Issues zeroing at 100m

[Eggysrun]

I need some shooting advice fellas.

I'm shooting a remington 700 vssf with a choate stock, Leupold 6.5-20x Scope and I think I'm having issues with my bipod.

I've got my scope zero'd at 50m to a nickle, but when I've got my target out to 100m my bipod's wobble is killing me. I'm getting tight shots within a quarter but they're more on the right side of my bullseye regardless of the corrections I'm making.

At 50m I was using 6.5x mag, and 100m 20x mag. The bipod is on good, but the rifle can twist or rotate to the left and right and this I believe is hurting my shooting. I wish I could simply lock the bipod so it doesn't move...or maybe it's just my shooting? I don't know the brand of bipod I have, it came with the gun.

I've got a decent shooting stability, but I suppose I could go crazy with some sandbags, etc.

This is my first long range precision rifle, perhaps I'm expecting too much accuracy from the ammo I'm using for 100m shots?

[BPTactical]

Chances are the bipod is exerting pressure on the forend which is exerting pressure on the barrel. Take a dollar bill, fold it in half and attempt to pass it between the stock and barrel along it's entire length. It should travel unhindered. Now with the bipod employed exert a little downward pressure on the rifle and redo the dollar bill thing.
Anything hanging up?
Action screws torqued to 65 in/lbs?
Pull the action from the stock-any indicators that anything is moving around?

[DFBrews]

I need some shooting advice fellas.

I'm shooting a remington 700 vssf with a choate stock, Leupold 6.5-20x Scope and I think I'm having issues with my bipod.

I've got my scope zero'd at 50m to a nickle, but when I've got my target out to 100m my bipod's wobble is killing me. I'm getting tight shots within a quarter but they're more on the right side of my bullseye regardless of the corrections I'm making.

At 50m I was using 6.5x mag, and 100m 20x mag. The bipod is on good, but the rifle can twist or rotate to the left and right and this I believe is hurting my shooting. I wish I could simply lock the bipod so it doesn't move...or maybe it's just my shooting? I don't know the brand of bipod I have, it came with the gun.

I've got a decent shooting stability, but I suppose I could go crazy with some sandbags, etc.

This is my first long range precision rifle, perhaps I'm expecting too much accuracy from the ammo I'm using for 100m shots?

plus one to what BP said another thing to consider do you really need your magnification at 20 at a hundred yards? Try leaving it at 6.5 and see if you can do better.

[SuperiorDG]

Try dry firing with a quarter balanced on the end of the barrel. If it keeps falling off it could be you are pulling the trigger a little.

[C Ward]

What brand bipod is it ? Are you shooting prone or off a bench ? Are You preloading the bipod ? Are You running a rear bag ?

The Harris swivel bipod con be adjusted for tension and better yet have a Podloc installed and be totally locked down stocks .

If you are getting good groups at 50 with the same technique this more than likely shooter induced and a position issue .

Come out to one of the long range matches at PWSA or CRC and someone can help get it sorted out between everybody there there's probably a century's worth of experience on the line .

The HS stock on that gun is plenty stiff enough and more than likely forend flex is not the issue . I know plenty of guy's winning the long range tactical matches with HS

[C Ward]

The proper torque for the action screws per Remington , on the website in the FAQ section , for the VS series rifles is 45 inch pounds NOT 65 .
The stock screws and bottom metal is not up to the task as the screws stretch and the aluminum floor plate will deform and / or crack . The often quoted 65 inch pounds comes from the military rifles that have had the screws replaced and steel or upgraded aluminum bottom metal installed .

[SA Friday]

Torque smorque... if it was touching the barrel or causing stress in the action, you would see it at 50 yds too.

Dial back the mag to about 10x and work on shooting technique. If the swivel point on the bipod is simply too much for you to overcome then sell it and go to a different bipod.
Frank at snipershide has multiple videos on line about proper shooting technique that can help. Check them out and then do some dry firing at home to get the techniques down before youir next range trip.

[C Ward]

Torque smorque... if it was touching the barrel or causing stress in the action, you would see it at 50 yds too.

Dial back the mag to about 10x and work on shooting technique. If the swivel point on the bipod is simply too much for you to overcome then sell it and go to a different bipod.
Frank at snipershide has multiple videos on line about proper shooting technique that can help. Check them out and then do some dry firing at home to get the techniques down before youir next range trip.


Agreed , this is almost certainly a shooter induced issue ,as addressed in my first post .

The second post was to correct the bad information that keeps being put up before somebody trashes there bottom metal .

[Eggysrun]

No clue what kind of bipod I got. Bellow is a picture and a vid of what's going on with the Bipod.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/cmarkl/IMAG0653.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDv3yAr09nU

C Ward when/where are these PWSA/CRC events? I'll definately check them out.

I'm pretty sure this bipod isn't good for me but again like you guys said it's in myself (the shooter) as well. I was shooting off my truck bed, I was using various boxes and sandbags to stabilize the bipod/stock. Don't know the name of it, but I was using that screw on the end of the stock on the bottom to lower and rise the stock precisely.

[SA Friday]

Pretty sure you have a Versa-pod model 2 there.

The PWSA match is ran by hoser and is the third Sat of every month down in Pueblo West. It's called the prairie dog match as you shoot at PD targets. The CRC match is coming up this weekend (I think), and is at the CO Rifle Club in Byers. There are threads for both in the sports section on here.

[BPTactical]

The second post was to correct the bad information that keeps being put up before somebody trashes there bottom metal .


C Ward and SAFriday-
I would like to thank you for calling me on incorrect information that I have put forth. I most certainly would hate to see a member damage their item because I gave incorrect information. I will be the first to admit I don't know everything and yes, I am wrong here.
You gave me good cause to do a little poking around on action screw torque and the two certainties regarding it:
1-There is no absolute optimum action screw torque.
2- The absolute that is critical is that whatever the torque is, it needs to be equal for both screws.

65 in/lbs is "military standard" for the M40.
65 in/lbs is what HS Precision calls out regardless of what bottom metal is on the rifle.
McMillian calls 25-50 in/lbs regardless of bottom metal.
Bell and Carlson calls 50 in/lbs for bedding block stocks and 40 in/lbs for Carbolite stocks.
GreyBull Precision calls for "equally snug never to exceed 60 in/lbs".
Remington is all over the board- Synthetic and wood stocks "Hand tight" usually30-35 in/lbs- Sendero and "P" models up to 45 in/lbs. 40XS models 65-70 in/lbs. 40X rimfires 40 in/lbs.

Probably the best answer was from Greg at GreTan Rifles: "just tight enough to keep the action from moving in the stock, some work just fine with 25 in/lbs while other identical rifles need 45 in/lbs". He suggested to start at 25 and after a few shots pull the action and check for signs of movement. Increase in 5 in/lb increments until there is no indicator of movement and STOP. If the rifle NEEDS 65 in/lbs to hold it snug then there is a problem with the bedding-something is moving and that needs to be addressed before anything else can happen.

The stock itself is the biggest variable. Pillar bedded and Aluminum blocked stocks can stand a little higher torque than a tupperware or wood stock.
And yes C Ward, @ 65 in/lbs the risk of damaging the stock bottom metal exists. Not to mention the stock Remington screws will stretch and then they will never stay tight regardless of torque setting. Aftermarket screws are typically better quality and will withstand higher torque values.

Another thing that is critical is the screws need to both be at equal values. What we are trying to achieve is a stress free mating of action to stock. If the screws are unequally tightened that stress free mating is virtually impossible to achieve.

I was wrong, you guys were right.
Thank you for calling my attention to it.[Beer]

[SA Friday]

Whoa dude. Not calling you out on anything. Just saying he would see deviation at 50 yds also if it was mechanical.

[BUC303]

If you are hitting all of your shots in a quarter size hole at 100 yards just to the right of the bull I don't think your bipod is the problem, you are probably pulling with the trigger finger. Unless you are left handed I would put money on that being your problem. If you are not preloading the bipod correctly the gun can jump around but you can still be relatively accurate if you are doing everything else correctly. If that is the case, it really just screws your sight picture and the chance of a fast follow up shot.

Make sure you are using the pad of your index finger, not the knuckle and squeeze the trigger straight back and hold. You don't want a choppy pull and release, you can hold it until you see the point of impact. Dry firing practice (with snap caps or the like) will probably work wonders for you. Pick a point and put your crosshairs on it and practice squeezing the trigger. Your crosshairs should not move from that point. This is also an easy way to find out if you are flinching or closing your eyes while you are shooting. I have heard of guys who do this with a laser boresighter as well and put your crosshairs on the laser mark, and if it moves all over the place you need practice. I do it out of my sliding glass door in the back yard on a spot I marked on my fence.

If you start getting good at dry firing but still have issues at the range try to blind load your rifle and throw a snap cap or two in with live rounds. If you are jerky when you hit that snap cap or close your eyes when you pull the trigger you are going to know it instantly.

Here is a link to a video that illustrates trigger control better. If you watch closely when he uses the knuckle the tip of his finger wraps around the trigger, so he is not getting the straight back pull you want. I believe he said there was a .5 MOA difference at 300 yards using the knuckle vs. the pad, and that is from a "professional shooter." (I don't think he refers to himself as such but it is not just a hobby for him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S72ehttwFxw&feature=player_embedded


Try that and report back

[quickdraw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S72ehttwFxw&feature=player_embedded



Or you could come out to the CRC match like C Ward suggested and ask SHLowlight (Frank) himself..... ;-)

[SuperiorDG]

Or you could come out to the CRC match like C Ward suggested and ask SHLowlight (Frank) himself..... ;-)

I've been to a few of the CRC matches and I second that they are great to learn. A great bunch of shooters and folks in attendance.

[C Ward]

Looking at the picture the bipod is a Versapod or one of the copies , the USA made ones are good quality but the import ones tended to be crap .
The bipod it self is a copy of the Parker Hale design and there is no way with out rigging something to tighten the wobble . There is nothing wrong with the design and some of the guys I shoot with shoot them well .
The PH style bipods are just too wobbly for my tastes and I run a Harris swivel with a Podloc , you can loosen the pivot to level the rifle and then lock it down solid .

Also looking at the picture the forend looks to be from a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock , cant say for sure without seeing the whole thing . Its an injection molded stock with an aluminum bedding block built in . It's a good rigid stock that a lot of people poopoo because of the name .

It is really hard to diagnose position / technique issues with out watching the shooter . Some stuff to try first ,

Get as square and straight behind the gun as is comfortable , the more the recoil travels in a straight line through the body the better .

Preload the bipod , this is especially important with the PH style bipods as this is what " locks " the wobble down .

When all possible don't put the gun into a hard on hard contact situation , like the steel feet on the bipod to the truck bed or bench top . Get your belly in the dirt or put something in between like a piece of carpet or moving blanket .

Dry fire tell you can't stand it and then do it some more .


There is a very large and active long range shooting community on the front range and info on the matches can be found here ,
http://coloradomultigun.com/
http://sportingriflematch.com/
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482083#Post2482083
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=315062#Post315062
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=32563#Post32563
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37424
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6763

There are also to local sources for training ,
http://thunderbeastarms.com/training/
http://www.precisionrifleworkshop.com/prwcivilian.html

Both being taught by active competitive and military and or LE shooters .

The best advice is to come out to the matches as at any one time there are everything from beginners to distinguished shooters from all back rounds from IT guys to SF snipers . We all started somewhere and always help out the guys looking to learn .

[Eggysrun]

Thanks for the great advice guys. I will try to make it to the next event to get some more FTF input on my shooting.

[smchop]

Could be canting the rifle also, not so noticeable at 50 but showing up at 100. Make sure your scope is level in the rings and level on the horizon. I never saw the post mentioning what caliber so could be anticipation of recoil also. Just an idea.