Voter fraud? Here in Colorado? No way?

[Rooskibar03]

Seems like Gilpin, among other, county has some explaining to do.

http://www.redstate.com/2012/09/04/colorado-counties-have-more-voters-than-people/

[nynco]

I suspect this is thanks to electronic voting machines. I have said and will keep on repeating, that it is PURE INSANITY to vote on electronic voting machines that are connected to the net that have no paper trail. Even more insane that we vote on machines owned by private for profit corporations that have ties to some of those who are running in the election. Even more insane that the software is not open source and able to be inspected by the public because it is "proprietary". Screw all of that honor all those who fought for freedom by tossing those "voting machines" into the trash. Go back to paper ballots, have them counted by hand. That way we can audit them should any issue arise.

While we are at it, go to instant run off voting so we can break the two party dictatorship we are enslaved too. If you don't know what IRV is read up on it. It will give you the chance to vote for who you want to win and then as your second or third vote for the lessor of two evils. Gary Johnson would have a chance so would Jill Stein or the Constitutionalist party guy. I don't care, I just want to make this country better and breaking the 2 party grip on power is a win win for us all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting_in_the_United_States
http://www.fairvote.org/instant-runoff-voting#.UJ2MdIfZboI
http://www.instantrunoff.com/

[Aloha_Shooter]

IRV is an interesting concept but any notion that Gary Johnson, Jill Stein or Roseanne Barr would have a practical (as opposed to theoretical) chance to win is an illusion. Game theory -- as well as history -- shows why the two party system evolves the way it does. All TR's third-party run did was hand the election to the less fractured coalition, i.e., Wilson.

The Socialists will win as long as the social traditionalists (i.e., religious or cultural conservatives), libertarians, fiscal conservatives, country clubbers, etc. remain in their own little separate anti-Socialist camps pooh-poohing the others. Everyone involved in that fracture -- whether it's country clubbers looking down on Tea Partiers, libertarians disdaining social traditionalists, etc. -- is equally responsible with the morons who think Obama can run an economy or country and actively support him.

[nynco]

If those other candidates have a practical chance or not does not matter to me. I want the best person to win and I want people to have the freedom to vote for who they think is the best. They can chose Demopublican as their lessor of two evils too. Thankfully more independants are taking national office. Hopefully those independants will help fight to end the two party dictatorship. I know Bernie Sanders is all for IVR and he just got reelected by a MASSIVE margin. Over 70% voted for him. Vermont is a great state that has some of the most liberal (meaning free) laws in the nation when it comes to gun ownership too.

Also quite with the socialist garbage. Norway is a "socialist country" and its perfectly legal to own a suppressor there. No system is perfect but the world is not black and white. We need a mix of what works and what does not tossed out. A system where we have one extreme like Laisezze Fair economics is just as bad as communism. The countries that are the most functional are the ones that have a blend of things. Democratic socialism is not communism. So break out of that limited way of thinking.

[Aloha_Shooter]

It also costs $20-40 to eat lunch in Norway but what does economic theory have to do with Second Amendment rights? You're free to move to Germany, Norway, Sweden, France, etc. if you like democratic socialism so much; why do we have to convert the one place in the world that is actually supposed to operate under a theory of democratic capitalism?

Bernie Sanders is a self-inflating arse and Vermont is welcome to him but none of this has anything to do with the OP which was about how various counties (which amazingly went for Obama) suspiciously reported voter totals greater than their populations.

[nynco]

You are free to disagree with me. I want you to have the freedom to vote for the candidate that you think will lead the nation better.

Part of the reason it costs that much in Norway is the US dollar is worth crap. But the amount a Norwegian gets paid actually makes their purchasing power greater than the average Americans after the costs of life are taken out. So its apples to oranges that way. I can say that Norway has DOUBLE the rate of small business and entrepreneurs than the US has. Today the US has half the entrepreneurs that it did during the Carter years.

Now you are free to disagree with me, but I like to look at facts and the facts show that we have something to learn. I suggest you read this with an open mind.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html

Now as to the suspicious voter issues. I agree any instance where there is a problem, we need to investigate and JAIL anyone found guilt for a LONG TIME. To me that is akin treason. But one way we can fix this is to toss all the voting machines that can be hacked. Its just too dangerous for the nation to have a system that compromises the core basis of the nation. Computers are hackable. One hacker could perform a quite coup.

[PSS]

You are free to disagree with me. I want you to have the freedom to vote for the candidate that you think will lead the nation better.

Part of the reason it costs that much in Norway is the US dollar is worth crap. But the amount a Norwegian gets paid actually makes their purchasing power greater than the average Americans after the costs of life are taken out. So its apples to oranges that way. I can say that Norway has DOUBLE the rate of small business and entrepreneurs than the US has. Today the US has half the entrepreneurs that it did during the Carter years.

Now you are free to disagree with me, but I like to look at facts and the facts show that we have something to learn. I suggest you read this with an open mind.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html

Now as to the suspicious voter issues. I agree any instance where there is a problem, we need to investigate and JAIL anyone found guilt for a LONG TIME. To me that is akin treason. But one way we can fix this is to toss all the voting machines that can be hacked. Its just too dangerous for the nation to have a system that compromises the core basis of the nation. Computers are hackable. One hacker could perform a quite coup.

1 US dollar is worth 5.86 Krone. How is that crap? If the average wage is 1400$ US and they take 38% out in taxes that comes to 868 take home pay a week. Not so great if lunches cost 20-40.

[nynco]

Because if the average pay is higher then the amount of work it takes to make the money is the same. The standard of living for most Norwegians is higher than the US. l hope you read the article to learn more about it.

[PSS]

Norway's generous social benefits are financed largely from taxes that fall heavily on the country's richest people. The most controversial of these taxes is a wealth tax, a 1.1 percent annual levy on the entirety of a person's holdings above about $117,000, including stock in private companies held by the owner. Can't agree with this. I'm not wealthy but don't think this is a just tax. You would support this in US?

[nynco]

I don't agree with everything they do. I just think that the world is not black and white and that we can learn from each others success and mistakes.

But just to draw a parallel. Isn't property tax almost the same as a holdings tax?

[PSS]

Oh, I can believe that we can learn, just don't agree that what is working at the moment for a nation of 5 million people that share mostly the same values, would begin to work here. I admire people the world over. Have had the pleasure to meet and work with a variety of people. I disagree with most people. People get the governments they deserve. According to the article, most Norwegians (at least the ones he interviewed) were willing to make substantial personal sacrifices to live in Norway. A small country like that has a lot of solidarity. It's a little more complex here. The people I work with (conservative blue collar) are people I respect who live good lives. If the country was made up of people mostly like them then I don't believe we would have a problem. And precisely the fact we don't is the reason why socialism won't work for us.

[low drag]

I've been there and you are wrong.

[low drag]

Because if the average pay is higher then the amount of work it takes to make the money is the same. The standard of living for most Norwegians is higher than the US. l hope you read the article to learn more about it.

I've been there and you are wrong.

[PSS]

Good people make a good government. Not the other way around. IMO

[nynco]

agree about good people part...and those who knee jerk hate gov running gov are going be a self fulfilling prophesy.

Also another fact Norway is polled as one of the if not the happiest nation in the world. The US does not crack anywhere near the top 10.

[DOC]

I am not surprised that voter fraud was taking place and if you want to know who did it. Its not any harder that looking at who won. That being said I'm sure nothing will be done about it even though this is the worst thing that can happen to a democracy. It amounts spying and treason and should be dealt with in the same manner once found guilty.

[nynco]

So Doc, does that mean you are in favor of scrapping all the hackable computer voting machines and going back to a paper ballot.

[spqrzilla]

A system where we have one extreme like Laisezze Fair economics is just as bad as communism.

Laissez faire economics has not murdered over one hundred million people as communism has.

[nynco]

Sure it has it just does it through apathy.

[spqrzilla]

Voter fraud today is mostly accomplished the old fashioned way. Multiple voting using the Democrats' opposition to voter ID laws.

[DOC]

So Doc, does that mean you are in favor of scrapping all the hackable computer voting machines and going back to a paper ballot.
I would if its proven to be a weak link. I would also be in favor of requiring voting in person with ID required and even background checks of some form or another before issuing a ballot. Whatever it takes to eliminate fraud.
Right now its a joke.

[nynco]

So what about the 90 year old war veteran in a home who can not get out of bed, lost his ID 20 years ago and was born in a barn and has no birth certificate. Those hard ID requirements just stole his constitutional right that he fought to preserve.

As to the computers... well its been proven to be broke. Its been proven to be hackable (go to youtube and type voting machine hacking) and it has been shown more than once to have instances of more votes than voters or election results that flip. Its dangerous and could lead to some REALLY bad things.

[DOC]

He wouldn't be able to buy a pack of smokes either. But no one would be up in arms for him then. He would just have to get his shit together before its time to vote. I would help him do it. Drive him to the DMV, Vital Statistics and Polling place. But I wouldn't let him get out of it just because its easier to not require all that. There is to much at stake and its to easy to abuse. We need better protections than a paddle lock on the ballot box.

ETA: Or just have a dedicated group of fine upstanding and thoroughly checked out individuals go to peoples homes that might be in the position you described and issue them a ballot. With the number of ballots being tracked like they were gold.
I would be fine with it just to avoid a fraud like Obama getting reelected.

[nynco]

buyin a pack of smokes is not a constitutional right. BIG DIFFERENCE... Neither is driving. VOTING is a constitutional right.

[spqrzilla]

So what about the 90 year old war veteran in a home who can not get out of bed, lost his ID 20 years ago and was born in a barn and has no birth certificate. Those hard ID requirements just stole his constitutional right that he fought to preserve.

What a bizarre fantasy life you have.

[nynco]

Apparently you think everyone is like you. Get out more

[spqrzilla]

Rather brazen vote fraud in Florida (http://www.punditpress.com/2012/11/breaking-st-lucie-county-florida-had.html)

[Ah Pook]

All I see is someone bending stats to fit their argument. Take ten small counties with transient/seasonal populations. Go to work fabricating data.

[nynco]

Rather brazen voter fraud in Ohio in 2004 (more votes than voters in more than a few red counties) and FL in 2000 but you guys did not care because Bush got elected. Heck the supreme court stepped in in 2000 in stole election by ending the counting of votes.

Listen I don't give a crap if the people chose to elect a libertarian. But if we can not trust our elections, what do we have left?

[DOC]

buyin a pack of smokes is not a constitutional right. BIG DIFFERENCE... Neither is driving. VOTING is a constitutional right.
Owning a gun is a constitutional right and we have been forced to show ID when doing that. Its just not worth risking the fraud IMO.
Also, if it was made a big deal to get a ballot, maybe, people would treat it as a big deal to get out and vote too?

[spqrzilla]

Rather brazen voter fraud in Ohio in 2004 (more votes than voters in more than a few red counties) and FL in 2000 but you guys did not care because Bush got elected. Heck the supreme court stepped in in 2000 in stole election by ending the counting of votes.

Listen I don't give a crap if the people chose to elect a libertarian. But if we can not trust our elections, what do we have left?

You really are filled with utter nonsense and a bizarre fantasy life. Post election analyses by news media including the NYT you are so fond of found that Bush would have been the winner of the recounts if fairly applied.

[nynco]

Owning a gun is a constitutional right and we have been forced to show ID when doing that. Its just not worth risking the fraud IMO.
Also, if it was made a big deal to get a ballot, maybe, people would treat it as a big deal to get out and vote too?


Doc I am not averse to what you are saying. I just see the people trying to do it in ways that deny people their constitutional rights. You want to make that law. Fine, create a system that fixes the exceptional cases and also make it not come into effect for a decade. Give people time to be ready for the change. The current way of implementation had those who wanted those things wanting those changes over night.

[nynco]

You can read about what I am talking about here.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-34.htm

http://truth-out.org/news/item/12479-election-2012-they-will-steal-it

"If all the ballots had been reviewed under any of seven single standards, and combined with the results of an examination of overvotes, Mr. Gore would have won, by a very narrow margin." Ford Fessenden and John M. Broder,New York Times , Nov. 12, 2001.
http://www.alternet.org/story/86585/new_york_times_perpetuates_the_myth_that_george_bu sh_won_the_2000_election

[DOC]

Well I'm glad AlGore didn't win. It gave him more time to work on his other scams like the Global Warming scam and the Climate Change scam and the most profitable the Carbon Credit scam. He would have just wasted away as President apologizing to Afghanistan for putting our buildings in the way of their planes on 9/11. It would have eased the pressure on himself to get back to screwing the rest of America. But unless the votes were really in his favor with no fraud then he should have won. But if you take out the fraud I think it would have been a landslide for Bush.

[nynco]

Well DOC both you and I think there is a problem with the elections. No one on the right cared when it was their guys getting elected. I don't really care about your opinions on what you think Gore would have done. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is that our election system is broke and neither side can trust it. That is bad news for the long term health of this nation. That needs to be fixed.

[nynco]

Ex-Employee of HART Intercivic Voting Machines Blows Whistle
http://www.politicolnews.com/ex-employee-of-hart-intercivic-voting-machines-blows-whistle/

Fox news shows hacking of voting machines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4FPuLNjvAc

Here peruse youtube for actual videos of people doing it. It took one kid less than 15 seconds in a video I saw a few years back.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hacking+voting+machines&oq=hack&gs_l=youtube.3.0.35i39j0l9.825.3657.0.4907.14.7.5. 2.3.0.150.737.3j4.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.NLD_ecYy7-U

[DOC]

Well DOC both you and I think there is a problem with the elections. No one on the right cared when it was their guys getting elected. I don't really care about your opinions on what you think Gore would have done. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is that our election system is broke and neither side can trust it. That is bad news for the long term health of this nation. That needs to be fixed.
I know it doesn't matter what I think about Gore. He just gets on my nerves. The system needs fixed and better regulated. And I hate regulations.

[nynco]

agreed

[DOC]

What can we do about it? Complaining on a message board doesn't get it fixed. Its a start IMHO.

[nynco]

Well for one we need to educate everyone we meet on the subject. Every little bit helps. We also need to make this a state, local and federal issue. Because it effects ALL elections.

I personally follow this site a lot for info.
http://blackboxvoting.org/

I have also brought it up with my elected officials in person. We are very good at voicing our concern about gun owner rights. Voting issues should be a concern for us all too. Its not a left right issue. Its an issue that bridges that divide. It's just a matter of getting the corrupt politicians to do something about it. Part of the problem is there are politicians who now have business interests in this corrupt for profit election machine system. I don't care if you supported Romney. But I think it is just a REALLY bad thing that Romneys son has a major stake in the voting machine company that runs Ohio. That is a big conflict of interest there. Frankly we need to go voting machines like NY use to use (might still too) it was a lever system. You would have to mess with the gears on it to get it to be corrupt. Which could happen. But even then, it produces a ballot that the person can read and a ballot that could be counted by hand.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So let's do it like we made the Iraqis and Afghans do it. Everyone votes in person over the course of one week and gets their thumb marked with indelible ink. Anyone who needs help to get to the poll or a special visit from a poll worker and witnesses gets it with proof of need. Watch everyone walking around with purple thumb syndrome -- anyone attempting to vote twice gets tossed out of the country for at least two weeks while we sort it all out (no provisions from the federal government -- they get along on their own means or charity of others).

[nynco]

I am not averse to that either Aloha. I think its pure bullshit that our election day is not a national holiday. I would make it one and also make early voting possible for all elections at least a week ahead of time. We have holidays for way too many things that don't matter. Elections and voting are a patriotic duty. Far more worthy than Columbus Day.

[tmleadr03]

When did that troll nynco get back? Just here for the election aftermath? One can only hope.

[nynco]

Why don't you get some class there Tmleader... or would you prefer me to treat you the same way and just call you an asshole?

[DOC]

I'm down for a punishment or even an insensitive to vote like waivers from paying taxes that year. Or a discount on renewing your license plates would even work.