thread about Socialized medicine and socialized eduation

[HBARleatherneck]

I want to hear peoples differing opinions on why socialized medicine is bad, and why socialized education is good. Civilized discussion. we have had too much angst and animosity lately.

We have had socialized education for a long time in this country. It has now become the norm. At some point it was not the norm and people were educated privately at home or in private institutions. is it because nobody in this last couple generations has even thought that there was a time when it was different? Now with the way we live, 2 parents working, public schools have to exist, because who would watch our kids? would 1 parent have to stay home? then we would have to live in smaller house and live a more meager exsistence. These are my thoughts. Why is socialized healthcare bad. I have VA healthcare. I never had a civilian doctor basically in my life. The VA has allways given me first rate care. So, socialized medicine cant be ALL bad. Lets talk. CIVILY

i think most government programs could be scaled back. i think that education and medical care are important. maybe a set standard that we have for minimum public education and medical care. and do away with things like government funded aids testing in africa, art, unnecessary things. i believe educataion and medical care are pretty important. i think that these things should be state level. i am no expert. but kept at the local level, they might have a chance at not being so large. then if parents live in...say cherry creek and they have the set amount of tax dollars to educate thier kids, but they want to kick in extra funds to make the school better, thats great. but at least the minimum tax dollars would still take care of watts, or compton . ideas?

[BigBear]

I will try to chime in with my thoughts...

I belive your points for socialized education are valid. There seems to be a universal consensus on what is valuable knowledge and what is not. With the way our corporate structures are setup and the certain skill trades needed, there seems to be a lacking desire to get out of that norm... Along the lines of "it's a routine": i.e. if you want to work in x bussiness, you need to have x degree from x school. Also, socialized education has become somewhat of a babysitting service for working parents but I won't go into that detail.

As far as socailzed medicine. I am an Army Brat so I have had the opportunity to see both the military and civilian world in terms of doctors and hospitals. I had my car wreck when my father was still active military. Those doctors put me back together wonderfully. However, earlier in my life when we were stationed in Germany on an American base, I had to get my adenoids out and some tubes put in my ears along with some stiches in my elbow. These were the same military doctors... well, the stiches broke before I was out of the hospital, the tubes fell out of my ears causing major problems (believe it or not but I'm partially deaf in my left ear), and they only took out one adenoid.... unheard of. Yes, eventually it was all fixed. So there are good and bad concerning military doctors.

On the civilian side, I've had several reconstrutive surgeries from my car wreck... it seems like the civilian world is just concerned with the bottom line.

As far as socialized medicine is concerned, I can see some vaild points for it such as common network of doctors sharing information, prices may (or may not) be covered for "extra" services instead of being denied by insurance coverage, etc. However, I also believe that if our system were to be socialized, it could turn quickly into a governement taxation system (like it has in Great Britain and Canada) where the quality and quanity of care diminishes rapidly. There would be a cap on doctors pay, what they were regulated to do, etc.

Why does it work in the military? Because those doctors are taking care of our countreies defenders and family.

Why wouldn't it work in the civilian world? Too many examples to list such as the Great Britian and Canadian systems.

Looking forward to a great conversation!!

[Irving]

It has to do with the way that everything else in society is compartmentalized and specialized. People become trained to specialize in one area, then use their money to purchase things they can't produce on their own. The only difference with schools, is that the government has decided that it is so important that they will pay for it (by taxing YOU for it).

So, the question is, are you more curious about why institutions that just specialize in education exist? If so, you might as well pose the question "why don't you grow your own food and build your own homes?"

Or, is your question more along the lines of why people have settled for mediocre government run schools? I suspect the answer to that is because they are abundant, convenient, and cheap.

[Hoosier]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.

[HBARleatherneck]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.


this is true. we have been a socialist country for years. not that its bad. just have to maintain some acceptable balance. republican balance is less, but still some. democrat balance is more.

every aspect of life is nearly touched by "socialism" roads, schools, medicine, military, parks, and the list goes on and on

[ChunkyMonkey]

One of the best socialized medicine in the world is in Singapore. That being said, the govt does not require everyone to be in it either. It's private hospitals and doctors are among the top 5 in the world.

How those two can go along side by side? It has a lot to do with the lack of entitlement or hand out mentality.

[HBARleatherneck]

i went to a religious school for many years. but, at some point my father coulnt afford the couple hundred a month, so i was sent to public school. my father would have never allowed me to read the books we did in school, but because the school had us read it, he allowed it. so he went against his principles for the "free education"

we have no voucher system for religous or people who might find a better solution for thier kids. should we? some people pay into a system they dont use. do they deserve some monies to educate thier kids as they see fit?

[WillysWagon]

For VA Health Care, someone had to serve in the Military to get it, either you're parent if your were a youngster or yourself. This type of healthcare was something someone 'earned' by serving. Now take someone who's an 'illegal alien' going to the ER for free healthcare. I have a problem with that, as they've not contributed to the system and therefore should not get any benefit that others pay for, not to mention the "illegal" part of them being here. My sister-n-law is a US citizen now (she's from Romania) and she went through all the mess to get it, why can't others.

Education (public & private) is something that's for the 'common good' of all Americans. I feel it's the parents responsibility to raise & teach their younsters. I homeschooled my step-son for several years and paid my own way for it, but was paying for others to send their kids to public schools through the taxes I pay. Essentially, I was paying twice. I like the idea of parents paying more for their kids to go to school and me paying nothing, cause I don't have any kids. You want kids, you pay for their education. Illegal aliens get the benefit of their kids going to school on your/my dime and they pay nothing for it because they get paid under the table, no taxes and what not. Again, I have a problem with that.

Just my .02, YMMV

[HBARleatherneck]

i am combat disabled veteran. 100% so i hope i earned my VA care. (maybe there is a starting point, everyone serves in the mil, everyone gets medical

one problem with all gov programs is size. going off the thoughts of WIllysWagon. we all pay into a system, and some(illegals) take advantage. but, the other problem is budgets grow exponentially each year. what does it really cost to educate our children? what do we(as a collective) pay per child. i think we pay much more than we should, and i think more than we get in return.(in most cases)

and i am talking about costs like building upkeep, utilities, upgrades, new structures, etc. also.

[Beprepared]

I like to take an antiquated and 10th amendment approach. The Feds should be contributing (taxing) for military, (some) roads, international issues, and a few minor misc. things. The State is responsible with its own constitution and laws to take care of or not, anything else. If a State chooses to implement socialistic laws, I vote at the ballot box or with my feet. This includes education, health care, and yes, 'some' gun control issues.

My wife is a long time nurse. Health care went economically south when Medicare started to price fix. It steadily drove costs up. Tort reform would be great. But once again that is squarely in the States jurisdiction. If places like Texas and believe it or not California choose to reform malpractice laws great. Also, if a State elects to open its borders to interstate health insurance commerce, good for them they will benefit from free trade. But it is their right, not the Feds.

As for education, thank God Colorado has choices. You might guess what I'm going to say. More State and local rights not Feds. If a community chooses to have good schools and educate its youth they will prosper. If they don't MOVE! With the Feds controlling everything, they have taken away what the founders so painstakingly argued. A Federal system not National. Nowhere in early documents does it say National. This was very deliberate, and many fought hard to keep it that way.

[WillysWagon]

i am combat disabled veteran. 100% so i hope i earned my VA care.

one problem with all gov programs is size.

Yep, you're healthcare is 'earned', just like mine was. The slippery slope is deciding what do we pay for as a whole society vs what do we have people pay for seperately. We pay for streets to be maintained, street lights to work, etc..because it benefits us as a society. But where do we draw the line and say, "You want that, you gotta poney up for it yourself".
An example is healthcare, let's say I pay the same amount for gov healthcare as "Joe Citizen" over there. I don't use it cause I'm healthy, but "JC" is there once a week cause he smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, whatever and is using/abusing the system to the fullest. Is it fair he pays the same as me even though he uses it more than I. Good question I think. We can't be a 'pay as you' go society, cause that just would never work. I'll only pay for the streets I drive on, not the ones I don't use, etc... How do we decide whats for the "Common Good" ?? This part scares me as the gun grabbers say, "We want gun restrictions for the common good", but who's common good is it for ??

HBAR, this is the type post that we can talk about forever and not come to a conclusion on much, hahaha. Good stuff to think about though.

[HBARleatherneck]

yes, agreed, power to the local level.

this is better for libs too. not just for conservatives.

so if a state wants to give gays or any other group equal or preferential treatment, thats thier business. if they want to tax themselves to death. thats thier business. some will stay. some will go.

[Backinblackrifles]

Well I have said it here before, Most guys on this sight don't trust the government with You're rights, You're money, You're guns, or You're best interest Why would You trust them with You're Children?

The biggest argument I see now against home schooling is that the kids are not "socialized" I for a fact know this is complete BS. Kids that are home schooled have a since of responsibility, and tend to be taught how to think rather than WHAT to think. Parents seem to think they are not "educated enough" or don't have time again I call BS, If You raise You're child from an early age to be responsible leave them at home give em the rules and tell them what You expect to do while You are gone, such as, Don't answer the door, Do You're work I will check it when I get home, Read You're bible (if You believe that) and then if they do it reward em if they don't punish em, As a teacher You are supposed to show them how to find the answer Not give it to them.

There was a time when I believe the system was not all that bad, But now it is completely lacking Kids coming out of the public system Have no sense of responsibility, They get on sports teams and they suck, they are told to do the work and they don't and there are no repercussions they get away from it. If they don't do the work they are putt in "special" classes and then given the answers. My wife went to the public school system for awhile, Her family has a history of being Dyslexic ( and not the kind that comes from bad phonetics ) she actually sees things backwards, they called her stupid putt her on riddling stuck her in a "special" class and said She had ADD and nobody made an effort to help Her.( She was pulled out and home schooled with great success and graduated) Then graduation comes and they have NO idea what the real world is like, Because they were never pushed or handed discipline or told they have to be better than every one else they are told "just play on the team and do You're best" (codling voice), I mean seriously when was the last time You went to a job interview competing against 200 other people that want the job and You get hired because the Boss thinks You are going to do You're best? NO YOU GET THE JOB BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER THAN THE REST! Little boys are getting neutered being told they have no responsibility to their families because they are no longer being taught to be Men, they turn 18 get kicked out into the world and have 0 real world experience they get some girl knocked up and then have NO clue how to be a MAN and raise and care for a wife and child, They can't even take care of themselves!? And it scares the hell outta me, You raised You're child changed their dippers, Fed them, worked hard so there is a roof over their head, Now look at You're Child and ask You're self when the tables turn and I NEED MY DIAPERS CHANGED, AND I NEED SOMEONE TO FEED ME, AND I NEED SOMEONE TO PUTT A ROOF OVER MY HEAD, Do You look at You're child and feel comforted? Every one here Has a problem with Obama If You have a child in the age range of 18-26 You can probably thank them and their friends and other people in their age group for that little surprise, Obama "ideas" are what they are being taught. And We have been so lax about it that there is very little You as a parent can do about it because we are to busy for whatever reason, as were most of our parents that We have Pissed away our right to have any say what go's into are Younger generations Heads. Well that is about all the steam I have for now, but one last point, Are You guys going to tell You're kids Guns are bad? Don't touch them they can hurt You? Or are You going to teach them how to wield the greatest power man kind possesses to take life ( and anybody with a gun has this power easily accessible) and to be responsible with that power? Or trust it to other people? Remember YOU'RE Child may someday be the MAN or WOMEN with the little red button and the nuclear launch codes at their finger tips one day.

So for the second time In closing, wether You send You're Child to public school or home school it is YOU who have the responabilty to teach and train YOU'RE child because math, science, and english, Are the least important when it comes to making a responsible, upstanding human being. In the end it is going to be all our fault for whatever reason We chose to ignore our children and We will one day be at their Mercy. [Help] And I am scared.

[WillysWagon]

"Social Security" is another we pay into and have no choice about it.
"Social" is even in the title.

[Backinblackrifles]

HIGH SCHOOL ~ 1955 vs. 2010

Scenario 1:
Jack goes quail hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck's gun rack.
1955 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2010 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Scenario 2:
Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1955 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2010 - Police called and SWAT team arrives ~ they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Scenario 3:
Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students.
1955 - Jeffrey sent to the Principal's office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2010 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The family gets extra money (SSI) from the government because Jeffrey has a disability.

Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1955 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman.
2010 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has an affair with the psychologist.

Scenario 5:
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school..
1955 - Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock.
2010 - The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. His car is then searched for drugs and weapons.

Scenario 6:
Pedro fails high school English.
1955 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.
2010 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.

Scenario 7:
Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed.
1955 - Ants die.
2010 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents ~ and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny's dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
Scenario 8:
Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.
1955 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2010 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.


And the now is our parents fault, And if we don't do something as parents it will soon be our fault and our problem, Our generation will be the ones that have to pay, That SS check is not going to last forever, even if it does, it wont be worth anything, Neither Dem. or Rep. Seem to understand that they can print as much money as they like But without gold to back it, it is not worth the paper it is printed on. And that is economics 101. Most of us are going to rely on our Kids for finacial support at some point or another, Scary Yes? My Granddad Paid into SS over 40 years 20-30k and he now receives per month between 2.5 and 3k he has been retired for 19 years now You do the math and what they have paid Him back over that period of time? Now where is the extra money they are giving him coming from? You're pocket, the system will fail it is only a matter of time and how long will we let it limp on? You're child is You're only hope of surviving this failure. The SS system has failed every other country to ever implement such a system I don't know why people don't think it will fail Us.

[GreenScoutII]

You know, the issue of what to do about health care is one I've struggled with for a long time trying to decide what to believe.

My objection to the current health care reform is that it forces all of us to do business with a private insurance company. I see this as only benefiting the insurance companies and only leading to much higher rates for consumers. Stuart and anybody else in the insurance business, don't take this personally, but my experiences with insurance companies has been negative overall and I have little to no confidence that they will ever do right by anyone other than their own bottom lines. Also, this is a constitutional issue as I see it because I don't see any grounds the govt might have to assume it has the authority to make us do business with any company.

The issue of constitutionality brings up an interesting question to ponder: Does the constitution forbid any kind of socialized endeavor? Public school, city fire & police departments, road construction and maintenance all fall into this category. As such, I don't necessarily see an issue. Another point to consider is that we already have socialized medicine for a sizable number of our citizens. We have medicare, medicaid, the VA, and, I'm sure some others I haven't mentioned. Also, we have socialized medicine by default in many cases. When a person arrives at an ER with some condition needing immediate treatment, that treatment is provided regardless of the patients ability to pay. Ultimately those costs are spread out over the rest of us. Thus, socialized medicine by default.

Speaking for myself, I see health care as something a little different than the strict business transaction that many of my more conservative friends view it as. With almost any other business agreement (buying and selling) of goods or services, no one is likely to die if that good or service is not provided. I see it as an issue of human rights and common decency. I just don't think it is acceptable to allow people to suffer and even die when there are treatments which could save them. I can't justify this morally. It has been said that the true measure of a society is in how it treats it's weakest members. I believe this. If that makes me a liberal, so be it. Flame away.

I don't think socialized medicine would be perfect or even work much better than what we already have. There would be abuses, there would be people who want to be seen for every cough, cold, and case of the sniffles, I'm sure there would be scammers too. Also, I'm sure the cost would be incomprehensible, but, as I understand it, we already pay more per capita for health care than any other western nation. The only way I see our current system as better than anyone else's is that we can obtain treatment more quickly for non life threatening conditions.

Maybe it is time to consider what kind of society we want to be. Does coming together as citizens to benefit the common good necessarily vacate the constitutional principals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or are the two concepts not mutually exclusive?

Guys, I'm no expert. I'm just a plumber, an average blue collar guy. But what I do know is the system we have at present is broken. I'm not saying we need to have socialized medicine, but we have to do something.

Oh, and in case anybody thinks I'm one of the people with his palm out looking for a freebie, we have private health insurance. GOOD insurance we pay through the nose for. I don't really see how paying for health care could get much more expensive for my family than what we already pay.

Also, I just enrolled my girls in Catholic school because I don't think public school is anything more than a way to warehouse young people. So I do see both sides. I'm just trying to provoke discussion.

This is a great thread! Come on guys, what are your thoughts?

[HBARleatherneck]

your last post, is what i have been getting at. why are people so adamant against socialized medical, but ok with socialized education?

is it everyone trying to be tough, anti-liberals? so we follow the line and the line says we are against healthcare for the masses. this is definetly a moral and ethical problem. more that just politics. what if one of us/you lost all means to make money and needed medical care? do we say screw you? you should have planned for it? my question

maybe we need to remove some of the "frills" from our society to make sure we can provide a good education and medical treatment.
i am also no expert. i was a certified police officer. i was 8 years Marine Corps. i was a professional farrier. but, i am a father, a husband and i do care about people for the most part. i hate to see unnecessary suffering.

what if we got rid of national endowment for the arts? rid public subsidized non essentials like that. maybe you have a list of items we could cut or cut back to improve education and provide care for people. i am against forcing someone into school or healthcare, but as a caring and human society wouldnt it be good to provide those two?

[Backinblackrifles]

When a person arrives at an ER with some condition needing immediate treatment, that treatment is provided regardless of the patients ability to pay.

This is what I don't get about the whole thing, I think the point about the new bill is greed, I believe that the above is " The great American Way" why would we increase taxes, Kill all the tree for the paper to implement it? The only two things I can think of is.. A it is a stunt by Mr. Obama he wants to be remembers as the first Black president and can show the world something ( I don't know what) B... Greed. I think Mr. Obama wants A.. and the people that he works for want B.