View Full Version : Anyone Know This Moron???
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 06:43
http://www.9news.com/news/article/190554/188/Woman-says-man-pointed-gun-at-her-over-parking-space-
HBARleatherneck
03-31-2011, 06:49
I wonder about the thought process that goes into making this kind of decision.
" i need to park and get my hemorhoid cream. right now". " i will just speed things up by threatning someone with my gun", "what harm could come of it", "its not like someone is going to turn me in and I will go to jail" "ok, thats what I will do, pull a gun on a woman over a parking space."
dumb fuck.
bellavite1
03-31-2011, 07:11
I'll be the Devil's advocate here:[Muaha]
What if that bitch was PMS'ing and was actually driving toward the guy?
Whatch the video guys, this is what he stated in the report.
This could be why he was not charged on anything more.
You know damn well that if he just pointed the gun whithout some sort of a good reason this would be a felony menacing charge, no questions asked...
Isn't a car a weapon too?
wow , thats just fantastic , this a**hole is part of the problem .Just another nail in the gun rights coffin . Grrrr as a responsible gun owner id really like to smack the dog s*ht out of that guy .
Yea, Hang him, Screw him, we don't need any proof. The news media is always right. Nobody ever lies.
I agree with bellavite1. There isn't enough information to say who was wrong. If she was trying to assault or threaten him with her car he could be justified. Maybe he should have just stayed in his car.
I hope the truth comes out. This does illustrate the how serious it is to carry. No matter what the end result he is out a bunch of money.
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 08:43
I'll be the Devil's advocate here:[Muaha]
What if that bitch was PMS'ing and was actually driving toward the guy?
Whatch the video guys, this is what he stated in the report.
This could be why he was not charged on anything more.
You know damn well that if he just pointed the gun whithout some sort of a good reason this would be a felony menacing charge, no questions asked...
Isn't a car a weapon too?
In a King Soopers parking lot, I would have had a ton of options. Pulling my gun on a woman would not have been one of them.
Lex_Luthor
03-31-2011, 08:49
First in line for his permit!
Wait a damn second here..
His statement is that she started DRIVING TOWARDS HIM IN A CAR.. She refutes that... initial report done, and no charges are filed. She then whines to the city council (probably knew one of them) they put it in front of a liberal judge, and suddenly he's the bad guy.
I'm sorry but 'disparity of force' comes into play when someone is in a fucking car driving at you. Disparity of Force is defined as a situation that any reasonable person would conclude places you at an overwhelming disadvantage in your effort to protect yourself against immediate and serious bodily injury.
He drew his weapon, and pointed it at her vehicle. That was enough for her to cease her actions.
Reverse the situation and remove your double standards of this poor defenseless woman driving.
It's a woman out of her car, with a man driving towards her, she pulls her revolver.. Same situation.. yet you'll think it's warranted.
Ever been hit by a car? 3k+ lbs moving even at 5mph isn't a love tap. At 15mph it HURTS like hell.
Cops looked at surveillance video and could find no proof either way to support their claims..it became he said she said. They left it at that, lesson learned. But one party throws a fit, takes it to someone she knows on the council, who heard HER side of the story. Gives it to a judge HE knows.. and wham.. charges. Now the man legally carrying his firearm, who did not even have need to discharge, just present it, is made to look like the BG because a poor woman in a defenseless 3k_ lb blunt object was driving at him for a parking space.. [Bang]
Filter them both out of the gene pool. Arguing over a parking space at King Soopers is about the stupidest thing I can think of getting into an altercation about. Holy crap, one of them might have had to walk an additional 20 friggin yards to get to the door! That's certainly a reason to use deadly force.... [Rant1]
CrufflerSteve
03-31-2011, 09:25
"The investigator also pointed out the camera quality wasn't good enough to tell if a person is holding anything in their hands that would be considered small."
If she was menacing him with a car that would not be small and even a poor quality video will show this. If she did this, the video will all be needed for his case. If not, he shouldn't own a gun, much less have a concealed permit.
It's hard to say here. Some parking lot cameras are moving back and forth so they can have fewer cameras. If it missed the whole thing he should walk but I'm not so sure about keeping a permit. I have a bum knee and don't move fast. Even for me, in the time it takes to draw and aim, I could between two parked cars.
Steve
KevDen2005
03-31-2011, 09:31
wow , thats just fantastic , this a**hole is part of the problem .Just another nail in the gun rights coffin . Grrrr as a responsible gun owner id really like to smack the dog s*ht out of that guy .
This is exactly what law abiding gun owners and carriers do not need.
I have not read all of the comments but he is probably lucky the other person was not another law abiding gun carrier...they could have defended themselves if a gun was pointed at them.
Daniel_187
03-31-2011, 09:40
Its a lot of he said she said. I don't know if he is on this fourm(so forgive my lack of details) but a guy ridding his scouter on the shoulder and had his pistol on his belt and some guy almost hit him, and then guy on scouter flipped the bird and guy in car called the cops and said he pulled his gun on him. So Unless i was there I really can't say. just lots of ass holes out there
Filter them both out of the gene pool. Arguing over a parking space at King Soopers is about the stupidest thing I can think of getting into an altercation about. Holy crap, one of them might have had to walk an additional 20 friggin yards to get to the door! That's certainly a reason to use deadly force.... [Rant1]
amen brother [Beer]
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 10:22
All the he said, she said BS, is exactly why I very seldom open carry anymore.
KevDen2005
03-31-2011, 10:25
Well I don't know how much of it is going to be he said/she said if he admitted it and turned himself into the police
Well I don't know how much of it is going to be he said/she said if he admitted it and turned himself into the police
Well he had no choice, and as a concealed weapons permit holder, it was the right thing to do. Once the initial report was done, and no charges were brought against him, he learned from the experience.
He probably then got a call from the investigator assigned the case after it was forced upon the city council...
bobbyfairbanks
03-31-2011, 10:31
Well way to Monday Quarterback this one guys. None of you where there and the only info posted was from the news. I am sure the news is always right. I hope you dont choose who you will vote for with the same ill regard.
Lindsay, 53, has a concealed weapons permit, but that doesn't atomically allow the permit holder to show the weapon in public.
I need a permit that atomically allows me to do something. Anything.
Well way to Monday Quarterback this one guys. None of you where there and the only info posted was from the news. I am sure the news is always right. I hope you dont choose who you will vote for with the same ill regard.
Totally agree.. The site host has moved us into a pasture :)
Seamonkey
03-31-2011, 10:42
Need more data
68Charger
03-31-2011, 10:50
I'm with everyone who's stated we're not hearing the whole story...
In my experience, there's at least 3 sides to every story- in this case:
1) the one this lady is spouting to the news, maybe even matches what she told police.
2) the one the CHP owner told the police when he turned himself in
3) exactly what happened, with no partiality and nothing left out
in the end, nobody was hurt- and the local news got a field day... hoping to bump their ratings with sensationalism...
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 11:10
Guys, Put the hammer and nails down and step away from the cross...
Lets play what if.
What if this statement is true
Lindsay told investigators the woman started driving towards him and because he was now out of his car he "feared for himself and did remove his handgun from his pocket."
road rage is ugly, it knows no gender.
I had a woman try to run me down in the best buy parking lot near 92d and Sheridan. Psycho bitch took out 4 cars.
Yes, over a parking spot.
I have that effect on women :D
I am not saying anyone was right or wrong here. I'm Simply stating we are wrong for perpetuating the trial by media.
Sometimes, proper use of force simply means letting the person threatening you know you are armed and will defend yourself if needed.
On a side note: Should someone direct their motor vehicle at me while I have my son, they would find the corpse behind the wheel, with the vehicle still in drive.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 12:30
Ya, what if she was? Why is the guy outside of his car regarding a parking issue?
Self defense is not a valid claim if you provoked the action in ANY way. Even if she drove towards him, he has no valid self defense claim because he got out of her car and approached her over a parking issue.
Furthermore, he admitted he pulled his firearm and pointed it at her. Preponderance of the evidence? Unless the LEO they interviewed is completely fabricating bullshit, then this is pretty cut and dry *regardless of the circumstances*.
Assuming the LEO isn't magically fabricating the interview and admission of guilt, we know for a fact:
1) It was over a parking spot, and both parties wanted it. The woman pulled in first. (not disputed by either party)
2) At some point, the guy STEPPED OUT OF HIS CAR AND APPROACHED HER (he admitted this, and this is not disputed by either party)
3) At some point, the guy PULLED HIS FIREARM AND POINTED IT AT HER (he admitted this)
What happened between 2 and 3 bears absolutely no relevance. I don't care if she was a serial killer brandishing a severed horse head and twisting around like the exorcist. Read Colorado law regarding physical use of force. He had absolutely no justification to pull his firearm. If you walk into a bar and randomly point and shout to someone "I'm going to kick your ass" and they start to approach you, you don't have ANY legal basis for physical use of force.
Instances like this give good permit holders a very bad name.
I'm Sorry sir, Media spin gives permit holders a bad name.
You have already convicted him without a trial.
again, we weren't there, we dont know what happened, he says he was already out of his car when she drove her car at him, she says he pulled the gun for no reason.
I believe it's up to 2 lawyers to prove and 12 jurors to decide.
"On the initial scene the officer presented what was known at the time to his sergeant and then lieutenant. After a discussion based on the accounts of the people involved, no independent witnesses and no other compelling evidence it was determined that no party would be charged.
The THREE Cops seemed to think it was a bunch of BS until she went crying to the city council about it... Yet another case of politicians trying to do everyone's job except their own.
and to be honest, if the three cops are called to the stand for the defense and asked "Why didn't you initially charge him?" That case is getting pitched out like yesterdays trash.
And as Usual, her mouth is hurting her case.
"He stepped out of his vehicle... pulled a revolver, a black revolver and it was a pretty little gun, it was newer type, small and he just mouthed at me, 'Move your car,'" she said.
Defense attorney: So Ma'am, you are trying to convince this court that you were terrified and in fear for your life by something you described as a "pretty little gun"
and the fact that they prop up something as small as unlawful display of a weapon as opposed to felony Menacing. I See nothing coming of this except an excuse for the Brady campaign to take your guns.
I am shipping mine to the Philippines.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 12:38
damned non-conformists
Rules dont apply to them.
Seems she was going the wrong way as well?
while I know it isn't illegal, for me it says a bit about her character.
Ya, what if she was? Why is the guy outside of his car regarding a parking issue?
Self defense is not a valid claim if you provoked the action in ANY way. Even if she drove towards him, he has no valid self defense claim because he got out of her car and approached her over a parking issue.
Furthermore, he admitted he pulled his firearm and pointed it at her. Preponderance of the evidence? Unless the LEO they interviewed is completely fabricating bullshit, then this is pretty cut and dry *regardless of the circumstances*.
Assuming the LEO isn't magically fabricating the interview and admission of guilt, we know for a fact:
1) It was over a parking spot, and both parties wanted it. The woman pulled in first. (not disputed by either party)
2) At some point, the guy STEPPED OUT OF HIS CAR AND APPROACHED HER (he admitted this, and this is not disputed by either party)
3) At some point, the guy PULLED HIS FIREARM AND POINTED IT AT HER (he admitted this)
What happened between 2 and 3 bears absolutely no relevance. I don't care if she was a serial killer brandishing a severed horse head and twisting around like the exorcist. Read Colorado law regarding physical use of force. He had absolutely no justification to pull his firearm. If you walk into a bar and randomly point and shout to someone "I'm going to kick your ass" and they start to approach you, you don't have ANY legal basis for physical use of force.
Instances like this give good permit holders a very bad name.
100% agree, more facts are needed to fine him, but I have no legal implications based on what I say, so I quarterback away! Simply put, based one what they both said, he is a dumb ass. Even if she tried to run him over, he could have avoided this one before it started, easily. Back up two feet, give up the spot. Take your head-rat for a walk. Move on with your life.
Just for fun. Did OJ do it? You weren't there, or in the jury...
So her traveling the wrong direction..they both go to pull into the spot.. she nearly hits him.. He backs up slightly and steps out of his car with his arms up in the WTF gesture.. she pulls forward at him.. Don't tell me none of you have ever done it..
OneGuy67
03-31-2011, 13:55
So her traveling the wrong direction..they both go to pull into the spot.. she nearly hits him.. He backs up slightly and steps out of his car with his arms up in the WTF gesture.. she pulls forward at him.. Don't tell me none of you have ever done it..
I'll tell you I haven't done it. A parking spot isn't something that I would get upset to the point of doing what he did. I would go pick another spot and grumble under my breath about what a bitch she was. That's it. I wouldn't get out of my vehicle, and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
As an aside, her driving towards him isn't reason enough to pull a gun out. Too easy to move to the side and out of the way, thus threat elimination.
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 14:11
I'll tell you I haven't done it. A parking spot isn't something that I would get upset to the point of doing what he did. I would go pick another spot and grumble under my breath about what a bitch she was. That's it. I wouldn't get out of my vehicle, and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
As an aside, her driving towards him isn't reason enough to pull a gun out. Too easy to move to the side and out of the way, thus threat elimination.
X2 and there is no way I would have pulled my weapon. There is not a beeeeatch on this earth that could hit me with their car in a busy King Soopers parking lot. I could evade easily.
I'm not arguing the fact that she was not a bitch. I'd bet a dollar to doughnut hole, that she was, is and always will be a bitch. However big of a bitch she was or still is, he was wrong to pull his weapon. In the time it took to pull his weapon, he could have stepped out of the way of her car.
In a King Soopers parking lot, I would have had a ton of options. Pulling my gun on a woman would not have been one of them.
excellent comment....all that really matters.AS a responsible gun owner/permit holder drawing your weapon should be the last option...this was obviously not his LAST option. What was the lady going to do? run into his car? That sounds like a stupid thing to do, although...bitches be crazy. Like luckydog said, pulling a gun on a defenseless woman in the parking lot of a king soopers doesn't seem like one of the options he should've made. ALSO if he mouthed something to her why would he try to do it discretely? If your life is really in danger and you need to pull your weapon you want the witnesses to be on YOUR side so you'd want them to know what was going on exactly. the guy looks like a dipshit, who was looking for an excuse to pull his gun. just my two cents.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 14:42
What was the lady going to do? run into his car? That sounds like a stupid thing to do, although...bitches be crazy. Like luckydog said, pulling a gun on a defenseless woman in the parking lot of a king soopers doesn't seem like one of the options he should've made. ALSO if he mouthed something to her why would he try to do it discretely?
you obviously have never had a crazy bitch try to run you over and destroy (total) 4 other cars in the attempt.
Im not saying right or wrong or who's lying or telling the truth.
One thing I am noticing is this allot of people are overlooking the fact that this 'Poor defenseless woman" was at the controls of a 2-5 thousand pound battering ram (depending on make/Model and options).
Personally, I cannot wait until someone makes some sort of accusation against one of you so I can sit here and armchair a verdict based on the partial facts spun up by the liberal media.
I am honestly surprised since it was black revolver that they didn't label it an "assault weapon."
Based on the fact that an officer, his supervisor and his supervisors supervisor saw no need for charges that there is more to the story than 9News is letting on.
Lets let the courts do their jobs.
mcantar18c
03-31-2011, 14:46
Based on the fact that an officer, his supervisor and his supervisors supervisor saw no need for charges that there is more to the story than 9News is letting on.
Lets let the courts do their jobs.
^This
you obviously have never had a crazy bitch try to run you over and destroy (total) 4 other cars in the attempt.
Im not saying right or wrong or who's lying or telling the truth.
One thing I am noticing is this allot of people are overlooking the fact that this 'Poor defenseless woman" was at the controls of a 2-5 thousand pound battering ram (depending on make/Model and options).
Personally, I cannot wait until someone makes some sort of accusation against one of you so I can sit here and armchair a verdict based on the partial facts spun up by the liberal media.
I am honestly surprised since it was black revolver that they didn't label it an "assault weapon."
Based on the fact that an officer, his supervisor and his supervisors supervisor saw no need for charges that there is more to the story than 9News is letting on.
Lets let the courts do their jobs.
I've been hit by a crazy bitch driving a car.. I only wish I'd have seen her and been able to shoot her.. I was lucky the asphalt broke my fall. Anyone who thinks it's not a threat.. I invite you to stand in front of my car and take a love tap... need you to sign this first though.
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 15:06
If his first instinct was to grab his weapon, the car wasn't that close. Nature itself would make you get out of the way. If he got out of the way, then there would be no reason to pull his weapon. I'm not buying his reasons for pulling his weapon.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 15:16
If his first instinct was to grab his weapon, the car wasn't that close. Nature itself would make you get out of the way. If he got out of the way, then there would be no reason to pull his weapon. I'm not buying his reasons for pulling his weapon.
So by your own admission then you are not a fight person, but a flight person.
and no because he is this makes him wrong? because if something happens EVERYONE reacts exactly the same. [Bang]
watch the video... its right at about 20' person to person... and about 3-4' bumper to bumper (Granted its a recreation based on HER side of the story)
Kudos for him keeping his mouth shut ... now.
I can only speculate at the advice of counsel.
you obviously have never had a crazy bitch try to run you over and destroy (total) 4 other cars in the attempt.
Im not saying right or wrong or who's lying or telling the truth.
One thing I am noticing is this allot of people are overlooking the fact that this 'Poor defenseless woman" was at the controls of a 2-5 thousand pound battering ram (depending on make/Model and options).
Personally, I cannot wait until someone makes some sort of accusation against one of you so I can sit here and armchair a verdict based on the partial facts spun up by the liberal media.
I am honestly surprised since it was black revolver that they didn't label it an "assault weapon."
Based on the fact that an officer, his supervisor and his supervisors supervisor saw no need for charges that there is more to the story than 9News is letting on.
Lets let the courts do their jobs.
I agree with byte
****admin removal removed by Elhuero****
also, remember the epic beard man video. the black guy that EBM beat up was polite and soft spoken in later interviews, but in the video he acted very differently.
Is that better?
check my sig line
oh, and you're gonna have to share that story about the woman trying to run you over byte
DeusExMachina
03-31-2011, 15:33
I agree with the dropping of charges. Her word isn't good enough. The police investigated it and the news is tweaking the tone and fooled all of you.
Would I have done the same? Hell no.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 15:54
oh, and you're gonna have to share that story about the woman trying to run you over byte
it was a Saturday afternoon. From the lane that runs parallel to the front of the store, I Made a right into a parking lane and took a front spot (Almost completing a U-Turn). Well I Guess the psycho woman (hereafter PW) was making a left into the same lane, and as I Had the right of way I went before her and took the spot PW perceived as "hers". following a barrage of racial slurs and her telling me how I was keeping her people down she tries to fit her dodge van in between the truck (Blue Dodge D-50) and the car I had parked next to (a silver sedan something imported).
She slams it into reverse as I run behind her van and towards the store. She plows two more cars in reverse as I bolt inside telling someone to dial 911.
Of course she flips it that I Cut her off called her all sorts of names and I had a gun or a knife or something. I didn't at the time and following my life being rummaged, the PD came to the same conclusion.
Then when we went to court we got to hear about how it was not her fault that she was on some strong pain killers and anti-depressants " 'cuz her momma died and she has pains in her hips."
Thankfully there were only about a dozen people willing to come forward that saw the reality of it the same way I did.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i410/Guy_Bennett/crash.jpg
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 15:59
So by your own admission then you are not a fight person, but a flight person.
and no because he is this makes him wrong? because if something happens EVERYONE reacts exactly the same. [Bang]
watch the video... its right at about 20' person to person... and about 3-4' bumper to bumper (Granted its a recreation based on HER side of the story)
Kudos for him keeping his mouth shut ... now.
I can only speculate at the advice of counsel.
That's funny. Yes I would run from a woman before I shot her. That's just bordering a retarded statement.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 16:00
That's funny. Yes I would run from a woman before I shot her. That's just bordering a retarded statement.
Nice spin.
would you run from an assailant with a 4 thousand pound weapon?
Lex_Luthor
03-31-2011, 16:03
I'd let her come straight at me and then back flip over her car. ;)
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 16:05
Nice spin.
would you run from an assailant with a 4 thousand pound weapon?
Every single time I could get away. It's not my plan to smoke someone just because I have a CCW. If I can get away, I'll run. Will I fight, you bet but last resort. This was not this guys last resort.
it was a Saturday afternoon....
wow, crazy. thanks for sharing byte.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 16:12
I just think its funny that when faced by liberal spun facts from a known anti gun media outlet all of these "Pro 2-A" people are so fast to suck down the kool-aide and Throw this guy under the bus.
when 3 LEOs saw nothing to pursue. I can only assume the Supervisor and LT are experienced to top that off.
We can sit here and play what if and if it were me.. all day.
We weren't there, We Dont know, Maybe she came charging down the lane at 40MPH and he pulled... we don't know. If he did screw up, that could have been any of us. Don't think for a second you or any of us are not capable of a mistake. And any mistake, Male or Female, Driver of 4K pound weapon or of a G-Lock, has consequences.
I am simply saying that there's more to the story that we aren't hearing.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 16:31
And to add: CRS 18.1.704:1-2
Deadly physical force may be used only if you reasonably believe a lesser degree of force would be inadequate. Additionally, one of the following must be true: (reasonable belief of being killed or great bodily injury)
I'm just saying, regardless of situation, there is no outcome here that allows the use of deadly physical force by "Lindsay" regardless of the details. If there is no outcome that justifies the use of deadly physical force, he should not be drawing a firearm. Do not draw a weapon unless you are ready to use it, and justified in doing so.
The lesson learned here, is if you have a CWP, you need to keep a cool head, and be a more responsible person than the average joe - have the ability to let things go. If a person cannot do this, they really should not be carrying a firearm concealed. You can never be in a position where you are an aggressor, or seen as provoking action.
I Didnt see where he had discharged his weapon.
so, since we are quoting law...
doesn't USE of deadly work require the discharge of the weapon?
otherwise it is threat and may be considered equal if there are skid marks from her vehicle showing she threatened him with the vehicle as stated.
Maybe he got out of the car to ask her why the hell she was going the wrong way? Maybe the whole thing is a CIA Plant story meant to undermine the entire 2a Movement and get us to join the Brady campaign and inform for the BATFE!
AHHHHH PANIC!
or maybe you guys are just so inundated with media you cant see,Cops on scene said no-foul, girly didnt get her way, his statements were taken out of context by her and Media spun up and the best they can do is a municiple code violation?
yeah... somewhere there is a bag FULL of bullshit.
/Done with it
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this whole post start out as you covering our collective asses in case one of the anti-gun people came across this site? I mean, it seems as though people are making a concerted effort to reasonably and logically condemn this dude for his irrational and deplorable actions...
Then again, maybe I'm wrong...
...for once. [Coffee]
Zundfolge
03-31-2011, 17:04
I just think its funny that when faced by liberal spun facts from a known anti gun media outlet all of these "Pro 2-A" people are so fast to suck down the kool-aide and Throw this guy under the bus.
when 3 LEOs saw nothing to pursue. I can only assume the Supervisor and LT are experienced to top that off.
This is why I think her story is probably BS and this guy may very well have been justified in drawing.
Are the Aurora PD known to give gun owners the extreme benefit of the doubt or are they more likely to throw the book at one?
BREATHER
03-31-2011, 17:42
OK, They're both assholes. She at a grocery store buying money orders which means:
1) she's paying for her CCW permit LOL (oh I shouldn't have said that, sarcasm)
2) she doesn't have a checking account which makes her a loser, probably on disability
He is an asshole for;
1) if she did try to run him over, just jump out of the way and after she parks kick the fuck out of her.
2) he is just an asshole. he should have saved his rights for a real emergency.
I am sick and fucking tired of having my rights eroded away because of stupidity. I am a firm believer that most humans are stupid fucks.
the simple fact remains that it should have never come up , true or false , right or wrong . she was not armed (with a gun , yeah yeah car ect) and he should have had the foresight to see and judge the situation as one not needing a firearm . the fact that its even news is the real problem here . Its hard to defend the actions when only one party was armed and no real danger took place . Its not like the story read "man with cwp saves unarmed woman in parking lot " . No matter witch way you spin it, it looks bad and we know that the liberal media needs no reason to go after guns and there owners , so why give them a reason . no matter what it reflects on all gun owners ,cwp or not .
Highway , street , driveway or parking lot , would you really end someones life or risk everything over this?
No matter witch way you slice this cheese it stinks .
just my opinion
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 18:06
When they have no witnesses, it becomes he said she said. And there are charges brought against the man... not the woman.
Also, Re: the deadly force byte.... you fail to see my point. Yes, nobody is killed, no shots are fired.
Why are you drawing a gun if you are not ready and justified in use it?
That is your litmus test in "should you draw". Are you ready, are you justified in using it. Period. There is no situation where its okay to wave a gun around for the sake of waving it around. Note: I don't say you have to use it if you draw it (some instructors claim that), I simply say you must be willing and ready to.
I think we can safely say, No, and No. Would he have shot the lady if she didn't back up? I doubt it, unless hes into the whole manslaughter thing. Would he be justified if he did? Hell no. No and No.
And you're entire basis of argument is from completely theoretical details. Now she left skid marks? Like I said, try to justify it if she stepped out of her car with a bazooka. He still doesn't have a legal claim to justified self defense. (though a 3rd party would)
then you do not justify the right of an aggressor to flee?
Just as a hypothetical that may or may not be relevant here.
An aggressor moves towards to in a manner which will cause death or serious injury... oh lets say speeding at you in a car, or has happened lately, walking at you in an aggressive posture with a large solid piece of sporting equipment.
as I Understand you, you are saying if I See an undeniable threat and I Draw, I am then obligated to kill the threat even should he/she see the fact I am not going down as easily as he/She had initially thought and they Flee or stand down?
Would it not be more responsible to also stand down while maintain a defensive posture.
Just trying to get your perception on this.
BREATHER
03-31-2011, 18:25
The two above entries are why politicians look at us as being morons and they keep cutting jobs and shaving our rights away AND they stay in their jobs
If you are in fear of your life you draw your weapon. For christ sake. Not because you're PMS'esn or having a bad day. There are assholes out there everyday, ya can't kill 'em all.
There is no room for argument. USE YOUR FUCKING COMMON SENSE AND IF YOU CAN'T THEN THEY WILL TAKE YOU GUN AWAY COLD FINGERS OR NOT.
Colorado Luckydog
03-31-2011, 18:45
The two above entries are why politicians look at us as being morons and they keep cutting jobs and shaving our rights away AND they stay in their jobs
If you are in fear of your life you draw your weapon. For christ sake. Not because you're PMS'esn or having a bad day. There are assholes out there everyday, ya can't kill 'em all.
There is no room for argument. USE YOUR FUCKING COMMON SENSE AND IF YOU CAN'T THEN THEY WILL TAKE YOU GUN AWAY COLD FINGERS OR NOT.
Why don't you say what's really on your mind?? LMFAO!! Good post![Beer]
Any other n00bs wanna join the discussion and flame everyone in sight with F-bombs and other assorted adolescent language?
This discussion is a train wreck...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3cib3fK139M/TQh-xdztdjI/AAAAAAAAGHI/f0lav7Wyp3s/s400/Train+wreck+02.JPG
You know damn well that if he just pointed the gun whithout some sort of a good reason this would be a felony menacing charge, no questions asked...
You'd think so, but watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuTC1Jk9h8Q
BREATHER
03-31-2011, 19:13
Only because you think so. I started going to gunshows 45 years ago when I was 12. At one time I would have defended the rights of toothless hilljacks with IQ's lower than their shoe size the right to own firearms to the death. Now I have been forced to rethink my stance. I WILL NOT let my rights be taken away because of a stupid minority. I want to believe that most Americans have a cup full a brains. After a couple of times of putting my life on the line doing my job, I am starting to think that is not the case.
Oh look, no F bombs.
The two above entries are why politicians look at us as being morons and they keep cutting jobs and shaving our rights away AND they stay in their jobs
If you are in fear of your life you draw your weapon. For christ sake. Not because you're PMS'esn or having a bad day. There are assholes out there everyday, ya can't kill 'em all.
There is no room for argument. USE YOUR FUCKING COMMON SENSE AND IF YOU CAN'T THEN THEY WILL TAKE YOU GUN AWAY COLD FINGERS OR NOT.
Do you really you think that what myself and byte said makes us all look like morons ??I thought by actually discussing things like adults (opinions aside) was at least some sign of intelligence . also way to take it to the next level and really bring up our collective intelligence by insulting people , yelling bad English and using foul language .
how about some self F*ck*ng censorship ??? See how easy that was
BREATHER
03-31-2011, 19:28
I said US morons, WE"RE letting them. I didn't call anyone any names, I've heard alot of guys debating alot of things, mostly because they had nothing else better to do. I get tired of the loss of "common sense"
Debating has gotten us our new govna Hink. 1st thing he did was cut jobs. He's anti - gun, and I beleive he owns ghetto bars( I could be wrong about that, I admit) Now he wants to combine Parks and the DOW. That's a cluster waiting to happen. The time for debating is over.
BREATHER
03-31-2011, 19:30
By the way, thanks for pointing out my bad English, you must be a teacher..
you dont draw your weapon unless you intend to use it
you dont aim that muzzle at anything you dont intend to destroy
I said US morons, WE"RE letting them. I didn't call anyone any names, I've heard alot of guys debating alot of things, mostly because they had nothing else better to do. I get tired of the loss of "common sense"
Debating has gotten us our new govna Hink. 1st thing he did was cut jobs. He's anti - gun, and I beleive he owns ghetto bars( I could be wrong about that, I admit) Now he wants to combine Parks and the DOW. That's a cluster waiting to happen. The time for debating is over.
no you did not call anyone by name by you did call out byte and myself by post . So yes i took it a little personal .not necessarily the bigger thing to do but hey im human .
Yes ill agree that there are those that debate for debates sake . My answer is so what , if you dont like it move on .
I cant say much about the governor but i think you should start a new thread about it . As far as ghetto bars are concerned , id like to know what what you mean by that . what makes a bar more ghetto that the next ?is it low income neighborhoods your talking about or is it a lack of plasma tv ??But again thats something for another topic .
and lastly , everybody knows my english stinks , i was just rantin a little , sorry [Tooth]
jerrymrc
03-31-2011, 20:57
I am just going to watch. [Pop] This is fun.
SA Friday
03-31-2011, 21:24
I am just going to watch. [Pop] This is fun.
Wisdom of age. I saw both sides from the first post.
I will comment though, taking a stance that if you are drawing a firearm in defense, you are going to shoot it is foolish. I've pointed loaded weapons at people before. Fortunately for them and me, it's all it took. Sound judgements require flexibility.
SAFriday, did you watch the video I posted? Seems like Felony Menacing with a Deadly Weapon to me, but apparently that guy didn't get any gun related charges.
Byte Stryke
03-31-2011, 21:32
Wisdom of age. I saw both sides from the first post.
I will comment though, taking a stance that if you are drawing a firearm in defense, you are going to shoot it is foolish. I've pointed loaded weapons at people before. Fortunately for them and me, it's all it took. Sound judgements require flexibility.
sonova...
End of the world is coming. Get yer stuff together now.
Me and SA Friday agree.
[ROFL1]
you would be surprised how many bad-asses find humility when faced with reality.
yeah, tired of trying to explain all of this.
[/sidelined] [Pop]
SA Friday
03-31-2011, 21:49
SAFriday, did you watch the video I posted? Seems like Felony Menacing with a Deadly Weapon to me, but apparently that guy didn't get any gun related charges.
No I didn't. Based on the posts it's either not good enough to determine detail or a reproduction. Either way, I would see it as irrelevant.
Although I can see both sides of this issue, I ultimately agree with some others in this thread. Escalating to drawing a gun and threatening someone with their vehicle over a parking spot is just stupid.
If I were him, I doubt I would have drawn. But, the legality of self defense is based on the impression of the person defending themselves. Second guessing his impression for the need to defend himself is difficult in the best of conditions. Prosecuting everyone in this position is bad precidence too. I prefer prosecutors err to the side of the defender myself.
I posted a completely different video. It has nothing to do with this thread and is very short, and pretty clear cut; in my opinion.
And my video is short too.
guess she shouldn't be trying to steal the mans parking spot.
i hate the people that try that shit. definitely not a draw down situation but I would love to watch a gust of wind push a cart into their Achilles heel or dent their car.
Byte Stryke
04-01-2011, 00:03
Are you not reading what people are saying?
FYI, another instance where use of deadly physical force is not authorized:
They are the initial aggressor. But, their use of physical force upon someone else could be justifiable if he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so, but the other person continues or threatens the continued use of unlawful physical force -- CRS 18.1.704:3
Why is it that my posts are backed up by logic and CO State law, while yours are based on new theoretical invented details and emotions, yet you say we have some sort of bias?????
OK Foxtrot... you win.
The Police reports do not say anywhere who the initial aggressor was.
but we will throw about some quotes of CRS makes it all ok.
I didn't really read many of the responses, but I'm on the "I'm not worried about who did/said what, because I don't believe what was reported anyway, but I know that I wouldn't be pulling my gun after getting out of my vehicle to yell at someone" wagon; if there is one.
Once you get out of your vehicle, you are voluntarily entering a situation that you could have easily driven away from. After you get out of your vehicle to go escalate a situation, you are the aggressor and you don't pull your gun. Of the millions of different ways a situation like that can end, there are maybe 1 or 2 that would allow you to legally draw a fire arm. It's pretty simple.
bobbyfairbanks
04-01-2011, 00:26
[Beer][Beer][Beer][Beer][Beer][Beer][Beer][Beer]
No F Bombs congratulations.
This thread has turned into a train wreck. If you where not there you don't and will not know what happened. Stop convicting this guy before he even goes to court. YOU WHERE NOT THERE!
Look No F Bombs either
Only because you think so. I started going to gunshows 45 years ago when I was 12. At one time I would have defended the rights of toothless hilljacks with IQ's lower than their shoe size the right to own firearms to the death. Now I have been forced to rethink my stance. I WILL NOT let my rights be taken away because of a stupid minority. I want to believe that most Americans have a cup full a brains. After a couple of times of putting my life on the line doing my job, I am starting to think that is not the case.
Oh look, no F bombs.
Byte Stryke
04-01-2011, 00:33
I was responding to your theoretical question, where you tried to pretend I was saying kill everybody and you said that your question was probably not even related, and you were asking about if the initial aggressor withdraws. So I quoted the exemption that deals with that exactly. Good lord, what the hell is wrong with you? Bad day at work?
"With intent to cause injury, you provoke the use of unlawful physical force by the other person" -- another exemption in CRS 18.1.704:3 that I've already been over, that DOES apply to this. Being the "initial aggressor" bears no relevance.
Don't step out of your car over road rage. Then have to pull a gun.
Why is anyone who carries a firearm disagreeing with that?
Don't step out of your car over road rage. Then have to pull a gun.
Simple enough concept.....
I REALLY dont see getting out of your car as "provoking"
but I Guess in a world where un-holstering a weapon in preparation of self defense is "use of deadly force."
we can sit here and debate what ifs and quote stuff all night.
facts remain, the whole thing stinks when he wasn't charged with anything until after she ran to the city council and then they couldn't even bring him up on a real charge...Ive seen weaker cases draw a felony menacing in a quick hurry. Instead they got him on a misdemeanor city ordinance, weak.
Which would also explain why the Sheriff wasn't knocking his door down over his CHP.
He was probably laughing too hard at the city council and the lawsuit they will be facing.
Getting out of your car is absolutely provoking; unless you are getting out to apologize.
I'm a little torn with the bar example.
I feel like I might say "A" but start with something like, "My eyes are up here Francis, but..."
I would hate to be a guy who went to prison for attempted manslaughter and have to tell what is sure to be my new boyfriend very soon that I was there because I accidentally discharged my weapon while pulling it on some lady who stole my parking spot. :).
I wasn't there, I don't know the whole story, but if it went down like this it would be a bummer day!
Huh. I was set up to back into a space at King Soopers once, and this a-hole darted around me to get into the space. I just muttered under my breath about his mama and pulled into a different space. Guess I shoulda went off on him, huh? Seems like the thing to do. Nah, not my style.
Then there was the time I was waiting for a space at PetSmart, clearly sitting there waiting for this car to back out. As I started forward into the space, this car with two teenagers came around the building. A few minutes later in the store, this kid came up to me whining about how HE was going to take that space.
I just laughed at him, felt good too. Big, strapping teenager, probably a football player, really needed that space by the front door worse than a fat old man with two bad knees and an obvious limp. Irregardless of the fact I was sitting there waiting for it.
And has anybody else noticed how most people seem to think that all normal rules of driving and etiquette don't apply in parking lots and garages? My parking garage has a solid yellow line down the middle, and I swear I'm the only one that stays on the right side of it. People act like it's just an unsightly decoration. Not to mention the clowns that just gotta drive like hell in the garage. Nah, there ain't no other cars or pedestrians in there......
I've stayed out of this for the most part, but my philosophy is that the carriage of a firearm places a higher standard on one. This is true whether one is a LEO or a private citizen. A higher level of restraint is called for.
Byte Stryke
04-01-2011, 19:16
And has anybody else noticed how most people seem to think that all normal rules of driving and etiquette don't apply in parking lots and garages?
If it is on private property, sadly They don't.
Cop cannot even give you a ticket from operating a motor vehicle without a license on the wrong side of your yellow line.
Just like the woman in the OP was not cited for driving the wrong way down a one way...
They are all suggestions.
If it is on private property, sadly They don't.
Cop cannot even give you a ticket from operating a motor vehicle without a license on the wrong side of your yellow line.
Just like the woman in the OP was not cited for driving the wrong way down a one way...
They are all suggestions.
It may be true that the cops won't write you a ticket (they still can, they just won't), but it doesn't mean that the rules don't apply. There is still a very clear right of way in pretty much every place that a motor vehicle can be driven in the United States. If there is an accident, your claims adjuster will reference those rules and argue on your behalf.
OneGuy67
04-01-2011, 21:31
If it is on private property, sadly They don't.
Cop cannot even give you a ticket from operating a motor vehicle without a license on the wrong side of your yellow line.
Just like the woman in the OP was not cited for driving the wrong way down a one way...
They are all suggestions.
Certain traffic laws can be enforced on private property if the municipality is a home rule city. Things like careless driving, unsafe backing, running stop signs, etc. Usually related to accidents and accident investigation. You aren't going to see the local PD running radar in a parking lot.
I got hit by a car in a parking lot, when I reported it the CSPD officer acted like I was wasting his time.
SA Friday
04-01-2011, 21:58
I got hit by a car in a parking lot, when I reported it the CSPD officer acted like I was wasting his time.
Don't know what to ask first; what did you do/say to get the driver mad enough to run you over, or what did you do/say to the cop to get him to not give a crap you got ran over? [Coffee]
Colorado Luckydog
04-01-2011, 23:21
Don't know what to ask first; what did you do/say to get the driver mad enough to run you over, or what did you do/say to the cop to get him to not give a crap you got ran over? [Coffee]
X2
I had to go with the "X2" thing. I couldn't type anything else without laughing my ass off.![ROFL1][ROFL3][ROFL2][ROFL1]
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