Any Idea's how this blew in half?

[Mobat555]

We were shooting trap yesterday at TSSC and about the 3rd round out of the box just exploded bowing my FIL's gun in half. It was a reload, the barrel was clear, nothing came out the front.

Full gun
http://i.imgur.com/dRMWV.jpg


The Chamber/Barrel end
http://i.imgur.com/GOuZt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CTsLW.jpg

Receiver
http://i.imgur.com/n6KNC.jpg


The Hull
http://i.imgur.com/HPUnB.jpg

[sandman76]

Wow. I'm glad I wasn't holding that.

Barrel obstruction or possibly a double charge in the reload would be the likely culprit. Standard pressure trap load should never do that to a shotgun. Where did the base of the shell go?

I don't know how but scary as hell. Hope he wasn't hurt.

[SA Friday]

Double charge.

[spleify]

Wow, that is scary. I sure hope no one was hurt

[ldmaster]

barrel didn't. I'd point to metalurgy primarily. SOMETHING had to come out of the barrel.

It's not hard to do a double charge in a reload, but it is pretty difficult. 17gr of powder is a significant bulk, then the wad then the shot. SHOULD have spilled some shot out, or been very very difficult to crimp. Wads don't compress well. But if doubled, the load itself would have been compressed tightly and given a greater pressure spike enough to damage a gun.

But just looking at the chamber as the failure point, without barrel involvement from the photos shown, I'd say defective metalurgy. There is this gigantic hole that would have vented a double load (12ga) pretty effectively.

I'm guessing this is one of those cheaper imported O/U's - you get what you pay for.

Ouch!

[Mobat555]

Wow, that is scary. I sure hope no one was hurt

No one was hurt luckily, he was on the far right station when it went.

[Mobat555]

I'm guessing this is one of those cheaper imported O/U's - you get what you pay for.

Ouch!

Webly & Scott

[JohnTRourke]

double charge almost certainly.

or wrong powder.

sorry, if it was a factory load I think we could blame metallurgy, but with a reload, it's probably at fault. (ocram's razor and all that)

[kwando]

Wow!!!

[gcrookston]

barrel didn't. I'd point to metalurgy primarily. SOMETHING had to come out of the barrel.

I'm guessing this is one of those cheaper imported O/U's - you get what you pay for.

Ouch!


That's a newer 900 series Webley & Scott. All those guns go through the Birmingham Proof house (although they may be manufactured elsewhere in Europe). The Receiver is also CNC machined from Chrome-Moly... Quality control is tight.

Although not exactly a high-end gun, they are far from the bottom and would compare to the Beretta 682 for cost / quality.

Which brings us back around to the ammo (double charge or wrong powder), or a barrel obstruction.

[ldmaster]

Webley and Scott went out of the firearms business in 1979. Only did airguns up until 2005. In 2005 they went out of business, their asset were purchased and the company became "Webley".

It's currently listed as "in liquidation" meaning bankrupt.

The website can say all it want about "proofing" and the like, but I severely doubt that after NOT manufacturing something for almost 20 years they came up with a magical design and had the tooling and machinery to start manufacturing firearms IN their facility.

Capitalizing on the Webley name is what it seems to be. They haven't filed corporate paperwork since 2008. So whatever they 'produced' for those few years couldn't have had much workmanship in the sense we're thinking. I'm thinking Chinese manufacture to "spec", or somewhere else. wouldn't be the first time a company tried to capitalize on a name, without the concomitant investment.

Anybody remember "Brolin Arms"??? Stood for "Brother's Lin" and it was a chinese company. They made a 1911 that was in a few magazines at the time. Webley and Scott is a fine OLD name and my "wobbly" revolver is a treasure to me, but they're not the same company at all. That being said, it's EASY to say "proofed in our Birmingham facility" but notice they don't say "built" there. Sorta weird too, that they don't have much in the way of gun lore on their web page - almost like they're not really gun folks anymore. But face it, NOBODY in England is gun saavy anymore since their total ban. The profession of gunsmith is all but dead.

I'll bet, though, that he's glad it didn't blow out on the left side of the chamber - where his face was - God was watching!

It would be instructive to have a metallurgist examine the barrels, and come up with composition and hardness/softness. Barrel making is an ART and it takes years of practice to get it right, just making something out of a steel that everyone thinks is a good barrel steel doesn't make it sturdy. I'm just fascinated that the chamber blew without even splitting the barrel.

here is an interesting posting about headspace and the like...

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21710

[gcrookston]

Webley and Scott went out of the firearms business in 1979. Only did airguns up until 2005. In 2005 they went out of business, their asset were purchased and the company became "Webley".

It's currently listed as "in liquidation" meaning bankrupt.

In 1985 it was purchased by Holland and Holland. The 900k series was refined under their reign but not put into production. W&S had provided base guns to H&H for decades. In 2006 it was sold to Ags, who operate it to this day. Although I believe they manufacture the pellet gun lines of W&S in England, the shotgun lines are out sourced much like the agreements Browning and others have with various manufacturers.

I recall Shooting Times reviewed the 900k when it was introduced in 2007 or 2008 at a trade event in Europe and the components were being manufactured in Belgium and Turkey at that time and completed guns were being proofed through Birmingham (The Birmingham Proof House is the only establishment in England that proofs and strict compliances and proofing tests set the standards by which all others follow).

In late 2008 - early 2009 a group of investors was exploring the possibility of becoming the sole importer of the W&S line and we got to spend some time examining and enjoying examples of these fine guns. The entry level Grade 1 (which I believe is the gun in question), would have been priced retail around $1,600.00, graduating up to the 2000 series fully optioned at about $6,000.00+. However, as the recession deepened our funding dried up and the interest dissolved.

Currently I know of no importers or US distribution rights so I'm going to guess the gun came down out of Canada or from Europe with a returning service man.

[ldmaster]

to figure out how it got in the country, a blind man could see the marking

"Sporting Products LLC, Palm Beach, Florida" on the barrel.

I'd be looking for the actual proof marks though - looking at the law that specifies proofing pressures, that barrel (if actually proofed) shouldn't have failed.

Also gotta wonder why it has any bearing that Holland and Holland bought W&S and refined the 900, but never put it in production... Sounds like they just bought the rights, but never produced a gun - which is sorta the point, NOBODY made W&S guns until sold to AGS in 2006.

[SA Friday]

Even if the metal was iffy, I suspect it wasn't the first round ever fired out of it. Bad metal and a regular round, I suspect you wouldn't see such a catastrophic failure. This has all the ear marks of a heavy/double charge of powder or the wrong powder. The chamber literally had no chance of survival based on the pics of the aftermath. Looks just like when a revolver goes kaboom from a double charge.

[Hoser]

I would bet a paycheck on a double charge.

[Mobat555]

Forgot to include this pic originally, but you can see the crimped end barely opened up. Giving me odd feelings about path of least resistance.


http://i.imgur.com/gAOpM.jpg

[sandman76]

The final crimp on that shell does not look right. I've reloaded thousands of Rem. STS. My personal favorite. A crimp like that would have ended up in my disassembly bucket. Reloaders need to be very picky about what they shoot.

Not easy to actually get a crimp on a double charge. I've tried it on purpose to see what it would look like. It can be mashed down if you try hard though. Creates a compressed load=extra pressure.

Do you know what happened to the base of the shotshell?

[Mobat555]

Do you know what happened to the base of the shotshell?

We looked everywhere and couldn't find it. So you think the crimping could have cause part of the problem?

[sandman76]

Probably not the crimp itself. It's just the best indicator of a properly reloaded shotshell. My goal is to make them look like they came out of a new box. Not the easiest thing to do. It takes practice and a lot of trial and error.

Knowing the average weight of a complete reloaded shotshell is a good thing. I loaded a couple hundred where my powder drop wasn't opening all the way part of the time (better than overloaded but still not good) and used the scale to see if they were under weight.

Any suspects were disassembled.

[2008f450]

I have 2 questions. 1 was anyone else shooting the stage with him? 2. what was everyone else shooting. I have heard of a 20ga 12 ga load doing that. if he accidently dropped a 20 in then not knowingly dropped a 12ga behind it. If he was alone and everyone else shooting 12ga , i would say double charge. I have seen pistols destroyed with doubke charges. scary thing to see and hear.

[Mobat555]

I have 2 questions. 1 was anyone else shooting the stage with him? 2. what was everyone else shooting.

1. There were 4 of us
2. All 12 Gauge Remington STS

[Molon_Labe-1775]

Double charge.



Or wrong powder. Probably a double charge

[spittoon]

Or wrong powder. Probably a double charge a double charge would be hard to miss ..... wrong powder why only one shell?? how about a little lead shot mixed with the power i seen a bt99 come a part at the old golden gun club. he said he was having problems loading that day"" missed the wad and dumped the powder in the tube ""did not get all of the lead out>>

[SA Friday]

Forgot to include this pic originally, but you can see the crimped end barely opened up. Giving me odd feelings about path of least resistance.

On a kaboom, the path of least resistance is going to be where the chamber separates. If you look at the side of the shell, you can clearly see the shell split in a line directly where the chamber failed. As soon as the chamber stopped controlling the expanding gasses, the gasses worked out of the fault in the chamber and outward until expended. I'm not surprised at all that the crimp in the shell was still there.

[cofi]

not trolling here but what is the point of reloading shotgun shells???im buying sleeves of 100 at walmart for like 20 bucks

[Mobat555]

100 for $20 of the bottom shelf rounds, where as reloading you can achieve the same quality of round as the $8 a box for around $5.50.

At least that is what I am told.

[rondog]

not trolling here but what is the point of reloading shotgun shells???im buying sleeves of 100 at walmart for like 20 bucks

Because reloading is fun and another satisfying aspect of the shooting sports.

And I'd have to suspect the possibility of a 20ga. shell being accidently dropped in the barrel first. It happens, and you won't see it in there when you put the 12 in behind it. Did anybody look inside the barrel for one?

[Mobat555]

Yea, in the pics was everything we found. He only reloads 12 gauge and all of our group on shoots 12 gauge so it seems unlikely to me he would have one in his vicinity.

The gun is actually now on display at the TSSC club house, they mounted it on a board for the safety class. Actually looks pretty neat.