View Full Version : Person very familiar with NFA items
I have some questions can you please send me a PM. I am only looking for people with a wealth a knowledge. No googlers unless you are 100% sure
Thanks
Landon
Screw it here's the deal, I'm a youngin compared to some of you! I always his it so people would not disregard what issue :). I'm 20 and will turn 21 in a few months. I want to get something sentimental to me and something I would not go out and get spur of the moment if that makes sense. So my question is... If I were to SBR a rifle like one of those m92s could I find one at a local store have them hold it.. Full out the proper paperwork with the ATF send it in. then by the time I get it I will have already been 21. So I could go get my gun and parts to do the project.
Does that make sense???
Circuits
08-22-2012, 11:49
You only need to be 18 to build on a Form 1. However, you will not be able to purchase the M92 from a dealer until you are already 21.
If you're willing to mark a new serial number (in addition to what's on there), there's no reason you couldn't submit a Form 1 right now, then go buy the M92 when you're 21, and mark down your own "maker" info along with the new serial number you wish to assign to it.
Or find someone to sell you an M92 in a private, FTF sale.
Or, if you can get the store to hold it for you, sure, you could submit a Form 1 for the serial number the store's holding for you.
So I could do it just have to have the shop hold the gun since its a pistol? Now could I find one private party and do it sooner.
So I could get a nfa item now?
I guess you edited you're first post
Oh my gosh I was unaware of this.
Do you have to be a certain age to buy suppressors from dealers?
You could always ask the ATF directly. I've never tried that, and won't be able to either (already old enough)
On the Form 4, Question 13(d) is "Are you under 21 years of age?". Which you will have to answer "yes".
You then have to certify the information is true and accurate when signing.
If it is a pistol, you will convert to a SBR, then you would need a F1, which you can do at 18. Of course you can't receive the pistol until 21. You will need to find a shop that is willing to do that. I'd check the ones that deal in NFA items directly, they are used to holding on to things until the stamps get approved.
But I could try and find one private party then do the form one
Great-Kazoo
08-22-2012, 12:03
By the time you turn 21 the paperwork will still be in the process mode.
Here's the atf contact info
Get who you talked with this way if there is a problem down the road you already have verbal documentation (so to speak) with ATf contact info.
Name
date
Time
They have a fairly decent turn around response time.
If you have any questions relating to NFA, please contact the ATF National Firearms Act Branch.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA
Voice (304) 616-4500
Fax (304) 616-4501
Wonder how Douglas County sheriff is on NFA stuff.
I'm only in pueblo till next may then moving back to highlands ranch where my parents are
spqrzilla
08-22-2012, 12:16
Douglas County sheriff won't sign NFA to my recollection.
Wonder how Douglas County sheriff is on NFA stuff.
I'm only in pueblo till next may then moving back to highlands ranch where my parents are
Weaver will not sign off on any NFA paperwork. Make a trust (or corp) and be happy.
Thats what I thought dang
islandermyk
08-22-2012, 12:51
Thats what I thought dang
getting an NFA item sign off by your county sheriff... It's not the only option you have...
Try doing one of these... [Beer]
Weaver will not sign off on any NFA paperwork. Make a trust (or corp) and be happy.
Yeah I have looked into it just pricy
Circuits
08-22-2012, 14:35
Of course you can't receive the pistol until 21.
18 from a non-FFL. The federal law is not an age prohibition on handgun ownership, just an age restriction on an FFL transaction.
Yes. I'm aware. I should have been more specific in that post.
Great-Kazoo
08-22-2012, 15:06
Wonder how Douglas County sheriff is on NFA stuff.
I'm only in pueblo till next may then moving back to highlands ranch where my parents are
You can apply with current address. Upon moving and settled in then submit a change of address. This may be the best way, since money looks like it's an issue.
I got the money just need to justify spending it
If you're willing to mark a new serial number (in addition to what's on there)...
2 things, first to correct the above statement: You don't engrave a new serial number, you have to engrave the full name and location [on the receiver] of the entity making the SBR. No abbreviations allowed except those recognized by the post office (https://www.usps.com/send/official-abbreviations.htm). This can become a problem depending on how long your name is and where you live:
Millhouse Farnsworth III
Shamballah-Ashrama, CO
For example. This is why trusts with short names are good (though it doesn't help with where you live):
MF TRUST
CO SPRINGS, CO
or
CO SPGS, CO
Note the use of post-office recognized abbreviations. They're the only abbreviations allowed by the ATF. Many people get away with "COLO SPGS" for example, but they're just lucky.
Now for a suggestion. If you're going to make an SBR, especially for your first one, consider a platform that's flexible -- one that you can change calibers, etc. on. Of course, the AR15 is one obvious platform, but another is a Thompson Center G2 Contender (http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2Contender.php) or Encore (http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encore.php) (Or the older, plain Contender) rifles. One huge advantage of the Contender/Encore platform is that if you decide to spend money on a silencer in the future, they're stupid quiet because there's no action cycling. Plus in the rifle configuration, you can buy one at your age.
There, my free advice! :)
O2
Circuits
08-23-2012, 11:01
2 things, first to correct the above statement: You don't engrave a new serial number
You missed my point, which was describing a situation where he could submit a Form 1 now, without buying a potential host firearm first.
In the situation I described, he would have to submit a Form 1 with a serial number on it, and the chances he just happened to guess correctly what the original mfg serial number would eventually turn out to be are about zero.
Therefore, in the case of submitting a Form 1 before purchasing or knowing the serial number of the eventual donor firearm, he'd have to engrave the Form 1 serial number on the firearm when he got it.
RANGERRON72
08-26-2012, 17:34
He gives you a letter saying how to form an LLC or trust to avoid the need for a CLEO signoff.
Pro second amendment guy, just seems to be avoiding an "unfunded mandate" I think.
If I were to sbr an AR could I use my Lower now. Fill out a form 1.then buy an sbr upper out do you some how fill out the paper work for the upper
If I were to sbr an AR could I use my Lower now. Fill out a form 1.then buy an sbr upper out do you some how fill out the paper work for the upper
No, you would be creating and registering the lower as an SBR lower. It can be any rifle/pistol lower you currently have or a new rifle one (since you cannot legally purchase a new pistol lower from a dealer). The upper is just an accessory. You can purchase a short upper at any time (after 18) however you cannot mount it to the lower until the Form 1 is approved and the lower engraved with the required info. You can have several short uppers of various lengths that you can temporarily interchange on the registered SBR lower provided it does not make the OAL less than the registered length on the Form 1. For example, if you have an SBR registered with a 7" bbl on the Form 1, then you can have 7", 10", 12", and 14.5" short uppers (or longer if you wish) to mount on that single lower provided that you notify NFA Branch in writing of you make a permanent change (longer) to the OAL. Simple process.
You can have several short uppers of various lengths that you can temporarily interchange on the registered SBR lower provided it does not make the OAL less than the registered length on the Form 1.
No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.
Here's the typical process for SBRing an AR15 lower. We'll start with step 0:
0: Make sure you have "long" uppers for each and every "normal" lower you own. The "normal" lower you're going to SBR will be a "normal" lower until you get the Form 1 back from the ATF. For example. Lets say I own 3 ARs and I'm going to make one an SBR. I should possess 3 or more "long" uppers before I get a "short" upper (and you don't mount the short upper until you get your form 1 back). Basically you want to possess the parts such that you can put everything together in legal configurations. If you have 3 normal lowers, 2 long uppers and 1 short upper, you can't assemble everything in a legal configuration, and you can get nabbed for "constructive intent" -- that's not exactly the right term, but I forget what the correct legal term is at the moment. Just always make sure that the number of long uppers in your possession is greater than or equal to the number of normal lowers in your possession. Last example, if you have 2 normal lowers, 2 long uppers, 1 SBR and 453 short uppers you're fine, because you have enough long uppers that can be legally assembled with the normal lowers.
1: Make sure the lower is something that you want to make into an SBR. Don't just SBR a brand-new stripped receiver in case there's some defect (screwed up holes, etc.). Assemble it, make sure it runs and you're happy with it.
2: Engrave it. This way if the engraver screws up, you don't have a crappy looking re-do on your SBR.
3: Get your SBR upper (see step 0).
4: Determine barrel length. I always like to measure. Put a bolt in the upper, drop a dowel down the bore and measure it to the muzzle.
5: Determine overall length. Here you have an issue -- you can't assemble it to determine the overall length, but you can measure the lower from the the buttstock (extended) to the hinge pin, and the upper from the hinge pin hole to the muzzle and do some addition.
6: Fill out the form 1, cough up $200 and wait for six months.
O2
HoneyBadger
08-30-2012, 08:32
O2HeN2, That was extremely helpful. Thanks! [Beer]
No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.
Incorrect. You cannot go shorter than what you have listed on the Form 1. ou would have to request permission to modify the original Form 1. You can always go longer, but not shorter. And an SBR lower created on a Form 1 can be made back into a "regular" lower (non NFA) again if you so wished.
And a correction to my earlier post:
You cannot purchase the short upper(s) until a Form 1 has been sent in and the firearm registered. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#part-possession
Circuits
08-30-2012, 09:52
Incorrect. You cannot go shorter than what you have listed on the Form 1. You can always go longer, but not shorter.
Incorrect. You can go shorter if you want. The value listed on the Form 1 is how you intend to build it, initially - but if you later change it, you can go shorter or longer, change calibers but leave the length the same, etc. SBR is SBR.
Incorrect. You can go shorter if you want. The value listed on the Form 1 is how you intend to build it, initially - but if you later change it, you can go shorter or longer, change calibers but leave the length the same, etc. SBR is SBR.
I was told otherwise by Earnest @ NFA. I will call to confirm.
I was told otherwise by Earnest @ NFA. I will call to confirm.
If you call, ask for a pointer to a document, memo or ruling that specifies that restriction. I have found that just because an ATF agent says so doesn't mean it's so.
If it isn't written down and available to the public, the restriction doesn't exist.
Example: My engraver here in the springs (T&T (http://www.ttengraving.com/)) has had ATF agents standing with him while re-engraving recovered firearms with "COLO SPGS" despite the ATF documents clearly saying "postal abbreviations only" of which "COLO" is not.
O2
If you call, ask for a pointer to a document, memo or ruling that specifies that restriction. I have found that just because an ATF agent says so doesn't mean it's so.
If it isn't written down and available to the public, the restriction doesn't exist.
Example: My engraver here in the springs (T&T (http://www.ttengraving.com/)) has had ATF agents standing with him while re-engraving recovered firearms with "COLO SPGS" despite the ATF documents clearly saying "postal abbreviations only" of which "COLO" is not.
O2
ATF agents don't know enough about NFA. That is why I call NFA branch directly.
You cannot purchase the short upper(s) until a Form 1 has been sent in and the firearm registered. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#part-possession
Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.
In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just possessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally possess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.
So using the Contender as an example, you can possess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!
What the court case (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html) pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.
And lastly of course, if you can't possess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?
O2
ATF agents don't know enough about NFA. That is why I call NFA branch directly.
Now this I agree with!
O2
No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.
Here's the typical process for SBRing an AR15 lower. We'll start with step 0:
0: Make sure you have "long" uppers for each and every "normal" lower you own. The "normal" lower you're going to SBR will be a "normal" lower until you get the Form 1 back from the ATF. For example. Lets say I own 3 ARs and I'm going to make one an SBR. I should possess 3 or more "long" uppers before I get a "short" upper (and you don't mount the short upper until you get your form 1 back). Basically you want to possess the parts such that you can put everything together in legal configurations. If you have 3 normal lowers, 2 long uppers and 1 short upper, you can't assemble everything in a legal configuration, and you can get nabbed for "constructive intent" -- that's not exactly the right term, but I forget what the correct legal term is at the moment. Just always make sure that the number of long uppers in your possession is greater than or equal to the number of normal lowers in your possession. Last example, if you have 2 normal lowers, 2 long uppers, 1 SBR and 453 short uppers you're fine, because you have enough long uppers that can be legally assembled with the normal lowers.
No. You can have as many lowers as you want and no not need to have a "long" upper for each one.
1: Make sure the lower is something that you want to make into an SBR. Don't just SBR a brand-new stripped receiver in case there's some defect (screwed up holes, etc.). Assemble it, make sure it runs and you're happy with it.
2: Engrave it. This way if the engraver screws up, you don't have a crappy looking re-do on your SBR.
You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.
3: Get your SBR upper (see step 0).
4: Determine barrel length. I always like to measure. Put a bolt in the upper, drop a dowel down the bore and measure it to the muzzle.
5: Determine overall length. Here you have an issue -- you can't assemble it to determine the overall length, but you can measure the lower from the the buttstock (extended) to the hinge pin, and the upper from the hinge pin hole to the muzzle and do some addition.
6: Fill out the form 1, cough up $200 and wait for six months.
Do this BEFORE purchasing the short upper unless you have a pistol lower in posession, per NFA guidelines mentioned in link (earlier post).
O2
Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.
"A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms. A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf) (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm."
Untill a ruling and publication are released, the previous rulings are in effect.
In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just posessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally posess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.
So using the Contender as an example, you can posess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!
What the court case (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html) pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.
And lastly of course, if you can't posess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?
OAL of a 14.5" - the difference in barrel lengths....(+/- any variances made to the stock as well)
Buttstock Closed - 29.75 inches
Buttstock Open - 33.00 inches
(from FM 3.22-9)
O2
You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.
My gawd man, just where are you getting your information? You can engrave ANYTHING on your lower -- zombies, cute sayings, anything, it's just decoration. Your name/trust/corporation, city and state is just that - decoration until you use it to make (note "make" not "manufacture" - important distinction - and another mistake on your part) it into an SBR and enter the "Additional description" in line 4h on the form 1. Note it's not a serial number -- it's an "additional description". What you're stating IS true if you manufacture a firearm -- which you aren't doing.
O2
My gawd man, just where are you getting your information?
From NFA
You can engrave ANYTHING on your lower -- zombies, cute sayings, anything, it's just decoration. Your name/trust/corporation, city and state is just that - decoration until you use it to make (note "make" not "manufacture" another mistake on your part) it into an SBR and enter the "Additional description" in line 4h on the form 1.
From Form 1, page 3 (you have to read the WHOLE thing)
i. Make. The term "make", and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.
O2
Just spoke with NFA.
Per Sheri (did not get last name):
-Any permanent change in SBR length (longer or shorter) then you must notify NFA in writing and wait for approval (approx 30 days).
-Temporary changes: did not know
Per Janice Fields:
-for temp change: no need to notify NFA for any temp change in barrel length, either shorter or longer.
I had old info before on the longer to shorter berrels, my fault. Now, there is current info right from NFA.
Circuits
08-30-2012, 13:05
You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.
Also no, I'm afraid. Most people re-use the existing serial when converting from a Title 1 to a Title 2 firearm, anyway, so it'll usually already be on there.
You can engrave any damn thing you want on your firearm - as mentioned above. Ponies, skulls, bible verses, your underwear tag information, scrolls and wreaths or even random numbers. Only thing you cannot do is obscure or remove the required original manufacturer's markings which are already present.
If you choose to engrave all of your "manufacturer's" information before the application is approved all you do is risk having to go make a correction if they made you change your trust name or city/state abbreviation verbage or something to that effect.
The law does require that you get that engraving done before you go attaching the short barrel to that lower, in the situation presented by the original poster in this thread, but it does not require you to wait until the application has been approved before you do the engraving.
Also no, I'm afraid. Most people re-use the existing serial when converting from a Title 1 to a Title 2 firearm, anyway, so it'll usually already be on there.
You can engrave any damn thing you want on your firearm - as mentioned above. Ponies, skulls, bible verses, your underwear tag information, scrolls and wreaths or even random numbers. Only thing you cannot do is obscure or remove the required original manufacturer's markings which are already present.
If you choose to engrave all of your "manufacturer's" information before the application is approved all you do is risk having to go make a correction if they made you change your trust name or city/state abbreviation verbage or something to that effect.
The law does require that you get that engraving done before you go attaching the short barrel to that lower, in the situation presented by the original poster in this thread, but it does not require you to wait until the application has been approved before you do the engraving.
Ahem...you are incorrect, I'm afraid.
Just spoke with Ken Mason @ NFA.
-DO NOT engrave your name/trust/corp and city until AFTER receiving your approved Form 1 and tax stamp and berore you assemble the firearm.
You can engrave you lower with unicorns and Miley Cyrus lyrics all you want but leave off the new mfg info until AFTER you're approved and BEFORE you put the rifle together. Again, straight from the examiners at NFA.
Any others???
Circuits
08-30-2012, 14:22
Ahem...you are incorrect, I'm afraid.
Just spoke with Ken Mason @ NFA.
-DO NOT engrave your name/trust/corp and city until AFTER receiving your approved Form 1 and tax stamp and berore you assemble the firearm.
You can engrave you lower with unicorns and Miley Cyrus lyrics all you want but leave off the new mfg info until AFTER you're approved and BEFORE you put the rifle together. Again, straight from the examiners at NFA.
Any others???
Yeah. I'm gonna go engrave my new lower right now. What's Ken Mason gonna do about it? How's he gonna know when I engraved it? Riddle me that, sir.
I'm sure that NFA branch "advises" you not to engrave it until after you get your Form 1 back - but there's no law requiring it, and nothing they can or would do about it if you engrave it earlier.
Yeah. I'm gonna go engrave my new lower right now. What's Ken Mason gonna do about it? How's he gonna know when I engraved it? Riddle me that, sir.
I'm sure that NFA branch "advises" you not to engrave it until after you get your Form 1 back - but there's no law requiring it, and nothing they can or would do about it if you engrave it earlier.
Way to set an example there Mr. FFL/SOT 07/02 NRA know it all Industry Partner guy, especially on an open forum. I'll be sure to recommend everyone to your shop. Perhaps just your mere presence will enlighten them as they walk through the door and they will know the sercets to FFLness. Rock on with your bad self....
OP: call the NFA branch with you questions (after reading the NFA handbook thoroughly). It's not difficult.
Circuits
08-30-2012, 20:52
Way to set an example there Mr. FFL/SOT 07/02 NRA know it all Industry Partner guy, especially on an open forum. I'll be sure to recommend everyone to your shop. Perhaps just your mere presence will enlighten them as they walk through the door and they will know the sercets to FFLness. Rock on with your bad self....
OP: call the NFA branch with you questions (after reading the NFA handbook thoroughly). It's not difficult.
Set an example of what, MR. coloccw spreader of well-meaning misinformation?
I agree you should wait until after you get your F1 back to engrave your lower. That's good and reasonable advice, but that doesn't make getting the F1 back a legal requirement, nor does it make it wrong, or bad, or somehow un-American or rude or reckless to engrave it before you get your F1 back. Or hell, before you even fill out an F1 and send one in.
Use your head.
Set an example of what, MR. coloccw spreader of well-meaning misinformation?
I agree you should wait until after you get your F1 back to engrave your lower. That's good and reasonable advice, but that doesn't make getting the F1 back a legal requirement, nor does it make it wrong, or bad, or somehow un-American or rude or reckless to engrave it before you get your F1 back. Or hell, before you even fill out an F1 and send one in.
Use your head.
Yeah....disagree with the guy at NFA who is 1) a federal agent and 2) does this every day for a living....GREAT advise! I'm suprised you even got an FFL with your "I'll do what I want" attitude. You do know that BATFE reads this forum, right? I suggest when giving advise that may or may not get someone else in legal trouble, that you stick to what you can confirm and leave the things you think you know to campfires and beer stories. If unsure which is which, pick up the phone and call them yourself. Hell, I had to do that regarding barrel length. It took 5 minutes to confirm that I had old info and get it straight. I would think that a businessman, let alone a FFL/SOT holder, would understand this simple principle.
On a side note: Your not the guy from American Guns, are you? You have the same BS know it all attitude as him.....
Great-Kazoo
08-30-2012, 22:34
Yeah....disagree with the guy at NFA who is 1) a federal agent and 2) does this every day for a living....GREAT advise! I'm suprised you even got an FFL with your "I'll do what I want" attitude. You do know that BATFE reads this forum, right? I suggest when giving advise that may or may not get someone else in legal trouble, that you stick to what you can confirm and leave the things you think you know to campfires and beer stories. If unsure which is which, pick up the phone and call them yourself. Hell, I had to do that regarding barrel length. It took 5 minutes to confirm that I had old info and get it straight. I would think that a businessman, let alone a FFL/SOT holder, would understand this simple principle.
On a side note: Your not the guy from American Guns, are you? You have the same BS know it all attitude as him.....
What he is saying isn't illegal to do. UNTIL you put the shorter than 16" bbl'd upper on the lower you are NOT Violating ANY CITY, STATE OR FEDERAL LAW.
Engrave away, Just do not put the short upper on until you have the approved form in your hands.
That i know directly from the ATF, multiple agents if you need to know .
Why anyone is concerned the feds read this or other gun forums i don't understand. If you advocate violating fed law you don't last long on the site.
I know the 3 agents for this area....they don't know because they refer you to NFA branch when you ask anything NFA related. (I'm an FFL/SOT/FEL holder too)
Why anyone is concerned the feds read this or other gun forums i don't understand. If you advocate violating fed law you don't last long on the site.
I've seen people selling explosive devices on this site and the response I got from the mod of that section was that of lack of care and ignorance.
I've seen people selling explosive devices on this site and the response I got from the mod of that section was that of lack of care and ignorance.
When and what was this
Circuits
08-31-2012, 01:17
Yeah....disagree with the guy at NFA who is 1) a federal agent and 2) does this every day for a living....GREAT advise! I'm suprised you even got an FFL with your "I'll do what I want" attitude. You do know that BATFE reads this forum, right? I suggest when giving advise that may or may not get someone else in legal trouble, that you stick to what you can confirm and leave the things you think you know to campfires and beer stories. If unsure which is which, pick up the phone and call them yourself. Hell, I had to do that regarding barrel length. It took 5 minutes to confirm that I had old info and get it straight. I would think that a businessman, let alone a FFL/SOT holder, would understand this simple principle.
On a side note: Your not the guy from American Guns, are you? You have the same BS know it all attitude as him.....
Guy from ATF is a contractor hired to answer the phones (Ken Mason?) ... not a "federal agent".
I understand the principles involved better than you seem to understand.
What someone tells you over the phone is not legal advice, unless such person is your lawyer, or a district or US attorney.
I do not advocate flouting or ignoring the laws of Colorado or the United States. Your essential fallacy is inferring that the "decent advice" give you by a "contractor" constitutes rock bottom legal principle.
I am not conducting my businesses, or basing my knowledge, on what a call to the ATF branch tells me. I actually read the relevant federal code, and temper my advice with real-world experience against the platitudes and rules of thumb given me over the phone.
I'm sorry if that's too hard for you. Life isn't necessarily easy.
Great-Kazoo
08-31-2012, 08:01
I've seen people selling explosive devices on this site and the response I got from the mod of that section was that of lack of care and ignorance.
Define explosive devices and who the seller was?
I have seen some things i questioned but the answer i received was satisfactory regarding legality in CO.
Define explosive devices and who the seller was?
I have seen some things i questioned but the answer i received was satisfactory regarding legality in CO.
Same here but everything I saw actually legal. wondering what it was
Define explosive devices and who the seller was?
I have seen some things i questioned but the answer i received was satisfactory regarding legality in CO.
Same here but everything I saw actually legal. wondering what it was
M18 Smoke grenades about 1 1/2 years ago. The M201A1 igniter used in them are considered explosive devices that require a FEL to posess or transfer.
Guy from ATF is a contractor hired to answer the phones (Ken Mason?) ... not a "federal agent".
I understand the principles involved better than you seem to understand.
What someone tells you over the phone is not legal advice, unless such person is your lawyer, or a district or US attorney.
I do not advocate flouting or ignoring the laws of Colorado or the United States. Your essential fallacy is inferring that the "decent advice" give you by a "contractor" constitutes rock bottom legal principle.
I am not conducting my businesses, or basing my knowledge, on what a call to the ATF branch tells me. I actually read the relevant federal code, and temper my advice with real-world experience against the platitudes and rules of thumb given me over the phone.
I'm sorry if that's too hard for you. Life isn't necessarily easy.
Again, keep what you think you know to campfire stories. I'l continue with what I can confirm. Either way, you're going to do whatever you want, regardless of what anyone provides or says. Have fun in your little bubble of a world there.
Circuits
08-31-2012, 11:25
Again, keep what you think you know to campfire stories. I'l continue with what I can confirm. Either way, you're going to do whatever you want, regardless of what anyone provides or says. Have fun in your little bubble of a world there.
I think I'll spread what I "think I know" around more than campfires. You go on confirming and misinforming. You can call me to confirm that, if you need to.
Thanks for the cheeky advice on my bubble - I'll be sure to check it regularly.
HoneyBadger
08-31-2012, 11:49
Alright boys, is the pissing match done now?
I hadn't chatted with the NFA branch for a while, figured it'd be a good time and to find out when my stuff went pending too (mid June, looking at clearing in December).
Per specialist Janice Fields:
Shorter barrel than on the Form 1? No problem, an SBR is an SBR. A permanent change requires a form of course.
Ordering parts before you have a form 1 in hand? I don't like the answer:
It's OK to get parts but don't store them in the same place as the other parts that would allow an SBR to be assembled until you get the Form 1. Before anyone points out that makes no sense and is contrary to the FAQ, I agree, that position has more holes than Swiss cheese.
What does make sense is that realistically in some cases you absolutely NEED the parts in hand in order to correctly fill out the form 1 (like overall length). Sounds like the NFA branch is willing to "overlook" short-term possession (but not assembly, of course) of the necessary parts. No, I don't like being told "Don't worry, be happy, we won't arrest you."
I was referred to one of their technical folks for my questions about possessing a mix of short and long uppers and a mix of normal and SBR lowers, as well as engraving. That will have to wait until sometime next week.
O2
Ps. On engraving: Your firearm is a title I firearm, not governed by any kind of NFA rules until it becomes a title II by approval of the Form 1. At THAT point what Ken Mason has to say matters. Until that time, it’s a plain-Jane title I firearm, and you can engrave anything your heart desires on a title 1 firearm (for example it might be a good idea to engrave your name, city and state on the receiver in case it gets lost or stolen:)). But I’m still going to chat with the technical folks about it.
Great-Kazoo
08-31-2012, 16:32
I hadn't chatted with the NFA branch for a while, figured it'd be a good time and to find out when my stuff went pending too (mid June, looking at clearing in December).
Per specialist Janice Fields:
Shorter barrel than on the Form 1? No problem, an SBR is an SBR. A permanent change requires a form of course.
Ordering parts before you have a form 1 in hand? I don't like the answer:
It's OK to get parts but don't store them in the same place as the other parts that would allow an SBR to be assembled until you get the Form 1. Before anyone points out that makes no sense and is contrary to the FAQ, I agree, that position has more holes than Swiss cheese.
What does make sense is that realistically in some cases you absolutely NEED the parts in hand in order to correctly fill out the form 1 (like overall length). Sounds like the NFA branch is willing to "overlook" short-term possession (but not assembly, of course) of the necessary parts. No, I don't like being told "Don't worry, be happy, we won't arrest you."
I was referred to one of their technical folks for my questions about possessing a mix of short and long uppers and a mix of normal and SBR lowers, as well as engraving. That will have to wait until sometime next week.
O2
Ps. On engraving: Your firearm is a title I firearm, not governed by any kind of NFA rules until it becomes a title II by approval of the Form 1. At THAT point what Ken Mason has to say matters. Until that time, it’s a plain-Jane title I firearm, and you can engrave anything your heart desires on a title 1 firearm (for example it might be a good idea to engrave your name, city and state on the receiver in case it gets lost or stolen:)). But I’m still going to chat with the technical folks about it.
Ditto for me replies this morning.
The engraving is not the issues with anything NFA. Assembling in to a less than 16" bbl configuration without the correct approval, is the problem.
HOWEVER as adults we hopefully possess enough of a brain that we know legal from Illegal when it comes to firearms.
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