View Full Version : Open Carry Resistance in the Springs
TheBelly
05-29-2011, 23:17
All,
Yesterday I was OC in the Springs. I was informed by the manager on duty at the Buffalo Wild Wings that I went to that the carrying of firearms wasn't allowed.
I asked the manager if he had security to provide for my protection. The response was no.
I asked the manager if it was against corporate policy, or just his personal policy. He said that it was not against corporate policy.
I then informed the manager that I would not remove my firearm because I do not have a place where I feel comfortable storing it until I was done eating. I also informed the manager that by removing it, I believed that I'd been committing the felony of brandishing (I would have had to take it out of the holster to clear it), and that by asking me to remove it he was personally denying my 2nd amendment right.
I made sure that I pulled him aside so that he and I could have a quiet, fairly private conversation. My wife, and the assistant manager were the only other ones that heard.
Where are the holes, where did I commit any errors, and what can I do differently/better next time?
If he asked you to leave, you should have left. Otherwise, nothing wrong with voicing your feelings. It's his place though.
DeusExMachina
05-30-2011, 00:45
You could have been charged with trespassing.
DD977GM2
05-30-2011, 00:48
You seem to have conducted yourself fine and asked all the right questions in a way that doesnt make gun owners seem like psychos. I think you did just fine. The only thing I would be careful of is if an owner of any business outright asks you to leave.....do so without arguement so you dont get in trouble with the law.
Did the manager ask you to leave when you refused to take your pistol off and put it in your car or where ever?
I also would have mentioned you will in the future protest with your wallet for his personal beliefs on firearms and not being company policy and that you would take your business elsewhere. Was it his personal firearms beliefs? My understanding was it was from your post.
I hope you did some good if you ended up finishing your meal and that the douche will not make an example out of a future patron who is OC while they have some hot wings.
Doesn't sound like you went off the handle. But I'd also agree with leaving and then following up with either if he comes out, or in after the fact inquiries and a letter to corporate. That kind of thing is how some places have been pushed into following local laws when some manager takes things into their own hands.
As long as he was in one way or another saying that you needed to leave, whether civil or not it's opening yourself up to someone making the call and getting the trespass ticket.
Byte Stryke
05-30-2011, 06:06
Agreed, Sounds like you played it well.
BUT keep in mind, as others have said if the Manager or any employee or representative of the owner/leaser of the property asks you to leave and you dont, its time in the clink for criminal trespass.
I would like to bring up a question on this.
I thought it was law that it must be posted on the doors of Businesses.
Is this not the case?
colocowboy01
05-30-2011, 07:36
Not trying to be "nit-picky" but TheBelly has not stated that he was asked to leave the property by the manager, just that he could not carry a firearm there. I know I am just splitting hairs here, but are you trespassing if you have not been asked to leave? It would be the logical assumption that TheBelly was in fact asked by the manager to leave but just did not state that fact in his post. If in fact TheBelly was asked to leave then I agree that he should have done so while politely asking his questions and telling the manager that he had lost not only this customer but many more whom he would be telling about this situation.
I think he asked great questions of the manager and in such a way that was respectful.[Beer]
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 07:52
The manager never asked me to leave. He simply stated that he does not allow firearms into his business because of all the Army guys that frequent the bar area.
There are no signs anywhere saying that carrying is not allowed.
It was about 1 PM when my wife and I were there. I think there were a total of 15 customers there, total.
We were sitting in the restaurant/eating area, not the bar area. The hostess offered the bar area, and I said that I was more comfortable sitting in the restaurant area. I don't ever refer to any carry firearm in any way shape or form.
Again, not once did he ask me to leave.
Bailey Guns
05-30-2011, 08:52
FYI: A private person or business entity can't violate or deny you your 2nd Amendment rights.
It also makes no difference whether it's the manager's personal policy or corporate policy. If someone in control of private property tells you to leave (which no one did...just saying) or that firearms are not allowed (which basically implies you need to remove the firearm from the premises) you are obligated to remove the firearm (ie: place it in your car, for example) or remove yourself with the firearm, or risk intervention from the po-po for trespassing.
You can also safely remove a firearm from your person, while holstered. I think you were really stretching on the "brandishing" (which doesn't exist in Colorado...it's called menacing) part.
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 08:56
You can also safely remove a firearm from your person, while holstered. I think you were really stretching on the "brandishing" (which doesn't exist in Colorado...it's called menacing) part.
how would I unload and clear a firearm without removing it from the holster?
whether it's called brandishing or menacing or what-have-you, doesn't it all have the same consequence?
My intention is not to try and get defensive, I just want others' points of view...
Bailey Guns
05-30-2011, 09:41
That's the purpose of a holster...to protect the firearm. Leave it in the holster, secure it somewhere and there's no need to clear it. People do this all the time while carrying concealed for purposes of leaving the gun in a car, going to the bathroom, etc.... Cops do it every day, too, when they need to take care of business. This is all assuming you have a proper holster that secures the gun.
You asked for opinions, I gave you one. Nobody's getting defensive.
18-3-206 Menacing
(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.
The other potential offense would be Prohibited Use of a Weapon. That applies if you unlawfully aim a firearm at another person. Also a misdemeanor. For the menacing offense, you'd have to knowingly try to put someone in fear of serious injury. If you go to your car and discreetly remove the gun (preferably in the holster, IMO) it would be pretty hard to make a case for either offense.
Of course, stranger things have happened.
ChadAmberg
05-30-2011, 09:46
Buffalo Wild Wings restaurants are known for not allowing firearms on the premises.
Here's what they sent to someone who complained:
“Buffalo Wild Wings respects the right of individuals to carry firearms but we do not believe they are appropriate inside of a public restaurant. We are focused on the comfort, safety and enjoyment of all of our guests and have elected to exercise our right to restrict the carrying of firearms in our restaurants. We regret any inconvenience this may cause but believe that this policy is in the best interest of all of our guests and our Team Members.”
Byte Stryke
05-30-2011, 10:22
Gun Free zone anyone?
[LOL]
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i410/Guy_Bennett/No_Weapons_Allowed.gif
Bailey Guns
05-30-2011, 10:53
^^ No shit. I think I'll avoid BWW in the future. They obviously have enough customers to make their business work.
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 12:01
I'm definitely going to avoid BWW in the future as well.
no guns = no money
I still won't leave a loaded firearm anywhere but within my immediate vicinity, holster or no.....
I agree with the sign, Byte.
I don't OC, but I've managed to fatten myself up quite well without ever having set foot in a BWW, thankyouverymuch. Don't see any reason to start now.
Willy's wings in Morrison is better any way
USMC88-93
05-30-2011, 12:40
Personally he is the ultimate say as to what goes on in his establishment and you could have complied with his wishes by leaving. It would seem to me you have experience with places that have not had issues with it as well.
[Rant on] I gotta' admit to being personally troubled every time an issue like this comes up. While I am zealous for the 2nd amendment, and always carry myself, I have real problems with people who open carry. Let me just say that this is my own thoughtful opinion, formed after many years of carrying and paying close attention to the political and social issues involved, and nothing else and so I am ready to be flamed for it.
Here are my problems. First, I admit that if I am sitting in a restaurant with my family and some dude walks in open carrying, I immediately begin to feel uncomfortable...even though I am carrying myself (concealed). Why would I be suspicious and uncomfortable with another gun owner? Because it just seems like wayyyy too often, people who open carry are the kind of people who need to feel big and important and feared and are extremely needy for attention. And the very prominent and visible gun is their way of accomplishing all of that and getting their own personal needs met. And I worry about people like that, weak and insecure people in many cases, having guns to readily flash around...and to use. If you told me, while I was sitting at the restaurant, that 20 other guys in the place were carrying concealed it wouldn't bother me a bit. But one guy strutting in with his gun flashing on his hip and I go to condition high alert....
Second, because open carrying is so much more likely to provoke an incident of some type or another, whether with management, customers, or police. Why run around provoking people and incidents? What is it in a gun owner which would make him want to provoke bad feelings and confrontations in public over guns? This is a war which is already lost in the U.S. No one is going to "educate" the public by wearing a gun openly, they are only going to alienate the public. Why do that?
Third, because this guy has taken it upon himself to represent me and all other gun carriers without my permission. Everything he does will be watched, analyzed, and criticized by everyone within sight. When he provokes a confrontation (as he surely will even if his behavior is very modest and absolutely righteous) his every move and every word during that confrontation will be further scrutinized and attacked. As a gun owner, as a member of a class which is under tremendous disapproval and prejudice in society already, I don't want you representing me out there by open carrying. I don't want your stupidity, your drunkenness, or even your innocent mistakes or words said unwisely in the heat of the moment, to tar and feather me and all our colleagues who love and promote the 2nd amendment. You don't have my permission to represent me by open carrying! So when I hear (as is almost inevitable) that someone open carrying has had another incident, I shudder and then shake my head...and wait for the fall-out to happen. More prohibitions. More laws. More disapproval of the 2nd amendment. Why is it so hard to throw a shirt tail over your gun?
Alright, rant over. I am ready to get pounded! [Stooge]
Third, because this guy has taken it upon himself to represent me and all other gun carriers without my permission....You don't have my permission to represent me by open carrying!
Please post your phone #, and I will be sure to call you for permission each time I am about to go out whilst open carrying.
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 17:12
soco11,
I understand your thoughts, and I can certainly understand your position in the matter.
I choose to open carry. When I do so, I don't think of myself as representing anyone else's interests but my own.
However, as someone that carries a firearm for defensive purposes, I don't get the luxury of ranting, emotional or not. Part of responsible gun-carrying, I feel, is that I hold myself to a higher standard of conduct.
Obviously, you won't have to worry about me giving my money/business (carrying or no) to any BWW in the future. That may be a safe place for you to get your grub on. :-p
jerrymrc
05-30-2011, 17:28
Can I ask if this is the one on the very south end of Academy next to Safeway?
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 17:49
Closer to World Arena.
Dusty Johnson
05-30-2011, 17:50
Closer to World Arena.
Why do you OC? I am just curious. :)
TheBelly
05-30-2011, 17:57
Dusty,
I have yet to find an IWB holster for that particular firearm. Additionally, it was a little too warm (for my comfort level) to have an over-garment on.
trout_champ
05-30-2011, 19:10
I have heard of others being asked to leave from the BWW by the World Arena because they were open carrying. I’ve never had a problem, but I always CC. I had no idea that BWW was so against firearms and I won’t be stopping there for wings anytime soon.
Randy
Gcompact30
05-30-2011, 19:26
http://www.havegunwilltraincolorado.com/brandishing-in-colorado/ This was a pretty interesting read, take a look.
All,
Yesterday I was OC in the Springs. I was informed by the manager on duty at the Buffalo Wild Wings that I went to that the carrying of firearms wasn't allowed.
I asked the manager if he had security to provide for my protection. The response was no.
I asked the manager if it was against corporate policy, or just his personal policy. He said that it was not against corporate policy.
I then informed the manager that I would not remove my firearm because I do not have a place where I feel comfortable storing it until I was done eating. I also informed the manager that by removing it, I believed that I'd been committing the felony of brandishing (I would have had to take it out of the holster to clear it), and that by asking me to remove it he was personally denying my 2nd amendment right.
I made sure that I pulled him aside so that he and I could have a quiet, fairly private conversation. My wife, and the assistant manager were the only other ones that heard.
Where are the holes, where did I commit any errors, and what can I do differently/better next time?
Pretty much every national business is opposed to openly carried guns in their place of business. Actually, pretty much every business is opposed to openly carried guns.
argonstrom
05-30-2011, 20:38
Pretty much every national business is opposed to openly carried guns in their place of business. Actually, pretty much every business is opposed to openly carried guns.
Not mine. :)
However, I can offer the training and cert. to not have to open carry... :)
Pretty much every national business is opposed to openly carried guns in their place of business. Actually, pretty much every business is opposed to openly carried guns.
Many small businesses (like...er...mine) could not care less if you are armed, concealed or not. I'm about 600 times more likely to object if you come into my shop smelling like an ashtray or a bong. If I happen to notice you are carrying, I might sit and BS with you about guns for a few minutes...[Beer].
One of my best customers is a Range Safety Officer for the local IDPA, and we chat about guns all the time.
For those who don't know, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (Rmgo.net and I believe a partner site of this one) has a whole seciton dedicated to educating us on businesses that restrict/ban firearms. The link is here http://www.rmgo.org/banning-businesses and I would like to have this reported and listed on this site. It's a great resource when deciding where to spend my money (or not to in this case).
You are a gun guy though, so it doesn't count.
Byte Stryke
05-30-2011, 22:00
I have always said... it is not the guy wearing a sidearm on his side in plain view you need to worry about. Its the Punk that has a pistol shoved down his saggy pants.
The criminals don't OC.
They dont spend money on Nice IWB Holsters or even OWB ones...
And they give a fuck less about signs, laws and gun free zones.
And soco.. If you have observed someone in possession of a firearm while intoxicated and you didn't notify every agency within jurisdiction, you are a bigger idiot than the ones you are hating on and probably complicit to a felony after the fact.
And who the hell made you master decision maker?
Every law abiding citizen has the 2nd, I don't give a shit if he has a Larry the cable guy T shirt with No sleeves, wears a Bubba-Gump hat and never graduated the 9th grade; unless you are a duly appointed judge, you dont get to choose.
Your defeatist and liberal attitude is what is costing us the fight, not responsible gun owners OCing. Ideology like yours is why OC is illegal in many municipalities making the 2d amendment a "pay as you go" privilege instead of a right.
I fought for everyone's constitutional rights, It's kind of the point.
Yes, even your right to get on here and spout your beliefs, no matter how ignorant they may be.
I think we all need to realize that the Bill of Rights does not protect us from private property owners. It is only there to say what the government can NOT do to us.
You have no freedom of speech in or on my property
You have no 2nd amendment right in or on my property
You have no religious freedom in or on my property
Etc, etc, etc.
You only have those rights on my property if I grant those to you.
Its better to CC on private property and eliminate all potential problems and confrontations.
I have always said... it is not the guy wearing a sidearm on his side in plain view you need to worry about. Its the Punk that has a pistol shoved down his saggy pants.
The criminals don't OC.
They dont spend money on Nice IWB Holsters or even OWB ones...
And they give a fuck less about signs, laws and gun free zones.
And soco.. If you have observed someone in possession of a firearm while intoxicated and you didn't notify every agency within jurisdiction, you are a bigger idiot than the ones you are hating on and probably complicit to a felony after the fact.
I fought for everyone's constitutional rights, It's kind of the point.
Hence when people say "I always have my firearm in easy reach," I say I don't always because I usually leave it in the car when I go to a concert, bar, or any public place where it could get me into more hot water than I'd like. But funny that theBelly tells this, I've been to BWW many times while CC and now I look back and laugh that they're so anti-carry, if they only knew [Twist]
And Byte, I can't agree with you more, I too fought for peoples rights to do/say what they please as outlined by the founders of this great nation.
I'm just glad I haven't had to calmly explain to an aggressor that I'm armed and then turn around and have to defend myself to LE instead of get charged with menacing. I have, though, a few times place my shooting hand thumb at the bottom of my shirt ready to pull it up and draw my weapon on several occasions whenever someone made me feel even slightly like there was a hint of danger... thanks PTSD.
colocowboy01
05-31-2011, 23:12
Third, because this guy has taken it upon himself to represent me and all other gun carriers without my permission.
soco11, I plan on taking several weapons in the truck with me to work in the morning (like usual). Should I send an email directly to you of how many and which kinds of weapons for your permission and prior approval or should I post here which ones I am planning to take for the day? Usually it ranges between 2-4 pistols, 2-3 rifles, and a shotgun or two(depending on hunting season). Also, are there certain calibers that I am not supposed to take along with me without a written note pinned to my coat from you? And, I tend to have SEVERAL magazines and extra ammo for each firearm, do I need special permission from you for these also? PLEASE HELP ME HELP YOU!
[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL][ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL][ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL] __________________
I'm not intending for people to flame, but when Soco says that he sees a person open carry and it tends to make people nervous, I agree... but that's where the only point I agree with. I see people open carry all the time and I just think to myself 'I feel a certain % safer knowing I'll probably have backup if the s*** hits the fan.' However, other people, those "sheeple" if you will, or what I like to call liberals/hippies/morons- take your pick- will become anxious if they see a gun and no badge. It's not really going to start confrontation, more likely it'll avoid and deescalate potential situations, but when dumb masses get nervous that's when bad things can happen. Now, I feel just fine with theBelly representing a collective of safe, logical, and rational gun owners; I feel like anyone who open carries, knowing full well how some could react but choosing to do so anyway, has to be somewhat educated and informed on how to conduct him/herself. This isn't the wild west where you can just run around like a vagrant shooting someone because they disrespected you, or challenging folks to duels. But, instead we're a society where 911 is only as good as their response time (and with the steady increase in population that time is only getting worse), and a armed citizen who refuses to be a victim will only have to explain themselves to the police instead of always relying on them. I carry because it's my right to feel safe and not become a victim of some hoodlum out to acquire things by less than legitimate means.
funkfool
06-01-2011, 10:18
Closer to World Arena.
Ahh.. the new one - that is near me...
Guess I'll have to pop in on occasion and drop off one of these every time:
(I know this pertains to concealed carry... but I assume his statement of "the carrying of firearms wasn't allowed" - covers concealed as well)
http://www.rmgo.org/images/stories/merchantcard.jpg
Except I will change the "sign" to "policy" and thank them for their time.
I'll carry concealed...
Ahh.. the new one - that is near me...
Guess I'll have to pop in on occasion and drop off one of these every time:
(I know this pertains to concealed carry... but I assume his statement of "the carrying of firearms wasn't allowed" - covers concealed as well)
Except I will change the "sign" to "policy" and thank them for their time.
I'll carry concealed...
That list says that Colorado Mills is on the "cheater" list, I can't remember the last time I saw a sign there that said no carrying, and I never go there unless I'm carrying (concealed of course), but it just seems like a few of those places may have a policy against carrying, but I haven't noticed. I just use the legal terminology when it comes to carrying- If it's not a government, educational or metal detector controlled facility and there's no sign, I carry.
youngmedic
06-09-2011, 22:58
Where can I get one of those "no guns, no money" flyers?
Geology Rocks
06-21-2011, 23:09
I have carried in a place that is listed on that rmgo as posted no carry. I search all the doors and didnt see one single sign..hrmmm
oh and no bww for me.
joe
Ak47Ar15Glock26
06-21-2011, 23:11
Thank you for posting this. I go there often (carry concealed of course) but ill spend my cash elsewhere from now on
Ak47Ar15Glock26
06-21-2011, 23:26
Where can I get one of those "no guns, no money" flyers?
Rmgo website. They sent me free ones I put on my jeep.
That list says that Colorado Mills is on the "cheater" list, I can't remember the last time I saw a sign there that said no carrying, and I never go there unless I'm carrying (concealed of course), but it just seems like a few of those places may have a policy against carrying, but I haven't noticed. I just use the legal terminology when it comes to carrying- If it's not a government, educational or metal detector controlled facility and there's no sign, I carry.
This is pretty much my attitude. If it's not illegal to carry there, then I carry there. Concealed is concealed. If they don't know I'm packing, then they have no reason to ask me to leave. If they do, then I leave and tell them I will no longer frequent their establishment until they change their policy.
Chad4000
06-24-2011, 00:56
I just think it's funny that all these businesses make it such a big deal. Perfectly legal.. No need fort managers and shit. Kinda dumb
I just think it's funny that all these businesses make it such a big deal. Perfectly legal.. No need fort managers and shit. Kinda dumb
Very true... besides why are they worrying about the legal gun owners who respect the law. Over 50 Million legal gun owners in the US and not one of them has committed a crime this year. Why worry? It's those thugs you have to watch out for who buy guns out of the trunk of some homie's car.
mcantar18c
06-24-2011, 17:20
I went to Buffalo Wild Wings with a buddy last night... made sure I had both my primary and my BUG [Coffee] (CC of course)
soco11,
Well, you won't be getting a "pounding" from me. In fact, I couldn't agree more. Open carry in public, albeit "legal", doesn't necessarily promote good common sense in my book. In this particular case, he did handle himself in a polite, professional manner - however; he never would've had to engage the retaraunt manager in ANY conversation had he been carrying concealed.
On another note...OC immediately tells the "bad guy" you are his first target. When I'm out with my family, the last thing I want to be is a bullet magnet. If I am forced to engage a threat with lethal force, I don't want the bad guy knowing I'm armed until my rounds are headed his/her way.
Now, some of my close friends have said the way I dress (khaki 5:11 cargo pants, Glock polo shirt, contractor hat) suggest I'm carrying a firearm. Maybe it does...but I'm still leaving it open for interpretation because I'm not showing it off to the world. Conceal-carry permits are not hard to obtain in Colorado, so I don't really see the need for OC. Outside of the firing range, I've never encountered someone out in the public with their firearm in plain sight, but I can agree that if I did...it would probably force me to keep one eye his/her way, just because that's the way I am. [Beer]
Very true... besides why are they worrying about the legal gun owners who respect the law. Over 50 Million legal gun owners in the US and not one of them has committed a crime this year. Why worry? It's those thugs you have to watch out for who buy guns out of the trunk of some homie's car.
Say man, I've bought a LOT of guns out car trunks from homies on this board! One of my favorite places to shop!
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