Swagler's Challenge

[cstone]

Based on some recent discussion on the board, I would like to see if there is any interest in a little informal match for bragging rights only.

Here is what I am proposing: A 65 yard silhouette match set up at Pawnee Grasslands to take place on Saturday, September 24, 2011, beginning at 9:00 AM.

At a range of 65 yards and in your normal every day carry configuration; at the command to fire, you will draw and fire all rounds as quickly as possible. No reloads, no alibis, no movement or shooting other than from a standing position.

Targets will be PPC silhouettes with normal points as marked on the targets (5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0). Ties will be decided by the fastest time. There is no time limit to fire all rounds.

-5 points for a miss on the target
-10 points for miss not on the target

Is there any interest out there for this?

[cstone]

Byte just mentioned that the Tanner Gun Show is that weekend. Any other dates available? Since I don't normally go to gun shows, I may go up to Pawnee next weekend anyway just to see what I can put on paper.

Any other locations anyone would like to suggest?

I'm also not opposed to other courses of fire. Personally, I would rather see something that engages each of us as we currently carry. I don't really see any point in watching lots of ammunition and guns that are never or could never be carried on a daily basis used to show what great bench rest shooters they are. Everyone carries differently and probably does not always carry the exact same thing every day. There are days when I have an extra magazine and there are days when all I have is what is in the gun. Even if I had an extra magazine, and I engaged a target at 65 yards, I would not reload my last magazine and continue to engage a target that I had not already stopped. That would leave me empty when the fight came within my normal shooting distance.

I'm also concerned about setting time limits. I would rather hit the target in 10 seconds rather than miss it completely in 2 seconds.

If no one is interested, I completely understand. Even if I were to shoot perfect scores at 65 yards (no worries because that doesn't happen at 25 yards) I still wouldn't engage targets on the street at that distance. I don't see this exercise as any kind of proof of ability. It is a static course to show each shooter what happens when they push themselves outside of their normal training. It also would be nice to do it as a group so that we can at least say on a given day, who can walk the walk, as well as they talk the talk. [Beer]

[Irving]

I'm unavailable that day, but it sure sounds fun.

[Great-Kazoo]

I already posted this in the GD Pistol challenge thread.

We should only be allowed to get off 2 maybe 3 tops. The scenario while shooting at a target, does not have it shooting back at us. Therefore A SET Number Of Rounds should be the norm. Anyone can dump 7-17 rounds down range, not everyone would be doing a full mag dump at a target that in real life be returning fire.
Having a timer also proves nothing again in Real Life we are not shooting against a clock, would be shooting for our and someone else's life.

I do think the extra targets should be set up. not so much for multiple shooters, more to be utilized as civilians. They could be close enough to the target width wise, set back say another 10 yards? this way we can see for those shooting a full mag how many counts of manslaughter you would be charged with.

No matter what everyone agrees to i will do 2 rounds, as that is what i feel at a long distance you would have a chance to shoot before the aggressor turned their gun on you.

I will also bring a tape measure for those who think this should be a dick measuring contest.

Either way contact me as i am in. cannot make it an all day event.

[trlcavscout]

I would be in but I work saturdays. Sun/mon/tue I would be in!

[cstone]

How about three strings of fire:

String 1:

65 yards, standing, from the holster, three rounds, no time limit but timed for any ties on points.

String 2:

65 yards, standing, from the holster, all rounds fired, no reloads or alibis, no time limit but timed for ties on points.

String 3:

65 yards, from standing and holstered, draw and assume any position (standing, sitting, kneeling, prone), all rounds fired, no reload or alibis, no time limit but timed for ties on points.

I am also looking to identify a good location at Pawnee. I normally shoot at the old missle site if anyone is familiar with that.

I will plan on getting there as close to 8:00 AM as possible. I will set up three target stands. One shoot, two "no shoots." Still thinking points as marked on the target and -5 for miss on target, -10 for miss off target, and maybe -20 for hits on "no shoot" targets. I am already seeing negative scores for this course [ROFL1]

If anyone has a better location in mind, please post it. I am also open to all suggestions. No need to reply whether you are coming or not on Saturday. There is no cost to shoot. I will supply targets, stands and cardboard. You have to show up with what you are shooting, and again just to be clear, this is meant for what you carry everyday, or would if you could. I will have a sign-in on hand so that I can distribute results (not required), and would like to start shooting by 9:00 AM.

If you don't have a regular everyday carry but a reasonable pistol (no Contenders or AR pistols, etc...) you can shoot from the low ready with a 3 or 5 second penalty (to be decided at the match) added to your time.

Anyone who can provide tape measures, range finders, or PACT timers would be appreciated.

This is informal and should be fun. I am looking forward to seeing some of you out there. If it goes off well, I'm sure we could do it again for those who are not able to make it. [Coffee]

[Great-Kazoo]

I have located my range finder and will be there saturday.

[Mick-Boy]

Too far north for me. You fellas have fun.

[Byte Stryke]

I know of at least 4 that wont be there due to Tanner

[Great-Kazoo]

I know of at least 4 that wont be there due to Tanner

They can't go to tanner on sunday? I would like those who said they can hit the 100 yds target, consistently or willing to take the shot and hit the target be present. Perhaps a second go round the following weekend.
I belong to a private range out east of here, west of pawnee. Only allowed a few "guest" per visit, if some one would like to do 100yd steel targets week day afternoons.
Where's the guy who got this ball rolling, hope he's going. I know a few folks can do the challenge 9/10 times, it would be interesting if some of them are not identifying themself as board members, you know who you are:)

[cstone]

WHO - Anyone that is interested in testing their ability at taking what would normally be a long shot with a normal, everyday carry gun, either concealed or open carry.

WHAT - Informal three string shooting match.

String 1:

65 yards, standing, from the holster, three rounds, no time limit but timed for any ties on points.

String 2:

65 yards, standing, from the holster, all rounds fired, no reloads or alibis, no time limit but timed for ties on points.

String 3:

65 yards, from standing and holstered, draw and assume any position (standing, sitting, kneeling, prone), all rounds fired, no reload or alibis, no time limit but timed for ties on points.

There will be one PPC shoot target scored 0-5 points. There will be two "no shoot" or innocent targets nearby. A miss but on the shoot target will be -5 points. A miss and not on any target will be -10 points. A hit anywhere on the "no shoot" target will be -20 points.

Again, this match is meant for everyday carry guns. You can bring your AR pistols and 8" scoped Peacemakers, but please don't tell us that you walk around with that strapped on your hip everyday. The BS flag will be thrown. Most people carrying auto pistols come in right around 5" or less for barrel length, and that is one of the things that makes this course of fire challenging.

If you Open Carry, then please come that way. If you carry concealed, then you won't be alone. If you currently do neither and don't have a holster, you can start from the low ready, but 3 seconds will be added to your time just too even things out.

You can see that there are not a lot of rounds to this course, but bring as much as you want. Hearing and eye protection, pistol, holster, and ammo should be all you need. There is no cost to shoot.

WHERE - Pawnee Grasslands and here are the directions. If this doesn't help you, PM me here and I we can talk about what to look for. It is the Grasslands, so landmarks are few and far between.

Put these coordinates into Google Maps:
40.649082,-104.383839

Then look about 2000 meters north of Rt 14 and you will see what looks a little like a construction site. This is an old, decommissioned Atlas missile site. There is a barbed wire gate about 50-75 meters after you turn off Rt14. Please leave the gate the way you find it, which should be closed.

WHEN - Saturday, September 24, 2011. Arrive between 8 and 9 AM. I'd like to be shooting by 9 AM.


WHY - On Tuesday, September 6, 2011, an individual carrying an AK47 began shooting people at an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV. Here is a link to a local news story on the incident. http://www.rgj.com/article/20110907/NEWS01/109070361/Gunman-Carson-City-IHOP-shooting-reloaded-least-once

Eduardo Sencion parked a blue minivan with a "Support our Troops" yellow ribbon decal in the parking lot between Local's BBQ and the IHOP in south Carson City. It was just before 9 a.m. Tuesday.

Local's owner Ralph Swagler was standing inside his restaurant with his son, Ryan, when they heard gunfire.

It was the sound of Sencion shooting a woman standing next to a motorcycle in the parking lot. She was the first of Sencion's 11 victims in his shooting spree.

They saw Sencion walk into the IHOP. Swagler's son started to lock the door.

Ralph Swagler stayed down in his restaurant until the shots stopped.

"I had my pistol; I wasn't going up against an automatic rifle," Ralph Swagler said. "I'm sorry. I wish I would have shot him in the back now as he was going toward IHOP, but I wasn't clear on the situation."

The distance from Local's BBQ and the IHOP has been estimated at approximately 65 yards. Ralph Swagler will have to live with the decisions he made that day as we all do with every decision we make each and every day.

There are some who question Swagler's decision and push for those of us who carry firearms to challenge ourselves with our training so that we can do more than Swagler did that morning. There are some who say that 65 yard shooting with daily carry pistols is easy and they have done it many times.

This is what Swagler's Challenge is. If you can take that shot and consistently engage targets from that distance, show us. If you don't know if you can take that shot, come find out. If you are certain that most people can't consistently engage targets at that distance, here is a chance to practice. Something for everyone and all it will cost you is some time, gas money, and ammunition. Isn't that how we would all like to spend our free time anyway?

Any questions, please PM me here. I will do my best to get back to you in a timely fashion.

[blacklabel]

I wish I didn't have to work. I'd be there just so that no one else would have to worry about coming in last.

Hope you guys have a good time.

[cstone]

I wish I didn't have to work. I'd be there just so that no one else would have to worry about coming in last.

Hope you guys have a good time.

Sorry, I've already called dibs on last [ROFL1]

Maybe next time? Start thinking of some dates that work for you.

[cstone]

Just a reminder for anyone who would like to join us and see what their everyday carry pistol will do at 65 yards. This Saturday and shooting by 9:00 AM. Just show up the way you normally carry and have some ears and eyes along with some extra ammunition.

No fee and the targets are free!

[trlcavscout]

Ok let me see if I have any sick days left [ROFL1]

[Great-Kazoo]

Ok let me see if I have any sick days left [ROFL1]

Turn it in to a make up day, sick or not you better be there. What are you thinking of bringing?
You have been through more hand guns than i wives:)

[trlcavscout]

Turn it in to a make up day, sick or not you better be there. What are you thinking of bringing?
You have been through more hand guns than i wives:)


Glock 17. I didnt think the "dirty hairy" special would be fair [Beer]

I still gott look this place up, the only silo I know of out that way is the manned station with the barracks?

[Great-Kazoo]

Glock 17. I didnt think the "dirty hairy" special would be fair [Beer]

I still gott look this place up, the only silo I know of out that way is the manned station with the barracks?

i google mapped it and easy to find, until tomorrow morn when i am driving all over weld cty.

[trlcavscout]

Ok me and USMC 2111 will be there between 9-9:30

[Great-Kazoo]

Ok me and USMC 2111 will be there between 9-9:30

Bring money for the real betting.:0

[sneakerd]

I want to know what happened here- and was Atrain there?

[cstone]

Name String 1 String 2 String 3 Total Hit Percentage

Veritas -10 -35 0 -45 48%

Travis -25 -35 -25 -85 15%

Jim -30 -10 0 -40 40%

Philip -30 -50 -5 -85 23%

cstone 5 -5 0 0 61%

Mike -15 -35 -20 -65 31%

Veritas (2nd) 15 -10 25 30 76%

The first bold number is total points for all three strings. The second bold number is the percentage of hits for total rounds fired.

Handguns fired
Springfield 1911
Walther P99
Sig P250 subcompact
S&W Sigma 40VE
Glock 17
Glock 19
Sig P229

The weather was sunny and warm with a nice breeze from the north, right in the face of the shooters. The 65 yard line was verified with a rangefinder. The targets were transitional II silhouettes used for the Practical Pistol Course. They are actual life sized silhouettes. The targets were scored as 5 points for any hit inside the silhouette. Any hit on the target outside the silhouette was scored as a negative 5 points. Any round fired which completely missed the target was scored as a negative 10 points.

As you can see from the scores, man sized targets, at 65 yards, under better than real life, real stress conditions are not that easy to hit for average shooters. Given the great responsibility everyone has for each round they fire and where that round goes after it is fired, the average shooter should think long and hard before taking any shot with a pistol at this distance. I will leave it up to the other member of the group to comment on what they learned from this experience. I cannot personally think of a situation where taking a shot with my every day carry pistol, at this distance, would be a wise decision. You of course will have to make your own decision if that time ever comes.

Stay safe!

[trlcavscout]

I learned takeing 1 shot on target is less negative points then 3-5 shots [ROFL1]

But it was fun and hopefully we can do it again in the future. I had a good time meeting new people, BSing, shooting, and coming in last [Rant1]

[TFOGGER]

Enquiring minds want to know..


http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/ear.gif

[sneakerd]

My next Q would be who was firing what pistol, and screen names for all!

[cstone]

My next Q would be who was firing what pistol, and screen names for all!

I know but I don't kiss and tell [ROFL1]

I shot my P250 subcompact, with .357 Sig, Speer GDHP. I was actually surprised that I was able to get some hits at 65 yards with a 3.5" barrel. Then again, maybe I just got lucky [Coffee]

[sneakerd]

Atrain? Come on yer killin me.

[trlcavscout]

Atrain? Come on yer killin me.

[ROFL1]

I was shooting a Glock 17 with WWB.

[sneakerd]

[JRope]

[cstone]

Atrain? Come on yer killin me.

Unless he has another screen name, Atrain did not participate.

I would like to thank the other guys who showed up. We had great weather and everyone exercised good range safety. Not even any minor injuries [Flower] I had a great time and look forward to shooting with everyone in the near future.

Be safe[Beer]

[Great-Kazoo]

P99 non-S&W early 3 rounds per target, 4 rounds 1 target

[Veritas]

I shot the first string using my 1911 and for the second I borrowed Chuck's P229.

[Veritas]

Had great time shooting with all who came out. Can't wait for the next outing....

[blacklabel]

Sounds like you guys had a good time. Hopefully I can make it out for the next outing.