View Full Version : USPSA rifle ?
This thought started, when I asked our fellow shooter Jerry if he would be interested in promoting rifle shooting in USPSA ? I mean _rifle_, no 3-gun, multigun etc.
For those of you who do not know, Jerry is running for USPSA president and that is why I asked him about it.
I loved IPSC rifle matches when I was living in Europe, but I have not found similar sports over here. Maybe Hosers rifle matches could be pretty close to it.
According to IPSC rules, shooting distances and round count should be as follows: 30% 0-60 meters, 50% 60-150 meters and 20% 150-300 meters.
So, it is fast and highly semi-auto sport, where AR-15 dominates the field. There are manual action divisions, though but I have seen somebody shooting manuls only very rarely.
Specially USPSA pistol/3-gun shooters, what are your thoughts about USPSA rifle matches ?
I'm interested in rifle matches.
Byte Stryke
07-10-2011, 19:02
hesitantly, yes, maybe-ish
Hosers rifle matches have targets from contact to 425 yards shooting from a variety of supported and non supported positions. So for those interested on the front range come try it.
If USPSA promoted this discipline perhaps it would grow. Seems 3gun is the closest they have at the moment.
Not a USPSA sanctioned match, but very fun nonetheless, here's a vid of a stage from Hoser's June Pueblo Tactical Rifle match. More matches like this would be sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZdD5KI4N3U
I've talked with Jerry about a rifle only match there at Weld & he is open to the idea. We were discussing it last year but we both have been too busy to persue it any. I would be willing to dedicate the time & targets we have available to the matc, as well as sponsorship, however finding the time to get it firured out has been lacking. We were thinking mid Sept. before nationals and before the snow falls....any thoughts?
Stages would closely resemble the USPSA guidlines you mentioned, forcing the shooters to use that trigger more & actually run the gun vice pinging targets at distance.
Perhaps I need to dedicate time to sit & talk with Jerry more. Any input or if someone has more time to devote to this, please feel free. We would love a fast rifle match in Northern Colorado & again, would contribute with recources, targetry, and what money we could.
VNgunfighter
07-10-2011, 21:30
I think rifle/carbine matches are a great idea.
But locally there would be some issues.
There is not a range in the Denver Metro area that could support this type of match. Pueblo would be the closest and might be able to get away with it. For the have the range and the resources. CRC might be able to do this, but to do this there would need to be a 10-12 stage match.
I am all for the 30/50/20 ratio. But there is a existing problem with MED range rifle. Every range in CO has a 100yrd berm, some have 200, but there are very few that can go to 300.
But personally I think USPSA and the thought of slating something as a USPSA match, especially a rifle match would be a problem. For the Outlaw organizations are way more progressive, creative and don't need votes for stage design and whatever else.
Plus I support the people who support the sport and play the game as well.
And true IPSC rifle has 2 divisions, Standard and Open.
there are successful carbine type matches all over the country and very few are under the USPSA banner.
So if this were to happen how many classes would there be? I can think of 6 classes.
Please keep in mind that like USPSA pistol rules, rifle rules should not necessarily follow 100% IPSC rules. In my opinion, USPSA pistol rules are far better / more shooter oriented than IPSC rules, why not to do the same with rifle rules ? Actually, IPSC rifle has more divisions than 2, I remember 4. But, clever idea might be to use 3-gun existing divisions and equipment regulations for rifles ?
However, I think IPSC rifle rules have generally more common sense than pistol rules.
The 2 just happen to have probably 99% of competitors.
And 200yd is allright - if it is 30% of shots between 150 and 300 meters, 200yd = ~183 meters so it fits perfectly.
Of course, would be more fun to shoot 300m or even longer.
Metro area has anyway very limited possibilities to set up USPSA match(es), rifle or pistol :(
SA Friday
07-10-2011, 23:07
I think it would come down to competition with other matches. At least here on the front range, there is a ton of matches as we stand and the competition for the shooters is a reality at quite a few of the matches.
Then you have competition as to which set of rules to use for a match like this, USPSA or outlaw. Having Hoser and JJ in the area, outlaw matches are going to win out in he long run. They have been running matches for so long with tried and true sets of rules, it's almost going to be pretty hard to convince anyone that USPSA rules are better to run a match under.
If you are suggesting that USPSA run rifle matches nationally as a suggestion to Jerry if he gets elected, i think that could be accomplished by simply adding verbage to the current 3 gun rules allowing a match with just rifles. I would have to look, there might be that option already.
Kind of a side bar discussion, but I would personally like to see a SMG division in some form for USPSA matches. We used to do a second gun SMG division in York, PA when I was there, and shooting a suppressed 9mm AR in a USPSA stage is amazing fun. It doesn't slow the matches down either like a side bar match as the SMGs can run the stages just like a pistol in regular rotation.
VNgunfighter
07-10-2011, 23:32
I was just answering the question on 'USPSA Rifle".
The only thing that is a standard is the USPSA safety rules, which are used across the nation.
Everything else is "Outlaw Modified".
In the Multigun World, USPSA does not lead, they follow.
And I was not getting into the rules, just replying to the questions on the interest if rifle matches in Colorado.
I think there is a huge potential for carbine/rifle matches here. there just needs to be a good venue for this concept.
And support the fact of new divisions ie "SMG division" but there should be a minimum number of shooters in that class I think.
If you think about it, a "rifle only" match could bring more than just one specified system out.
A few comments...
First, one of the benefits of running under the USPSA banner is liability. Outlaw is just that, and there are risks that some ignore, and others that hope they come out okay if something bad happens.
Second, USPSA completely revamped the rules in MG due to input from competitors. CRCPS is one of only a VERY few clubs, maybe the only one, that has actually run matches under the new 2011 provisional rules.
Third, CRCPS has the facilty and props to run these kind of matches, be it PCC, SMG, rifle only, pistol-carbine etc. We have two more MG matches this year, 9-3 and 10-1. Come on out and try it, you might like it. But, more importantly, if you are willing to design the stages and set them up, I am MORE than willing to offer a date (1st Saturday) for you to try out a different format. My intent is to run 5 to 7 MG matches per year, so the other dates are open and if a new match format draws, we can keep doing it.
CRCPS will be running a major MG match next year, already have section and area approvals, but the format is not set. If you want to be involved and help decide that, I am all ears.
Best,
PS, the "you" means anyone reading this, not just Hannu. [Beer]
MarkCO,
how about a website we can see what/where CRCPS is? Perhaps list of current matches/schedule and a heads up for the next one (especially set up day)?
Gracias amigo
MarkCO,
how about a website we can see what/where CRCPS is? Perhaps list of current matches/schedule and a heads up for the next one (especially set up day)?
Gracias amigo
Match announcements go out on the USPSA ECO results list and they are on www.crci.org (http://www.crci.org) under "Event Schdule"
We just have 2 more MG matches this year on the calendar, Sept 3 and OCt 1. 2nd Saturday is USPSA Pistol, 3rd Saturday is Steel Challenge, 4th Saturday is Precision Rifle, 4th Sunday is Cowboy. There are also Zoot matches, and these are just for the East Range. They have all of the traditional straight line disciplines plus sporting clays as well.
I have lots of stage diagrams just ready to go.
If you guys are interested, here is a link to Finnish 2011 Rifle Nationals stage diagrams: http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/tipsc/Kilpailut/2011%20Rifle%20Staget.pdf
Match was in military area, so use of steel was limited. They would allow to use of "Jaster" targets, but in my opinion those targets suck in a match.
Makr, I will keep that in mind - should have more time after US pistol Nationals...
First I think a little history of 3gun / practical rifle in Colorado is needed . This is all my recollection of the events as related verbally to me by the participants .
3gun started at AGC as an additional discipline with in the USPSA/PSAC banner with people that shoot pistol as well as the SOF matches , The original outlaw 3gun match . After a period of time certain individuals within PSAC decided to do away with 3gun with out consulting the 3gun match director and PSAC's involvement with 3gun ended and a generally bad taste in the 3gun communities mouth over the way it was handled was created .
This is when the original RM3G organization started running monthly matches at AGC , PWSA , and Clear Creek on a rotating basis . In approx 2000 the PWSA match split off and was run by Eddie , Hoser , Vickie , and others over the years . The PWSA matches evolved from 3gun to rifle / shotgun to the rifle match as it is today . The Weld county matches and the others put on by CMG came about in the mid 2000's because of the dealings of the then President of RM3G and the majority of the old time shooters parted ways and started there own organization .
The recent involvement of USPSA with 3gun has been a very rough road and as indicated by match attendance , not the way the majority of shooters want to pursue the 3gun discipline , the USPSA matches regularly go unfilled where the outlaw matches sell out in seconds with online sign up .
Looking back on the SOF rules the USPSA would go crazy over what was accepted , IE. re holstering a hot pistol on the clock . The core group of 3gun shooters in Colorado come from this back round , with some of us being the match staff that ran the last SOF match at NRAWC . This has colored the way we think matches should be run and what we like to shoot .
The way I understand it IPSC rifle is mostly paper targets and a small portion steel . While I see paper targets as a good thing because accuracy is defined . With targets 200 - 300 yards out scoring them slows stages way down especially if you can only shoot 1 shooter per target array .
The other issue I see is the trend today to relegate a carbine to shooting fast at CQB distances , its a rifle the idea is to affect change at distance .
So to the guys that want a CQB rifle match more power to you all you have to do is put in the work and make it happen and there in lyes the part that most people don't want . It's easier to be a consumer than a provider .
Just a quick note about IPSC rifle...
Why paper targets are widely used ? Reason is you can not just estimate holdover and/or wind, shoot few rounds and try to hear "klang". With paper, you have to know where you are shooting because you can not see or hear if you hit or not.
That is good and bad thing... Good thing; it takes more shot calling ability eg. basic rifle skills.
Bad thing is slow stage resetting, which can be however resolved many ways... One is separate RO(´s) near long range targets, naturally behind some cover :)
Other solution is to use ATV to take RO (and shooter if he/she wants) to the targets fast. More fun: combined 4 wheeling and shooting experience :)
Both have been tested and tried with good success, and happy wheelers & shooters.
Anyway, many rifle IPSC matches are going more and more short-range-paper-long-range-steel just to make matches run faster.
But like said earlier, I do not recommend to adopt IPSC rules 100%. Those rules can and should be improved, not just adopted :)
Maybe if there was also a class for .30 cal shooters. Kinda like heavy metal or he-man in 3 gun.
VNgunfighter
07-11-2011, 19:11
Just a quick note about IPSC rifle...
Why paper targets are widely used ? Reason is you can not just estimate holdover and/or wind, shoot few rounds and try to hear "klang". With paper, you have to know where you are shooting because you can not see or hear if you hit or not.
That is good and bad thing... Good thing; it takes more shot calling ability eg. basic rifle skills.
Bad thing is slow stage resetting, which can be however resolved many ways... One is separate RO(´s) near long range targets, naturally behind some cover :)
Other solution is to use ATV to take RO (and shooter if he/she wants) to the targets fast. More fun: combined 4 wheeling and shooting experience :)
Both have been tested and tried with good success, and happy wheelers & shooters.
Anyway, many rifle IPSC matches are going more and more short-range-paper-long-range-steel just to make matches run faster.
But like said earlier, I do not recommend to adopt IPSC rules 100%. Those rules can and should be improved, not just adopted :)
I think you are contradicting yourself here. Regardless of where the targets are located, paper or steel, the shooter should know his holdover. I still don't understand the benefits of paper past 100yards. And am an advocate for reactive steel.
I just don't see any reason for the shooter,RO and driver to travel downrange, there is way too much time lost here, and if there is going to be any paper it should be inside 100 yards.
Plus look at these stages you posted, and I think you could run 2 in a berm if the width is good. The look simple to set up and look like speed shoots to me. So for that matter with targets in banks of course the match will run faster. And there is very little movement.
VNgunfighter
07-11-2011, 19:17
Maybe if there was also a class for .30 cal shooters. Kinda like heavy metal or he-man in 3 gun.
100% for this as well.
There are so many rifle shooters here on the front range and over the hill. That if this match was managed correctly, the bolt gun drivers, SMG dudes, carbines, rifles, and everyone else could come and shoot this match.
But .....I still don't know the intention of the question "USPSA Rifle Match"?
Would this be a national level outlaw match, or just a weekend blastathon?
Having RO's down range to score targets is a no go at the clubs I shoot at because they will not allow it irregardless . Also the USPSA rules allows for the shooter to see the targets before they are scored / taped and this means there would be time from clearing the shooter till going down range and back added in to the turn around time .
Don't get me wrong I'm all for shooting paper at distance but in a typical action style match format it's just not practical .
The good shooters don't employ the cone of fire on the long range steel they know there holds and typically go 1 for 1 in my experience . The ones I see that do poke and pray are the guy's that spend all there time using there rifle at pistol distances .
Zak Smith
07-12-2011, 00:15
Hey guys,
Besides the excellent Pueblo rifle matches, we already shoot 3-Gun at Weld County every month. If you want to try out the concept, I'd be happy to have 3 or even 4 rifle stages some month. We have a match coming up there on July 23rd. We don't shoot paper on the 200 meter berm, but I often set up 6" plates to shoot from offhand, rollover prone, the wobbly platform, and a host of other evil things.
Or you could register for the Thunder Beast Team Challenge in November in NM. It's going to be all carbine plus rifle.
-z
Chuck, come on out and try a MG match at CRCPS and I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Holstering hot IS legal in USPSA, and several did so at the last CRCPS MG match. We have a LOT of steel on the way too. Also, the 2011 Provisional rules are Time Plus. Essentially, through some vocal protests and comunication to the ADs, USPSA has modified their rules to be in concert with what the shooters asked for. I also hope more change is coming...
The benefit of history is that is provides a good book of what works and what does not, hopefully we learn... The collective group of shooters should have a say in what kind of matches are run, which has been my goal from the get go.
As for the matches being sold out...Until 3GN, only Benning actually ever sold out such that people who wanted to shoot could not. 3GN has brought in a bunch of USPSA pistol shooters...good or bad, into 3Gun, it just is that way.
Again, come shoot a CRCPS MG match and let me know what you think. I choose to look at it as a process...taking good input from all rather than anything being in stone.
Maybe if there was also a class for .30 cal shooters. Kinda like heavy metal or he-man in 3 gun.
You can shoot .30 caliber in USPSA. Major and minor scoring can be used in both USPSA Rifle and USPSA Precision Rifle.
Maybe Hosers rifle matches could be pretty close to it.
A few years back when Eddie Rhodes and a few of us decided to turn our 3-gun matches into rifle only matches we had a few goals in mind.
A. Shoot rifles like rifles, not pistols. Sure an occasional QCB stage every once in a while is fun, but over and over is not.
B. Challenge all shooters, new and experienced. That is the hardest part to accomplish by far.
C. Take advantage of the space and lack of restrictions Pueblo imposes on us.
As of right now we run 3 stages with mostly steel/reactive targets. The standards stage average range is 150 yards but no further than 200 yards. The stage we used to consider the long range stage is 300 yards max. This year we added a new place to shoot up on our shotgun berms. Most of the shots are 150-250 yards with a full sized IPSC target at 375-450 yards.
We don't use much paper as it is a lot more RO and assistants intensive.
USPSA shot themselves in the foot with regards to 3-gun and precision rifle. It is going to take a long time for many of us to have any faith in them where anything other than a pistol is concerned.
Zak Smith
07-12-2011, 13:06
As for the matches being sold out...Until 3GN, only Benning actually ever sold out such that people who wanted to shoot could not. 3GN has brought in a bunch of USPSA pistol shooters...good or bad, into 3Gun, it just is that way.
SMM3G has sold out for years, since I shot it in 2004. RM3G has sold out for years. The field/long-range style matches usually sell out in seconds (online) or on the first day for mail-in signup. Chuck's point holds..
VNgunfighter
07-12-2011, 20:19
You can shoot .30 caliber in USPSA. Major and minor scoring can be used in both USPSA Rifle and USPSA Precision Rifle.
What is USPSA Precision RIfle?
Seriously?????
VNgunfighter
07-12-2011, 20:21
Chuck, come on out and try a MG match at CRCPS and I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Holstering hot IS legal in USPSA, and several did so at the last CRCPS MG match. We have a LOT of steel on the way too. Also, the 2011 Provisional rules are Time Plus. Essentially, through some vocal protests and comunication to the ADs, USPSA has modified their rules to be in concert with what the shooters asked for. I also hope more change is coming...
The benefit of history is that is provides a good book of what works and what does not, hopefully we learn... The collective group of shooters should have a say in what kind of matches are run, which has been my goal from the get go.
As for the matches being sold out...Until 3GN, only Benning actually ever sold out such that people who wanted to shoot could not. 3GN has brought in a bunch of USPSA pistol shooters...good or bad, into 3Gun, it just is that way.
Again, come shoot a CRCPS MG match and let me know what you think. I choose to look at it as a process...taking good input from all rather than anything being in stone.
SOF was always full, and there was a long wait list to get into this match.
What is USPSA Precision RIfle?
Seriously?????
They called it Manually Operated Rifle, aka bolt gun.
Didn't last long. Went from page 1 to a footnote in under a year or so.
We tried it (MOR) at Pueblo for a year, maybe a bit longer.
VNgunfighter
07-12-2011, 22:49
They called it Manually Operated Rifle, aka bolt gun.
Didn't last long. Went from page 1 to a footnote in under a year or so.
We tried it (MOR) at Pueblo for a year, maybe a bit longer.
HAHA......I knew what it was. I shot it every year they had it (MOR).
Are they thinking, naming is something different will be more appealing??
I think not.
Your MOR matches were way more advanced and challenging than any USPSA concept.
Mark , sooner or later I'll make it out there . With work for the last 3 years or so I've had to be selective about what I can shoot and the shoulder has been less tolerant of the shotgun so sadly 3gun has been on hold for the most part . Eric said that the stages were good on the match that he shot when he came out .
Looking at the IPSC stages that were posted they are all stand and shoot speed shoots with minimal movement for the most part . The Colorado 3gun crowd is both blessed and cursed with the natural terrain field courses that have become the norm in the area . Everybody that I shoot with on a regular basis would always rather shoot a field course over a square range stand and shoot any day . The typical 10 - 20 round 5 second USPSA course just doesn't interest us .
One thing over the years that has been noticed is the fact regardless of the weapons system that by practicing / competing with targets farther and smaller than the norm that shooting up close becomes exponentially easier . So in my mind the people that want to shoot real fast , real close like a Magpul video are short changing themselves in the end .
On the front range the PWSA carbine match is as good as it gets in my opinion . About the only thing that would make it better is more natural terrain . That is a function of the range and not the match itself and out of Hoser's control and He worked hard to get to shoot over by the shotgun traps . The best way to describe the direction the PWSA match has gone is to say Eddie would have liked it .
Mark , sooner or later I'll make it out there . With work for the last 3 years or so I've had to be selective about what I can shoot and the shoulder has been less tolerant of the shotgun so sadly 3gun has been on hold for the most part . Eric said that the stages were good on the match that he shot when he came out .
Tell you what Chuck, if you can make it Sept 3 or Oct 1, LMK and I'll make stages that allow enough choice you can skip the shotgun altogether if you want. We have several people wanting to try a match sans shotgun, so it will benefit several folks.
Sept is the last SRM for the year so I'll be down there for that but Oct is probably doable .
k2peaker
07-17-2011, 23:03
Hey Hannu,
I really think the hardest part will be to find a weekend slot that will work. RJ and I just went through that with the CRC LRPR match. In our case, we wanted to avoid 1) other LR matches, 2) 3-gun matches, and 3) other action discipline matches in that order of priority. Only thing we could come up with violated 2) as our match conflicts with Weld Cty 3-gun. Bottom line: we had three criteria and couldn't meet more than one of them. And, there is considerable overlap between each of the disciplines so it is a challenge. I guess we're blessed but it makes it tough.
I do think Hoser's Tactical Rifle is pretty close to what you're polling for.
Yea, yea...all the other points too...
KK
So this Sunday is our monthly rifle match in Pueblo. See you there.
All the clamoring for a rifle match and 2 months , 2 more matches on the books and no body has shown up . Kinda leads me to believe what I was thinking that the search was for a pistol match shot with a carbine and not a rifle match was the goal all along .
Zak Smith
08-29-2011, 09:16
Yeah, we're not short on rifle matches. You can shoot close range rifle stages at the 3Gun matches, or you can shoot hard medium/long range rifle stages at Pueblo. Or you can shoot one of the various precision rifle matches, shooting from the slab, man-made barricades, or natural terrain- take your pick. Taping long-range paper sucks and makes a match take forever.
quickdraw
08-29-2011, 11:21
All the clamoring for a rifle match and 2 months , 2 more matches on the books and no body has shown up . Kinda leads me to believe what I was thinking that the search was for a pistol match shot with a carbine and not a rifle match was the goal all along .
I went.......... [Beer]
I went.......... [Beer]
You were on sabbatical , that doesn't count .
quickdraw
08-30-2011, 10:32
You were on sabbatical , that doesn't count .
:-D
VNgunfighter
08-31-2011, 13:59
All the clamoring for a rifle match and 2 months , 2 more matches on the books and no body has shown up . Kinda leads me to believe what I was thinking that the search was for a pistol match shot with a carbine and not a rifle match was the goal all along .
Exactly, RW and Hoser will you shoot their Steel Challenge stages with PCC's.
But I don't think they know what they are missing, Armored star, LaRue's and sniper targets, that people just like to hear the hits on.
And RJ is was good to see you with something other than a pistol and a Bolt gun.
quickdraw
08-31-2011, 14:31
Exactly, RW and Hoser will you shoot their Steel Challenge stages with PCC's.
But I don't think they know what they are missing, Armored star, LaRue's and sniper targets, that people just like to hear the hits on.
And RJ is was good to see you with something other than a pistol and a Bolt gun.
:-) Funny thing is I already asked Hoser if I can shoot the match in the future with my bolt gun.... I'll shoot the carbine till Nov (Team Match practice), but after that I'd like to shoot half the rounds in the stages with a bolt rifle...
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