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[GearHead]

American Muscle Forever!
Import suck.
I was sick last week and couldn't engage the Domestic vs Import debate but I'm ready now.. Bring it!

[TheSparkens]

Without question, the only muscle is American muscle every thing else is just freaking rice. [poke]

[HunterCO]

I don't think there was any debate over USA muscle it was rather daily drivers the car to get you to and from work. In a daily driver Asian cars win hands down.

Now if you’re talking horse power obviously nothing can touch American muscle. My 73 firebird with a 454 BB chevy full interior and glass 3800 lbs. runs high 11's in the quarter at bandi. Its street legal I use to run tower road, monaco, in longmont ran woodland and the dog pound had a great time.

I am getting to be an old bastage and would not ever think of street racing again plus it is different now. Back in the day I lived to street race but we were smart about it and people had some serious hardware. Now it's just jackass kids with slow cars killing people. Hell tower road the cops would come and watch it was a great time.

I can assure you I am not knocking American Muscle but when it comes to a daily driver no American car can ever compete.

[GearHead]

Ok, let's talk daily drivers. (cause I'll take my 68 Cam over any civic)
True the US big three stepped on their own stick. Quality dropped and prices when up. Started in the 70s. But, all three have greatly improved on quality and can compete with the foreign manufactures today.

I say support our US companies to help them become stronger. They won’t make the same mistakes as in the past.

Argument: But my Toyota was made in Fremont CA. So what? 64% of all foreign cars sold in the US were assembled in the US. Nice, thank you foreign regimes. But, all the parts were manufactured abroad. Plus the profits from cars sold benefit foreign interest.

Argument: My Focus was assembled in Mexico. This is the exception, not the rule. Vettes are still manufactured in Bowling Green, KY and F150 are still made in Detroit. Your US dollar is not staying in Mexico, if it were, we wouldn’t be having an immigration problem.

Argument: But the US parts are manufactured abroad. Not all. And the major portion of the dollar you spend STAYS in the US, compared to an import.

Yes the lines are blurry. Yes, imports have their advantages. But, so do US made vehicles. For example, parts aren’t as expensive.

The number one thing that bugs me about the big three is; they have a large stake in the oil industry. This is a conflict of interest. Why does my 02 F150 get the same gas mileage as an 86 F150? No incentive to improve. The foreign competition will change this too. Even the JAMA (Japan Auto Manufacturing Assoc) companies could be doing better here. Take a look at their Hybrids. 40mpg? That’s it? Look at the Hybrid clubs and their successful modifications to increase fuel efficiencies to 60+. Don’t tell me that these large corporations don’t have these technologies.

[JasonFRC]

Not to start a flame war here, but the comments above are just silly.

American muscle has it's place, but there is also a place for 700 horsepower 4 bangers too.

http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6941&page=2&pp=10

That's my brother. It's a 1990 Eagle Talon. It's a 2.3 liter with a big turbo on it. He uses E85 too. Full interior, 3300 lbs. All wheel drive.

Myself? I'd LOVE to have an old Camaro, but I've done the Import thing too. I own a '99 Corvette now. They're all cool in their own way. Fast is fast.

All I can say for daily drivers... Buy what makes you happy. If it's a VW Jetta, so be it. Every car has it's drawbacks, and faults. I currently drive a '98 Volvo V70XC. You want to talk about a car that will nickel and dime you to death! That's my business, I repair Volvos. When someone wants reliability, I recommend Honda, not Volvo. Cars are so Global now, most companies are so Multi-National, it's difficult to dicern where their interests lie. Volvos have a TON of Japanese parts now, as well as a transmission designed by GM. Volvo's P2 chassis is shared by Mazda, Ford, Land Rover. How's that for confusing?

[GearHead]

Yep, you can get 700hp from a 4banner. At 4 or 5 times the cost as a small block V8 and that will only go down the track 4 - 5 times before you need to rebuild. I can do the same thing with a Cavalier or Focus. But com-on, really, you would take a 700hp Talon over a 67 Stingray, 65 Goat, 68 Roadrunner, 67 GT Mustang? Really? (youth today :roll: )

Daily drivers, yep the crossbreeding has made the lines blurry, and each has their pros & cons. My point is to support the US Auto Industry. Hey, I'm opened minded.. Convince me to buy an import. (my wife did it. she bought a Kia)

Oh, one more thing, it was interesting that your example was a Talon. An American car company designed and built by a Japanese company.

[Hoser]

Yeah. Well. My 2004 Bug gets almost 50 MPG and you would never expect it to be full of guns. Pot or coke maybe, but not guns.

And the heated seats are nice...

So there.

[westy1970]

I have the best of both worlds. Mazda B3000. Foreign Company uses Ford Parts and assembles in the US. V6 motor with 20+ if I am careful with the throttle.

[GearHead]

Yeah. Well. My 2004 Bug gets almost 50 MPG and you would never expect it to be full of guns. Pot or coke maybe, but not guns.

uuummm got me, I just don't were to start on what's wrong with that theory

[JasonFRC]

Yep, you can get 700hp from a 4banner. At 4 or 5 times the cost as a small block V8 and that will only go down the track 4 - 5 times before you need to rebuild. I can do the same thing with a Cavalier or Focus. But com-on, really, you would take a 700hp Talon over a 67 Stingray, 65 Goat, 68 Roadrunner, 67 GT Mustang? Really? (youth today :roll: )

Daily drivers, yep the crossbreeding has made the lines blurry, and each has their pros & cons. My point is to support the US Auto Industry. Hey, I'm opened minded.. Convince me to buy an import. (my wife did it. she bought a Kia)

Oh, one more thing, it was interesting that your example was a Talon. An American car company designed and built by a Japanese company.

I see where you're going with this. Apples and oranges. You're talking about two distinctly different types of cars. Are the classic cars you mentioned cooler? Well, maybe to some. Would my brother trade that Talon for a '67 Stingray? Well of course he would.

I think you need to give credit where credit is due. Today's youth didn't grow up with Roadrunners, Chevelles, and the like. You did. Why disrespect others for what they like? By the way, the only reason my brother's car gets taken apart is because he can't find drivetrain parts to support the engine. It's still a fairly new niche, and you can't just bolt a powerglide onto a transverse mounted engine with all wheel drive.

Cost isn't a compairison point either. My brother has less than 15k into his car. When's the last time you saw any of those vehicles you mentioned built, and fast (10 second timeslips) for less than 15k? I'd gather never. But! My brother's car is old, paint coming off, interior plastic disintegrating... So there you go. It's not much to look at, but it's fast as snot.

So what you ask? Exactly. So what. Fast is fast. A classic car is just that. Classic. They each have their own followings, and to argue better or worse is a waste of time. Did I mention my brother and I grew up around Corvettes and Ford Model A's? We know what beautiful classic cars are. Most "kids" do too.

Diamond Star Motors was a joint venture between Chrysler Corp, and Mitsubishi. The assembly plant was in Normal, Illinois. The Eclipse/Talon platform was designed specifically for the American market. Sometime in the late 90's Chrysler sold the plant back to Mitsubishi.

[JasonFRC]

You know what does drive me crazy?

Many of my Volvo customers are trading in their cars for Prius Hybrids. I must work in the most Liberal area of Denver.

You should see the sneers I get when they pull up in their new Hybrids and my F350 is outside.

When they hear it's a diesel they say "oh, well that's okay then!" [postal]

[2ndChildhood]

Way back in the 70's a co-worker gave us a ride in his bel-air.
He had some kind of built engine/race engine - I don't know what.

But when he punched it & went through the first three gears I was blown away!
Almost pinned me to the passenger seat.
That thing had more poop than most fast motorcycles of the day.

[GearHead]

Hey, I’m a equal opportunity hot rodder.. Wanna compare apples to apples. Fine, but my point is, and always will be DO NOT BUY FORGEIGN CARS.

Apples to apple, you pick the foreign car and I will pick an equal domestic counter. For example you say '06 Camry; I say the Pontiac G6. I'll take the G6 for comfort, cost, reliable and performance. That’s right, RELIABLE is in there. The Big Three have changed their focus to quality.

96’ 700hp Talon – I’ll take the ’96 700hp Camaro

[GearHead]

I'm gonna get killed for that last post...

[Asha'man]

Hey, I’m a equal opportunity hot rodder.. Wanna compare apples to apples. Fine, but my point is, and always will be DO NOT BUY FORGEIGN CARS.

Apples to apple, you pick the foreign car and I will pick an equal domestic counter. For example you say '06 Camry; I say the Pontiac G6. I'll take the G6 for comfort, cost, reliable and performance. That’s right, RELIABLE is in there. The Big Three have changed their focus to quality.

96’ 700hp Talon – I’ll take the ’96 700hp Camaro

Quality from the Big 3? [roll] Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of American cars, but they have a looooooong way to go to get to the level of the Japanese. The Germans aren't that great either. You couldn't get me into anything GM has made in the last 20 years short of a C6 Z06, and that's coming from a Fox Mustang guy.

My '86 Toyota 4Runner has 247K miles on it and the build quality is still better than most five-year-old domestic trucks. I used to be a lot tech at a dealership, so I drove a LOT of different vehicles, and for the most part the Jap cars were noticeably higher quality. I still hate Hondas, just as personal preference, but I think Toyota has just about the top-quality product on the market right now. If the Big 3 want to stay in business, they need to drop the UAW and bring up the quality BIG time.

Back on the topic of domestic muscle, here's my '86 Mustang SVO Comp Prep (option delete). One of 83 ever made.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2rhmce0.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/3yg8vb5.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/2s1npd1.jpg

Just a four cylinder. :mrgreen:

[HunterCO]

Considering I am a tech with 20 years experience and work on automobiles for a living you’re dead wrong about reliability. No American car can compare to how reliable Toyota and Honda is. Look in the consumer guide if you want more proof.

Lets see this week 90% of the cars I worked on were all American cars. The difference is simple my last truck a Chevy S10 had 177K on it when I traded it in. It was starting to smoke and the rod bearings were shot it sounded like a diesel when I would first start it until it got oil pressure. I now have a Toyota Tacoma that at 177K will just barley even be broke in and will probably go over 300K before it needs any major engine work.

You also don't seem to get it that your so called American cars are not made in the US. They are assembled here just like the foreign cars and half of US cars are not even US cars they are imports. Ford probes are made by Mazda, Mercury Villager is made 100% by Nissan it is a Nissan Qwest, All GEO's depending on model are either a Toyota or Isuzu, Chevy nova is a Toyota, Dodge Viper is a Mitsubishi GT3000 I could go on all day. The ones that are actual US cars don't even come close to the reliability of some of the imports mainly Toyota and Honda.

To each their own but I will take my Toyota over any US compact truck hands down. The only time I will ever by another US vehicle is if I want a full size truck.

[Marlin]

Maybe I won't mention the Recall notice I got on My truck, Less than a year after I got it. :roll:



Nothing big, just the tailgate seemed to fall off if You drove with it down.

[nooobie]

DROP THE UAW!!! Amen,brother. They're killing Detroit. $35 hour to tighten lug nuts. Good work if you can find it.

[GearHead]

OK, COHunter, I have a bit of respect for you since you actual own a repair shop but your logic is flawed. Let me prove it to you. Your first argument you state,

“Considering I am a tech with 20 years experience and work on automobiles for a living you’re dead wrong about reliability. No American car can compare to how reliable Toyota and Honda is.”
Then you state,
“Ford probes are made by Mazda, Mercury Villager is made 100% by Nissan it is a Nissan Quest, All GEO's depending on model are either a Toyota or Isuzu, Chevy nova is, blah, blah blah.”
Recap, American badge vehicles made by foreign companies are not as reliable as the same cars with a Toyota emblem. So, Toyota, in Fremont are making their badge cars reliable but GEOs made by Toyota are not. I think we have stumbled on a conspiracy!

Foreign companies are sabotaging American brand cars. Another reason to avoid imports.

[HunterCO]

Your catching on the only so called US cars that actually have any reliability are the ones we don't even make rather ironic is it not. They are not American cars they are imports with an American emblem that is one of my points. If you look at the consumer guide every single American car with a high rating is not really an American car it's an import in disguise.

True American cars are not reliable and need ten times more repairs than imports. Why do you think the American companies are selling more and more imports in disguise?

GM has already contracted out their Hybrid to Toyota. GM also has most of the power train components for every vehicle they actually make made in Mexico. So much for buying a Chevy and it's made in America.

All I am saying is that your delusional view that because you bought a US made car employed more people here vs. my Toyota is a fantasy. My Toyota employed just as many US workers as your Ford and it's ten times more reliable.

Like I said to each their own if you like US made cars nothing wrong with that. I am just stating from a professional view why I drive a Tacoma and not an S10 anymore.

If GM decides to contract out their compact trucks to Toyota then I will have to take back my statement of I will never by an American made car again. [wink]

[MPfiveengineer]

I have a Jeep that was probably made in Mexico and I do not think I will be buying another "American" car. I think it is funny that they best cars come from the two nations we beat and reindustrialized after WWII.

As for muscle I am not a fan of rice but I do have a love for kraut. :cool:
All that power does you little good if you can’t turn a corner while using it. For me a RUF Porsche is where it is at.


http://www.ruf-automobile.de/

[dorifto_poca]

http://porsche.carclub.ru/img/models/32.jpg

YES!!!! i'll take two!

[7idl]

daddy like :mrgreen:
http://www.hobbyshop.ch/images/FG/BMW%20M3%20GTR%20gross.jpg

[2ndChildhood]

Not a streetable car but damn! I just can't get these out of my head.
Way more than I could probably handle @ $80k.

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/side/side.jpg

[Asha'man]

I know a guy in the Springs who has an Atom on order right now.

[PsychoI3oy]

For those that haven't seen it, here's what Jeremy Clarkson thinks of the Atom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k20jZVM1HzU

[GearHead]

All I am saying is that your delusional view that because you bought a US made car employed more people here vs. my Toyota is a fantasy. My Toyota employed just as many US workers as your Ford and it's ten times more reliable. [wink]

Ok, can we agree that Imports employee as many US workers as domestic auto companies? (almost) If so, can we also agree that sales of imports benefit foreign companies? I don't think that we will agree on the reliable issue, yet.. :P

[Asha'man]

I don't think that we will agree on the reliable issue, yet.. :P

I didn't agree with my import-loving dad until I owned one.

[JasonFRC]

http://porsche.carclub.ru/img/models/32.jpg

YES!!!! i'll take two!

[theking]

mmm. Porsche.... pure sex.

[JasonFRC]

I was a huge import guy. I've owned: eight Volvos, an Eagle Talon, an Eclipse. Then I bought a Ford truck. That was good, so we bought a Lincoln SUV, then I bought a Corvette. I swore I would never own a domestic car or truck. Somewhere along the way I became a huge V-8 fan.

Our three domestic cars are the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned. I haven't had a big repair (other than maintainence) in over three years.

I still drive an older Volvo ('98) as my daily/beater. It has 208k and a few issues!

Our next vehicle will be German. The Wife's wanted a BMW 5 series for some time now.

[Marlin]

As long as We're dreaming, Let Me hop in the old time machine and get one of these fresh of the showroom floor.

http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/GM/70BuickGSX/



A friend of mine is in the Colorado GS club, I went to their show this past summer. One of the members had one of these, and it was appraised at $40,000.

[GearHead]

I was a huge import guy. I've owned: eight Volvos, an Eagle Talon, an Eclipse. Then I bought a Ford truck. That was good, so we bought a Lincoln SUV, then I bought a Corvette. I swore I would never own a domestic car or truck. Somewhere along the way I became a huge V-8 fan.

Our three domestic cars are the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned. I haven't had a big repair (other than maintainence) in over three years.

I still drive an older Volvo ('98) as my daily/beater. It has 208k and a few issues!

Our next vehicle will be German. The Wife's wanted a BMW 5 series for some time now.
A TRUE BELIEVER! Thanks for the comments, I needed a allied. My '02 F150 is still going strong w/80k and NO major work..(the sunroof motor fried) I expect 80K more before I upgrade to a new truck. The Big 3 have made huge changes to improve quality. But they started late.

[GearHead]

Oh, since were dreaming now.
Steve Saleen's S7
100% American Made
God's choice of cars, (don't believe me, Watch "Bruce O Mighty". God selects an American Muscle Car over an import!) :twisted:

http://home.comcast.net/~antpress/saleen-s7-01.jpg

[HunterCO]

I was a huge import guy. I've owned: eight Volvos, an Eagle Talon, an Eclipse. Then I bought a Ford truck. That was good, so we bought a Lincoln SUV, then I bought a Corvette. I swore I would never own a domestic car or truck. Somewhere along the way I became a huge V-8 fan.

Our three domestic cars are the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned. I haven't had a big repair (other than maintainence) in over three years.

I still drive an older Volvo ('98) as my daily/beater. It has 208k and a few issues!

Our next vehicle will be German. The Wife's wanted a BMW 5 series for some time now.

Get in a wreck in that Navigator and the frame is toast if anything other than a VW bug going 5mph hits it you will need a frame. I have done several already. No repairs in 3 years? Why don't you tell everyone how many miles are on these vehicles? [wink]

Before I forget be sure to list all the repairs so we can each judge for our selves what is major or not major. [wink]

Last but no least what vehicles did you own before your domestics?




A TRUE BELIEVER! Thanks for the comments, I needed a allied. My '02 F150 is still going strong w/80k and NO major work..(the sunroof motor fried) I expect 80K more before I upgrade to a new truck. The Big 3 have made huge changes to improve quality. But they started late.

I guess that is the difference you wish for 160K my Toyota will just be broke in. I will need to look for a new truck when it hits 300K. Your F150 is lucky if it makes it 15K on a set of brakes my Tacoma has 51K still factory brakes and last oil change they still had 40% left. I have never touched that truck other than fluid and filter changes.

My mothers Camry same thing over 100K and I have never had to put a wrench to it other than fluid and filter changes and brakes. Now my father, brother and sister christ one of them is in my shop every other day for something. Thank god at least my mother listened to me.

I guess we each have our own definition of reliability. [wink] :P

[Asha'man]

Oh, since were dreaming now.
Steve Saleen's S7
100% American Made
God's choice of cars, (don't believe me, Watch "Bruce O Mighty". God selects an American Muscle Car over an import!) :twisted:

http://home.comcast.net/~antpress/saleen-s7-01.jpg

My dream car. Check the latest version out, the S7 TT Competition. 1000hp.

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/odds_and_ends/2006/09/saleens7comp.jpg

Key here, though, is that this is a multi-hundred-thousand dollar handmade supercar. You cannot be serious if you're comparing build quality on this rolling wet dream to your average UAW-built Big 3 product.

[shrapmetal]

i have a 1961 VW Buggy and i'm willing to throw down at the track against a little american muscle. it's street legal. i'm not sure if this is still an "impot" or not to you guys as it was mostly made and or modded in the US.

http://www.ppvwc.net/coppermine/albums/datr06/normal_shrap1.jpg

http://www.ppvwc.net/coppermine/albums/datr06/normal_shrap2.jpg

http://www.ppvwc.net/coppermine/albums/datr06/normal_shrap3.jpg

http://www.ppvwc.net/coppermine/albums/datr05/normal_DATR05_034_%28Large%29.jpg

[Asha'man]

That is fuckin SWEET! What's it run?

[shrapmetal]

i have run 13.0 at 12psi on 91octane. this year i plan on slowly turning up the boost to about 18psi on 104octane and leaving the line at 5000rpm instead of 3000rpm.

i can't wait to see the numbers it can turn. i'm shooting for low 12s to high 11s. it gets a little squirly with the short wheel base so i'm takeing it real slow. a friend of mine put his VW in the wall at 110mph and im not looking to follow in his foot steps.

i also dynoed it at 152hp and 155lbs of tourque uncorrected. the numbers are not high compared to american standards but at 1450lbs wet i'll take it.

[Asha'man]

i have run 13.0 at 12psi on 91octane. this year i plan on slowly turning up the boost to about 18psi on 104octane and leaving the line at 5000rpm instead of 3000rpm.

i can't wait to see the numbers it can turn. i'm shooting for low 12s to high 11s. it gets a little squirly with the short wheel base so i'm takeing it real slow. a friend of mine put his VW in the wall at 110mph and im not looking to follow in his foot steps.

i also dynoed it at 152hp and 155lbs of tourque uncorrected. the numbers are not high compared to american standards but at 1450lbs wet i'll take it.

Very sweet. It's all about power to weight, and it appears that you've got that in spades.

[HunterCO]

i have run 13.0 at 12psi on 91octane. this year i plan on slowly turning up the boost to about 18psi on 104octane and leaving the line at 5000rpm instead of 3000rpm.

i can't wait to see the numbers it can turn. i'm shooting for low 12s to high 11s. it gets a little squirly with the short wheel base so i'm takeing it real slow. a friend of mine put his VW in the wall at 110mph and im not looking to follow in his foot steps.

i also dynoed it at 152hp and 155lbs of tourque uncorrected. the numbers are not high compared to american standards but at 1450lbs wet i'll take it.

Thats the problem with short wheel based cars they get really out of control at high speeds. I always gave Lee $hit at On Track for that death wish he races. He always makes it and it makes me laugh cause if anybody else on earth got in that car it would end up in the wall. :mrgreen:

[JasonFRC]

I was a huge import guy. I've owned: eight Volvos, an Eagle Talon, an Eclipse. Then I bought a Ford truck. That was good, so we bought a Lincoln SUV, then I bought a Corvette. I swore I would never own a domestic car or truck. Somewhere along the way I became a huge V-8 fan.

Our three domestic cars are the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned. I haven't had a big repair (other than maintainence) in over three years.

I still drive an older Volvo ('98) as my daily/beater. It has 208k and a few issues!

Our next vehicle will be German. The Wife's wanted a BMW 5 series for some time now.

Get in a wreck in that Navigator and the frame is toast if anything other than a VW bug going 5mph hits it you will need a frame. I have done several already. No repairs in 3 years? Why don't you tell everyone how many miles are on these vehicles? [wink]

Before I forget be sure to list all the repairs so we can each judge for our selves what is major or not major. [wink]

Last but no least what vehicles did you own before your domestics?




A TRUE BELIEVER! Thanks for the comments, I needed a allied. My '02 F150 is still going strong w/80k and NO major work..(the sunroof motor fried) I expect 80K more before I upgrade to a new truck. The Big 3 have made huge changes to improve quality. But they started late.

I guess that is the difference you wish for 160K my Toyota will just be broke in. I will need to look for a new truck when it hits 300K. Your F150 is lucky if it makes it 15K on a set of brakes my Tacoma has 51K still factory brakes and last oil change they still had 40% left. I have never touched that truck other than fluid and filter changes.

My mothers Camry same thing over 100K and I have never had to put a wrench to it other than fluid and filter changes and brakes. Now my father, brother and sister christ one of them is in my shop every other day for something. Thank god at least my mother listened to me.

I guess we each have our own definition of reliability. [wink] :P

Okay. Wrong on the collision thing. My Wife was rear ended last week by a Nissan mini-truck. (guy had no license, no insurance, no English! but that's another rant..) She estimated him to be going 30-35 mph. The hitch reciever took the brunt of the impact. It scratched the rear bumper cover. I put it on the lift, and there is NO damage to the frame or undercarrige. The Nissan was DOA. I feel comfortable my Wife and Twin 3 year old daughters are in one of the biggest heaviest things on the road.

The '99 F350 powerstroke has 78k miles. I replaced my first set of front brakes at 55k. ($160) Rear brakes at 70k. ($160) Tires replaced at 36k. I've replaced the heat control knob ($6). The column mounted shifter ($60) The glow plug relay twice ($12 ea from NAPA) And the driver outside mirror twice (my mistake!) Front and Rear shocks upgraded to Bilsteins at 80k ($240). That's it. Fluids flushed at 30k and at 60k. I have a cone filter that gets cleaned every couple of oil changes.

The '99 Navigator has 89k miles. It had front brakes at 65k (when we bought it, $170) and rear brakes ($160) at 88k. I flushed fluids and replaced all filters at 65k when we bought it. It's about time again. No other repairs. Actually it needs a new set of 20" tires, that I'm not looking forward to replacing. The odometer flickers off once in a while, but I'm not worried about it.

The '99 Corvette has 41k miles. Fluids flushed, filters changed at 32k when we bought it. Tires at 36k, no other repairs needed thus far.

Imports I drove: mostly Volvo, as I own a Volvo shop, and they seem to just appear out of the blue. I have also owned a Civic, a Porsche 914, a '71 Baja Bug, a '92 Eclipse and a '93 Eagle Talon.

I stopped driving the "Import" performance cars, as I got tired of every kid stopping at a light next to me revving his car and trying to race. I still get that in the 'Vette every now and then...

Every car has its faults. I've been pretty lucky with the vehicles I own now. That being said, my friend's '01 F350 has been nothing but trouble. Replaced transmission, injectors, auto locking hubs...

My family has owned three Toyotas. My Mom's '94 Landcruiser was thought to be bulletproof for the last eight years, until it developed a bad misfire we attributed to a bad valve. It has 140k miles. My younger brother's '71 Landcruiser is a great truck, and has no issues other than a bit of smoke on startup. My Dad's old '87 4Runner was great, albeit very slow (4cyl, 22re) and never gave any problems until one of the timing chain guides broke and the chain rubbed through the front case, mixing coolant and oil. (120k miles).

You forgot to mention how difficult some Toyotas are to work on. Ever change a fuel filter in an early pickup? How about a early '90's Corolla with the fuel filter mounted low and next to the firewall? Just about impossible.

Some cars just last longer than others. To make speculations how long a car will last is just silly. Everyone takes care of their cars differently.

Some people will destroy a car no matter how well it's built. I have an uncle like that, he can go through a new Ford F series in about three years on his ranch. We call him acid-man!

[JasonFRC]

i have run 13.0 at 12psi on 91octane. this year i plan on slowly turning up the boost to about 18psi on 104octane and leaving the line at 5000rpm instead of 3000rpm.

i can't wait to see the numbers it can turn. i'm shooting for low 12s to high 11s. it gets a little squirly with the short wheel base so i'm takeing it real slow. a friend of mine put his VW in the wall at 110mph and im not looking to follow in his foot steps.

i also dynoed it at 152hp and 155lbs of tourque uncorrected. the numbers are not high compared to american standards but at 1450lbs wet i'll take it.

Very sweet. It's all about power to weight, and it appears that you've got that in spades.

No doubt! That's hawt! [headbang] Your '61 reminds me of a sand rail I got a ride in on the sand in Utah. It wasn't even turbocharged, but I thought I was going to crap my pants it was so scary fast!

Nice work on the '61, it's really clean.

[HunterCO]

Okay. Wrong on the collision thing. My Wife was rear ended last week by a Nissan mini-truck. (guy had no license, no insurance, no English! but that's another rant..) She estimated him to be going 30-35 mph. The hitch reciever took the brunt of the impact. It scratched the rear bumper cover. I put it on the lift, and there is NO damage to the frame or undercarrige. The Nissan was DOA. I feel comfortable my Wife and Twin 3 year old daughters are in one of the biggest heaviest things on the road.

It must be a figment of me and every other tech and shop owners imagination. I have only done four of them so far none of them were in bad wrecks. I will give you a hint you can't tell by looking at it. I am not a big guy and I can carry a navigator frame by myself. They are about as rugged as a pop can.



The '99 F350 powerstroke has 78k miles. I replaced my first set of front brakes at 55k. ($160) Rear brakes at 70k. ($160) Tires replaced at 36k. I've replaced the heat control knob ($6). The column mounted shifter ($60) The glow plug relay twice ($12 ea from NAPA) And the driver outside mirror twice (my mistake!) Front and Rear shocks upgraded to Bilsteins at 80k ($240). That's it. Fluids flushed at 30k and at 60k. I have a cone filter that gets cleaned every couple of oil changes.

I said F150 when refering to the brakes. The pads on a F150 are much smaller than the pads on my little Tacoma. They don't last long even if I put ceramics on them.



The '99 Navigator has 89k miles. It had front brakes at 65k (when we bought it, $170) and rear brakes ($160) at 88k. I flushed fluids and replaced all filters at 65k when we bought it. It's about time again. No other repairs. Actually it needs a new set of 20" tires, that I'm not looking forward to replacing. The odometer flickers off once in a while, but I'm not worried about it.

The '99 Corvette has 41k miles. Fluids flushed, filters changed at 32k when we bought it. Tires at 36k, no other repairs needed thus far.

Imports I drove: mostly Volvo, as I own a Volvo shop, and they seem to just appear out of the blue. I have also owned a Civic, a Porsche 914, a '71 Baja Bug, a '92 Eclipse and a '93 Eagle Talon.

I stopped driving the "Import" performance cars, as I got tired of every kid stopping at a light next to me revving his car and trying to race. I still get that in the 'Vette every now and then...

Every car has its faults. I've been pretty lucky with the vehicles I own now. That being said, my friend's '01 F350 has been nothing but trouble. Replaced transmission, injectors, auto locking hubs...

My family has owned three Toyotas. My Mom's '94 Landcruiser was thought to be bulletproof for the last eight years, until it developed a bad misfire we attributed to a bad valve. It has 140k miles. My younger brother's '71 Landcruiser is a great truck, and has no issues other than a bit of smoke on startup. My Dad's old '87 4Runner was great, albeit very slow (4cyl, 22re) and never gave any problems until one of the timing chain guides broke and the chain rubbed through the front case, mixing coolant and oil. (120k miles).

You forgot to mention how difficult some Toyotas are to work on. Ever change a fuel filter in an early pickup? How about a early '90's Corolla with the fuel filter mounted low and next to the firewall? Just about impossible.

I have changed many of them over the last 20 years and I do not find it difficult. Some cars it's easier than others but not a big deal to me. I don't work on just one car as you do I work on them all. The only thing I don't work on at my shop is most of the euro cars like BMW, Mercedes, Porche, Jaguar ect.




Some cars just last longer than others. To make speculations how long a car will last is just silly. Everyone takes care of their cars differently.

It's not speculation it's a fact I seen with my own eyes being a tech for the last 20 years. Yes there can and will be lemons with any car I am talking about the majority of them. There is a reason Toyota and Honda are and have been the two top rated cars for needing the least amount of repairs. They have been the top two for over ten years.



Some people will destroy a car no matter how well it's built. I have an uncle like that, he can go through a new Ford F series in about three years on his ranch. We call him acid-man!

I deffinately can't argue with that some people just destroy cars no matter what it is.

[GearHead]

Jason, thanks again for the support..
Hunter, damn... you can debate. should have be a politician..
Oh, just for the record, I'll upgrade my F150 at 150k - 160k cause I want to, not cause I have to.

[JasonFRC]

It must be a figment of me and every other tech and shop owners imagination. I have only done four of them so far none of them were in bad wrecks. I will give you a hint you can't tell by looking at it. I am not a big guy and I can carry a navigator frame by myself. They are about as rugged as a pop can.


I said F150 when refering to the brakes. The pads on a F150 are much smaller than the pads on my little Tacoma. They don't last long even if I put ceramics on them.


I have changed many of them over the last 20 years and I do not find it difficult. Some cars it's easier than others but not a big deal to me. I don't work on just one car as you do I work on them all. The only thing I don't work on at my shop is most of the euro cars like BMW, Mercedes, Porche, Jaguar ect.


It's not speculation it's a fact I seen with my own eyes being a tech for the last 20 years. Yes there can and will be lemons with any car I am talking about the majority of them. There is a reason Toyota and Honda are and have been the two top rated cars for needing the least amount of repairs. They have been the top two for over ten years.


I deffinately can't argue with that some people just destroy cars no matter what it is.

A Navigator frame seems just as rugged as a F-series frame, as that's what it's built on, no? Why would you replace an entire frame (if that's what you're talking about), isn't that about the point a vehicle is totaled? I've replaced plenty of suspension sub-frames over the years, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. Can it not be straightened on a frame machine?

Toyota and Honda have been at the top of the heap (no pun intended) for many many years. I won't deny that, nor did I ever dispute it. In fact I reccomend Toyota and Honda cars on a daily basis. Yes, I do work on many other vehicles, but specializing in one or two makes allows us to be very selective, so we don't have to work on old junk cars. I also do a bunch of high-performance stuff as well. Oh yeah, the other make we specialize in is Honda. We're probably 80% Volvo, but we do a lot of Hondas too.


So you like your Toyota. That's fine. I'm sure you think it's a great truck. Your input will not change my opinion, as I'm sure mine won't change yours. But here goes anyway. I find them unrefined, underpowered, too little towing capacity, and too small. The Tundra (I work on four or five of these by the way) are better, but I'd still buy an F series. But that's my opinion, and it only matters to me. My F350 hauls a 32 ft. Toy Hauler up Vail pass at 65 mph. Try that in a smaller truck.

You seem to have a deep-rooted distain for domestic vehicles. That's fine. My whole point in this debate was the fact that indeed there are some folks out there who like their domestics, and have had really good luck with them. I'm not trying to start trouble here, but I was asked my opinion and I seem to be talked down to here, even though you know nothing about me.

We can agree to disagree. [wink]

No hard feelings, eh?

[Atrain]

Variety is the spice of life.

Fun car (under slow construction) - '70 Camaro (because it was my first car), so far...500+hp 383ci, NOS Cheater, ZF-6 Speed (the good German made one), 90 Vette IRS (Dana 44), 4:10 gears, glass front end, Wilwood brakes, Hochkis springs, 1 7/8" sway bar, cage, Nascar slicks. For my adrenaline fix.

Wheelin' car - '01 Jeep Cherokee 4.0, 6" Full-Traction long arm lift kit, 33" Baja Claws, locker, crappy unibody, confusing blend of metric and american hardware. Light, goes anywhere, fits the fam for off road adventures. Just blew a head gasket BTW [dead] .

Family car - Toyota Sienna AWD. My sure-footed, reliable, fat girl. Awesome in the snow and like a C-130 when you pull out the middle seats. Fits the fam and visitors and luggage and has like 20 cup holders. Love the automatic door too when I have a kid in one hand and a bag of WalMart's finest ammo in the other.

Commuter - Honda Civic, just change the oil/filter and enjoy the 38mpg. No better commuter IMO.

[HunterCO]

A Navigator frame seems just as rugged as a F-series frame, as that's what it's built on, no? Why would you replace an entire frame (if that's what you're talking about), isn't that about the point a vehicle is totaled? I've replaced plenty of suspension sub-frames over the years, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. Can it not be straightened on a frame machine?

No it can not be straightened or I should say it should not be. It is a hydroformed frame and I am not going to even try to begin and explain it I don't feel like typing that much. Ford will even tell you that it needs to be replaced. Understand that GM, Toyota, Chrysler and many others also use hydroform frames but they don't have the problems of the navigator. For 2007 Ford re-designed the navigator frame they claim it is for other reasons but me as well as the rest of the shops who have replaced frame after frame know the real reason. [wink]



Toyota and Honda have been at the top of the heap (no pun intended) for many many years. I won't deny that, nor did I ever dispute it. In fact I reccomend Toyota and Honda cars on a daily basis. Yes, I do work on many other vehicles, but specializing in one or two makes allows us to be very selective, so we don't have to work on old junk cars. I also do a bunch of high-performance stuff as well. Oh yeah, the other make we specialize in is Honda. We're probably 80% Volvo, but we do a lot of Hondas too.


So you like your Toyota. That's fine. I'm sure you think it's a great truck. Your input will not change my opinion, as I'm sure mine won't change yours. But here goes anyway. I find them unrefined, underpowered, too little towing capacity, and too small. The Tundra (I work on four or five of these by the way) are better, but I'd still buy an F series. But that's my opinion, and it only matters to me. My F350 hauls a 32 ft. Toy Hauler up Vail pass at 65 mph. Try that in a smaller truck.

Hence why I said the only American vehicle I would own would be a full size truck. If you need something to pull a 32 ft. trailer you have no choice. America has the market cornered as far as full size trucks that can pull a house.




You seem to have a deep-rooted distain for domestic vehicles. That's fine. My whole point in this debate was the fact that indeed there are some folks out there who like their domestics, and have had really good luck with them. I'm not trying to start trouble here, but I was asked my opinion and I seem to be talked down to here, even though you know nothing about me.


Wrong as I said in my earlier posts to each their own I have no problem with anybody owning anything they want. I just was dispelling two myths #1 American cars are American made is a fallacy. #2 American cars are just as dependable as foreign cars another fallacy. This entire thread came to be because MrWill is looking for a car to drive the hell out of for work. Out of the choices he gave me and several others said get the Subaru. (This was in another thread)

I have a Harley it would be like me saying that my Harley was more dependable and had more power than a rice bike. That would be a complete lie although I would never in a million years take a rice bike over my Harley. It vibrates leaks oil no matter how damn hard I try to stop it. Because of the vibration parts tend to fall off going down the road sometimes LMAO [abused] . It is my choice and I will never park my A$$ on any bike ever again that is not a Harley. The point I am making is I will also not try to BS people and say it is more dependable or has more power than a rice bike.




We can agree to disagree. [wink]

No hard feelings, eh?

This is the internet and no there is no hard feelings I am sure we will meet at some point and shoot together. So get your A$$ to a shoot already. Unless you already have and I just didn't know it... [blackeye] [wink]

[JasonFRC]

I didn't realize the Nav. frame was Hydroformed, I've read about the process, (I own a 'Vette with a hydroformed frame.) You are correct sir, I believe they cannont be straightened in a conventional manner.

Learn something new every day.

Funny you mentioned the Harley thing. I spent my childhood on the back of my Dad's '80 Lowrider (AMF junk!) and I swear that thing just dropped parts idling in the driveway!

Nope, I've never met you, but I'd like to. We seem to have more in common than we realize.

[beer]

I do indeed need to make an effort to get out to a shoot. I have a new (to me) M1 Garand I'm dying to get some trigger time on. I shoot once a month for a Service Rifle match at the Golden Gun Club, and we're trying to sell our house now, so time's a bit precious. I will make a concerted effort for the next one.

Hey Gearhead, sorry for blatantly hijacking your thread about your new avatar.

I do like it. :mrgreen:

[GearHead]

I don't think I even talked about the avatar. That was just a side note.. I started this to flame imports.

[JasonFRC]

Troublemaker.

[poke]

:mrgreen: