Question for the Conceal Permit holders

[Tweety Bird]

We're doing a 4-day defensive handgun class at Front Sight Nevada, and just finished day 3. One of the range instructors posed a scenario that I'd never thought about, and thought I'd toss it into the mix here.

Here it is:

You're at a crowded mall/theater/supermarket/name-your-place. Some nutjob walks in with a rifle and starts shooting randomly at others. You're in a position to take him out with the Glock you carry on your side, so you take the shot, put the bad guy down and all is well, right?

What about the other Conceal Permit holders in the area? If they saw the whole thing, they become witnesses. But what if they came in late and all they saw was YOU doing the shooting. What are you going to do to convince the others around you who are carrying, that you're the GOOD guy?

And to carry it a step further: What if the shooter had only shot one person, and that person he shot was THE BAD GUY? IOW, you got there late, didn't see the opening scenes, and now you either have or are going to shoot someone who doesn't deserve it?

Point is, we who carry don't wear a uniform or a badge, and it might be difficult for others in the crowd to decide whether you're the good guy (you just shot the bad guy), or if you're a good guy who just shot another good guy who had just shot a bad guy.

They present a lot of different things like that out here. If any of you get a chance to take one of their courses, you should do it. This is our second time and both times, they've presented things like this which really get my mind in a whirl.

[Great-Kazoo]

as a CCW holder you are under no obligation to do anything any where, any time. Unless you are on site from the beginning of the shooting it is hard to discern who, what ,when etc.

An example is the shooting in NY where the one cop without ID is seen with an AR? going towards a shooting, looking to intervene. He is shot by a transit officer who hears GUN and then sees the od cop with the rifle and engages him, ending his life. The off duty cop had NO ID, NO Visible badge around his neck as required by the NYPD nor did he ID himself as LE when running towards the gunshots.
I am unable to go in to more detail of this incident because i was not there. However having numerous family members on the on with NYPD. I can tell you this was a very ugly incident where the transit cop who did pull the trigger has been demonized to the point of needing LE protection for his family. These guys are LE's and this shit happened to one of their own.

What happens if someone else hears shot's then see's you with a gun, shooting, and takes a shot at you. I would YELL PLEASE DROP YOUR WEAPON as loud as possible (if time and circumstance allowed) Then continue shout this phrase over and over until they either complied or you did what is necessary to Stop the Threat.
This gives you some form of ID to others in the area showing you are trying to disarm the aggressor and doing what is necessary if they do not comply.
Oh yeah Make sure you ask for an attorney, prior to opening your mouth.
Anything you say CAN and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.
Last sentence is not said or meant to be an attack, or derogatory statement against any LE's

[275RLTW]

Trick questions....

If you do not posess the common sense to determine if the shooter is engaging someone, then assesses and scans for other threats vice just shooting indescriminately at others, then stop carrying immediately. Not to be rude, however there is a certain level of responsibility that comes with the decision to end someone's life and if you are not there yet, no sweat, just stop carrying. Questions like that that remove common sense from the equasion are loaded questions and can cause you to develop the wrong ideals by leading you down the wrong path to begin with. FS is not highly known in the professional training community (I will hold my reservations about them & their lack of safety) and their philosophies are very misleading & detrimental to intuitive thinking. Glad to hear you got in some good trigger time, however look at ALL scenarios with an open mind, not within their black & white framework.

[Graves]

If you're nowhere near the threat, as a ccw holder there's no reason to play hero and run in guns blazin'. Get your loved ones the f*** out of there and don't turn back. Before you draw down on anybody you need to be 110% sure you've identified the threat.

[spleify]

I think if you walk in to an establishment and hear/see shot(s) being fired, and your very first reaction is to pull your side arm and start firing at said other firearm shooter without accessing the situation...well then you might not be the right person to have a CCW and carrying a side arm.

If someone would just shoot someone because they have a firearm and not first access the situation, surroundings and circumstances and (like mentioned above) ask the gunman nicely to put his weapon down and step back, if he's a good guy, he will, if he's swings around with a look of death in his eyes and says " I'm gonna blow your "fu%k@n head off"....well then you may have a reason to draw on them if not then IMO they may not be all that stable and maybe a different weapon might be a better decision for them...maybe a sling shot...those can REALLY hurt too... [Rant1]

Remember, being a good witness is almost always better than being a good shot.

[topshooter]

Well....one to think about ...but not for long.... Drop the bad guy - if it is a SAFE shot.....No folks in the way -- either in front - or behind the bad shooter... Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW... Then holster - your weapon - out of sight....so no one shoots you ... Then things will take care of themselves...as folks gather and COPS Show up.... Been there. In the Military - At a Bank in SUBIC BAY...Philippines...2 US MARINES came on a ROBBERY...they stood there ...with their hands on their pistols...and -- 2 PHILIPPINE MARINES burst in - pushed the US MARINES out of the way and shot down the robber - who was armed with a SHOTGUN.. You do not take time to think.... You ACT...immediate - to save lives... It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough... Been there also.. I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL.. I had to drop a dude on the Ship - doped up... But - he was lucky . I did not have time to grab my 1911 -- so I had to use the RIOT BATON... Did the job well... No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it ... But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better - and no one will be shooting at you. SEMPER FI

[DFBrews]

Elipsis... can be over kill

[Zundfolge]

This is one of those dumb scenarios that CCW trainers posit to make themselves look more clever than they really are.

If you give this serious concern then don't carry a gun ... being confused for a badguy by other CCWers (or the police) after a shooting is a possibility but not a likelihood (of course so is being killed by a falling asteroid, but you still leave the house without a helmet don't you?). But if you're really worried about it than just don't ever defend yourself and then you don't have to worry about it.

That and what coloccw said.

[Tweety Bird]

I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. Anyway, this is NOT a CCW class at all. It's a defensive handgun class and the question was asked of people who already possess a carry permit. Also remember that there are people here from all over the United States, who have to live with laws that are much more strict than we are "blessed" with in CO.

Anyhow, I'm not asking whether or not you should take the shot or not. I'm not asking what the law says about what you should or shouldn't do. That's a decision only you can make. And it's a decision you'll have to live with.

What I'm asking is how do you ensure that YOU aren't taken out by another carry permit holder. OK, you can put your pistol away, and that works if the BG is completely out of commission. But what if he's still fighting back, or is threatening to do so? You still have him covered, and someone else can see the commotion and assume that you're the bad guy.

Maybe worse yet, maybe it was YOU who just shot the good guy who just shot the bad guy. Adrenalin and excitement change the perspectives of events and time. See what I mean?

(During the lectures here, plenty of these things come up. We hear it in the crowds all the time: "TAKE HIM OUT". I liken this to the folks who spurt the old platitude, "They can have my guns when they pry them out of my cold, dead fingers." Really? If the black helicopters are hovering above your house, and you're surrounded by men in dark suits who wear sunglasses and have a radio microphone on their lapel, and they're all pointing M-16s at you and your family, are you REALLY going to let them kill you for your guns? You might be martyred, but you're still dead as Elvis. Now, I'm as big a supporter of the 2A as the next guy but I'm not letting my family die for some slogan.)

Back on track.

I'm certainly not suggesting there are any right or wrong answers here, and anyone who says there are, is a fool. Slamming it as a "bad question" is also BS, because it certainly is something that might come up, as shown in Jim's reply.

And for some "experts" to suggest that I should immediately stop carrying simply because I post this scenario, well, I question YOUR judgment, as well, because God didn't bless you with some superior knowledge of what someone should do here, than He did for the next person. Go ahead, blast FS if you must, I don't give a shit; I don't have a dog in that fight because I'm not competing with them for my $$. I'm just a student here and they ask questions that get us thinking about things that many don't consider before they decide to strap that .45 to their leg. Remember, the purpose of posing the question is NOT to make you decide whether or not you should shoot. The reason is to make you think about the responsibility a person takes by making the decision to carry. And if someone thinks these things through, instead of merely attacking the question, they come to exactly the conclusion that was posed by a couple of folks already; that is, your assessment of the situation will form your shoot-don't shoot decision.

And therein lies the rub.

[topshooter]

Ahem..... But...I am ....I restore Antique Cars.. [Coffee]

[Byte Stryke]

I love how some here suddenly become the authoritative final say in who should or should not carry.

what part of "Shall not be infringed." fucking confuses you?

I didn't see any of our names in the constitution as final judges of who got the right.
[Rant1]

I think people that tell others they shouldn't carry because they dont agree with them shouldn't carry.

:D

[Irving]

If you are even trying to be competent, then the answer to this question, is the same to EVERY question, and this isn't any more or less tricky than any other situation.

Yell to call the police, holster your weapon after you've assessed situation for other threats, etc.

Just please don't tell me that Front Sight was trying to use this question as a reason to sell those CCW "badges."

[DFBrews]

I took my ccw class at profire and he gave out alot of the same scenarios.

I honestly think they are presented to make people think more than anything else.

[TriggerHappy]

I love how some here suddenly become the authoritative final say in who should or should not carry.

what part of "Shall not be infringed." fucking confuses you?

I didn't see any of our names in the constitution as final judges of who got the right.
[Rant1]

I think people that tell others they shouldn't carry because they dont agree with them shouldn't carry.

:D

Byte, I agree with you about "not be infringed", but I think what others are trying to say; is to not get killed with your own gun and if you are going to carry, be DAMN sure that you are ready to put 2 center mass and 1 upstairs if necessary to stop a threat. If you are not ready for that, and the consequences, probably not a good idea to carry (but own as many guns as you want :) ).

[Pistol Packing Preacher]

"As dead as Elvis?"

Did he die?

[Coffee]

[Byte Stryke]

Byte, I agree with you about "not be infringed", but I think what others are trying to say; is to not get killed with your own gun and if you are going to carry, be DAMN sure that you are ready to put 2 center mass and 1 upstairs if necessary to stop a threat. If you are not ready for that, and the consequences, probably not a good idea to carry (but own as many guns as you want :) ).

I was going more for the hypocrisy factor.
We bitch about the libs telling us who can and cant, but then we pass judgement on others.
Whose to say the state shouldn't raise the bar even higher.


All conceal carry permits are now null and void pending 40 hours of classroom training per month followed by 40 hours of range instruction and marksmanship testing. This will only be permitted following morality testing and credit checks.

seriously... where does it stop?

I look at it this way, if you aren't at least reasonably effective enough with your weapon to the level of defending your person and hitting a man sized target at 20-35 feet, Darwin rules apply.

[275RLTW]

I love how some here suddenly become the authoritative final say in who should or should not carry.

what part of "Shall not be infringed." fucking confuses you?

I didn't see any of our names in the constitution as final judges of who got the right.
[Rant1]

I think people that tell others they shouldn't carry because they dont agree with them shouldn't carry.

:D

When a person can't tell a difference between a good guy and a bag guy, yes, I will advise them not to carry. That person, without the ability to make sound decisions, will end up doing the wrong thing, possibly injure or kill someone innocent, and cost the entire community through additional legislation by gun fearing liberals. They are a liability to the community, not an asset. If you think EVERYONE has a right to carry, then you haven't seen the idiots out at gun ranges or the wantabe "thugs" that use our kids' schools as proving grounds.

OP, just to clarify, I'm not implying that this is you, just answering Byte's question.

[TFOGGER]

My humble opionion, probably worth even less than what you guys are paying for it:

As a CCW holder, I am under no obligation, either legally or morally, to provide security for anyone other than myself and family. Depending on the situation, I might be inclined to take action to protect a group or individual that was clearly under attack, but my first inclination would be to ensure the safety of my family and self, and usually that means getting away from the threat (or not being there in the first place), NOT trying to be some combination of Jason Bourne and Rambo. I don't know if I could just flee from an active shooter situation, but as the Arizona shootings illustrated, you don't always know who's who. A CCW holder almost shot the guy that was wrestling Loughner to the ground while he was trying to change mags. I'd hate to be the guy who took out a hero...

[Ronin13]

This kind of scenario always comes up with my father and I when discussing CCW. He says "What if you were in the crowd when Sen Giffords was shot and you put the gunman down. Are you sure the rest of the crowd wouldn't ID you as the shooter?" The point is, people are stupid, the person is typically a smart, rational individual, but people, as a whole, are borderline retarded. Ask any LEO, something happens and you ask 6 people what happened, you're going to get 6 different stories. It happens all the time and shows how dumb the masses are. You can't present a loaded scenario and try to play devils advocate by saying something like "What if you show up late, or what if this, what if that..." What if you never have a situation where you need to use your weapon? Great! I wouldn't ever want to have to put someone down, but if the chance comes up that I have to, I will without hesitation, doubt, or regret, but the right circumstances must be present, and no person can predict or even try to bring into a scenario what those circumstances may be. It's a very unpredictable world and you never know what is around the next corner, you just have to be prepared for whatever may come up as it comes. If you carry (either CC or Open) you have no duty to do anything you may or may not be comfortable doing, you can become an innocent bystander or an end to a bad situation, it's what you choose to do at that given time and place. If you don't think you could pull the trigger and kill someone, fine, no one should tell you to turn in your gun and stop carrying. The only scenario that has no curveballs or odd scenes where I'd be conflicted to actually act that I've ever practiced and trained for is the robbery at weapon point. Home invasion, too unpredictable, but if a guy pulled a knife/gun/9 iron/blackjack/whatever on me and wanted to take my money/keys/car/whatever I have practiced drawing and putting him down in a swift and accurate manner. It's the only one to encounter without too many variables that can lead to trouble.

[Byte Stryke]

When a person can't tell a difference between a good guy and a bag guy, yes, I will advise them not to carry. That person, without the ability to make sound decisions, will end up doing the wrong thing, possibly injure or kill someone innocent, and cost the entire community through additional legislation by gun fearing liberals. They are a liability to the community, not an asset. If you think EVERYONE has a right to carry, then you haven't seen the idiots out at gun ranges or the wantabe "thugs" that use our kids' schools as proving grounds.

OP, just to clarify, I'm not implying that this is you, just answering Byte's question.


so you are the final authority on who should or can carry?

I agree that there are some serious ass-clowns are undereducated people out there.
Myself being one of them. you may call me an ass-clown but I'm actually referring to the undereducated part, as we all are. No one in here knows everything about everything in all situations.

so I say again, where is the line?

[Graves]

so you are the final authority on who should or can carry?

I agree that there are some serious ass-clowns are undereducated people out there.
Myself being one of them. you may call me an ass-clown but I'm actually referring to the undereducated part, as we all are. No one in here knows everything about everything in all situations.

so I say again, where is the line?

Making an observation doesnt mean he's staking his claim on the final word in the matter. If you can't tell when to pull out your weapon and fire, you shouldn't have one on you out in public, plain and simple. I really don't see how hard it is to draw the line there.

[Ronin13]

If you can't tell when to pull out your weapon and fire, you shouldn't have one on you out in public, plain and simple. I really don't see how hard it is to draw the line there.

I would say if there's any doubt don't pull it out. Take that dirty if you want :D
The problem is, every situation is different and some people would be hesitant to draw because they don't fully understand the situation. Case in point- the guy who taught my brother's CCW class said that he had a friend in a convenience store when a man came in and shot the clerk 3 times. No words, no warning, nothing stolen. He took cover, drew and waited for the guy to start walking the store and searching for witnesses to kill. Nothing, the guy left. Later he found that the guy was a father who's daughter was hospitalized due to a drug overdose and the dealer was the man working in the convenience store. After already telling the man weeks ago not to sell to his daughter or he'd kill him, the daughter ended up in the ER and the man made good on his promise. Was he right? No, but the instructors buddy made a wise decision to not intervene on a situation he didn't know and chose to only defend himself if the event happened to sway in that direction.

[Hkguy45]

I would say if there's any doubt don't pull it out. Take that dirty if you want :D
The problem is, every situation is different and some people would be hesitant to draw because they don't fully understand the situation. Case in point- the guy who taught my brother's CCW class said that he had a friend in a convenience store when a man came in and shot the clerk 3 times. No words, no warning, nothing stolen. He took cover, drew and waited for the guy to start walking the store and searching for witnesses to kill. Nothing, the guy left. Later he found that the guy was a father who's daughter was hospitalized due to a drug overdose and the dealer was the man working in the convenience store. After already telling the man weeks ago not to sell to his daughter or he'd kill him, the daughter ended up in the ER and the man made good on his promise. Was he right? No, but the instructors buddy made a wise decision to not intervene on a situation he didn't know and chose to only defend himself if the event happened to sway in that direction.

nice little devils advocate point....i think the most critical point here is self defense...what a crazy story

[Ronin13]

nice little devils advocate point....i think the most critical point here is self defense...what a crazy story

Well it goes to show that in a class setting you can present whatever scenario you like... but in the RW, well things may not be so cut and dry. What if there is an undercover, or off duty LEO? Would you shoot him and risk being pursued and killed by his buddies? My advice, if he IDs himself as a cop- which anyone can say they're one- tell him not to approach you and that you're armed. If he's stupid he'll step toward you and get shot, if he's smart he'll stay back and show some form or ID or back down, hopefully. I'd just use the defense "Anyone can SAY they're a cop."

[SAnd]

There is a big difference is saying

'You shouldn't carry a gun if you don't know what to do in all situations.'

As compared to-

'You shouldn't pull the trigger if you aren't sure of a situation.'

The first says you aren't allowed to defend yourself if masked thief pulls a weapon on you and demands your money and no one else is around. The second one says that you are allowed to defend yourself if you know not to shot if you aren't sure of who is the bad guy in a crowd.

Nobody knows everything. I won't deny a person the right to self defense as long they know when not to pull the trigger.

[Ronin13]

Nobody knows everything. I won't deny a person the right to self defense as long they know when not to pull the trigger.

Sometimes that's more important than knowing when to pull the trigger.

[JustAGuy]

Well....one to think about ...but not for long.... Drop the bad guy - if it is a SAFE shot.....No folks in the way -- either in front - or behind the bad shooter... Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW... Then holster - your weapon - out of sight....so no one shoots you ... Then things will take care of themselves...as folks gather and COPS Show up.... Been there. In the Military - At a Bank in SUBIC BAY...Philippines...2 US MARINES came on a ROBBERY...they stood there ...with their hands on their pistols...and -- 2 PHILIPPINE MARINES burst in - pushed the US MARINES out of the way and shot down the robber - who was armed with a SHOTGUN.. You do not take time to think.... You ACT...immediate - to save lives... It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough... Been there also.. I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL.. I had to drop a dude on the Ship - doped up... But - he was lucky . I did not have time to grab my 1911 -- so I had to use the RIOT BATON... Did the job well... No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it ... But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better - and no one will be shooting at you. SEMPER FI



I'm new here but find the discussions on this board to be very interesting and I've picked up quite a bit of good information on various topics.

I must say though, that in this particular thread, mixed in with some very well thought out and carefully considered responses, some things are deeply disturbing.

One poster in particular just scares the bajeezus out of me:

one to think about ...but not for long
Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW
Then things will take care of themselves
It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough
I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL
No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it
But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better

And the icing on the cake:

You do not take time to think.... You ACT

As I was reading the post that contained these items, I kept going to a specific situation in my mind and thinking about what could happen if this poster rolled up behind me.

I'm being carjacked at a light, can't move my vehicle. I decide (and it IS MY decision) that I can't draw my sidearm from my right hip quickly enough to keep this guy from shooting me before I get out of the vehicle. So, I put the shifter in park, open the door and step out. As the jacker is getting in and I'm drawing to stop him, the poster above rolls up and decides he doesn't need to take the time to think and has to ACT instead. He proceeds to put several large holes in me and the criminal speeds away in my truck.

Now, if my children (who are in the back seat of the truck) survive the brutality about to be inflicted on them by the jacker, they will be without a father to care for them. Is this the situation where they would hate the shooter (hero)? Who's going to tell my kids "tough, it all works out"? Will the fact that you made the papers justify killing a father of three girls?

Please, don't try to save my life...I don't need you to do that. I'll protect myself. Go save somebody else's life...and be sure to put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better.

[earplug]

How many hypothetical events will/can you pay/charge for in a CCW class?

[mcantar18c]

I'm not motivated enough to go find the posts you're talking about, but what I'm getting from your post is that 1. He's mostly right and it seems like you're missing something, and 2. You might want to rethink some things.

He's mostly right:
You don't think. You act. You respond. You don't think, that's what gets you dead. You revert to your training, which is why its important to get some good training.
You do what need to be done, and you do it NOW. You don't hesitate, that's what gets you dead.
You worry about the fight when you're in the fight, and you worry about the "after the fight" AFTER the fight. You don't worry about being sued when faced with a life or death situation, that's what gets you dead.
Put the piece down afterwards. Whether this is reholstering it or clearing it and setting it on the ground. Not because it looks better (that is a small part), but because a cop that's responding to a shots fired call shows up and sees a man with a gun in his hand will see you as a threat. I could be wrong, but I'd certainly see you as a threat if I were in his shoes and I'd treat you as such.

What you might want to rethink:
The way that you carry in the car. If you can't draw from your driver's seat quickly and efficiently, why the hell are you carrying it? No point carrying a weapon that you can't use well. I carry AIWB on my person, but I'm not dumb enough to keep it there in the car because I know it will be difficult to draw from that position. When I get in the car I put it in between the seat and the center console, only a few inches from my hand at any given time and easy to draw, and reholster it before I get out.

What you're missing:
The situation you imagined is NOT the same as the one the poster you're talking about was thinking (I think). All of what I said above applies to a REACTIVE fight... like getting mugged on the street, or getting carjacked, where they are the attacker and you are the target, and all of what's been said applies. What you're thinking of in your imaginary situation is a PROACTIVE fight... like seeing someone getting raped in an alley way or seeing someone getting carjacked, where YOU become the attacker and THEY become the target.
Reactive fight: They are the attacker, you are the target. They have the advantage. They put you in a position where you must react to their actions.
Proactive fight: You are the attacker, they are the target. You have the advantage. You can assess the situation before hand and decide how, and if, to act upon it, and by acting upon the situation you make the target react to your actions.

Make sense?


I'm new here but find the discussions on this board to be very interesting and I've picked up quite a bit of good information on various topics.

I must say though, that in this particular thread, mixed in with some very well thought out and carefully considered responses, some things are deeply disturbing.

One poster in particular just scares the bajeezus out of me:

one to think about ...but not for long
Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW
Then things will take care of themselves
It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough
I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL
No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it
But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better

And the icing on the cake:

You do not take time to think.... You ACT

As I was reading the post that contained these items, I kept going to a specific situation in my mind and thinking about what could happen if this poster rolled up behind me.

I'm being carjacked at a light, can't move my vehicle. I decide (and it IS MY decision) that I can't draw my sidearm from my right hip quickly enough to keep this guy from shooting me before I get out of the vehicle. So, I put the shifter in park, open the door and step out. As the jacker is getting in and I'm drawing to stop him, the poster above rolls up and decides he doesn't need to take the time to think and has to ACT instead. He proceeds to put several large holes in me and the criminal speeds away in my truck.

Now, if my children (who are in the back seat of the truck) survive the brutality about to be inflicted on them by the jacker, they will be without a father to care for them. Is this the situation where they would hate the shooter (hero)? Who's going to tell my kids "tough, it all works out"? Will the fact that you made the papers justify killing a father of three girls?

Please, don't try to save my life...I don't need you to do that. I'll protect myself. Go save somebody else's life...and be sure to put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better.

[JustAGuy]

I'm not motivated enough to go find the posts you're talking about, but what I'm getting from your post is that 1. He's mostly right and it seems like you're missing something, and 2. You might want to rethink some things.

He's mostly right:
You don't think. You act. You respond. You don't think, that's what gets

(...)

Make sense?

Thanks for the input. I honestly do appreciate it.

I think this may boil down to a difference in the reasons why different people carry.

My interpretation of the post I was refering to leads me to believe that this particular individual may carry a gun because he wants to be a hero and be looked up to (by others) as such. I say that due to the references to "saving lives", "making the papers", "put the piece away...it looks better", etc.

My motivations are very different. I carry a gun for one reason and one reason alone. To protect my life and the lives of my family. I view protecting my family as a responsibility similar to feeding them, clothing them, sheltering them, etc. A basic responsibility I have to MY FAMILY AND MYSELF.

I have established a very simple set of criteria that must be met before I will use the tool at my side...I'm a simple man, it HAS to be simple. My criteria are:

Am I in immediate danger of losing my life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Is a member of my family in immediate danger of losing their life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Note: I'm always re-assessing these criteria to see if I can make them simpler or easier to use.

That's it. If I, as a reasonable man, believe either of those criteria are met, I use the tool.

If any other situation occurs, the bar gets moved MUCH higher as to what facts I need to be completely convinced of before I will use the tool. I am under no obligation nor do I have the need/desire to protect the rest of society...I'm too busy raising my babies.

I guess what scares me about the post in question is the (my interpretation from what was written by another poster) "I don't have the responsibility to think before I employ deadly force" attitude. For me, personally, part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when NOT to pull the trigger.

[wrestler034]

Thanks for the input. I honestly do appreciate it.

I think this may boil down to a difference in the reasons why different people carry.

My interpretation of the post I was refering to leads me to believe that this particular individual may carry a gun because he wants to be a hero and be looked up to (by others) as such. I say that due to the references to "saving lives", "making the papers", "put the piece away...it looks better", etc.

My motivations are very different. I carry a gun for one reason and one reason alone. To protect my life and the lives of my family. I view protecting my family as a responsibility similar to feeding them, clothing them, sheltering them, etc. A basic responsibility I have to MY FAMILY AND MYSELF.

I have established a very simple set of criteria that must be met before I will use the tool at my side...I'm a simple man, it HAS to be simple. My criteria are:

Am I in immediate danger of losing my life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Is a member of my family in immediate danger of losing their life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Note: I'm always re-assessing these criteria to see if I can make them simpler or easier to use.

That's it. If I, as a reasonable man, believe either of those criteria are met, I use the tool.

If any other situation occurs, the bar gets moved MUCH higher as to what facts I need to be completely convinced of before I will use the tool. I am under no obligation nor do I have the need/desire to protect the rest of society...I'm too busy raising my babies.

I guess what scares me about the post in question is the (my interpretation from what was written by another poster) "I don't have the responsibility to think before I employ deadly force" attitude. For me, personally, part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when NOT to pull the trigger.

x2

[mcantar18c]

I agree about said posters questionable motives, hence why I said he was mostly right, not just plain right. Good things can be done for the wrong reasons just as bad things need to happen for good reasons.

I agree 100% on protecting you and yours being as much of a responsibility as putting food on the table for them. In my eyes it all falls under the basic responsibility of providing for them, which is your responsibility as a man. Provide food, provide shelter, provide financial stability, and provide protection.

I also agree on the simplicity of the criteria to use your weapon in a reactive fight... if I feel that I or a loved one is in danger, I will act. Period. No if's, and's, or but's.

It sounds like you're focused on reactive fights, and have no interest in proactive ones... in otherwords, your only motive for carrying a weapon is for defending yourself and your loved ones should the need arise, and have no interest in running to the aid of a stranger (Note, there's nothing wrong with this, your family is the highest priority). If this is correct, than your views are absolutely right.
This is, however, where you and I differ... I would not hesitate to help someone in need if I feel they would not fare well without help. This of course is completely dependent on the individual situation, and doesn't apply to all. If I see two guys going at it outside of a bar, I might watch for entertainment but I won't step in... too many unknowns, and I feel that a man should be able to take on another male in a fair fight without assistance. If there's multiple attackers, especially with weapons, I'd be more inclined to do something. If I see a woman being assaulted in an alley way, I would respond with lethal force (actually, if I see a woman being treated aggressively in any way, I'd respond with as much force as I feel necessary... not always lethal, but I will intervene). Point is, it all depends on the situation, but I AM willing to help if necessary, and these proactive situations have a whole different set of criteria than a reactive fight.


Thanks for the input. I honestly do appreciate it.

I think this may boil down to a difference in the reasons why different people carry.

My interpretation of the post I was refering to leads me to believe that this particular individual may carry a gun because he wants to be a hero and be looked up to (by others) as such. I say that due to the references to "saving lives", "making the papers", "put the piece away...it looks better", etc.

My motivations are very different. I carry a gun for one reason and one reason alone. To protect my life and the lives of my family. I view protecting my family as a responsibility similar to feeding them, clothing them, sheltering them, etc. A basic responsibility I have to MY FAMILY AND MYSELF.

I have established a very simple set of criteria that must be met before I will use the tool at my side...I'm a simple man, it HAS to be simple. My criteria are:

Am I in immediate danger of losing my life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Is a member of my family in immediate danger of losing their life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Note: I'm always re-assessing these criteria to see if I can make them simpler or easier to use.

That's it. If I, as a reasonable man, believe either of those criteria are met, I use the tool.

If any other situation occurs, the bar gets moved MUCH higher as to what facts I need to be completely convinced of before I will use the tool. I am under no obligation nor do I have the need/desire to protect the rest of society...I'm too busy raising my babies.

I guess what scares me about the post in question is the (my interpretation from what was written by another poster) "I don't have the responsibility to think before I employ deadly force" attitude. For me, personally, part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when NOT to pull the trigger.

[JustAGuy]

I agree about said posters questionable motives, hence why I said he was mostly right, not just plain right. Good things can be done for the wrong reasons just as bad things need to happen for good reasons.

I agree 100% on protecting you and yours being as much of a responsibility as putting food on the table for them. In my eyes it all falls under the basic responsibility of providing for them, which is your responsibility as a man. Provide food, provide shelter, provide financial stability, and provide protection.

I also agree on the simplicity of the criteria to use your weapon in a reactive fight... if I feel that I or a loved one is in danger, I will act. Period. No if's, and's, or but's.

It sounds like you're focused on reactive fights, and have no interest in proactive ones... in otherwords, your only motive for carrying a weapon is for defending yourself and your loved ones should the need arise, and have no interest in running to the aid of a stranger (Note, there's nothing wrong with this, your family is the highest priority). If this is correct, than your views are absolutely right.
This is, however, where you and I differ... I would not hesitate to help someone in need if I feel they would not fare well without help. This of course is completely dependent on the individual situation, and doesn't apply to all. If I see two guys going at it outside of a bar, I might watch for entertainment but I won't step in... too many unknowns, and I feel that a man should be able to take on another male in a fair fight without assistance. If there's multiple attackers, especially with weapons, I'd be more inclined to do something. If I see a woman being assaulted in an alley way, I would respond with lethal force (actually, if I see a woman being treated aggressively in any way, I'd respond with as much force as I feel necessary... not always lethal, but I will intervene). Point is, it all depends on the situation, but I AM willing to help if necessary, and these proactive situations have a whole different set of criteria than a reactive fight.

I think we may be, pretty much, in violent agreement on this issue. [Beer] I'll use the sidearm MUCH more readily to defend myself or my family than I will to defend strangers. It's not that I don't care about strangers, quite the opposite. I consider myself to be a member of my community and will do whatever I CAN to take care of my neighbors when they need my help, even if they don't live on my street. As a matter of fact, about two weeks ago, I was peripherally involved in the shooting that occured near Marksheffel and Constitution. I'm the guy who put the women and kiddos in my truck and drove them back behind the church. In the end, everything worked out ok and I felt pretty good about having had the opportunity to help out some folks who were in a tight spot. However, at no time during the entire incident did conditions warrant the introduction of another gun.

[mcantar18c]

Nice job on helping them out, I'm not familiar with the story but it sounds like you did a damn good job there. When you must use deadly force, you must do so quickly, efficiently, aggressively, and without hesitation or remorse... but there are many situations where there are much better courses of action, and this was one of them.
[Beer]

Here's an interesting story that was posted on the other forum I frequent a few days ago. Makes you think.


Last night we took the golf cart up to the beach area where folks cruise every night, hang out and have fun. I pulled the cart over facing the road and the kids went on the playground behind me. After a while I see 2 big guys, around 30-35 years old jump off of their cart onto another cart with a single small kid who looked about 15. They yanked him off into the street and then started pushing his cart off the road. While they were doing this other men started yelling at these guys to leave him alone, he is only a kid. While this was occurring the "victim" runs up a side road and start hitting a girl. Another teen steps in and the "victim" stabs him in the chest. That teen died right there in the street.

Apparently this kid had been hitting and kicking this girl up the street just before this and these older guys saw it.

[JustAGuy]

Nice job on helping them out, I'm not familiar with the story but it sounds like you did a damn good job there. When you must use deadly force, you must do so quickly, efficiently, aggressively, and without hesitation or remorse... but there are many situations where there are much better courses of action, and this was one of them.
[Beer]

Here's an interesting story that was posted on the other forum I frequent a few days ago. Makes you think.

Excellent example of a situation where things aren't always as they seem. I suppose the poster of the story above, if he/she were armed, could have gone running into the situation like Rambo without a jock strap, opened fire and maimed or killed several innocent people. I guess I just want to display enough humility to myself to say "hey, I don't know it all and I don't have the right to unilaterally declare myself judge, jury and executioner in the matter of a few seconds. Humility is a character trait that I strongly admire in a person, where as I believe that ignorance (of the facts) and arrogance (I've appointed myself as armed security for all those around me) are a truely dangerous combination.

[mcantar18c]

Almost everybody on that forum is armed 100% of the time... the poster was too far away to quickly act and with his kids around he didn't want bullets flying if it could be avoided. I think its a great example of how you don't always know the details of a situation, what I meant by "too many variables" in my example in a previous post. The only safe course of action I can see in that situation, other than staying in the background and taking no action, would be to prone all of them out and let the cops handle it.

About the "appointing yourself as armed guard for all those around me" bit... I believe that by carrying a weapon and knowing how to use it - having the capacity and capability - you DO make yourself an armed guard for all those around you. It is up to you, however, to decide and know how and when to act (and more importantly when NOT to act) in a situation.

[JustAGuy]

Almost everybody on that forum is armed 100% of the time... the poster was too far away to quickly act and with his kids around he didn't want bullets flying if it could be avoided. I think its a great example of how you don't always know the details of a situation, what I meant by "too many variables" in my example in a previous post. The only safe course of action I can see in that situation, other than staying in the background and taking no action, would be to prone all of them out and let the cops handle it.

About the "appointing yourself as armed guard for all those around me" bit... I believe that by carrying a weapon and knowing how to use it - having the capacity and capability - you DO make yourself an armed guard for all those around you. It is up to you, however, to decide and know how and when to act (and more importantly when NOT to act) in a situation.

Since that day a couple of weeks ago, I've replayed in my mind, probably a couple of hundred times, what I could have done better, faster, etc. During that mental analysis, I've thought about different ways the situation could have unfolded and yes, I've envisioned a number of scenarios where I would have drawn AND fired in defense of those two children and two women who had already been shot at once (he unloaded 6 rounds into that car) just before I arrived on scene.

Having said that, regarding your statement "by carrying a weapon and knowing how to use it - having the capacity and capability - you DO make yourself an armed guard for all those around you", we may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on. Again, it probably comes down to one's own motivation for carring a firearm in the first place. We probably have somewhat different motivations. But then again you may like your women on the thinner side while I like mine with a little bit more "hilly terrain". And that's OK too.[Dance]

[MrPrena]

If you are even trying to be competent, then the answer to this question, is the same to EVERY question, and this isn't any more or less tricky than any other situation.

Yell to call the police, holster your weapon after you've assessed situation for other threats, etc.

Just please don't tell me that Front Sight was trying to use this question as a reason to sell those CCW "badges."


+1
I was thinking the same thing.

[jonnyd49]

When a person can't tell a difference between a good guy and a bag guy, yes

Usually the bag guy has a King Soopers name tag on. [ROFL2]

[legaleagle]

First off - Tweety Bird - thanks for providing some thoght provoking issues. I one for find it necessary to the mental training and being better prepared. It is sensible and consistent with other life saving training and a core principal - don't become a victim.

You can train and train as much as you want shooting, but what you learn is simply that, to shoot. All CCW situations are more critical to know when to defend yourself. The point of pulling trigger is the point of no return. Getting out of a situation is the number one priority and you try do that without shoting anyone at all costs - shooting is a last resort as you can never take the bullet back.

In short, quit overanalyzing the situation and reading more into what Tweety Bird was pointing out. Ironically, the situation presented here was misinterpreted. So, how objective is everyone, really?



I for one say keep the scenarios coming.

[Ronin13]

First off - Tweety Bird - thanks for providing some thoght provoking issues. I one for find it necessary to the mental training and being better prepared. It is sensible and consistent with other life saving training and a core principal - don't become a victim.

You can train and train as much as you want shooting, but what you learn is simply that, to shoot. All CCW situations are more critical to know when to defend yourself. The point of pulling trigger is the point of no return. Getting out of a situation is the number one priority and you try do that without shoting anyone at all costs - shooting is a last resort as you can never take the bullet back.

In short, quit overanalyzing the situation and reading more into what Tweety Bird was pointing out. Ironically, the situation presented here was misinterpreted. So, how objective is everyone, really?



I for one say keep the scenarios coming.

One of the funniest and scariest scenarios is the Lethal Weapon 1 scenario:
You all know it- Riggs sees a man holding Murtaugh's daughter at gunpoint, jumps in and saves the day hurting the guy only to find it's a rubber gun and they're filming a movie... Consider what you'd do in this situation.

[JustAGuy]

First off - Tweety Bird - thanks for providing some thoght provoking issues. I one for find it necessary to the mental training and being better prepared. It is sensible and consistent with other life saving training and a core principal - don't become a victim.

You can train and train as much as you want shooting, but what you learn is simply that, to shoot. All CCW situations are more critical to know when to defend yourself. The point of pulling trigger is the point of no return. Getting out of a situation is the number one priority and you try do that without shoting anyone at all costs - shooting is a last resort as you can never take the bullet back.

In short, quit overanalyzing the situation and reading more into what Tweety Bird was pointing out. Ironically, the situation presented here was misinterpreted. So, how objective is everyone, really?



I for one say keep the scenarios coming.

+2

I wonder if some folks don't want to analyze scenarios because it takes all the fun out of being a Wyatt Earp wannabe.

[rocktot]

So, your going to ask a nervous, moronic 'gunman', who is drawn and cocked, to 'put his gun down'? Or if he is pointing a shotgun at someone.

That would be playing Russian Roulette. You have to instantly decide, if you see a criminal holding a gun at someone, if you take them out. Asking them to disarm is asking to get shot at. They are likely in HIGH ADRENALINE MODE, AND HIGHLY AGITATED. Yelling and Identifying yourself, when NOT IN A UNIFORM, as an 'authority figure', and then now you have a gun trained on you, you might as well let it just happen.

If someone has a gun OUT, its either do or don't, as far as I can see. Better have that 'shooters insurance' also.

[rocktot]

Oh, this reminds me of the Army guy in Nevada a few months ago who HAD a CCW permit, and got shot by 3 cops. Someone saw his pistol, called the cops. He took it lightly, being ex-military, and did something stupid, like turning around and flashing it or something. Whatever it was, he got shot by 3 cops and died. Talk radio did NOT cover this one. He was legal to carry.

[AirbornePathogen]

Someone told me once that the best way to survive a firefight is not to get into one. For my money, CCW or no, if I found myself in that situation, my response would be to get my ass and the ass of anyone with me out of there. Once we've cleared the threat area, I'd get on the horn to PD and let them handle it. That said, if the shooter became a direct threat to me and mine, and/or got between me and the way out of there, THEN I would engage. But not before. Just my $0.02

[Byte Stryke]

One of the funniest and scariest scenarios is the Lethal Weapon 1 scenario:
You all know it- Riggs sees a man holding Murtaugh's daughter at gunpoint, jumps in and saves the day hurting the guy only to find it's a rubber gun and they're filming a movie... Consider what you'd do in this situation.


I would pull out my 1911, affix the scope, compute my weather, wind and the rotation of the earth. stabilize my tripod, Adjust my Scope and take the 450 yard head-shot.


[ROFL1]

[Opie]

we can all say "if that were me" but until it happens we are all just bullshitting ourselves.

Everyone will act differently, I tend to subscribe to the "find the biggest rock and hind" crowd. AKA the
" best way to survive a firefight is not to get into one" crowd.

[trailgunner]

Someone told me once that the best way to survive a firefight is not to get into one. For my money, CCW or no, if I found myself in that situation, my response would be to get my ass and the ass of anyone with me out of there. Once we've cleared the threat area, I'd get on the horn to PD and let them handle it. That said, if the shooter became a direct threat to me and mine, and/or got between me and the way out of there, THEN I would engage. But not before. Just my $0.02

+1 for using your brain as your first defensive weapon