastructure being rebuilt, the terrorists in their camps were pretty much gone and the ones who were left spent more time moving from place to place and worrying about whether they would get a hellfire missile up their ass from a passing drone than they did planning terror attacks.
That's the point at which we should have told the Afghanis "OK, it's your country now" and pulled most of our combat troops out.
Unfortunately, that old bugaboo, "Mission creep" took over and pretty soon our mission was to "build a stable nation" - something that Afghanistan hasn't been for decades.
It's also something that guns and bombs can't really do.
When are military planners going to realize that the whole world is not Western Europe and "The Marshall Plan" will not work on 3rd world tribal bands? The Marshall Plan worked in Europe because Europe was a stable, functioning civilized society BEFORE WWII and the Europeans WANTED a stable and civilized society.
Afghanistan has never really been a stable or civilized nation - it's always been a collection of isolated tribes under the influence of this or that local strongman.
Yes, Afghanistan has had "functional" national governments before, but those governments "functioned" because the bureaucrats in Kabul were smart enough to let the local warlords do their thing, as long as they paid their taxes.
Afghanistan is never going to be Germany or Belgium, at least not in the lifetime of anybody on planet earth today.
I regret the blood and treasure that's been lost trying to turn Afghanistan into a modern nation - that was a fool's errand.
But I don't regret serving there and I don't think our initial invasion/occupation was unnecessary.
When all is said and done, Afghanistan belongs to the Afghanis and will be whatever THEY want it to be. If they want it to be a tribal shithole run by radicals, fighting among themselves endlessly, then that's what it will be and short of a permanent occupation, there's no way of preventing that.
Whatever Afghanistan becomes, it's not worth the life of one American soldier to go back and fix.
EDITED TO ADD: Just for fun, a picture of me on TV Hill in the middle of Kabul, taken in March 2003 (literally the day the Iraq war started):
87198
Some people tried to mount this C17 leaving Kabul like it was a slow moving train. Didn't really pan out.
https://twitter.com/AsvakaNews/status/1427206845706379266?s=20
Delfuego
08-16-2021, 10:31
Thanks Martinjmpr. I truly appreciate the perspective from someone that was personally involved.
Waitasecond...
How did the Taliban get ahold of F-15s and nukes?
Thanks Martinjmpr. I truly appreciate the perspective from someone that was personally involved.
Yes, thanks Martinjmpr. I wonder how much different Kabul looks now after $6 trillion.
Yes, thanks Martinjmpr. I wonder how much different Kabul looks now after $6 trillion.
$6 trillion would have bought self-sustaining lunar and Martian colonies and the markets that would follow shortly after founding them.
I think this is a pretty good read on the situation:
https://amplifiedbeing.com/2021/08/15/what-just-happened/
Best,
...so do our guys in Kabul have the ability and resources to defend themselves and get out of the region if Taliban decides to push and overpower the airport or wherever our troops are at?
Sounds like this could turn into a more grand scaled Black Hawk Down scenario if we aren't careful.
TEAMRICO
08-16-2021, 11:44
Waitasecond...
How did the Taliban get ahold of F-15s and nukes?
Anything is possible when you fill out a 4473 and pay your fee!!
Scanker19
08-16-2021, 11:46
Waitasecond...
How did the Taliban get ahold of F-15s and nukes?
Gun show loophole
Bailey Guns
08-16-2021, 14:09
HO-LEE-SHIT...
And I thought flying "economy" on regional airlines was bad. I can't even imagine 800 people on a C-17:
The US Air Force crammed 800 people onto a C-17 jet that flew out of Kabul on Sunday, eight times its usual capacity, as part of the ongoing effort to extract thousands of stranded Americans and Afghans from the city which has fallen to the Taliban.
The C-17, numbered RCH 871, took off from Hamid Karzai International Airport on Sunday for the Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar. It is one of at least two that have flown out of Afghanistan since the Taliban claimed Kabul on Sunday.
(Source: Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9897843/US-Air-Force-crams-800-C-17-jet-Kabul-Taliban-takes-over.html))
Martinjmpr
08-16-2021, 15:03
HO-LEE-SHIT...
And I thought flying "economy" on regional airlines was bad. I can't even imagine 800 people on a C-17:
(Source: Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9897843/US-Air-Force-crams-800-C-17-jet-Kabul-Taliban-takes-over.html))
Yikes, that's crazy. I have a good buddy (old Army friend) who is now a loadmaster on a C-17 for the NCANG. I wonder if he's caught up in all this craziness?
I was in 7th grade in Spring of 1975 when Saigon fell, watched it on TV with my dad, who served 4 tours in Vietnam.
I never in my life thought we'd see another panicked and humiliating withdrawal from a combat zone.
.455_Hunter
08-16-2021, 15:08
I never in my life thought we'd see another panicked and humiliating withdrawal from a combat zone.
A true embarrassment.
Rooskibar03
08-16-2021, 15:14
besides all the topics discussed,
there goes the world supplies of iron, copper, cobalt, gold,chromium.
This is the "other hand" no one is watching.
Pentagon saying 640 on a C17. I don't believe it. 800, no way.
BushMasterBoy
08-16-2021, 15:40
I just wonder when the next Islamic radical terrorist attack in the US will be?
Rooskibar03
08-16-2021, 15:42
Meanwhile....
87200
Martinjmpr
08-16-2021, 15:42
besides all the topics discussed,
there goes the world supplies of iron, copper, cobalt, gold,chromium.
Why? Those minerals are still valuable aren't they?
We'll just buy them from a different group of assholes than we used to. No skin off our nose. [Dunno]
Also there's lots of iron and copper right here in the USA. So to the extent that this might affect the market for valuable minerals, it will help us as much as it will hurt us.
hollohas
08-16-2021, 15:52
Pentagon saying 640 on a C17. I don't believe it. 800, no way.Here's the pic...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210816/83cbd7723b55e43d2e1d558080214766.jpg
Rooskibar03
08-16-2021, 16:52
Notice how there are at least 2 or 3 men for every woman or child in that photo.
And again what do we gain?
Germany was occupied to hold back a legitimate threat in the soviet union.
And without sounding racist, America was founded and built by european immigrants so we had an interest in rebuilding our old country. Europe is equal in values, civilization and religion. Afghanistan... not so much. There is no historic or emotional tie to them.
The main thing that we had to gain was a stable presence in a region that is spiraling into instability. The Taliban is now back in charge, and they have a modern outfitted military trained by us of about 300k people it will be a very different story in the region. Granted they will probably brutally kill about half of them and slaughter their families for working with us. I am not saying we are going to gain much at all by staying but I believe we have a lot to lose by leaving. Just because something has a cost and does not return money does not mean that it does not have value. I will make a prediction that in just a few years another threat similar to ISIS will emerge, they will be armed and trained around Afghanistan and they will be carrying the weapons we left behind. They will be bankrolled by Russia and China and will inflict damage on a much broader scale than Bin Laden was capable of. I am not talking about large scale attacks, I am talking strategic assassination's, attacks that are designed to change the way we live.
The alternative was to help a country remain stable enough to establish a way of life that they would be willing to fight for. The Taliban moved as fast as they did because they knew that eventually if the population was allowed to have hope and a normal life that they would die to protect it. They moved as fast as humanly possible to prevent any chance at hope because that is really the only thing that could have defeated their ideology. We declared a war on terrorism, a war on their ideology and that is not something that you can buy or bomb your way to victory. The only way we would ever be able to win would be to establish a population of people that had hope for their future.
Bailey Guns
08-16-2021, 17:28
Pentagon saying 640 on a C17. I don't believe it. 800, no way.
Seemed like a high number to me, too. But there's a recording of an air controller talking to the pilot who tells the controller he (or she) has 800 people on board. If the number was later revised down, different story. 640 is still a lot, even though it's been done before.
ETA: The story I quoted above has now said the revised number is 640.
Rucker61
08-16-2021, 18:20
Pentagon saying 640 on a C17. I don't believe it. 800, no way.
Boeing's record was 1100 on a 747.
Boeing's record was 1100 on a 747.
Hell of a Christmas party...
Boeing's record was 1100 on a 747.
1102 if you count the wheel hangers.
1102 if you count the wheel hangers.
I’m surprised they were willing to risk covid exposure like that.
Everyone knows that the US government is importing covid ridden refugees from other countries (with much lower covid rates than the US) to help spread the virus here.
Here's the pic...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210816/83cbd7723b55e43d2e1d558080214766.jpg
I count 342. 😀 still impressive
Where they gonna put 'em?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaS93WMRQQ
Would the AF play music to the masses?
Rucker61
08-17-2021, 06:56
Hell of a Christmas party...
El Al sent a 747 to Ethiopia to rescue a whole bunch of Ethiopian Jews. Just crammed them into seats, and people reduced by starvation don't take up that much room.
hollohas
08-17-2021, 08:32
Notice how there are at least 2 or 3 men for every woman or child in that photo.I think there are fewer women/children than that even.
The Afghan army gives up without a fight then the men fill the evac planes. How honorable.
Bailey Guns
08-17-2021, 08:55
87202
mp128369
08-17-2021, 09:05
87203
Where they gonna put 'em?
Probably in hotels until they get their steady government check and then move out into society.
Thank goodness for tax dollars right? [Sarcasm2]
BushMasterBoy
08-17-2021, 10:14
This article says they will resume the evacuation. A lot of refugees coming here now.
"Taylor added that the Pentagon’s goal, which is slated to take approximately 24 hours to roll out, is to evacuate approximately 5,000-9,000 passengers out of Kabul daily. This plan would require flying one military cargo aircraft out of Kabul per hour."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/17/flights-resume-from-kabul-airport-amid-scramble-to-leave-afghanistan.html
RblDiver
08-17-2021, 11:12
https://twitter.com/elibremer/status/1427632616707088397
Just horrifying.
BushMasterBoy
08-17-2021, 11:39
That explains the malfunction indicator in the cockpit. Poor aircrew has to deal with this.
87204
RblDiver
08-17-2021, 11:58
^ link or news?
The tweet I posted has this pic. More news: https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2021/08/17/lord-forgive-us-heartbreaking-footage-appears-to-show-afghani-who-clung-to-departing-c-17-trapped-in-the-landing-gear-photo/
Thanks.
it surprise me that they would rather take a chance (nearly 0% survival) like that.
BushMasterBoy
08-17-2021, 12:33
^ link or news?
I am assuming there was some kind of malfunction indicator in the cockpit. I worked avionics in the USAF, but I may be wrong. The most likely knowledgeable person on the subject would be a C-17 Crew Chief. The Crew Chief is an enlisted person that oversees the serviceability of the aircraft from a maintenance point of view. The USAF will probably issue a report eventually as some kind of A/C mishap.
Quote from article below:
"The body in the aircraft's landing gear has made it temporarily inoperable, the sources said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/16/dead-afghan-landing-gear-kabul-airport-505400
Thanks.
it surprise me that they would rather take a chance (nearly 0% survival) like that.
You have to have some intelligence to understand what your survival rate would even be, issues with hypoxia at altitude, holding on in 400mph wind, etc. etc.
So many people over there have the capacity of a grade school kid in many things. Black marketing and haggling, they are often pro level. Getting buy on things 15 years after we would have put it in the dump, pro level.
Estimating the future consequences of potential decisions, well.... lets just say they didn't get a participation star in that class.
Bailey Guns
08-17-2021, 13:50
And ultimately the crew will be blamed for this. And some dipshit politician will engage in knee-jerk reactivity and issue some bullshit directive that will require the flight crew to physically check the landing gear for obstructions or some shit before it can be retracted.
Fucking insanity...but that's what'll become of this.
Bailey Guns
08-17-2021, 13:51
Is there an "Opt Out" button somewhere I can click to avoid government stupidity in the future?
I am assuming there was some kind of malfunction indicator in the cockpit. I worked avionics in the USAF, but I may be wrong. The most likely knowledgeable person on the subject would be a C-17 Crew Chief. The Crew Chief is an enlisted person that oversees the serviceability of the aircraft from a maintenance point of view. The USAF will probably issue a report eventually as some kind of A/C mishap.
Quote from article below:
"The body in the aircraft's landing gear has made it temporarily inoperable, the sources said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/16/dead-afghan-landing-gear-kabul-airport-505400
Thanks for the link. I initially thought it was some kinda hoax until the news link and other social media links.
You have to have some intelligence to understand what your survival rate would even be, issues with hypoxia at altitude, holding on in 400mph wind, etc. etc.
So many people over there have the capacity of a grade school kid in many things. Black marketing and haggling, they are often pro level. Getting buy on things 15 years after we would have put it in the dump, pro level.
Estimating the future consequences of potential decisions, well.... lets just say they didn't get a participation star in that class.
Yup, hypoxia, hypothermia, and the drag will eventually tear body apart at cruising speed of C17.
I assumed they were doing that to prove a point than trying to risk them lives to get into wheel well (stowaway) which is not pressurized nor have enough room for a person.
Just found out avg temp inside the wheel well during cruising alt is -81F.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkv9pw/the-science-of-stowing-away-in-an-airplane
hollohas
08-17-2021, 15:04
Did you see the selfie video recorded by one of the Afghans riding on the outside of the plane during taxi? They were waving goodbye to everyone on the side on the runway. These folks didn't know what air travel is or the fact that it's not possible to ride on the outside of a plane. They were treating it like a train ride. Pile on and hang on.
found one.
https://youtu.be/SrsIiciMHis
What in the hell is Europe and the USA going to do with the morons inside the plane?
Great-Kazoo
08-17-2021, 17:42
What in the hell is Europe and the USA going to do with the morons inside the plane?
Take away their security clearance, and demote them 2 GS ratings.
OOPS, my bad. Thought you were asking about the diplomats.
Delfuego
08-17-2021, 18:30
What in the hell is Europe and the USA going to do with the morons inside the plane?
Elect them to Congress?
BushMasterBoy
08-17-2021, 18:53
Casa Bonita?
Pretty serious situation over there, the media is touting Taliban cooperation of allowing refugee flights out of Kabul, a peaceful power transfer and more rights for women.
Bull-shit. These guys are and always have been warriors and rule by the blade. I seriously doubt they have any military discipline and only follow the written word of Islam. They are after blood and anything goes. I'm guessing people are dying as we speak.
Waiting for the other shoe to drop. Lets hope for the best and pray for the troops, civilians and contractors stuck there and the ones going in.
hollohas
08-18-2021, 07:45
Yesterday the US Gov said they are sending in troops just to secure the airport. They WILL NOT be going out to pickup Americans and give them safe passage to the airport. They said they are relying on the "goodwill of the Taliban" to let Americans get to the airport.
Have you ever heard anything more insane?
The Dailymail is now reporting that evac flights are half empty because the Taliban won't let people through to the airport.
RblDiver
08-18-2021, 08:30
Biden has never cared about helping those who've helped us.
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/08/18/joe-biden-im-getting-sick-and-tired-of-hearing-about-morality-our-moral-obligation-the-u-s-has-no-obligation-to-evacuate-1-or-100001-refugees-from-this-war-torn-country/
Rooskibar03
08-18-2021, 09:21
No women, children or masks. Just a plane full of military aged men.
Go fight for your country.
87211
Interesting site to follow air traffic live out of Kabul. The don’t show US military aircraft but I was following a Quatar Air Force C-17 and Mi helicopter was scooting around the area.
Flightradar24 Free app.
colorider
08-18-2021, 09:24
That plane has got to smell funky as hell.
.455_Hunter
08-18-2021, 09:48
No women, children or masks. Just a plane full of military aged men.
Go fight for your country.
87211
Interesting. I thought the goal was to get out the local support folks AND their families?
The main thing that we had to gain was a stable presence in a region that is spiraling into instability. The Taliban is now back in charge, and they have a modern outfitted military trained by us of about 300k people it will be a very different story in the region. Granted they will probably brutally kill about half of them and slaughter their families for working with us. I am not saying we are going to gain much at all by staying but I believe we have a lot to lose by leaving. Just because something has a cost and does not return money does not mean that it does not have value. I will make a prediction that in just a few years another threat similar to ISIS will emerge, they will be armed and trained around Afghanistan and they will be carrying the weapons we left behind. They will be bankrolled by Russia and China and will inflict damage on a much broader scale than Bin Laden was capable of. I am not talking about large scale attacks, I am talking strategic assassination's, attacks that are designed to change the way we live.
The alternative was to help a country remain stable enough to establish a way of life that they would be willing to fight for. The Taliban moved as fast as they did because they knew that eventually if the population was allowed to have hope and a normal life that they would die to protect it. They moved as fast as humanly possible to prevent any chance at hope because that is really the only thing that could have defeated their ideology. We declared a war on terrorism, a war on their ideology and that is not something that you can buy or bomb your way to victory. The only way we would ever be able to win would be to establish a population of people that had hope for their future.
Yeah. I'm sure another 20 years is all that would be needed to civilized them and "stabilize the region."
Not about being civilized. They are going to do what they are going to do. In the 70s and 80s we show up and and arm a bund of extremists to fight Russia and then leave. That turns out really bad for us 20 years later. Now we show up and arm a bunch of extremists and leave... are you seeing a trend here? My point was, by leaving history repeats and we have no chance in accomplishing any of the goals we set out for because they were all ideological.
You can argue that it is a waste of time and money, but what is it going to cost after future attacks and we are right back at it again?
Wonder how many on that plane are Taliban headed over here to thank Biden?
who.... next?
my guess is China.
They already have national propaganda movie Sky Hunter (2017) movie with them in presence of Afrighanistan flag looking country with same terrain.
Their propaganda action movie always give me a good laugh. Should be more comedy than action.
https://youtu.be/_bVG7QrIfvI
Singlestack
08-18-2021, 13:00
Just heard the state dept deputy poobah say that they have many reports the taliban are blocking all Afghans and Americans from getting into the airport. The admin is saying they aren't going to go leave the airport to bring them in. What does that leave? Whoever isn't already at the airport is doomed/stranded. That could be the greatest crisis in modern times.
State dept lady said that 119 countries are prepared to denounce the Taliban in the strongest terms possible if they don't fully cooperate. Wow, talk about intense international pressure. Taliban must be quaking while they receive aid from Pakistan, Russia, and China.
BushMasterBoy
08-18-2021, 13:28
If China goes in there, expect their military bases to actually be mining operations. And they will profit from their occupation, not operate at a loss.
hollohas
08-18-2021, 13:37
Just heard the state dept deputy poobah say that they have many reports the taliban are blocking all Afghans and Americans from getting into the airport. The admin is saying they aren't going to go leave the airport to bring them in. What does that leave? Whoever isn't already at the airport is doomed/stranded. That could be the greatest crisis in modern times.
State dept lady said that 119 countries are prepared to denounce the Taliban in the strongest terms possible if they don't fully cooperate. Wow, talk about intense international pressure. Taliban must be quaking while they receive aid from Pakistan, Russia, and China.Yeah, people aren't getting through. Dailymail says 18 C17 flights left last night carrying a total of 2000 passengers. Avg of 111 each. We know they can cram 600+ on there, so those planes were basically empty.
Aloha_Shooter
08-18-2021, 14:40
Don't worry! Biden's UN ambassador issued a "strongly worded press statement"! That should fix 'em!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/critics-un-ambassador-press-statement-taliban
Shades of Jimmy Carter ... hell, at least his "stern letter of protest" went directly to the Soviets. Nope, Biden's got to do it via press statement ...
TEAMRICO
08-18-2021, 15:28
Yeah, people aren't getting through. Dailymail says 18 C17 flights left last night carrying a total of 2000 passengers. Avg of 111 each. We know they can cram 600+ on there, so those planes were basically empty.
They may be using the actual troop seats they have. They ARE NOT comfortable with a rucksack on your lap!
But still better than a beheading?.
If China goes in there, expect their military bases to actually be mining operations. And they will profit from their occupation, not operate at a loss.
very possible.
they share borderline with afrighanistan. Horrible terrain for both side for miles.
BushMasterBoy
08-18-2021, 16:18
Article says we have 10 billion dollars of Afghan assets. The average Afghan annual wage is a few hundred bucks.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/m/9fde056c-1320-31bd-813a-cf39605f4eb6/afghanistan-has-22-tons-of.html
who.... next?
my guess is China.
They already have national propaganda movie Sky Hunter (2017) movie with them in presence of Afrighanistan flag looking country with same terrain.
Their propaganda action movie always give me a good laugh. Should be more comedy than action.
https://youtu.be/_bVG7QrIfvI
If China goes in there... they will succeed.
Politicians control our wars with 3-6 year election cycles. China? Doesn't have to care.
China has facial recognition, emotion tracking, and outright concentration camps, aka "re-education camps" for undesirable muslims inside their own country (Uyghurs).
They don't have protestors, liberals, hippies, or anyone at all to answer to. They don't have rules of engagement like we do. They would fight a total fucking war, and then it's pretty hard to foment underground resistance from inside the walls of a Chinese concentration camp, who doesn't believe you are entitled to any rights, unalienable or not. It's also pretty hard to be motivated to resist when they haul your family off for it. They either would be reeducated, or they all will be executed. And it is IMPOSSIBLE to hide with the technology and net they deploy.
We can laugh at their movie trailers - cause we do make much better in Hollywood.
China though, knows how to control people with a fist of AR-500 steel. If they start pushing into neighboring countries then we may as well bend over and turn over the keys of the world to China, they will clean out places like Afganistan and have fresh territory for resources and future chinese settlement. Whoever used to be there will be a subchapter in our history books, not theirs....
BushMasterBoy
08-18-2021, 17:25
Afghanistan doesn't have an Air Force. I can guarantee you there are strategic bombers ready and loaded to be sent to Afghanistan. The US can bomb the Taliban into submission. That was the plan for Tehran if they did not release the hostages at the Embassy. They were going to flatten every building around the US Embassy. A B-52 can carry 70,000 lbs of ordnance.
I'm sure if POTUS is advised by the JCS to do this, he will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai5OJxnfKpw
If China goes in there... they will succeed.
Politicians control our wars with 3-6 year election cycles. China? Doesn't have to care.
China has facial recognition, emotion tracking, and outright concentration camps, aka "re-education camps" for undesirable muslims inside their own country (Uyghurs).
They don't have protestors, liberals, hippies, or anyone at all to answer to. They don't have rules of engagement like we do. They would fight a total fucking war, and then it's pretty hard to foment underground resistance from inside the walls of a Chinese concentration camp, who doesn't believe you are entitled to any rights, unalienable or not. It's also pretty hard to be motivated to resist when they haul your family off for it. They either would be reeducated, or they all will be executed. And it is IMPOSSIBLE to hide with the technology and net they deploy.
We can laugh at their movie trailers - cause we do make much better in Hollywood.
China though, knows how to control people with a fist of AR-500 steel. If they start pushing into neighboring countries then we may as well bend over and turn over the keys of the world to China, they will clean out places like Afganistan and have fresh territory for resources and future chinese settlement. Whoever used to be there will be a subchapter in our history books, not theirs....
that was one of the factors to their advantage.
They most likely not need to worry about human rights. They would not care if it is Karzai or Taliban. They will do business regardless of human rights.
Main obstacles I see so far is topo/terrain and some logistics.
theGinsue
08-18-2021, 17:45
And ultimately the crew will be blamed for this. And some dipshit politician will engage in knee-jerk reactivity and issue some bullshit directive that will require the flight crew to physically check the landing gear for obstructions or some shit before it can be retracted.
Fucking insanity...but that's what'll become of this.
Aaannnnd.... it's started....
Air Force Reviewing Fatal Incident at Kabul Airport Where Crowd Rushed a C-17 (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/08/17/air-force-reviewing-fatal-incident-kabul-airport-where-crowd-rushed-c-17.html?ESRC=airforce_a_210818.nl)
Afghanistan doesn't have an Air Force. I can guarantee you there are strategic bombers ready and loaded to be sent to Afghanistan. The US can bomb the Taliban into submission. That was the plan for Tehran if they did not release the hostages at the Embassy. They were going to flatten every building around the US Embassy. A B-52 can carry 70,000 lbs of ordnance.
I'm sure if POTUS is advised by the JCS to do this, he will.
Do you really think General Mark "I'm Biden's #1 Fan and Useful Idiot" Milley would even consider such a thing? If so, you aren't in touch with reality.
This is all a planned distraction while the senate and house reconcile "infrastructure" bills to completely transform this country's economy and social structure.
Just look how this far more important issue to Americans has vanished from the news.
After the international outrage, I bet the US allies and us waste more resources and Desert Storm the taliban out of existence. While congress furthers the destruction of capitalism. And they will increase majorities at midterm as usually happens to wartime parties.
And I can't give anymore fucks for this shithole than thier own citizens do. 20 years, a whole generation, to build a national defense force with modern arms. But a bunch cavemen come and the drop arms and run. Why should we fight for them?
hollohas
08-18-2021, 19:36
Do you really think General Mark "I'm Biden's #1 Fan and Useful Idiot" Milley would even consider such a thing? If so, you aren't in touch with reality.
Exactly. Milley said "But none of us had ANY idea that the Taliban would takeover. We were caught off guard."
Really dude?!?!?! You stand on live TV and tell the world the best military on the planet was caught off guard that easy? What a clown! Tons of people said the Taliban would takeover that fast! You were just too busy commanding woke training to listen!
That guy is going to say "bomb them ALL"? No he's not.
Then Sec Def Austin tells the world the US Military "doest have the capability" to save American citizens! W.T.F. First of all, if you dumbass woke sissies did this right in the first place, we wouldn't have this problem. Second, our military damn sure can save American people if you clowns step aside and let them do what they do best. At least until the new generation of woke trained, 50 gender he/she's become the majority when all the real men and women leave the service.
This is BS.
Bailey Guns
08-18-2021, 19:55
^^ Exactly. Milley is a pussy.
BushMasterBoy
08-18-2021, 21:29
General McKenzie is the commander responsible for Central Command which includes Afghanistan. Picture is from social media account for CENTCOM and supposedly recent.
87213
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_F._McKenzie_Jr.
Aloha_Shooter
08-18-2021, 22:35
Afghanistan doesn't have an Air Force. I can guarantee you there are strategic bombers ready and loaded to be sent to Afghanistan.
You guarantee this? With the same crowd who thought paama boy was a good marketing icon?
The US can bomb the Taliban into submission.
Can. That is far from will.
That was the plan for Tehran if they did not release the hostages at the Embassy. They were going to flatten every building around the US Embassy.
I'm sure it was offered as a possible course of action. I'm equally sure it was rejected out of hand by Jimmy "stern letter of protest" Carter.
I'm sure if POTUS is advised by the JCS to do this, he will.
I'm sure the current SecDef and CJCS would never advise him to do anything like this. I'm also sure he wouldn't even if advised to do so. I don't know why you think "Mumbles" Biden would ever make a decision like that after he just blamed intelligence for the whole fiasco. He talks a good game for the TB cameras but he'd have had skid marks if Trump had ever offered to let him try to make good on his boasts about slugging DJT.
.455_Hunter
08-18-2021, 22:35
I guess his lack of a Sig pop-gun on his belt is supposed to send some sort of a message?
Blowing up a child or fifty doesn't help re-election campaigns. America hasn't fought a total war since 1865.
"No man left behind" is a U.S. propaganda slogan that is frankly quite untrue.
Looks like the Taliban is adopting the Dems protocol. It they make a statement you can bet the opposite is true.
That C-17 is based up here at JBLM. I feel really bad for the crew.
The people willing to risk something like that likely know that they'll be tortured to death by the Taliban, so they take their chances.
Martinjmpr
08-19-2021, 08:12
Don't worry! Biden's UN ambassador issued a "strongly worded press statement"! That should fix 'em!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/critics-un-ambassador-press-statement-taliban
Shades of Jimmy Carter ... hell, at least his "stern letter of protest" went directly to the Soviets. Nope, Biden's got to do it via press statement ...
Maybe Biden will protest by having the US boycott the Kabul Olympics. [ROFL1]
Martinjmpr
08-19-2021, 08:16
After the international outrage, I bet the US allies and us waste more resources and Desert Storm the taliban out of existence. While congress furthers the destruction of capitalism. And they will increase majorities at midterm as usually happens to wartime parties.
I see ZERO chance of that happening. There is no support on either side of the aisle for spending more blood and treasure anywhere in the Middle East, much less Afghanistan. You really think the democrats who clutched their pearls at the notion of Trump taking out an Iranian general would really support an escalation? No way, no day.
And I can't give anymore fucks for this shithole than thier own citizens do. 20 years, a whole generation, to build a national defense force with modern arms. But a bunch cavemen come and the drop arms and run. Why should we fight for them?
^^^^ This right here.
I mean, this is what they wanted, right? The Afghan people WANTED this to happen, didn't they? We gave them every chance to fight the Taliban for 20 years and they chose to either sit on the sidelines or actively aid the Taliban.
They wanted the US out? Well they got it. Salaam Aleiekum, motherfuckers. It's your shithole again, wallow in it. [Mad]
so..About ashraf ghani.
if he abandoned his post as a president and run away to UAE with millions of dollars in cash, it is considered treason?
(if not , it should be)
so..About ashraf ghani.
if he abandoned his post as a president and run away to UAE with millions of dollars in cash, it is considered treason?
(if not , it should be)
Every politician in Afghanistan had two choices: Either join the Taliban in advance and help with the takeover from the "inside", or get the hell out of dodge. Not defending the guy, but it's the ones that didn't run that are more treasonous.
battlemidget
08-19-2021, 10:02
Get em before they're gone
https://tshirtatlowprice.com/products/kabul-skydiving-club-t-shirt/
87224
(https://tshirtatlowprice.com/products/kabul-skydiving-club-t-shirt/)
hollohas
08-19-2021, 10:20
(almost) Everyone agreed we needed out of there. No question there. But the Biden admin f'ed it up big-time. They took a fairly solid plan and utterly destroyed it.
Then there's this. The world and especially our allies are pissed. It's not just the folks getting ready to lose their heads via Taliban in Afghanistan that are going to suffer from this f'up, our diplomatic relationships are.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2021/08/19/british-parliament-holds-joe-biden-in-contempt-for-afghanistan-catastrophe-n1470917
(almost) Everyone agreed we needed out of there. No question there. But the Biden admin f'ed it up big-time. They took a fairly solid plan and utterly destroyed it.
Then there's this. The world and especially our allies are pissed. It's not just the folks getting ready to lose their heads via Taliban in Afghanistan that are going to suffer from this f'up, our diplomatic relationships are.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2021/08/19/british-parliament-holds-joe-biden-in-contempt-for-afghanistan-catastrophe-n1470917
In all fairness, the Europeans deserve this. I know a lot of Europeans, and 90% of the were Trump haters and now (at least as of last week) Biden worshippers. They wanted Biden. Now they get to see what happens when they get what they wanted.
Martinjmpr
08-19-2021, 12:19
In all fairness, the Europeans deserve this. I know a lot of Europeans, and 90% of the were Trump haters and now (at least as of last week) Biden worshippers. They wanted Biden. Now they get to see what happens when they get what they wanted.
+ eleventy brazillians on this.
They wanted Trump gone in the worst way.
And they got it.
They also pissed and moaned and filled their little diapers when we took out a brutal, sadistic dictator who was threatening their backyard so as far as I'm concerned, they can own all the shit that will now come their way. Don't like it? Then build up your military to our levels.
Martinjmpr
08-19-2021, 12:22
Get em before they're gone
https://tshirtatlowprice.com/products/kabul-skydiving-club-t-shirt/
87224
(https://tshirtatlowprice.com/products/kabul-skydiving-club-t-shirt/)
Just goes to show you how things come full circle, doesn't it?
Remember that song that was popular at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan?
"LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR!" [Beer]
Every politician in Afghanistan had two choices: Either join the Taliban in advance and help with the takeover from the "inside", or get the hell out of dodge. Not defending the guy, but it's the ones that didn't run that are more treasonous.
got it.
just read some Karzai article about him talking to Taliban today.
hollohas
08-19-2021, 15:34
The good news is it's pretty cheep to get a flight out. The US is only charging citizens $2,000 or more each.
https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-repatriation-assistance-for-u-s-citizens-august-14-2021/#:~:text=Flight%20Costs%3A%20Repatriation%20flight s%20are,USD%20or%20more%20per%20person
U.S. lawful permanent residents may submit a repatriation assistance request, and their request will be considered depending on availability.
Flight Costs: Repatriation flights are not free, and passengers will be required to sign a promissory loan agreement and may not be eligible to renew their U.S. passports until the loan is repaid. The cost may be $2,000USD or more per person.
Scanker19
08-19-2021, 15:40
Sounds cheaper to just “not be a citizen..”
Clearly sending out smoke to hide the issue since very few will make it to the airport.
Martinjmpr
08-19-2021, 16:06
As a veteran of both campaigns (although all my OIF time was spent in Kuwait) this sums up my feelings nicely:
87229
hollohas
08-19-2021, 17:00
You know it's too bad we abandoned Bagram. That sure would have been useful to get Americans to safety...
Biden and his admin are truly retarded.
What a cluster f....
Scanker19
08-19-2021, 17:15
As a veteran of both campaigns (although all my OIF time was spent in Kuwait) this sums up my feelings nicely:
87229
That’s a good one. I can imagine what the Afghan vets are feeling. Seeing what happened in Iraq in Sinjar and the Yzidi people succumb to those pieces of human waste, isis was heart breaking. The VA has been hot to cover their asses with the emails. I don’t remember getting those emails for Iraq.
Should have pulled our people out before the military. Not surprised that Biden got it backward.
Modern politicians would have reacted like this to Ashraf Ghani making it out with millions...
87231
My older son is currently deployed not too far away from this shitshow. Our chats talk about everything but the situation right now. I'll be curious to hear what he has to say when he gets home in a few months. I agree with the posts here about getting our people out before pulling the troops-pretty obvious to everyone but the morons in DC.
hollohas
08-19-2021, 21:10
The plan was to pull citizens out before the rest of the troops. But that was Trump's plan so it was obviously bad. They promptly threw that in the garbage.
I'm kinda starting to wonder if they screwed this up so bad on purpose so they could blame it all on Trump to really show the world how bad he is. But they even screwed that up. The media didn't even fall for it.
Yikes Doc45, all the best to the family, it'll be fine! Very tense times out there for many folks with family members stuck there.
New York has 3 major airports in the immediate area, Chicago has about the same and The West Coast has a ton. We have a shit-load of airports and they are well placed.
Afghanistan has 2. There are many thousands of US civilians to evacuate and things are bottlenecked by Taliban checkpoints in places. It is really interesting to watch live air traffic in the area. KC-10 and KC-135 aircraft orbiting east of Kabul and lots of re-fuel flights out of Dubai.
Worth checking out a few times a day. Add 10 1/2 hr, local time. flight radar24
Scanker19
08-19-2021, 21:59
The plan was to pull citizens out before the rest of the troops. But that was Trump's plan so it was obviously bad. They promptly threw that in the garbage.
I'm kinda starting to wonder if they screwed this up so bad on purpose so they could blame it all on Trump to really show the world how bad he is. But they even screwed that up. The media didn't even fall for it.
Not without trying, I seen an article today, I didn’t read, but the headline was “did trump withdraw plan tie Bidnes hands?”
Trump's exit plan was conditional. Certain conditions had to met for our full withdrawal. The Biden Whitehouse went full retard on the situation, and everyone knows it. The media trying to provide cover for the Administration looks more obviously biased against telling the truth than ever. It's not difficult for people to understand what being abandoned by your own government feels like.
I need help understanding something. I really do not get it.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/taliban-going-house-to-house-in-afghanistan-hanging-people-who-worked-with-us-source
"He told me yesterday they hung three [Afghan National Army] commanders that they had found," he said. "And that close to the place that he’s hiding, they’re going house-to-house and that they sent a transmission out saying they had plans for the people that operated with America."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/13/asia/afghanistan-taliban-commandos-killed-intl-hnk/index.html
"Over clear but unsteady video, the words ring out: "Surrender, commandos, surrender." Several men emerge from a building; they are clearly unarmed.
Gunfire erupts. At least a dozen men are seen shot to death amid cries of "Allahu Akhbar" -- God is Great.
The victims were members of an Afghan Special Forces unit: their executioners, the Taliban. The summary killings took place on June 16 in the town of Dawlat Abad in Faryab province, close to Afghanistan's border with Turkmenistan."
What I don't get.
If you know you are going to be killed if you were part of the Afghan Army / police / special forces etc, why would you surrender? Why surrender your cities?
If I knew that I was going to be executed and /or tortured to death, I wouldn't surrender. I would rather go down taking as many out as possible. Why did the Afgans simply surrender ? They know their fate. They know the Taliban will execute anyone who they think was helpful to the USA. Why not go down fighting?
Maybe they didn't watch Red Dawn? Joking aside, look how many problems partisans caused to the Germans in WW2. If Taliban were sniped when they stood at check points or blocked intersection, the wouldn't be so bold.
hollohas
08-20-2021, 09:00
The SAS is leaving the airport to extract British citizens. They have fewer than 1,000 troops in Afghanistan.
The French military is leaving the airport to extract citizens. They have fewer troops than the Brits.
But Austin says the US doesn't have the capability. BS.
It is absolutely SHAMEFUL that US commanders will not allow any of our 5,000+ troops to go out and get our people. I'm sure that sucks for those guys. They would go get our people in a heartbeat and kill anyone that gets in their way if they could just get the green light. This is bullshit.
What's really stopping our 5,000 troops from extracting our people?
battlemidget
08-20-2021, 10:02
What's really stopping our 5,000 troops from extracting our people?
https://youtu.be/P-DCgzFbo_o
hollohas
08-20-2021, 10:08
Because the admin is worried American soldiers will get killed if they let them leave the airport. This is a political nightmare already, it'd be 100x worse if American soldiers were killed trying to clean it up. Think Blackhawk down but worse.
This is 100% political. They are leaving Americans to fend for themselves to avoid possible additional bad press.
Rooskibar03
08-20-2021, 10:12
What's really stopping our 5,000 troops from extracting our people?
What difference does it make?
Sorry guys, let's get back to calling Afghans cowards for not fighting for their country and country men.
BushMasterBoy
08-20-2021, 10:34
But hey! Who signed this contract? BWHAAHAA KMAG YOYO!
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
Delfuego
08-20-2021, 11:04
Should we have stayed longer?
Would that have changed the outcome (more or less)?
It was never gonna be pretty. Leaving Afghanistan has been long overdue. I believe it was bound to be a mess anyway we look at it. Mess today, mess tomorrow or a mess next year. A slow protracted withdrawal would have still ended up with the Taliban back in control and driving Humvee's.
Lots of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. If this thread goes long enough, I am sure it will end up being Hillary's fault somehow.
hollohas
08-20-2021, 11:24
Should we have stayed longer?
Would that have changed the outcome (more or less)?
It was never gonna be pretty. Leaving Afghanistan has been long overdue. I believe it was bound to be a mess anyway we look at it. Mess today, mess tomorrow or a mess next year. A slow protracted withdrawal would have still ended up with the Taliban back in control and driving Humvee's.
Lots of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. If this thread goes long enough, I am sure it will end up being Hillary's fault somehow.You'd fit right in with DC.
Just tell us to accept the shit show as inevitable and never admit it was mismanaged or that anything could have been done better. It was 4 or 5 days ago anyway, right?
hollohas
08-20-2021, 11:31
I guess his cognitive meds didn't work today. No word on him being 30mins late to his scheduled speech addressing this disaster.
"Back in my day, we didn't have any towel bans, if you didn't want to wear a towel you just dropped your towel and all the kids could see your hairy legs. It was blond hair, glistening from the pool. You didn't need any shorts either. They used to point and say 'hey look it's a hairy weasel', but come on man, it's just a towel ban, put your weasel away" -- Biden talking to his assistants
"We're going to need another 30 minutes" -- Assistant
bellavite1
08-20-2021, 12:12
Should we have stayed longer?
Would that have changed the outcome (more or less)?
It was never gonna be pretty. Leaving Afghanistan has been long overdue. I believe it was bound to be a mess anyway we look at it. Mess today, mess tomorrow or a mess next year. A slow protracted withdrawal would have still ended up with the Taliban back in control and driving Humvee's.
Lots of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. If this thread goes long enough, I am sure it will end up being Hillary's fault somehow.
Did somebody got suicided? [Coffee]
Time to watch old movies with Shirley Temple
hollohas
08-20-2021, 12:35
Decent questions from the MSM for once. This is so bad not even the media is willing to cover for him.
Singlestack
08-20-2021, 13:00
What's really stopping our 5,000 troops from extracting our people?
The state dept agreement with the Tally Ban. We agreed to not leave the airport, they agreed to let Americans with passports get to the airport. This was the source of the blowup between 82nd airborne commander at the airport and Brit commander leaving the airport to rescue Brit/Irish citizens and helping Afghans. 82nd commander pissed off that the Brits would endanger the agreement. I say good on the Brit commander (and French commander too).
BushMasterBoy
08-20-2021, 13:11
Did somebody got suicided? [Coffee]
My friend in Arkansas was suicided. I can post a link later.
battlemidget
08-20-2021, 13:31
The state dept agreement with the Tally Ban. We agreed to not leave the airport, they agreed to let Americans with passports get to the airport. This was the source of the blowup between 82nd airborne commander at the airport and Brit commander leaving the airport to rescue Brit/Irish citizens and helping Afghans. 82nd commander pissed off that the Brits would endanger the agreement. I say good on the Brit commander (and French commander too).
When they make a movie about this, the same guy that played the Chief of Station in 13 Hours should play that 82nd commander. And the Brit CO? Jason Statham, of course.
When they make a movie about this, the same guy that played the Chief of Station in 13 Hours should play that 82nd commander. And the Brit CO? Jason Statham, of course.
Oh man this situation is going to spawn all sorts of trash movies. "Legs on a plane", "Insurgious Bastards" etc.
hollohas
08-20-2021, 13:52
The state dept agreement with the Tally Ban. We agreed to not leave the airport, they agreed to let Americans with passports get to the airport. This was the source of the blowup between 82nd airborne commander at the airport and Brit commander leaving the airport to rescue Brit/Irish citizens and helping Afghans. 82nd commander pissed off that the Brits would endanger the agreement. I say good on the Brit commander (and French commander too).
Whoever made that agreement is a moron.
The deal Trump proctored was blown at least as far back as April. If the US commander is worried about honoring an already broken deal, he's got his priorities wrong.
If it's a new agreement that has them stuck at the airport....then it's time to break that deal too.
The state dept agreement with the Tally Ban. We agreed to not leave the airport, they agreed to let Americans with passports get to the airport. This was the source of the blowup between 82nd airborne commander at the airport and Brit commander leaving the airport to rescue Brit/Irish citizens and helping Afghans. 82nd commander pissed off that the Brits would endanger the agreement. I say good on the Brit commander (and French commander too).
Sounds like the Taliban breached the contract and nullified the agreement to me.
You can't prevail against a cheater by playing by the rules...
Which is problem #1 from the beginning.
Jason Stratham +1
Only if the movie is a non-US director.
The President works for those Americans that he's left in harms way. You'd never be able to tell by the way our political elites act.
By the way, where's the VP? Is she so busy handling the border crisis that nobody can find her?
hollohas
08-20-2021, 18:58
Oh, she got important business in Vietnam.
BladesNBarrels
08-21-2021, 09:07
Interesting commentary last night.
The Russians managed to withdraw from Afghanistan without leaving equipment and personnel behind.
Not knowing anything about the Russian withdrawal, I would have to wonder how that was done.
Interesting commentary last night.
The Russians managed to withdraw from Afghanistan without leaving equipment and personnel behind.
Not knowing anything about the Russian withdrawal, I would have to wonder how that was done.
Where's that info from? There was a lot of Russian equipment there when we first went in after 2001. I'm not going to speculate where it came from, I just don't know where there's reliable info for what the Russians did or didn't do considering their press was controlled at the time (and still is...) and there were certainly russian AK's, RPKs, etc. shooting at us all these years (among many other countries of origin).
All I can say is I can’t wait for my son’s deployment to end on time and get him home safe and sound-this is number 4 for him.
A really good explanation of what's going on:
http://youtu.be/uGRY-TXEiGA
Delfuego
08-21-2021, 11:47
All I can say is I can’t wait for my son’s deployment to end on time and get him home safe and sound-this is number 4 for him.I think we can all drink to that [Beer]
hollohas
08-21-2021, 12:51
And, they're mocking us while wearing our shit. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210821/4bfdf249dd0da5ced67f4d78d1d9c566.jpg
Gotta love how the export of night vision devices is heavily regulated by ITAR and a serious violation if you ship it abroad....
Unless of course, they are for the Taliban, then it's apparently kosher. Why we ever gave some of that equipment to the Afghanistan army is beyond me - or to the Syrians for that matter. It's always inevitable that it's used against us in that theater of war.
Our government is more afraid of us than they are the Islamic terrorists.
Aloha_Shooter
08-21-2021, 14:57
Decent questions from the MSM for once. This is so bad not even the media is willing to cover for him.
They're just trying to accelerate the coronation of Queen Kamala.
I think we can all drink to that [Beer]
Thank you my friend, definitely raise a glass at that time!
Great-Kazoo
08-21-2021, 16:14
Gotta love how the export of night vision devices is heavily regulated by ITAR and a serious violation if you ship it abroad....
Unless of course, they are for the Taliban, then it's apparently kosher. Why we ever gave some of that equipment to the Afghanistan army is beyond me - or to the Syrians for that matter. It's always inevitable that it's used against us in that theater of war.
"We" basically left enough armament there to turn the talliban in to a super power. Compared to what they were, before, not to forget china, russia and pakistan. Now have direct access to all of our military hardware and how the systems work. .
hollohas
08-21-2021, 18:21
CENTCOM commander McKenize in June:
So, we have workable plans to evacuate any scale of people that we would be directed to do.
But NOW he won't let his men leave the airport to help Americans. Wow.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/06/12/centcom-commander-vows-to-keep-the-pressure-on-adversaries-even-after-leaving-afghanistan-exclusive-interview/
wctriumph
08-21-2021, 19:33
Now it seems that while the taliban says that Americans can pass through to the airport, there are hundreds of ISIS that are not interested in letting any foreigners move freely.
.455_Hunter
08-21-2021, 20:30
Now it seems that while the taliban says that Americans can pass through to the airport, there are hundreds of ISIS that are not interested in letting any foreigners move freely.
Shocking. Who woulda thought?
JohnnyDrama
08-21-2021, 20:36
@Gman Great video.
Concerning all the equipment we're leaving behind. Hopefully the Taliban will use it to play hell on the Chinese when they invade.
Biden is getting trashed over this whole thing and the Dems are in damage control mode. Our V.P. is worthless and distancing herself from the whole situation.
Things could get ugly there real fast. These Taliban guys are ruthless and unguided thugs. They are now empowered, rearmed and ready to clean house.
I'm reading a book that mentions the Mongolian Shock Troops that fought with the Russians in the last battles in Germany. Pure evil, these guys are from the same mold.
Praying for the best and I think about our troops all the time, not to mention the vets who were there.
It's going much better than I had expected, more flights in and out but not out of the woods yet.
Hats off to the folks processing, vetting and caring for the mass of people leaving, tougher than we can imagine.
I don't give a damn about numbers, unless they're the numbers of our citizens. The next group I care about are those that helped us, like translators and their families. Whatever else comes after that, fine, but it's not an expressway to let in terrorists.
I don't give a damn about numbers, unless they're the numbers of our citizens. The next group I care about are those that helped us, like translators and their families. Whatever else comes after that, fine, but it's not an expressway to let in terrorists.
Maybe it is… the left seems hell bent on wanting to destroy what this country is and what it’s founded on, they might as well try implosion from the inside with as many simultaneous contributing factors as possible.
Singlestack
08-24-2021, 11:25
This is setting up to be the greatest US humanitarian disaster possibly of our lifetime. I heard this morning the CIA director was meeting with the head of the Tally Ban yesterday. Purpose unknown, but reasonable speculation it was to negotiate for a delay to the 8/31 withdrawal date (why the hell are we even negotiating that?). Presumably the Tally Ban knows they have us over the proverbial barrel, and played hardball saying NFW. Hence this article, that just came out.
Given that the state dept and us.gov doesn't know where our people are, how many there are, where they are, and no plan to rescue - look out. We WILL BE abandoning Americans to their own fate beginning next week. I think it was a tell that the Pentagon spokesman (Kirby idiot) couldn't say the exact number of how many US citizens have already been evac'd. Thats just unacceptable. They seem to be hiding behind a defense of "chaotic situation" to give them cover for gross incompetence and planned evil in leaving people behind.
I believe Biden, Psaki, and Pentagon saying "those who want to leave will be able to leave" is a setup for an excuse saying those who didn't leave didn't want to leave. As though large numbers of US citizens would just prefer to live out their lives in that hellhole rather than return to the US.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2021/08/24/biden-pentagon-august-withdrawal-deadline-n2594628?utm_source=breakingemail
The Pentagon had little to say Tuesday about the news that the Biden administration had failed in its humiliating attempt to grovel before the Taliban in order to extend the August 31st deadline for withdrawal and instead doubled down on its plans to be out of the country by the deadline that is just one week away. That plan, now, has also been approved by President Biden.
Major General Hank Taylor reported that 21,600 individuals were evacuated in the last 24 hours at an increased pace of one departure every 45 minutes, but Taylor and Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby repeated their earlier refusals to give an exact number — or even a percentage — of Americans who have already been evacuated from Afghanistan.
"There's been no change to the timeline of the mission which is to have this completed by the end of the month," Kirby said. "We are getting them out every day," he added of Americans seeking to evacuate Kabul.
"Several thousand Americans have been safely evacuated," Kirby said, repeating the quantifier he used in Monday's briefings. "That is as far as I'm going to be able to go today."
In addition to the question of how many Americans have been evacuated or who remain in Afghanistan, the Pentagon's insistence that they'd be out of the country by the end of August raise additional questions. Among them: How long will it take for the U.S. forces running the airlift from Kabul's Hamid Karzai International Airport to conclude operations and leave the country?
"I'm not going to get into a specific tick-tock here," Kirby said when asked when U.S. forces in Kabul would need to begin preparing for departure in order to meet the Taliban's August 31st deadline, adding it will take "at least several days" in order to get equipment and personnel "safely and effectively retrograded."
While "several days" is another nonspecific answer, there are less than seven days remaining so presumably, U.S. forces in Kabul will need to begin drawing down soon, setting up a scenario in which Americans stranded in Afghanistan could watch as U.S. forces pack up and leave them behind.
Kirby explained that the "retrograde" of U.S. resources and personnel must be done "very carefully and sequenced in a very methodical way," even as President Biden's overall withdrawal from Afghanistan has been anything but careful or methodical and his decision to abide by the August 31st deadline amounts to the United States taking orders from the Taliban.
With just seven days left to finish the airlift and even fewer before American troops have to begin packing up, the Pentagon says there will be "no other additional operations" to bring Americans stranded behind Taliban lines in Kabul or elsewhere in Afghanistan to Kabul's airport.
hollohas
08-24-2021, 11:49
I would assume by now, EVERY American in Afghanistan has enrolled in the State Department Smart Traveller Enrollment Program. That's the database the embassy would use to know who's in the country. As long as they have a phone and actually want to leave, they have enrolled. Even if someone didn't sign up when they got there, they would have by now. No doubt about it. So .gov would know how many Americans are there.
The .gov doesn't want to say how many are there because they don't want us to know how many they left behind when they pull out. They know and they are purposefully withholding that info to cover their asses.
Please tell me some of the smart tech equipment we left over there are used as trojans or have remote kill switches.
hollohas
08-24-2021, 13:45
I hope they have trojans built in. I was wondering how much encrypted radio equipment was left there. Ugh.
Reports from the ground there now coming in saying the airport gates are closed and US Military is boarding planes.
Hope that doesn't mean what I think it means...
Please tell me some of the smart tech equipment we left over there are used as trojans or have remote kill switches.
I'm not sure why the entire operation wasn't booby trapped.
You start Humvee, Humvee disappears. Can't be real hard to hide a few pounds of C4 on a large vehicle.
Wanna fire up that m249? Ammo go boom, better wear your eye pro.
Singlestack
08-24-2021, 13:58
Im reading reports that Biden's press conference has been delayed by 4-1/2 hours to 2:30 our time, and that he will be announcing an immediate pull out of all US forces from the airport within 72 hours. I really, really, really hope thats wrong.
YUp. Read some FOX news, CNN, ABC, and NBC news,and said all similar.
hahahaha this administration is one joke after another. What pathetic losers we have in Washington.
hollohas
08-24-2021, 14:51
But Mr Tallyban threatened consequences if we stay too much longer! That's scary! So we'll be out in 72hrs instead of 7 days. Maybe that will make those mean ol' bearded guys happy again.
hollohas
08-24-2021, 14:54
Is he late AGAIN? Maybe they got a knot in the marionette strings???
hollohas
08-24-2021, 15:06
OMG, he's talking about the 3.4T whatever infrastructure spending...
^ here comes $50 milk carton.....
republican or democrats, I do not like anyone who dilute the value of our currencies.
Bailey Guns
08-24-2021, 17:12
Military personnel are reportedly departing from HKIA. Rarely have I wished ill upon someone... Joe Biden is making it really hard.
This is setting up to be the greatest US humanitarian disaster possibly of our lifetime. I heard this morning the CIA director was meeting with the head of the Tally Ban yesterday. Purpose unknown, but reasonable speculation it was to negotiate for a delay to the 8/31 withdrawal date (why the hell are we even negotiating that?). Presumably the Tally Ban knows they have us over the proverbial barrel, and played hardball saying NFW. Hence this article, that just came out.
Given that the state dept and us.gov doesn't know where our people are, how many there are, where they are, and no plan to rescue - look out. We WILL BE abandoning Americans to their own fate beginning next week. I think it was a tell that the Pentagon spokesman (Kirby idiot) couldn't say the exact number of how many US citizens have already been evac'd. Thats just unacceptable. They seem to be hiding behind a defense of "chaotic situation" to give them cover for gross incompetence and planned evil in leaving people behind.
I believe Biden, Psaki, and Pentagon saying "those who want to leave will be able to leave" is a setup for an excuse saying those who didn't leave didn't want to leave. As though large numbers of US citizens would just prefer to live out their lives in that hellhole rather than return to the US.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2021/08/24/biden-pentagon-august-withdrawal-deadline-n2594628?utm_source=breakingemail
The Pentagon had little to say Tuesday about the news that the Biden administration had failed in its humiliating attempt to grovel before the Taliban in order to extend the August 31st deadline for withdrawal and instead doubled down on its plans to be out of the country by the deadline that is just one week away. That plan, now, has also been approved by President Biden.
Major General Hank Taylor reported that 21,600 individuals were evacuated in the last 24 hours at an increased pace of one departure every 45 minutes, but Taylor and Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby repeated their earlier refusals to give an exact number ? or even a percentage ? of Americans who have already been evacuated from Afghanistan.
"There's been no change to the timeline of the mission which is to have this completed by the end of the month," Kirby said. "We are getting them out every day," he added of Americans seeking to evacuate Kabul.
"Several thousand Americans have been safely evacuated," Kirby said, repeating the quantifier he used in Monday's briefings. "That is as far as I'm going to be able to go today."
In addition to the question of how many Americans have been evacuated or who remain in Afghanistan, the Pentagon's insistence that they'd be out of the country by the end of August raise additional questions. Among them: How long will it take for the U.S. forces running the airlift from Kabul's Hamid Karzai International Airport to conclude operations and leave the country?
"I'm not going to get into a specific tick-tock here," Kirby said when asked when U.S. forces in Kabul would need to begin preparing for departure in order to meet the Taliban's August 31st deadline, adding it will take "at least several days" in order to get equipment and personnel "safely and effectively retrograded."
While "several days" is another nonspecific answer, there are less than seven days remaining so presumably, U.S. forces in Kabul will need to begin drawing down soon, setting up a scenario in which Americans stranded in Afghanistan could watch as U.S. forces pack up and leave them behind.
Kirby explained that the "retrograde" of U.S. resources and personnel must be done "very carefully and sequenced in a very methodical way," even as President Biden's overall withdrawal from Afghanistan has been anything but careful or methodical and his decision to abide by the August 31st deadline amounts to the United States taking orders from the Taliban.
With just seven days left to finish the airlift and even fewer before American troops have to begin packing up, the Pentagon says there will be "no other additional operations" to bring Americans stranded behind Taliban lines in Kabul or elsewhere in Afghanistan to Kabul's airport.
That guy Kirby is a tool. Even when asked for a percentage of the known Americans that have been evacuated, he repeatedly states ,"We don't have a perfect number." Nobody is asking for that you freaking moron.
The real answer is they don't know jack, they aren't willing to do jack, and a bunch of Americans are going to be abandoned by their government that is supposed to work for them.
I also heard about how they had to be methodical about the extraction. I laughed at the radio when I heard it. This has been one giant Charlie Foxtrot and only now they're concerned about some coordination?
This administration bows down to the Taliban. I remember when this country bowed down to no one. From superpower to a joke in 8 months. I want my country back.
Singlestack
08-25-2021, 06:20
If the .gov would callously simply abandon American citizens en masse, what regard do you think they have for citizens here with a different political view? Given that the left has dehumanized those not on their side of the ideological spectrum as extremists and terrorists, would anyone seriously believe they have anything but ill will and contempt? These people do not value human life at all and would discard anyone else in a heartbeat (with a heartbeat).
hollohas
08-25-2021, 07:41
That's the biggest lie ever perpetuated about the left, that they care about people. They don't. No matter how much they try to pretend otherwise, they do not value humans AT ALL.
The writing is on the wall for this now.
We're seeing the preface to overt classification of people of different viewpoints (ex: vaxed vs unvaxed) here currently and it's ramping up daily. That classification is the required first step to political retribution of certain groups. Next step, and seeds are being planted now, is complete disregard for the wellbeing of certain classes (ex: refusing to provide medical care for unvaxed). After disregard for wellbeing, the next step is open aggression. These seeds are being sowed too. The unvaxed are literally being labeled terrorists...the only reason for that is to make aggression against them acceptable.
This road is going nowhere good.
If the .gov would callously simply abandon American citizens en masse, what regard do you think they have for citizens here with a different political view? Given that the left has dehumanized those not on their side of the ideological spectrum as extremists and terrorists, would anyone seriously believe they have anything but ill will and contempt? These people do not value human life at all and would discard anyone else in a heartbeat (with a heartbeat).
Maybe if the Americans stranded in Afghanistan could only communicate that they were unvaccinated, maybe then they could get the attention of this administration.
When our government doesn't care about some of us, it really doesn't care about any of us.
To be fair, politicians in general don't really care about people at all. Most of them are career brown-nosers and have no real life experience outside of a knee band-aid at the age of 5.
Rooskibar03
08-25-2021, 10:13
Yeah but the snowflakes don’t have to read mean tweets anymore so it’s all good.
That's the biggest lie ever perpetuated about the left, that they care about people. They don't. No matter how much they try to pretend otherwise, they do not value humans AT ALL.
The writing is on the wall for this now.
We're seeing the preface to overt classification of people of different viewpoints (ex: vaxed vs unvaxed) here currently and it's ramping up daily. That classification is the required first step to political retribution of certain groups. Next step, and seeds are being planted now, is complete disregard for the wellbeing of certain classes (ex: refusing to provide medical care for unvaxed). After disregard for wellbeing, the next step is open aggression. These seeds are being sowed too. The unvaxed are literally being labeled terrorists...the only reason for that is to make aggression against them acceptable.
This road is going nowhere good.
Aloha_Shooter
08-25-2021, 11:11
All I can say here is that I've never been so glad to no longer be in uniform and subject to Article 88 of the UCMJ.
hollohas
08-25-2021, 11:38
I feel terrible for the soldiers that have been dealing with this. Can't be easy seeing especially the kids outside the airport.
Killing bad guys is one thing. Dealing with a humanitarian crisis where a whole bunch of desperate people will surely suffer if not helped, that's got to be hard. Not to mention the likely event they will be boarding planes while Americans are still there and will likely be killed. That's going affect these guys.
Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is an investigative journalist and writer focusing on the radical Left and Islamic terrorism.
"Afghanistan's collapse: Did US intelligence get it wrong?" ABC News asks.
"Afghanistan Is Your Fault," barks Tom Nichols at The Atlantic.
“Why Afghan Forces So Quickly Laid Down Their Arms,” Politico ponders.
The one thing that the Taliban's conquest of Afghanistan is good for is more media hot takes.
Afghanistan didn't fall because it never existed. The Afghan army laid down its arms because it also never existed. And not just because many of the 300,000 soldiers were imaginary. Its Pashtun members surrendered to their fellow Taliban Pashtuns, or fled to Iran or Uzbekistan, depending on their tribal or religious affiliations which, unlike Afghanistan, are very real.
The Afghan army was there because we spent $90 billion on it. Much like Afghanistan with its president, its constitution, and its elections existed because we spent a fortune on it. When we left, the president fled, the army collapsed (when U.S. stopped paying the soldiers), and Afghanistan: The Musical closed in Kabul.
Afghanistan isn’t a country. It’s a stone age Brigadoon of quarreling tribes, ethnic groups, Islamic denominations, and warlords manned by young men with old Russian and American rifles. Unlike the fiction of a democratic Afghanistan, that is something they will die for.
And in the coming years you will see some of those same soldiers who laid down their guns fighting and dying for tribes and warlords, even fighting the Taliban, in the real endless war.
The forever war isn’t something we invented after 9/11: Afghanistan has always been at war.
Americans are impressed that the Taliban held out for 20 years. They shouldn’t be.
There’s no time in Afghanistan. Two decades of war are horrifyingly incomprehensible to Americans. To Afghans, it’s the way things have always been. We stepped into a place that has been a war zone for centuries, took sides, supplied weapons, and then left as everyone knew we would. The British and the Russians came and went. After us, the Chinese will come and go.
And the forever war will go on endlessly.
Before us, the Russians wanted the Afghans to pretend to be Communists. We wanted them to pretend that they were Democrats. But the Afghans aren’t ‘Afghans’, they’re Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Balochs, Hazaras, Sunni and Shiite Muslims, everything else is just a temporary costume.
The Taliban, another Pashtun bid to seize power, will be met with resistance, not by the proponents of a free and democratic Afghanistan, but by rival tribes and warlords.
We’ll probably end up funding some of them. And maybe this time we won’t be stupid enough to ask them to hold elections or any of the other nation-building nonsense from Foggy Bottom.
Our Afghanistan campaign after September 11 was fast, clever, and ruthless. The men who conducted it understood the society. They worked together with warlords to crush the Taliban. Their goal was a quick and dirty victory that would make an example out of the Taliban.
Our allies were anyone whose current factional interests in the endless power struggle aligned with ours. As the years went on, some of our allies became enemies, and some enemies became allies. The Taliban were the bad guys, but just like in Syria, so was everyone else. There were plenty of innocents caught in the crossfire, but innocents have no power.
The average Afghan rural villager doesn’t think of being a citizen of some country called Afghanistan. He cares little for elections and his elders confuse Americans with the Russians and sometimes even the British. The elites in Kabul are happy to dress up their power grabs in presidential titles and constitutions that no one else in the country cares about. USAID pays girls in Kabul to play at feminism and college graduates to talk about international relations.
None of it mattered a damn in the vast majority of the country as we are now finding out.
But, Afghanistan didn’t become a complete disaster for us. Until Obama.
American forces peaked at 25,000 under Bush. Obama quadrupled them to 100,000. That’s the year more American soldiers were wounded than during the entire Bush administration.
1,200 Americans died during Obama's Afghanistan surge, not just because he quadrupled the number of soldiers, but because the military was told to stop trying to defeat the Taliban.
Our soldiers became community organizers with guns who were told not to fight.
No hearts and minds were won. But cemeteries filled up with boys from Texas and West Virginia who weren’t allowed to shoot back because Obama wanted to win Muslim hearts and minds.
The military brass who embraced Obama’s strategy buried and crippled a generation of young men. Countless men and women came home wounded inside. They overdosed or killed themselves.
The surge receded. The military brass pulled back to secure the cities while the Taliban secured the rural areas that we spent so many lives on. All they had to do was wait for us to leave.
The speed with which the Taliban took the country only seems magical to CNN viewers.
The country was theirs for the taking. The Taliban fought few battles. The various warlords and leaders began switching sides when Biden announced his withdrawal to join the winning team. That’s the Islamic team backed by Pakistan, China, Turkey who are the big boys still standing.
But that doesn’t mean that they won’t switch sides next month or next year.
The hated government in Kabul was backed by our money and our air power. We’re out, so are they. But the locals will hate the Taliban too. And as the Chinese come in to set up mines, run roads, and offend the locals, they’ll find out what we, the British, and the Russians learned.
Afghanistan doesn’t belong to anyone. It’s its own forever war of quarreling tribes.
The forever war will continue whether or not we’re there. But we’ll probably be there in one form or another. We never really understood Afghanistan or Iraq. And so we can’t escape them.
Al Qaeda and ISIS will operate out of Afghanistan. So will countless other Jihadi fighters.
Americans didn’t invent the forever war. It’s been going on in the Islamic parts of the world for over a thousand years. It’s unfashionable and politically incorrect to mention it. That’s why the media carefully describes the Taliban as “religious students” without naming the religion. It’ll refer to Sunni and Shiite infighting in Iraq while leaving off the “Islam” part of the group.
We came to defeat the Jihadists behind September 11 and we stayed behind to reform Afghanistan. But what were we reforming it from? We couldn’t name the problem.
And when you can’t name a problem, you never come up with a solution.
Having failed to fix Afghanistan, the process is now underway to bring as many Afghans as possible to America. The old plan to bring 100,000 “interpreters” and their family members has been vastly expanded to make any Afghan who did any work for American organizations, from aid groups to the media, eligible to come to America. By the time they’re done, we may end up with a million Afghan refugees in America. Some of them will become Islamic terrorists.
The final act of fighting terrorism is bringing the terrorists to America to create more terror.
The real tragedy of Afghanistan isn’t just that we lost so many of our best and brightest in the dust, it’s that we learned nothing from the experience. Nothing except to blame ourselves.
We didn’t fail Afghanistan. Nor did we lose Afghanistan. It was never ours or anyone’s.
Afghanistan wasn’t our forever war. It’s the forever war of the warlords and tribesmen who will keep on fighting it until the water dries up, the cattle die, and they all move to Fremont where 25,000 Afghans already live. Our mistake was not recognizing what Afghanistan was.
Americans like to believe that everyone is like us. It’s an easy trap to fall into. Wherever we go, the people speak English, listen to our music, and wear Nike shirts. They have opinions about our presidents and want to know how easy it is to move to Fremont. And we cheerfully supply them with more Nike shirts, bad music, worse movies, and try to persuade them to create a United States of Iraq or a United States of Afghanistan. Then when it doesn’t work out, they move to Fremont, Minnesota, or New York City, run for Congress, and tell us they hate us.
If we learn anything from Afghanistan, from Iraq, and from September 11, let it be this.
There have to be boundaries, physical and conceptual borders, between us and the rest of the world. American exceptionalism can’t be a narcissistic belief that everyone ought to be like us. If everyone could become us, there would be nothing exceptional about us. Our exceptionalism is that the rest of the world isn’t like us and never will be. And that if we want to protect ourselves, we have to stop trying to define the world or allowing the rest of the world to redefine America.
We could have won in Afghanistan, swiftly and decisively, and left, if we hadn’t been seduced into believing that Afghanistan could be America and that Afghans deserved to be Americans.
Likewise, Iraq.
Victories became defeats and cemeteries filled with the dead because we lost sight of the truth about Afghanistan and about ourselves. The more we think about Afghanistan or any place in terms of ourselves, the less we see it for what it is. And that can be a deadly illusion.
Americans have spent the last century trying to turn the world into America. Let’s spend this century making America what it was always intended to be: a refuge from the rest of the world.
We won’t win wars anymore because we can no longer remember what we’re fighting for. Unable to draw boundaries between the enemy and ourselves, between our nation and the world, we’ve lost touch with the fundamental purpose and even the concept of what a war is.
To win a war, we have to remember what we’re fighting for. Ourselves.
The Afghans understand that concept. Perhaps they understand it too well. But it’s time we learned it too. If we can’t go to war for ourselves, not for democracy, human rights, or so that Afghan girls can go to school, then we will lose soldiers, lose wars, and lose our nation.
All wars are endless and forever when you don’t understand what it takes to win. All wars are forever when you don’t know what you’re fighting for.
Aloha_Shooter
08-25-2021, 14:09
@Mtneer's article quoted from https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2021/08/one-thing-we-never-understood-about-afghanistan-daniel-greenfield/
http://youtu.be/a8Wgrz05MVc
[LOL]
List O' stuff donated to the Taliban:
-2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAP’s
-75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc
-45 UH-60 Blachhawk Helicopters
-50 MD530G Scout Attack Choppers
-ScanEagle Military Drones
-30 Military Version Cessnas
-4 C-130’s
-29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tocano Ground Attack Aircraft
208+ Aircraft Total
-At least 600,000+ Small arms M16, M249 SAWs, M24 Sniper Systems, 50 Calibers, 1,394 M203 Grenade Launchers, M134 Mini Gun, 20mm Gatling Guns and Ammunition
-61,000 M203 Rounds
-20,040 Grenades
-Howitzers
-Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
-162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Comunications Gear
-16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
-Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
-Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Googles
-10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
-Recconaissance Equipment (ISR)
-Laser Aiming Units
-Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
-2,520 Bombs
-Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops all operational
-Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
-Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
-Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
-US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
-Lots of Heavy Equipment Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators
It’s Worse Than We Thought: Complete List of Armaments US Is Leaving to Taliban and Islamist Groups — Enough to Fortify Them for Years – Secret Warehouse of US Equipment Captured? (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/worse-thought-complete-list-armaments-us-leaving-taliban-islamist-groups-enough-fortify-years-secret-warehouse-us-equipment-captured/)
JohnnyDrama
08-25-2021, 22:26
How many of those 20,040 grenades does anyone suspect were M-34s? I really hope the troops tried to destroy what they could before they left. This shit-show disgusts me.
Anyone want to take bets on an increase of bombings in the near future?
How many of those 20,040 grenades does anyone suspect were M-34s? I really hope the troops tried to destroy what they could before they left. This shit-show disgusts me.
Anyone want to take bets on an increase of bombings in the near future?
Not taking that bet.
Bailey Guns
08-26-2021, 06:55
With a president like Joe Biden, who needs enemies? What a national security disaster this idiot is. We're gonna be suffering from this guy's decisions long after I'm gone... You younger people are in for an "exciting" future dealing with the fallout from this ass-hat.
Next: reinstate the draft till age 64 and station near Ukraine. (retired or discharged or not)
[flamingo]
Sounds like the airport is being bombed now.
Suicide bomber at one of the gates to the Kabul airport. 3 service members wounded.
hollohas
08-26-2021, 09:56
And our allies are PISSED. Embarrass the USA like never before AND completely alienate and screw our allies at the same time, probably destroying relationships for some time to come. All in a day's work for Ol' Joe.
hollohas
08-26-2021, 10:03
Suicide bomber at one of the gates to the Kabul airport. 3 service members wounded.Didn't Biden say that if any US troops are hurt then all agreements are off?
BushMasterBoy
08-26-2021, 10:09
Is it too late for the B-52s ?
Bailey Guns
08-26-2021, 10:22
Biden?...Biden?...Biden?...
hollohas
08-26-2021, 10:40
Sshhh! He's napping...
Scanker19
08-26-2021, 11:08
Sshhh! He's napping...
Standing up with his eyes open…?
.455_Hunter
08-26-2021, 11:27
Ugh.
Four Marines killed in bomb blast.
That's what I'm seeing. 4 Marines KIA, at least 3 more wounded.
15+ civilians killed, 50+ wounded.
I'm actually a little surprised this wasn't happening sooner.
The blood of those Marines and others are on Biden's hands.
.455_Hunter
08-26-2021, 12:13
Now at least 10 Marines and Soldiers killed?
Bailey Guns
08-26-2021, 12:36
Sshhh! He's napping...
I guess that's a better excuse than "he forgot he's the president".
Singlestack
08-26-2021, 12:41
11 Marines and 1 Navy Corpsman KIA. Biggest loss of life in over 10 years, according to the news. Terrible day for us.
Last combat casualty before this was in the spring of last year.
The blood of those Marines and others are on Biden's hands.
Come on man....
You know the lazy communists that don't want to work and say "gimme dat" don't care one bit if 10 soldiers die or a million die. Their left wing gods will still give them free stuff.
Rooskibar03
08-26-2021, 13:18
Every day you think it can’t get worse, and then it does.
Might be time to bring out the Big Stick!
hollohas
08-26-2021, 13:27
Unbelievable. CENTCOM Commander McKenzie is on TV now. It's basically going like this...
"It's a bummer but we're going to update our procedures to try to stop this from happening again. We've got the TallyBan helping screen people outside the gates and that helps. We're also using our Afghan partners there as a tool to give us other kinds of security. We're giving them Intel to act on. The TallyBan wants access to the airport back so they're working with us and providing us with security from these sorts of attacks. We have enough troops there to do what we need. It's tragic but we're working with the TallyBan to complete our common goal."
WTF am I hearing? The man who's men just died at the highest toll in years thinks it's no big deal because the TallyBan is protecting them while he's "updating procedures"?!?!?! W.T.F.
Singlestack
08-26-2021, 13:28
You mean the MoaB?
"The bad guys can never beat the US because they don't have F-15s and Nukes"
-- Joseph Robinette Biden
hollohas
08-26-2021, 13:29
Might be time to bring out the Big Stick!Ha! Watching the Commander right now. There won't be any big stick. He literally said the Taliban were partners. Yeah right. I'm sure the Taliban hated seeing US troops die today at the hands of ISIS.
Anyone but Trump they said...
BushMasterBoy
08-26-2021, 13:50
Latest social media showed strategic bombers arriving in western Europe. You could draw a line of destruction with these weapons systems. Jus' sayin...
Great-Kazoo
08-26-2021, 14:10
Latest social media showed strategic bombers arriving in western Europe. You could draw a line of destruction with these weapons systems. Jus' sayin...
If they had the will to use them. Even the media is in the tank on this.
hollohas
08-26-2021, 14:15
There's always bombers in western Europe. We have assets in the Mediterranean too. And elsewhere in the middle east. I wouldn't read into that too much.
Trump warned the Taliban that if any US troops were killed, he'd make them pay. He probably already have bombs in the air headed for Akhundzada's dinner table if he were still prez. I'm not so sure Biden will follow through with that.
is #notmypresident hash tag resurging?
hollohas
08-26-2021, 14:22
We're not sure where Joe is so we don't really know if he's our President or not.
hollohas
08-26-2021, 15:02
Let see how late Ol' Joe is for his scheduled statement to the press today. Only 2 minutes so far...
hollohas
08-26-2021, 15:12
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-biden-admin-gave-taliban-list-of-american-citizens-green-card-holders-and-afghan-allies-that-needed-to-get-into-airport-report
The Biden administration reportedly gave the Taliban a list of the names of United States citizens, green card holders, and other Afghan allies that needed to be allowed into the airport so they could be evacuated ? a decision that sparked widespread outrage from officials and critics.
Singlestack
08-26-2021, 15:22
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-biden-admin-gave-taliban-list-of-american-citizens-green-card-holders-and-afghan-allies-that-needed-to-get-into-airport-report
Are you Fing kidding me????
Why not just execute them yourself and be done with it? No hostages, nothing "messy". Does that twisted old coot not remember what the Taliban did to Afghan allies before> Beheading videos anyone?
Just like handing Putin a list of vulnerable computer infrastructures that they weren't supposed to hack.
You have to respect the pattern.
I'd repeat myself from 2 days ago, post #197, but I think you all already agree....
BushMasterBoy
08-26-2021, 17:11
Secret weapon?
https://qz.com/2052221/why-the-us-military-may-reveal-a-top-secret-space-weapon/
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