View Full Version : Non-AR black rifles. Thoughts?
I have decided that I want a military/tactical rifle that is not of the AR persuasion. Just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions from some of you who have such a thing. Not really looking for an AK either and would prefer it to be in a small caliber such as .223, 7.62x39, maybe 5.7x28 or 9mm. I don't want to spend the kind of money it takes to get an ACR or a SCAR or a FS2000. Some of the ones I was thinking of are the Sig 556, Vector 93, MSAR, PS90. What are some of my other options? I also like the looks of the VEPR in 7.62x39 even though I said I don't want an AK.
Thoughts? Thanks.
This might seem dumb, but you ever thought about a mini 14? Lots of different calibire configs and you can tact them out.
Just my 2 cents
leatherneck448
09-11-2011, 20:50
Thought about an AR57 upper? Its only 700-800 bucks last I checked. It's chambered in 5.7x28, and takes P90 mags.
PS90 on the cheap?
EDIT, theyre listed at $599 on the interwebs. I guess just that much more affordability
This might seem dumb, but you ever thought about a mini 14? Lots of different calibire configs and you can tact them out.
Just my 2 cents
Not really my thing. Besides, I want something that when I show up to shoot and pull it out not everyone at the range will have one. Nothing I could do with a mini-14 that one of my AR's won't do and magazines are way cheaper for the AR.
Thanks for the thought and opinion though, that's exactly what I wanted. [Beer]
Thought about an AR57 upper? Its only 700-800 bucks last I checked. It's chambered in 5.7x28, and takes P90 mags.
PS90 on the cheap?
Actually, I have given that some thought. I kind of forgot about that option now but I nearly bought one from Machine Gun Tours a while back.
Thanks. [Awesom]
Bailey Guns
09-11-2011, 20:54
Kel-Tec SU-16B/C. Inexpensive, compact, 5.56MM, gas piston, 4.5 pounds, takes any AR mag.
I have a B model. I keep it handy in the home.
El Caballo Loco
09-11-2011, 21:05
I'm in the same boat. I'd love to have an FN FNC (dreamin) but I've also been looking at Galils and FALs.
Fentonite
09-11-2011, 21:05
Speaking of KelTec, I think their bullpup .308 would be a hoot. I know you're looking for a smaller caliber, but check this out:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/
I might need one.
Speaking of KelTec, I think their bullpup .308 would be a hoot. I know you're looking for a smaller caliber, but check this out:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/
I might need one.
The RFB is definitely pretty cool. Might be a little hard to find and a little out of my budget for now though.
Thanks. [Beer]
I got on this thread ready to recommend a fal until I saw the smaller caliber stipulation. HK's like SL8's and conversion kits are expensive. Then for some reason I started thinking another carbine route and I'm saying maybe check out a Kriss. It's a .45 acp that takes glock mags and is a pretty neat gun. I've played with the pistol version and they're very unique guns. I have no idea if that intrests you but it's a different way to go although still probably too pricey. There's also an MSAR. They're pretty cool and different as long as you're not a lefty.
BPTactical
09-11-2011, 21:19
Ray ask yourself what the intended plan for said rifle would be. Are you wanting distance, CQB capabilities or just what?
Pick the right tool for the job.
Main Battle rifles you have the AR10, M1A, HK 91, FAL and a few others.
CommBloc- how about a PSL? Vepyr will cost you.
MSAR is a great little rifle that handles quite well. V93 is rock solid, a lil heavy but a proven design. 556 is a good rifle but piggish in the nose.
Ray ask yourself what the intended plan for said rifle would be. Are you wanting distance, CQB capabilities or just what?
Pick the right tool for the job.
Just looking for a play toy. That's partly why I am ruling out the larger calibers. I don't need the extra recoil or expense of ammunition to play around. It's primary use will be for poking holes in paper at the range out to about 100 yards or so. Maybe 200 yards if I'm feeling frisky. Over the years I have owned quite a few AK's and AR's and even owned a FAL and a HK 91. I just want something I haven't owned or had prior experience with for a new toy.
[Coffee]
Since we're mentioning Kel-Tecs, how about a Sub 2000? They're a lot of fun, they can be had in 9mm and .40 S&W, and they're available in several different magazine configurations. Take a look:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/
Since we're mentioning Kel-Tecs, how about a Sub 2000? They're a lot of fun, they can be had in 9mm and .40 S&W, and they're available in several different magazine configurations. Take a look:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/
Always kind of wanted a Glock mag version of one of those. But I want something just slightly more "exotic" right now.
Once again, thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions. Keep them coming.
DeusExMachina
09-11-2011, 21:38
Out of all those listed, MSAR would be my choice. Caliber (and some magazine) compatibility with AR-15, compact size with a 16" barrel, light weight..
Everyone needs an AK47 or AK74 if you don't have one. The 5.45 caliber is really nice, and cheap.
I want a SBR'd PS90 some day, but expensive ammo makes it kind of silly.
Are Kel-Tec's made in the U.S.A.?
Everyone needs an AK47 or AK74 if you don't have one.
They get too confusing for me nowadays. All this U.S. made receiver crap and x-amount of U.S. made parts. I used to like the days where you could buy one that was all original parts, even the receiver.
Find the right dealer and you can pick up an FS 2000 for a little over $1400, you have to make friends with them more than likely since that is their cost (that's what mine cost me). The MP5 platform is always fun to shoot.
Find the right dealer and you can pick up an FS 2000 for a little over $1400, you have to make friends with them more than likely since that is their cost (that's what mine cost me). The MP5 platform is always fun to shoot.
A. I can't make friends because I 'm kind of an a$$hole.
and
B. I would love some kind of MP5 but there is no way that is in my budget right now. [Tooth]
I saw someone just posted an FS2000 in the classifieds for $1700.
SouthPaw
09-11-2011, 22:26
Find the right dealer and you can pick up an FS 2000 for a little over $1400, you have to make friends with them more than likely since that is their cost (that's what mine cost me).
I saw someone just posted an FS2000 in the classifieds for $1700.
Guess he didn't have a friend when he bought it..[Dunno]
I know it isn't in your calibers but lots of ammo available for goof prices. get a M1a. awesome guns, you can do a lot of mods, excellent accuracy, amazing reliability, great gun!
soldier-of-the-apocalypse
09-11-2011, 22:28
ps90 all day i love those things 5.7 is awesome
Who is familiar with the Galil? Whats the difference between a true Galil and a Golani? Anyone have any first hand experience with the Century Golani? I typically try to steer away from Century stuff.
ok so does it have to be black , poly , military , or are you just looking for a fun new toy ? my new toys are a fr8 an an amd65 , both bad ass although i have not shot the amd im sure it will be a blast
ok so does it have to be black , poly , military , or are you just looking for a fun new toy ? my new toys are a fr8 an an amd65 , both bad ass although i have not shot the amd im sure it will be a blast
Doesn't necessarily have to be black. The FR8 I am ruling out- neat rifle but ultimately still just another Spanish Mauser. As far as the AMD65- that is the most hideous looking abomination of an AK I have seen. No offense meant. Just stating my own personal opinion.
Thank you all for the info.! [Beer]
Doesn't necessarily have to be black. The FR8 I am ruling out- neat rifle but ultimately still just another Spanish Mauser. As far as the AMD65- that is the most hideous looking abomination of an AK I have seen. No offense meant. Just stating my own personal opinion.
Thank you all for the info.! [Beer]
looks like you need an m1 garand and just be done with it (my favorite rifle ever [Tooth] )
I came in here to suggest an XCR, but it's probably out of the price range and I don't know how available they are.
Are Kel-Tec's made in the U.S.A.?
Yes, they're made in Cocoa, Florida. My experience with their customer service is limited to calling them with questions, but they have always been top-notch with their time and information. They offered to disassemble, clean, inspect, replace parts if needed, reassemble, lube, and test-fire a used P-11 I bought. They also have a lifetime warranty. Disclaimer: I do not work for Kel-Tec. I'm just a happy customer. I own the following:
P-32
P11 with P-40 conversion
PLR-16
PMR-30
Sub-2000 in Glock 17 configuration
Not a lemon in the bunch.
A. I can't make friends because I 'm kind of an a$$hole.
and
B. I would love some kind of MP5 but there is no way that is in my budget right now. [Tooth]
I saw someone just posted an FS2000 in the classifieds for $1700.
What is your budget exactly?
BPTactical
09-12-2011, 05:37
A. I can't make friends because I 'm kind of an a$$hole.
[ROFL1][ROFL1]
Now that's funny right there.
MSAR for the "something different" factor. Turn's heads everywhere you take it.
Galil/Golani- basically an AK in 5.56. A little on the heavy side, well built. It loses points for lack of parts interchangability, nothing from an AK will work on them, proprietary magazines which can be hard to find. You can find adapters which will allow AR mags but they are iffy on reliable function. The Golani is not built from IMI parts but rather South African R4 parts. I had one of the Golanis when they first released them. Decent rifle and was pretty accurate but mine was blessed with the ORF soft reciever, lugs started to show signs of defoRming around 500 rounds. Sent it back to Century and they replaced it no questions, shot the new one then ended up trading it off.
Don't totally discount Century-I don't see near the numbers of "Beaver Assembled" stuff I used to. I think they have snugged up their quality as of late. Hell Ray, my best shooting AK is a Century Yugo. Early one but still a Century rifle.
Just look them over real well and if something doesn't seem right, hand it back and check out another one.
Currently , I do not have AR15 platform. However, looking into getting SR556.
From OPs lists, I have FS2000 and PS90.
THey are both great.
What is your budget exactly?
I was hoping to keep it under $1200 or so. I know it kind of limits me. I was hoping to get a good deal on a used piece.
BPTactical
09-12-2011, 10:45
Ray if you decide you want to take a serious look at the MSAR give me a yell. Although mine isn't for sale you are welcome to check it out in detail.
DeusExMachina
09-12-2011, 10:59
Ray if you decide you want to take a serious look at the MSAR give me a yell. Although mine isn't for sale you are welcome to check it out in detail.
God forbid you shoot it, you'll want one instantly...
I still want one after shooting BP's. :(
BPTactical
09-12-2011, 11:09
God forbid you shoot it, you'll want one instantly...
I still want one after shooting BP's. :(
[Muaha]
hollohas
09-12-2011, 11:43
Ruger Scout Rifle (http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/index.html)?
http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/images/6803.jpg
PS - I don't have one but I WANT one!
DeusExMachina
09-12-2011, 11:47
Whoa! A Ruger I like?!
Ruger Scout Rifle (http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/index.html)?
http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/images/6803.jpg
PS - I don't have one but I WANT one!
I have dirty fantasies about that rifle.
islandermyk
09-12-2011, 14:04
B. I would love some kind of MP5 but there is no way that is in my budget right now. [Tooth]
Somewhere in this website there's a MP5 model that runs for $1300...
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storecategory93.aspx and some other interesting ones as well...[Beer]
Somewhere in this website there's a MP5 model that runs for $1300...
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storecategory93.aspx and some other interesting ones as well...[Beer]
Found it. Pretty cool. 9mm with a folding stock.Just wish I knew more about the company or the manufacturer.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/VR5S2.jpg
Ray if you decide you want to take a serious look at the MSAR give me a yell. Although mine isn't for sale you are welcome to check it out in detail.
Might have to fondle it next time I am over your way. [Coffee]
Oh, and I could take a look at that MSAR too. [ROFL1]
Seriously, is it the one with the forward assist? Seems like that thing might be right against your nose. I will have to check it out. Also, I have heard some of them have had some feeding/cycling/extraction/ejection issues of some sort. I would assume a competent gunsmith could correct these issues if they arise?
islandermyk
09-12-2011, 18:57
Found it. Pretty cool. 9mm with a folding stock.Just wish I knew more about the company or the manufacturer.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/VR5S2.jpg
Sorry for steering you off on the wrong path on suggesting getting a "VR" MP5 clone. I just read that they use a solid LSC flat (I hear it's good stuff), but Velocity Arms uses a trunnion system that doesn't use HK's blow back design. Another words.. this one would be a turd that can't be polished.[Coffee] Coharie and Special Weapons are just a few MP5 clone builder names that can mingle with HK parts. Gunbroker has a few left worth taking a look at... at least something that's in the budget [Beer]
I have a Coharie CA94 (HK94 clone)... it's freaken fun as hell and cheap to shoot. You could actually hear the round hit the paper target[ROFL1] I also see as reliable as an AK due to its similar design...
Well... good luck with your decision and find!
BPTactical
09-12-2011, 20:20
Might have to fondle it next time I am over your way. [Coffee]
Oh, and I could take a look at that MSAR too. [ROFL1]
Seriously, is it the one with the forward assist? Seems like that thing might be right against your nose. I will have to check it out. Also, I have heard some of them have had some feeding/cycling/extraction/ejection issues of some sort. I would assume a competent gunsmith could correct these issues if they arise?
Mmm-OK, that first part hits about 110 on the WeirdOmeter[Tooth]
Mine does not have the FA. From what I was able to ascertain from MicroTech is this one is the 3rd generation. I picked mine up used and it did have an issue when I first got it. One of the "legs" on the bolt was cracked. MSAR actually wanted the rifle back so they could figure out why it had cracked-they sent a prepaid box so off it went. About a week and a half later I got it back with a new barrel, gas piston, bolt carrier, bolt(chrome upgrade) and 3 10 round mags in a factory box with paperwork. The guy at MSAR said he thought the prior owner had either shot some really nasty hot handloads or some military ammo that may have been too hot.
The best thing was the cost-Nada- they covered it as warranty.
I Have had no issues whatsoever with mine since-it has run flawlessly.
Fist_gonzo
09-12-2011, 20:57
[ROFL1][ROFL1]
Now that's funny right there.
MSAR for the "something different" factor. Turn's heads everywhere you take it.
Galil/Golani- basically an AK in 5.56. A little on the heavy side, well built. It loses points for lack of parts interchangability, nothing from an AK will work on them, proprietary magazines which can be hard to find. You can find adapters which will allow AR mags but they are iffy on reliable function. The Golani is not built from IMI parts but rather South African R4 parts. I had one of the Golanis when they first released them. Decent rifle and was pretty accurate but mine was blessed with the ORF soft reciever, lugs started to show signs of defoRming around 500 rounds. Sent it back to Century and they replaced it no questions, shot the new one then ended up trading it off.
Don't totally discount Century-I don't see near the numbers of "Beaver Assembled" stuff I used to. I think they have snugged up their quality as of late. Hell Ray, my best shooting AK is a Century Yugo. Early one but still a Century rifle.
Just look them over real well and if something doesn't seem right, hand it back and check out another one.
+1 on the century yugo, love my m70 ab2 puts my arsenal to shame, what about a spanish ctme?
stevelkinevil
09-12-2011, 22:02
Mmm-OK, that first part hits about 110 on the WeirdOmeter[Tooth]
Mine does not have the FA. From what I was able to ascertain from MicroTech is this one is the 3rd generation. I picked mine up used and it did have an issue when I first got it. One of the "legs" on the bolt was cracked. MSAR actually wanted the rifle back so they could figure out why it had cracked-they sent a prepaid box so off it went. About a week and a half later I got it back with a new barrel, gas piston, bolt carrier, bolt(chrome upgrade) and 3 10 round mags in a factory box with paperwork. The guy at MSAR said he thought the prior owner had either shot some really nasty hot handloads or some military ammo that may have been too hot.
The best thing was the cost-Nada- they covered it as warranty.
I Have had no issues whatsoever with mine since-it has run flawlessly.
Is this before or after the bankruptcy? I really want one but have read some scary stuff about QC and customer service. Sounds like yours was good though. Had my eye on an OD one for a while but don't like the idea of dropping that kind of coin on a possible problem child.
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