How much damage from Obamacare?

[josh7328]

I've been reading some pretty scary stuff lately about the horrible economic impact that ObamaCare is going to have when it takes effect. Just how far do you guys expect OCare to drag the economy down? With the combination of increasing cost of almost all goods and services, killing jobs and shutting down companies, and decreasing the number of medical professionals, it seems like almost an economic 'perfect storm'. A perfect model of how to kill a country's economy. Please tell me I'm over reacting.

[Teufelhund]

Here's some shit to get your blood boiling. According to the liberals, companies are just laying people off out of spite and meanness. [Bang]

Marine buddy of mine, who is also somehow a stupid ass liberal, posted this up on FB. I noticed he shared it from a page entitled "LIBERAL and PROUD of it." It inspired a not-so-friendly discussion between his idiot liberal friends and I.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644043_494201197268417_177645191_n.jpg

[Great-Kazoo]

I was told by my nurse, 1 major player in the NoCo area will see an easy 50% retirement of Dr & Surgeons, by end of 2013, early 14. She is currently retraining for another career outside the medical field.

[josh7328]

I have too short a fuze with libs to have them on my FB anymore. I've removed friends and family for saying stupid things like that. You may have seen my threads a while ago about my FB debates. I've since decided that I just can't deal with them pissing me off every day and removed them. The quiet has been nice.

Saying that companies would close their doors and alienate their employees just to throw a temper tantrum is stupid, and shows an extreme lack of understanding... of anything.

[Kraven251]

I am far from saying that the "reform" to health care is a good thing, but does anyone know of any analysts etc that have really dug into the forest killing book that was that whole thing. I can read parts of it and understand it, but then it takes a right turn in the middle of a sentence that puts me in the middle of WTF land.

I'm not a lawyer and definitely do not want to even play one on the internet, but I would love some clarity on what it is going to do. My biggest problem is I keep hearing about the repercussions, but not really what is the driving force behind them. I honestly want to be better informed, any takers?

[streetglideok]

Theres alot of things going on with obamacare. You have the part, where employers must provide medical benefits to fulltime employees, or face penalties. Then, you have the escape clause, where if they are part time, they don't have to. Then, for the part timers, they will have to find their own insurance, or get hit with a tax at the end of the year. Then there is the payment of services to doctors and hospitals. They will only pay one time for a problem. If you think you need to go back and see the doctor, he's going to push you out for a month. This is just some of what happens to our friends to the north. The insurance costs will go up due to all the regulatory changes. Some things that used to be covered, will not be now, ie certain things regarding the use of oxygen. My wife could go on about it, as she is in the medical field. The majority of healthcare providers are advocates of the patients. They are interested in the patient's wellbeing. That said, very few are backing Obamacare. That should tell you alot.

[Kraven251]

Thanks for the summation, so much about this I feel so damn ignorant about. Unfortunately, most of what I find online is so tainted left or right, it is hard to see what is really happening, and it makes me wonder if anyone actually knows what all is in the legislation.

[streetglideok]

Hell, crazy Nancy Pelosi doesn't even know whats in it, and she voted for the thing.

[Kraven251]

Hell, crazy Nancy Pelosi doesn't even know whats in it, and she voted for the thing.

I'm surprised she knows what planet she is waking up on.

[spqrzilla]

I'm surprised she knows what planet she is waking up on.What makes you think she does?

[Aloha_Shooter]

I wish you WERE overreacting but ...

- what happens when a sizable chunk of Americans that are still working go from 40+ hours/week to 29 hours/week?
- what happens when companies intentionally cap their full time employees at 49?
- what happens when the Treasury is no longer able to find people willing to lend the US money at near-zero rates?
- what happens when the Fed HAS to raise interest rates in order to get people to loan us money?
- what happens when American paper is so devalued that even the Chinese won't loan us money?
- what happens when investors stop investing, choosing instead to put their cash into safe holding or precious metals?
- what happens when the bill comes due?

[ronaldrwl]

sizable chunk of Americans that are still working go from 40+ hours/week to 29 hours/week?


I'm expecting a lot of this. It will be cheaper to have to part workers instead of one full time.

[Sawin]

I wish you WERE overreacting but ...

- what happens when a sizable chunk of Americans that are still working go from 40+ hours/week to 29 hours/week?
- what happens when companies intentionally cap their full time employees at 49?
- what happens when the Treasury is no longer able to find people willing to lend the US money at near-zero rates?
- what happens when the Fed HAS to raise interest rates in order to get people to loan us money?
- what happens when American paper is so devalued that even the Chinese won't loan us money?
- what happens when investors stop investing, choosing instead to put their cash into safe holding or precious metals?
- what happens when the bill comes due?

In addition to these terrific points, take our sources of power for example. Namely, fossil fuels. The oil, natural gas, and coal companies are going to increase their prices due to their increased costs, creating the self perpetuating, and ever increasing cycle of inflation...Not only do your examples add to the trouble of inflation, but inflation adds to the trouble of your examples. The financial future of our country is as bleak as it's ever been.

[losttrail]

Over the years we have been seeing a 5%-7% increase in our annual healthcare premiums for the plan provided through my wife's employer; roughly an additional $15-$20 per check every two weeks per year increase. Not fun, but manageable.

However, after the initial implementation of Obamacare, upon the next renewal of our insurance in 2011, our premiums increased $57 per paycheck. Then in 2012 another $32 per paycheck.

It's going to get worse. Obama and his minions are a bunch of lying Marxists that are determined to destroy our nation and getting control of the healthcare system is the primary means.

[roberth]

I wish you WERE overreacting but ...

- what happens when a sizable chunk of Americans that are still working go from 40+ hours/week to 29 hours/week? We walk to our 2nd job
- what happens when companies intentionally cap their full time employees at 49? Lawsuits
- what happens when the Treasury is no longer able to find people willing to lend the US money at near-zero rates? Hey, look at all the 401K money sitting there on Wall Street doing nothing
- what happens when the Fed HAS to raise interest rates in order to get people to loan us money? Car and home sales plummet
- what happens when American paper is so devalued that even the Chinese won't loan us money? We (.gov) can do some real good with all that 401K money
- what happens when investors stop investing, choosing instead to put their cash into safe holding or precious metals? Read up on executive order 6102 - Hoarding gold
- what happens when the bill comes due? The well know substance will hit the electrical convenience


In addition to these terrific points, take our sources of power for example. Namely, fossil fuels. The oil, natural gas, and coal companies are going to increase their prices due to their increased costs, creating the self perpetuating, and ever increasing cycle of inflation...Not only do your examples add to the trouble of inflation, but inflation adds to the trouble of your examples. The financial future of our country is as bleak as it's ever been.

Both of you are RIGHT ON POINT. I added some comments in BLUE

[spqrzilla]

"Lawsuits" is not a response to the point about companies intentionally limited / structuring themselves to avoid the 50 employee limit. Its not illegal to do so.

Obamacare is already holding down employment and it will continue to do so. Democrats do not care.

[roberth]

"Lawsuits" is not a response to the point about companies intentionally limited / structuring themselves to avoid the 50 employee limit. Its not illegal to do so.

Obamacare is already holding down employment and it will continue to do so. Democrats do not care.

You're right, I misunderstood the statement. 50 does not represent age, 50 represents the number of employees.

Your second comment is on target too, small business is contracting not expanding so the count of 50 employees is irrelevant for the most part.

[spqrzilla]

Meanwhile, the Community College of Allegheny PA shows the future, cutting 400 adjunct instructors and support staff to less than 30 hrs weekly to avoid being forced to pay for the insurance.

Democrats really do hate working people.

[brianakell]

Interesting on a number of things people didnt think about. Union workers who get paid healthcare, costs the company a pile of money. Guess whats cheaper for the company, $2k annual fine per employee. Walla, more people on the gov program.

From a biz standpoint, its very easy to limit employees to part time only, and hire more people. And with how you can structure companies, very easy to make minimal changes on smaller businesses, and stay under the 50 limit as well. Many companies do this already to limit liability, and make more work or a lawyer. Example, setup a manufacturing company, retail, and design. Design only does work that will be made by the manufacturing company, which only manufacturers for the retail company. Completely legal, and now you have 150 limit. Add in some divisions on those, and you can very easily make that number double, triple and more. With nothing more than a little paperwork with your CPA.

Other answers, think Carter interest rates.

Ive come to the realization, that paying off the national debt is never going to happen, just a revolving door. If I recall right, $45 million in 1781. Though was actually paid off in 1835, started again in 1836.

The Chinese stopped loaning, at least for while, maybe still, a couple years ago.

What happens when no one will loan, you already answered, raise the interest rate.

Investors, big money guys, will make money whatever way they can, and will do. Foreign markets, precious metals, etc. Someone is always moving up, and someone else down, just got to play the cards right and you win!

As for obonzo care. Knowing someone on it for a couple years, premium has nearly doubled in the last couple years. And costs more than private insurance would if they were insurable, about double actually. Odd that the subsidized costs the most. And while the program cannot refuse, they can just drag feet and not accept. Watched this happen as well, going on 2+ years now. As for treatments, "you dont need that test" "I dont think that's necassary" And getting appointments, goes on waiting period for a bit too. You want care, and things done now, pay out of pocket. FWIW, many canadians carry supplemental health insurance on top of their gov health care coverage.

[Aloha_Shooter]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636.html

Cox and Archer: Why $16 Trillion Only Hints at the True U.S. Debt
Hiding the government's liabilities from the public makes it seem that we can tax our way out of mounting deficits. We can't. Some highlights:


For years, the government has gotten by without having to produce the kind of financial statements that are required of most significant for-profit and nonprofit enterprises. The U.S. Treasury "balance sheet" does list liabilities such as Treasury debt issued to the public, federal employee pensions, and post-retirement health benefits. But it does not include the unfunded liabilities of Medicare, Social Security and other outsized and very real obligations.

The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion.

As of the most recent Trustees' report in April, the net present value of the unfunded liability of Medicare was $42.8 trillion. The comparable balance sheet liability for Social Security is $20.5 trillion.

When combined with funding the general cash deficits, these multitrillion-dollar Treasury operations will dominate the capital markets in the years ahead, particularly given China's de-emphasis of new investment in U.S. Treasurys in favor of increasing foreign direct investment, and Japan's and Europe's own sovereign-debt challenges.

to collect enough tax revenue just to avoid going deeper into debt would require over $8 trillion in tax collections annually. That is the total of the average annual accrued liabilities of just the two largest entitlement programs, plus the annual cash deficit.

I was concerned about Weimar Republic-level deflation before but the size of these numbers is just staggering -- and my criticism is inherently non-partisan since Bush the Younger added to this overwhelming deficit with the Medicare Part D giveaways. Time to dig out some history books and see what strategies preserved capital during that era.

[tmckay2]

most of my in laws are canadian. to be honest i think people are overreacting about obama care. i hate it as much as anyone but i don't think it is going to cripple the country. canada has an even worse system and they're fine. its not a good system but it doesn't cause the country to implode. i think you are going to see higher health care costs, less doctors, more patients, longer wait times, and a small affect on the economy. business owners aren't just going to lay tons of people off on a grand scale. it will happen a little bit but not like people think.

[Eggysrun]

my tricare premiums are likely going to go up from what I've heard 345% in the next 5 years, so my monthly pay from the army reserves won't be enough (after taxes I get $240, tricare costs me $192/month)

I joined the reserves after I got out of active duty so my wife could have healthcare :sigh:

[Ronin13]

I've been hearing mixed responses to a very important question- as a 50%+ Service Connected Disabled Vet (SCDV), I have all my medical needs taken care of by the VA. I would like some clarity on the issue that I can't seem to get a clear answer on, will Ocare mess with my VA medical? Will I have to get additional insurance or pay the tax (fee)? I heard that VA is unaffected by OCare, but I want to be sure, otherwise I'm going to be screaming profanities outside both the white house and capital hill.

[spqrzilla]

Meanwhile, the Obama administration is blaming the states when in fact they can't get their own act together.
HHS had a deadline of this October for states to announce whether they would set up exchanges but HHS had not even announced the regulations on what the policies offered in the exchanges had to contain - because they were hiding it from voters.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/28/wsj-yep-the-feds-are-totally-unprepared-to-launch-obamacare-exchanges/

[Aloha_Shooter]

Ronin -- Ocare won't mess with your VA medical until they need to and until they've convinced everyone that you shouldn't have special privileges. The whole damned program is an incremental decay like turning the heat up slowly on the frog in the pot of water.

[Ronin13]

Ronin -- Ocare won't mess with your VA medical until they need to and until they've convinced everyone that you shouldn't have special privileges. The whole damned program is an incremental decay like turning the heat up slowly on the frog in the pot of water.
So I should expect the shite to roll down hill eventually then?

[losttrail]

It's already hitting my oldest brother who served 24+ years in the Navy. Retired in '91 and is now facing some rather serious health issues. He has to travel from MT to the Mayo Clinic in AZ every 2-3 months. Tri Care is already reducing the amount they are paying and he just started treatments this past January.

They may end up having to sell their MT home and move to AZ to be closer to the clinic. So far neither my brother nor sister-in-law are impressed with anything in the Phoenix area.

[davsel]

So, my new Tricare Prime rate notification came in.

My retired rate increases 600% on 01 November.

Check your statements, brothers.

[ray1970]

My company is seeing a 4.2 million dollar increase in what it pays. Obviously, they are passing some of that cost on to its employees. The rest, I'm fairly certain will be passed on to our customers. Who, in turn, will pass it on to their customers. Don't worry. Everybody will see everything cost more due to Obamacare. Not just the cost of your health insurance.

[spqrzilla]

We are already seeing the economic effects of Obamacare in the massive underemployment/unemployment in this country.

[spqrzilla]

Meanwhile, the Obama administration is blaming the states when in fact they can't get their own act together.
HHS had a deadline of this October for states to announce whether they would set up exchanges but HHS had not even announced the regulations on what the policies offered in the exchanges had to contain - because they were hiding it from voters.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/28/wsj-yep-the-feds-are-totally-unprepared-to-launch-obamacare-exchanges/

I wrote the above in November of 2012. Look how prescient I was.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So, my new Tricare Prime rate notification came in.

My retired rate increases 600% on 01 November.

Check your statements, brothers.

I went Tricare Standard precisely because I don't want my healthcare ruled by a government "Primary Care Monitor". I haven't been back to the base for healthcare since my examination for an ankle injury suffered during terminal leave (which the VA disallowed because the first appointment Tricare could give me was a week past my official retirement date).

[jerrymrc]

- what happens when companies intentionally cap their full time employees at 49? I know how one company is doing it. Friend owns a large machine shop. They just spun the anodizing and heat treating part into another company. Built a wall in the building and presto 2 company's. 40 on one side and 18 on the other. [Flower]

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I was told by my nurse, 1 major player in the NoCo area will see an easy 50% retirement of Dr & Surgeons, by end of 2013, early 14. She is currently retraining for another career outside the medical field.

Or joining ACOs. If I were a physician and could retire, I would.
If not, I'd join all the other groups banding together or try to get myself "bought" by an ACO.


most of my in laws are canadian. to be honest i think people are overreacting about obama care. i hate it as much as anyone but i don't think it is going to cripple the country. canada has an even worse system and they're fine. its not a good system but it doesn't cause the country to implode. i think you are going to see higher health care costs, less doctors, more patients, longer wait times, and a small affect on the economy. business owners aren't just going to lay tons of people off on a grand scale. it will happen a little bit but not like people think.

Canadians don't have nearly the dead weight we have. $0.02

[Aloha_Shooter]

Canadians don't have nearly the dead weight we have. $0.02

Canada also requires they balance their budget so they HAVE to be somewhat realistic about their funding. Then again, Canada doesn't pretend to be the world's superpower and policeman so they depend on OUR national security expenditures to protect them (they develop very little equipment natively and expect we will be there for anything big).

Sorry tmckay2 but Ocare is going to be a massive drag on the economy for years to come and it WILL cause our national finances to implode. Expect wait times of 6-9 months to see a doctor for cancer diagnosis and treatment (but of course abortions and condoms will be available immediately on demand).

[hurley842002]

I think you are going to see higher health care costs, less doctors, more patients, longer wait times, and a small affect on the economy.

How/why is this even remotely okay or acceptable?

[Great-Kazoo]

How/why is this even remotely okay or acceptable?

Because 50% of America want's it, Voted for it (election 2012) and will do any and everything to maintain their entitlements. You want me to do what?? Of course they will be some of the hardest hit.

[rondog]

I still think that once everyone finds out how bad it really is, that it'll get tossed out on its ass. I'm hoping it will be Obama's Waterloo, Watergate, and intern under the desk all rolled into one.

[Ronin13]

Megyn Kelly was talking about this last night- I missed the show, but caught a recap in a Blaze article. An anticipated 14M American's insurance will be cancelled by the end of term because they're "illegal under the ACA." And yet Oblahblah said himself "If you like your insurance company you can keep them, period." Note, he said "Period" no "asterisk."

Allow me to place some tin foil on the top of my head for a moment- I think the dems want Obamacare to fail, miserably, so that people demand the government do something, and like Pelosi stated "This is just a stepping stone to [socialized healthcare]." Boom, we're just like the UK and Canada with single payer, socialized healthcare... and all the exorbitant taxes that go with it. Batten down the hatches boys, it's going to be rough seas from here on out.

[Zundfolge]

Allow me to place some tin foil on the top of my head for a moment- I think the dems want Obamacare to fail, miserably, so that people demand the government do something, and like Pelosi stated "This is just a stepping stone to [socialized healthcare]." Boom, we're just like the UK and Canada with single payer, socialized healthcare... and all the exorbitant taxes that go with it. Batten down the hatches boys, it's going to be rough seas from here on out.

This is absolutely the plan for Obamacare and Obama himself said it (along with many other prominent Demonrats).

One of the reasons why socialized medicine hasn't destroyed Canada and the UK is that 1) they have a combined population less than a third of the US 2) the US has long subsidized their defense (and probably many other aspects of their governance) and 3) When Canuks and Limeys need medical care and they can't get it in their own socialized system they come here.

So all three nations will likely collapse under the weight of Obamacare.


Really folks, the economic effects of Obamacare will likely be devastating ... but they're going to be nothing compared to the loss of life and liberty that is coming as a result.

[DavieD55]

Many people are blinded by the BS and don't understand that this is meant to be a failure. Considering how gullible the American people have become nowadays they will expect the same people who brought us this monstrosity to fix it too... Unless many states band together and nullify it we're fukt!

[roberth]

My employer is self-funded. The plan I'm on now is being cancelled, next year the plan won't be nearly as good and it will cost the same, I might get a discount because of my excellent health.

[anaphylaxis]

http://floppingaces.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/and-then-i-said1.jpg

[Great-Kazoo]

If only 6 people actually signed up for ACA, how much damage could there be? [hahhah-no]

[spqrzilla]

Six was the first day.

By the way, to meet their goal, they have to sign up 39,000 every day from now to the end of March.

[brutal]

My employer is self-funded. The plan I'm on now is being cancelled, next year the plan won't be nearly as good and it will cost the same, I might get a discount because of my excellent health.

We count our blessings that my wife's insurance is self funded by the hospital group she works for - Centura - and our costs are minimal if we stay in network. I do have to pay a little more for an office visit as my Doc is now out of network, but that's a small price to pay. My super awesome Ortho guy and one other Doc I see twice a year are both in network.

[Bailey Guns]

^^ Us, too. My wife works for a Centura hospital and we have excellent and very affordable coverage that is O'care compliant. I hope it stays that way.

[muddywings]

Figured i would put this here just for laughs:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-06/obamacares-insurance-cancellations-a-feature-not-a-bug?campaign_id=yhoo

Millions of Americans were surprised to learn this month that their insurance companies won’t renew their expiring private health plans next year (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-29/health-policies-canceled-in-latest-hurdle-for-obamacare.html), despite President Obama’s frequent assurances that people who liked their coverage could keep it. What’s mostly been lost in the well-documented outrage over the cancellations is that they’re a feature, not a bug, of the Affordable Care Act. Some policies are being canceled because the law is doing precisely what it was meant to do: create an insurance market where Americans share the cost of getting sick more broadly....

...It wouldn’t have been hard to explain. “Ideally they’re changing into a plan that’s going to provide greater value over time,” says Elaine Corrough, a fellow at the Society of Actuaries who consults with insurance companies and medical providers, “and, frankly, that’s going to allow more people to be covered.”
Although it’s a small percentage, the group represents millions of people who took the president at his word that their coverage would not have to change. Martin Klein, a 54-year-old psychologist in Fairfield, Conn., got a notice from Anthem in September that his health plan is being discontinued because it doesn’t meet the ACA’s standards. Klein, who describes himself as liberal and says he supports universal health insurance, nonetheless blames Obama for a reform that will drive his premiums up. He says the new plans he can buy all have higher deductibles for rates as much or more than the $554 a month he pays now.

“If he told the truth, I would not have voted for him,” Klein says of Obama. “This is hurting my family.”

*break break*
So you want universal health care but you don't want to pay more-should have gotten a degree in economics not psychology...dumbass

[Aloha_Shooter]

Martin Klein, a 54-year-old psychologist in Fairfield, Conn., got a notice from Anthem in September that his health plan is being discontinued because it doesn’t meet the ACA’s standards. Klein, who describes himself as liberal and says he supports universal health insurance, nonetheless blames Obama for a reform that will drive his premiums up. He says the new plans he can buy all have higher deductibles for rates as much or more than the $554 a month he pays now.

“If he told the truth, I would not have voted for him,” Klein says of Obama. “This is hurting my family.”

Figures the dumbarse is a psychologist. Stupid fsck is getting what he deserves but unfortunately, a lot of clearer-thinking people are getting something they DON'T deserve.

[brutal]

Health insurance does not equal access to Health care.

When will they figure this out?

It's beyond my comprehension how they got away calling this the Affordable CARE Act when it is only insurance, and certainly not affordable.

[Zundfolge]

Health insurance does not equal access to Health care.
Obamacare has nothing to do with health insurance or health care ... when will they figure THIS out?

Its about control. Once they crash the health insurance industry and get the people to demand "single payer" the Federal Government will effectively own your body. THAT is the end of all individual liberty. THAT is the end game.

[brutal]

Obamacare has nothing to do with health insurance or health care ... when will they figure THIS out?

Its about control. Once they crash the health insurance industry and get the people to demand "single payer" the Federal Government will effectively own your body. THAT is the end of all individual liberty. THAT is the end game.

I'll give ya that.

[muddywings]

Well it looks like we don't need congress no more! Guess he can just tell insurance companies to disregard the law and give people their insurance back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[kidicarus13]

What a circus

[Great-Kazoo]

What a circus

Circus! No it's a fucking EMBARRASSMENT, IF NOT CRIMINAL !
Gov shut down is the fault of UNREASONABLE, HOSTAKING, GUN TO HEAD TEA PARTY ELEMENTS Because they asked for a 1 year extension to ACA. NOW this piece of shit proposes something similar.

OBAMA LIED
MY INSURANCE POLICY IS FRIED.