Beer with a liberal

[Goodburbon]

Last night one of our neighbors came over for a few beers. She's a non working on disability person. Can only go to town once or twice a month because it costs $15 in gas. She professed to voting for Obama, because...

"The other guy was going to require her to get vouchers for her government funded medical treatments, and she just couldn't wait months to apply for and finally get vouchers because when you're sick you're sick.




Nice person, but a bit loony.

[nynco]

and because a voucher will never come close to covering the cost of her medical issues. Don't blame her for looking out for your own best interests. I am sure you would do the same. Healthcare is a real issue that is impoverishing and killing many people.

[esaabye]

and because a voucher will never come close to covering the cost of her medical issues. Don't blame her for looking out for your own best interests. I am sure you would do the same. Healthcare is a real issue that is impoverishing and killing many people.

I WILL blame her, her self interest will take money I earn away from my children and that is against MY self interest. Since it is MY labor that generates that money I tend to feel some sense of entitlement too it.

Yes, healthcare costs are a real issue, mostly driven by the artificial nature of the insurance dominated market place. I look at healthcare costs and college costs much the same, both are good examples of what happens to a market when actual costs are hidden from the consumer, they no longer force the market costs down via value based purchasing.

[nynco]

So she should just die then

And healthcare is not a commodity

[Teufelhund]

Well, nynco, maybe if the rest of us were forced to contribute more, we could keep everyone alive forever! Better yet, how about all you bleeding hearts who are convinced we can legislate our way out of death contribute the majority of your income to see if you can make it happen? Let us know if it works out and we'll kick in too.

[RMAC757]

I WILL blame her, her self interest will take money I earn away from my children and that is against MY self interest. Since it is MY labor that generates that money I tend to feel some sense of entitlement too it.

Yes, healthcare costs are a real issue, mostly driven by the artificial nature of the insurance dominated market place. I look at healthcare costs and college costs much the same, both are good examples of what happens to a market when actual costs are hidden from the consumer, they no longer force the market costs down via value based purchasing.

Exellent point

[nynco]

How in the heck is anyone supposed to earn the money for healthcare if they are sick in a hospital bed? A "Free Market" approach does not work. There is a reason all other civilized nations in the world have some form of universal healthcare. Because common sense tells you that healthcare is not a commodity. It is sociopathic to tell people to just die because they can not afford basic healthcare.

[esaabye]

So she should just die then

And healthcare is not a commodity


I'll just let my autistic son know that daddy can't pay for his treatment anymore because he needs to chip in for someone else. That is after I explain why I have to work 60-80 hours a week. It's OK, he won't understand and someday your kids can pay for his disability...

Life is full of choices and chances, no one said it would be fair or easy. Heath care is a commodity, as is food, water, housing and education. You are welcome to provide her any charity you wish but you have no right to assign the fruits of my labor.

[Teufelhund]

It's not sociopathy. It's natural selection. Life is not all sunshine and unicorns, and all the socialist welfare programs in the world aren't going to make it that way. You don't have a right to other people's shit, regardless of the reason.

[Rooskibar03]

Here is the problem with people like her. They don't understand, or care for that matter, where the money is coming from. They just see it as Government money, and do not understand that the Government has to take it from one person it give it to her.

Is heath care an issue? Sure. Much like everything else once the government starts to stick its nose in things, costs go us. Government doesn't want to pay fair wages for a Medicare/Medicaid treatment, fine costs get shifted to private insurance. Tort reform, insurance across state lines, and you have half the issue of healthcare costs in check.

Its a lot like college tuition. Why has the cost of college gone up 20-30% in the last 4 years? Simple, the government has made it easier for students to secure loans for their underwater basket weaving degree.

There is not one single example of anything the government runs that is more efficient then true private sector capitalism. Not one. Get the crony backroom deals out of the way and the free market will take over.

[jerrymrc]

There is not one single example of anything the government runs that is more efficient then true private sector capitalism. Not one. I know of one thing though small that they do better cost wise than the outside and that is only because they are not out to make a profit at it.

A PSA.. This is another topic that has the ability to spin out of control. Do not let it. I know the staff is tired of chasing kids around the school yard. I do not know why everyone is taking every major left vs right topic one by one and causing all this but reaction will be quick.[mop]

[nynco]

I am sorry you have an autistic son. I am even more sorry that you can't see how your politics is going to kill him someday. Because he will not have the skills to earn the cash to pay for the special needs that he has. Your autistic son could be the social Darwin victim that others are so wanton to cast into the trash pile. You think that schools that can handle autistic people are cheap. You are already receiving benefits that would be cut if other people that think like this had their way. He is a human like all Americans and the deserve to have healthcare to fulfill the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" enshrined in the constitution. Because if you don't have your health, you have nothing.

[Aloha_Shooter]

The free market DOES work. What doesn't work are the constant infusions of "government" money that just raises prices, litigation culture that slows treatment and raises prices, and increasing bureaucracy that slows treatment and raises prices. Americans -- primarily conservatives -- are the most generous culture in the world in giving their own money to someone they see in need. My grandfather used to take chickens and vegetables as payment for his services; under Obamacare he'd probably be prevented from even seeing the patient until some government bureaucrat said it was okay. Interestingly, personal generosity seems to go down in direct relation to government distribution of goods and services or belief in the government as primary provider. Imagine my shock in high school to know I paid more in income taxes than Ted Kennedy did .. no longer shock to see I donated more to charity when I was in high school (and my only income was a paper route) than Joe Biden did last year.

I donate directly to St. Jude's and other causes but that's MY choice. I do it because I feel it's my Christian duty and it makes me feel good. You do NOT have a right to reach into my pocket, grab what you think is my "fair share" and tell me you're "allowing [me] to keep a fair amount" (direct words from Obama in his first year -- people should have been playing and replaying that quote for the past 3.5 years). You do NOT have a "right" to every procedure known to the American Trial Lawyers Association or cockamamie holistic/organic/Gaian "treatment" out there. Contrary to the mythology spread by liberals and the agitprop nynco posts as "factual", America still has the best healthcare in the world -- there's a reason the world runs here to get taken care of rather than Norway or Britain or France. Statistics like infant mortality are caused by other sociological factors (a lot of which are accentuated by the liberal "big government" program).

You want to lower the cost and increase access to healthcare and health services? Nationalize legal services so all lawyers are GS-11 through GS-15 workers with grade based on seniority and no outside compensation allowed. Institute "loser pays" rules in tort litigation. Get the FEDERAL government out of funding creating health "services". You'll see the price hikes stop almost immediately and an actual decline in prices as service providers get used to not having to pay for multi-million dollar malpractice insurance, no longer ordering tests just to protect themselves from litigation and no longer having to spend 20% of their time filling out paperwork.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Don't leave out the health care providers themselves. They are mostly corporations and Ocare is actually helping them by forcing the smaller independent guys out of the business. Compound the freeloaders, greedy hospitals, big gov bureaucrats, and monopolized insurance market, what do we get?

[esaabye]

My politics are his best chance in life. It is despite the state school and insurance programs that we are able to achieve any step forward. If he is to have a life it will be because I can provide for him and his mother steps up and does the hard work needed everyday.

It is specifically this well-meaning garbage that youwish to force upon me for the good of the herd that will get in the way of hisfuture and my other children as well. "Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" never referred to healthcare when it was written nordoes it now, it was in reference to opportunity, not outcomes.

Freedom is always preferred, even if it hurts sometimes.

Good luck to you, I wish you the best and hope that you find the world you describe, but please leave mine along.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I am sorry you have an autistic son. I am even more sorry that you can't see how your politics is going to kill him someday. Because he will not have the skills to earn the cash to pay for the special needs that he has. Your autistic son could be the social Darwin victim that others are so wanton to cast into the trash pile. You think that schools that can handle autistic people are cheap. You are already receiving benefits that would be cut if other people that think like this had their way. He is a human like all Americans and the deserve to have healthcare to fulfill the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" enshrined in the constitution. Because if you don't have your health, you have nothing.

I agree with some of this.. Not all of it though. I do think we need to take care of our people that can't do it on their own. OUR people, being the key part of that statement.

The help should be highly regulated. And it should only go to those that truely need it.

[nynco]

A free market always leads to monopolies... ever play the game of monopoly to the end. That is libertarian "free market" economics played out for you to learn from.

Tort reform was tried and it has shown to do nothing. It just increased profits for the insurance industry. TX tried it, it did nothing lower costs. Your theory is wrong.

As to Ted Kennedy pay less taxes than you, I am glad you brought that up. Do you know WHY that is? Because Ted earns almost all his money from investing or carried interest payments. The conservatives have created a two tear system of taxes where a working person (anyone who draws a paycheck) pays a higher tax rate than an investor. Income is income, why should a billion dollar earning investor pay less off a taxrate than a Dr? Its one of the main reasons we have a deficit. We cut out over 50% of the income pie by calling it something else.

As to us having the best healthcare in the world. Yeah, if your rich. But for the rest of the 90% of America, we are only one injury away from total oblivion. Hardly a system to be proud of.

[nynco]

My politics are his best chance in life. It is despite the state school and insurance programs that we are able to achieve any step forward. If he is to have a life it will be because I can provide for him and his mother steps up and does the hard work needed everyday.

It is specifically this well-meaning garbage that youwish to force upon me for the good of the herd that will get in the way of hisfuture and my other children as well. "Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" never referred to healthcare when it was written nordoes it now, it was in reference to opportunity, not outcomes.

Freedom is always preferred, even if it hurts sometimes.

Good luck to you, I wish you the best and hope that you find the world you describe, but please leave mine along.

What happens when you and your wife or family die? It could happen tomorrow. Should your son just live on the streets waiting for his social darwin end?

[cstone]

Healthcare, like everything else in life, is finite. Even with the best healthcare available, people die.

IMO, the question is not should we get healthcare, the question is WHO makes the decisions on what healthcare you get. Today, that decision is made by YOU and/or your EMPLOYER when the insurance company and coverage is chosen, followed by YOU when you decide what you can afford to pay above what is paid for by your insurance coverage.

The way I see government provided or regulated healthcare, is we are moving those choices from YOU and YOUR employer to the GOVERNMENT, which means some unelected, bureaucratic agency. The GOV is not better or worse than an INS company. The GOV will answer to the voters as the INS company will answer to the share holders. At least theoretically, I can change INS companies. It seems as if I am stuck with the GOV for at least another two or four years.

[nynco]

WHO makes the decision. I would rather put that choice into someone I can elect. I don't want that choice to be with a corporation who already has my money and will cut me off the second they can. I have no say then. I have a vote when it is the gov. Anything other than that and you have nothing.

[cstone]

What happens when you and your wife or family die? It could happen tomorrow. Should your son just live on the streets waiting for his social darwin end?

Reductio ad absurdum

Today in the USA, anyone who can notify EMS will be treated for life threatening illnesses regardless of ability to pay.

If you want to argue, please stay within the same frame of reality that we all live within. I do not mind debate with those I disagree with, but will not participate when you make absurd point. Thank you.

[nynco]

I worked in healthcare for over a decade. You get life saving care to stop the immediate death. Nothing else. Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen. People tell that same old sorry story and don't understand the truth.

Even then you are making the argument for gov interference in the market.


Even then I was refering to many things. Not just healthcare. Because an Autistic kid is not going to have the skills to work a job that will pay enough to live. Heck normal Americans can not survive on a regular job. You think someone with a disability can without gov health. Not going to happen. So... what then? Just die?

[cstone]

WHO makes the decision. I would rather put that choice into someone I can elect. I don't want that choice to be with a corporation who already has my money and will cut me off the second they can. I have no say then. I have a vote when it is the gov. Anything other than that and you have nothing.

This would be your position and reasoning people can differ on this point. You vote your way, as it seems to be currently winning elections, but please understand that there are those who disagree and have every bit as much reason to believe that you are wrong and the GOV will continue taxing those who have worked to pay for those who can't or won't work.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

My politics are his best chance in life. It is despite the state school and insurance programs that we are able to achieve any step forward. If he is to have a life it will be because I can provide for him and his mother steps up and does the hard work needed everyday.

It is specifically this well-meaning garbage that youwish to force upon me for the good of the herd that will get in the way of hisfuture and my other children as well. "Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" never referred to healthcare when it was written nordoes it now, it was in reference to opportunity, not outcomes.

Freedom is always preferred, even if it hurts sometimes.

Good luck to you, I wish you the best and hope that you find the world you describe, but please leave mine along.

I donate every year to St. Jude's. Great fund. There is an Autism Benefit Paintball tournament every year at Dynamic Paintball out by Watkins. The owner's son is Autistic. You should check it out sometime.

[cstone]

I worked in healthcare for over a decade. You get life saving care to stop the immediate death. Nothing else. Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen. People tell that same old sorry story and don't understand the truth.

Even then you are making the argument for gov interference in the market.

You don't need to work in healthcare to know that cancer kills people regardless of their ability to pay, or who is paying for the treatment.

I do not choose anarchy, so I agree that some government assistance is required in some areas to maintain a civil society. I do not choose to have the level of government intervention that some people seem to want.

[nynco]

This would be your position and reasoning people can differ on this point. You vote your way, as it seems to be currently winning elections, but please understand that there are those who disagree and have every bit as much reason to believe that you are wrong and the GOV will continue taxing those who have worked to pay for those who can't or won't work.

My way will keep on winning elections because society always evolves in ways that tend to help each other. I believe in a "We society" not a "Me society" the whole "united we stand divided we fall". The way of relying on the market did not work. So people are finally seeing that there must be a different way. Sadly we are the last free nation in the world to get it.

[nynco]

You don't need to work in healthcare to know that cancer kills people regardless of their ability to pay, or who is paying for the treatment.

I do not choose anarchy, so I agree that some government assistance is required in some areas to maintain a civil society. I do not choose to have the level of government intervention that some people seem to want.

My father had cancer, thankfully my mother was able to work to provide insurance for his healthcare. If my mother was dead, I fear my father would be dead today for lack of ability to pay for treatment. Because I can tell you first hand that it is impossible to maintain a normal job when you are going through cancer treatment.

[cstone]

My father had cancer, thankfully my mother was able to work to provide insurance for his healthcare. If my mother was dead, I fear my father would be dead today for lack of ability to pay for treatment. Because I can tell you first hand that it is impossible to maintain a normal job when you are going through cancer treatment.

I am glad to hear your father is in remission.

What I am reading in your comment is that your mother worked to provide healthcare for your father while he was receiving cancer treatment. I did not see where the GOV provided that care. I also did not see where the INS company let your father die.

I also have family members who have been treated for cancer. Some have died, and some are in remission. My father-in-law loved his job and worked every hour he could during his chemo. He would have one of his family members or a co-worker drive him to and from work for his treatments. He died, but that wasn't because of who provided his healthcare.

I find your other comment about how the rest of the world does things illustrative. I believe there is value in observing the way others do things. Based on my travel and experience, I would rather get sick in the USA than almost anywhere else in the world. I also have first hand experience dealing with some of the wealthiest and powerful world leaders who routinely travel to the USA for medical care. Some of these leaders provide healthcare for their citizens, yet when the leader is sick, they come to the USA. Seems ironic.

We won't solve this debate here. You have your way of thinking, and I have mine. Keep voting for what you want and I will do the same.

Be safe.

[dwalker460]

Because if investors are taxed on those investments, which have SEVERE RISK OF FAILING, they wont invest it and that money will sit in offshore banks and NOT be taxed, at all. Only a complete economic moron fails to understand this.
You are taxed more on income from EMPLOYMENT because there is no risk involved. You go to work, put in your hours, and take home your pay. You do not stand a chance of losing anything. If the company fails, you just move to another job, while the investor who put up the capitol for the venture loses every cent he put into it and then some.

Healthcare is the way it is due to insurance and the socialist idea that we are all "entitled" to the best healthcare possible. Bullshit. If I cant pay for a procedure then I dont get it. Period. Unlike you selfish bastards I DO NOT WANT anything I have not earned, and that includes the "best" in healthcare. You know what our heathcare system has produced? A massive deficit and an entire generation of people who cannot deal with pain, sickness, or death. And entire society that considers that there is some entitlement to a new heart, or an organ transplant, or drug rehabilitation, or a number of other things that are paid for BY ME that I dont want to pay for. Selfish bastards who see nothing wrong with paying for rehab for anyone stupid enough to do drugs. Really? EFF THAT! Those wastes of life made a conscious choice to use drugs, knowing they could become addicted and did it anyway. I however do not get the choice to choose not to pay for their rehab, or abortions, or birth control, or any one of a thousand other programs put forth by our socialist .gov . So let them die. We all die. If they are suffering, well then help them die faster, its the humane thing to do.
If YOU want to pay for these things- abortions, contraception, drug rehabilitation, organ transplants for anyone who needs one, etc. then by all means, donate to your favorite charity, use YOUR MONEY however you like, but STOP MAKING ME PAY FOR IT. _I_ just had a tooth pulled, and I payed for it out of the money I earned. We paid for all the bills for my sons birth, and all of his healthcare so far, and yeah sure we have insurance, but its because WE PAY FOR IT. Honestly I would rather have not paid for the insurance the past decade and just paid cash for my healthcare, I would have saved a crapload of money. But it is what it is.

Bottom line is we as humans are not entitled to anything. Period. And every single socialist experiment has failed in dramatic fashion, so its time to wake up and get things back on track. A person is responsible to pay his own way in this world, not to pay for the man or woman next to him. Just because you are born does not mean you deserve to live. Just because you live in America does not mean you will be as successful as the man next to you, or that you deserve all the things someone else has, and no one in this world is guaranteed anything beyond what they are capable of earnign for themselves. Harsh? Yeah, its called life, so get used to it. At some point the socialists will push too far, and when that happens the takers will be feed the earners. The only thing protecting the dregs of our society, those that live off the wealth produced by others is the generous nature of the wealthy and their inherent charitable nature. However, those that get fat off the public dole will do well to realize that those that are driven to succeed are as likely to be driven to protect that which they have earned. Take too much, push to hard, and the consequences are likely to be very harsh.

Also, the biggest travesty I have ever witnessed was my grandfather, who landed at Normandy Beach as a medical corpsman on D-Day, raised a family and lived his life asking nothing from no one, kept alive for months after a stroke left him completely debilitated, unable to speak, with no awareness of anyone in the room, existing only on drugs and machines for no other reason than the doctors could. He should have been allowed to die as a man, not kept alive only because drugs and some machines could. We all knew he wasnt coming back, and once upon a time, he would have simply gone to sleep and passed quietly in the night.

[nynco]

The point is if my father did not have my mother, he would have had no health insurance. That is the point of this reform. Insurance based on employment does not work to provide the most efficient care.

I have also seen those world leaders while working at places like Washington Hospital Center. I also know there are TONS of Americans that travel to other parts of the world to receive healthcare because they can not afford it here. So basing the judgement that we have the best because the richest people in the world can afford it means nothing for 90% of America. As I said, 90% of America is one illness or injury away from oblivion. Obamacare is just a patch on the broken system. A piss poor one. I would have made the age for medicare 0. Then you buy what ever insurance you want after that. It creates a base rather than having none.

[nynco]

Because if investors are taxed on those investments, which have SEVERE RISK OF FAILING, they wont invest it and that money will sit in offshore banks and NOT be taxed, at all. Only a complete economic moron fails to understand this.
You are taxed more on income from EMPLOYMENT because there is no risk involved. You go to work, put in your hours, and take home your pay. You do not stand a chance of losing anything. If the company fails, you just move to another job, while the investor who put up the capitol for the venture loses every cent he put into it and then some.

Healthcare is the way it is due to insurance and the socialist idea that we are all "entitled" to the best healthcare possible. Bullshit. If I cant pay for a procedure then I dont get it. Period. Unlike you selfish bastards I DO NOT WANT anything I have not earned, and that includes the "best" in healthcare. You know what our heathcare system has produced? A massive deficit and an entire generation of people who cannot deal with pain, sickness, or death. And entire society that considers that there is some entitlement to a new heart, or an organ transplant, or drug rehabilitation, or a number of other things that are paid for BY ME that I dont want to pay for. Selfish bastards who see nothing wrong with paying for rehab for anyone stupid enough to do drugs. Really? EFF THAT! Those wastes of life made a conscious choice to use drugs, knowing they could become addicted and did it anyway. I however do not get the choice to choose not to pay for their rehab, or abortions, or birth control, or any one of a thousand other programs put forth by our socialist .gov . So let them die. We all die. If they are suffering, well then help them die faster, its the humane thing to do.
If YOU want to pay for these things- abortions, contraception, drug rehabilitation, organ transplants for anyone who needs one, etc. then by all means, donate to your favorite charity, use YOUR MONEY however you like, but STOP MAKING ME PAY FOR IT. _I_ just had a tooth pulled, and I payed for it out of the money I earned. We paid for all the bills for my sons birth, and all of his healthcare so far, and yeah sure we have insurance, but its because WE PAY FOR IT. Honestly I would rather have not paid for the insurance the past decade and just paid cash for my healthcare, I would have saved a crapload of money. But it is what it is.

Bottom line is we as humans are not entitled to anything. Period. And every single socialist experiment has failed in dramatic fashion, so its time to wake up and get things back on track. A person is responsible to pay his own way in this world, not to pay for the man or woman next to him. Just because you are born does not mean you deserve to live. Just because you live in America does not mean you will be as successful as the man next to you, or that you deserve all the things someone else has, and no one in this world is guaranteed anything beyond what they are capable of earnign for themselves. Harsh? Yeah, its called life, so get used to it. At some point the socialists will push too far, and when that happens the takers will be feed the earners. The only thing protecting the dregs of our society, those that live off the wealth produced by others is the generous nature of the wealthy and their inherent charitable nature. However, those that get fat off the public dole will do well to realize that those that are driven to succeed are as likely to be driven to protect that which they have earned. Take too much, push to hard, and the consequences are likely to be very harsh.

Also, the biggest travesty I have ever witnessed was my grandfather, who landed at Normandy Beach as a medical corpsman on D-Day, raised a family and lived his life asking nothing from no one, kept alive for months after a stroke left him completely debilitated, unable to speak, with no awareness of anyone in the room, existing only on drugs and machines for no other reason than the doctors could. He should have been allowed to die as a man, not kept alive only because drugs and some machines could. We all knew he wasnt coming back, and once upon a time, he would have simply gone to sleep and passed quietly in the night.

If an investor does not want to invest because he does not want to pay taxes like every working American... so be it. I am sure someone else with brains will come along and figure out that if there is money to be made, they will invest. Losses can be written off just like any other loss. Taxing investment income the same as regular income does not change that. A loss just diminished your taxable income. Pretty common sense.

Healthcare is expense because of for profit insurance. The free market wants to make as much money as possible. Not cut costs. Regardless how can a sick person work to pay for the "free market" You still can't seem to get that fundamental flaw.

As to your grandfather, I am sorry for what happened to him. But know this, many of your political heroes treated Terry Schiavo (a person in the same state as your father) in the way you are complaining about.

[dwalker460]

If an investor does not want to invest because he does not want to pay taxes like every working American... so be it. I am sure someone else with brains will come along and figure out that if there is money to be made, they will invest. Losses can be written off just like any other loss. Taxing investment income the same as regular income does not change that. A loss just diminished your taxable income. Pretty common sense.

No. "Writing off" a loss does nothing to help. Its insane how many people do not understand that you cannot just "write off" a loss. The more I think of it the more insane it is that those who have no idea of investing etc. are the ones who so blindly say, well just write it off. I dont invest money to write it off, I invest money to make more money. If you tax the crap out of me on those investments, then I will simply not invest.... here! Incidentally, Chinese investments are a very good yield right now..


Healthcare is expense because of for profit insurance. The free market wants to make as much money as possible. Not cut costs. Regardless how can a sick person work to pay for the "free market" You still can't seem to get that fundamental flaw.

No, you seem to ignore the fundamental law. When insurance was something people could take or leave, and doctors were paid for in cash OR you did not receive healthcare, then costs were managable. However, once the Unions, .gov, etc. mandated that insurance was REQUIRED, then costs started to run out of control. Ask yourself why it is that the cost of generic healthcare is so high... well the drugs for one, because it costs so much to get FDA approval. Then there is the insurance required, a result of malpractice suits. And then there are the administrative costs, because the insurance, .gov regulation, etc. has become a nightmare, and the more crap we add the more healthcare goes up.


As to your grandfather, I am sorry for what happened to him. But know this, many of your political heroes treated Terry Schiavo (a person in the same state as your father) in the way you are complaining about.

I dont have any political heroes. I do have political ideals.

[nynco]

Then go invest in China. Your income from that investment should be taxed exactly the same as all forms of income. Makes no difference if you invest here or abroad. That is the hole in your logic, that is unless you want to denounce your US citizenship. Which be my guest, that is your choice. I also understand investing quite fine. If you want to chose not to invest that is your choice put it into a CD or some form of savings. Those forms of income should be taxed the same as labor income too. Income is income.

I also agree that insurance based on employers has skewed the market. But those stupid precedent was put in place to preserve the "free market" that was failing in the past. Obviously it still failed. No matter how much we dance around it, the fundamental problem is a free market will not serve the needs of sick people. Hence the reason that healthcare should not be treated as a commodity. Which is what every other free nation in the world has come to as a conclusion. You are right administrative costs are a huge problem. Example having mass amounts of lawyers and claims adjusters who sole job it is to deny people care. Pretty inefficient. Up until Obamas pathetic reforms, healthcare was the only industry that had a model that based its profits off of killing people. Meaning the more people pay into the system and the more people that they deny healthcare to, the larger the profit margin. It was evil and still is. No one should make a profit by killing people.

[dwalker460]

Negative- when healthcare was a free market, rates were low. When the insurance was mandated and healthcare has become more and more socialized, the worse it has gotten. TAX MONEY SHOULD NOT BE USED TO HELP SICK PEOPLE> Get it? its THAT SIMPLE. all the rest is you dancing around that one simple issue.

[nynco]

Thankfully society is evolving to see that just letting people die because they are poor is no different than the dark ages. So yeah I get it.

[fitz19d]

I love sitting right in the sweet spot between truly poor and middle class. Kinda like a wealthy poor person.

Starting next year barring a career improvement, I'll go from $300 to spare a month after bills to @ or under $100 due to forcing to buy into company insurance that still leaves me with a hefty deductible for someone at my income followed by at best a 80% coverage rate. If I don't get it I end up paying more come tax time due to the mandate. So with or without I'm boned if I have a serious medical expense. But what very modest ability to save/invest/spend is going to get cut into significantly.

Thanks .gov

[Holger Danske]

From the title, I though the OP was invited to the White House for brews with the POTUS....

[Rucker61]

Because if investors are taxed on those investments, which have SEVERE RISK OF FAILING, they wont invest it and that money will sit in offshore banks and NOT be taxed, at all. Only a complete economic moron fails to understand this.


Warren Buffett disagrees with you, and I'd not think he's an economic moron.

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-warren-buffett-taxes-wealthy-obama-20121126,0,2170543.story

If those investments have a "severe risk", who the hell is going to hand over their money?

And do the math. A increase in capital gains from 15% to 20% means that an 8% return gives 6.4% after tax instead of 6.8%. You're going to not invest because of that delta?

[Holger Danske]

I worked in healthcare for over a decade. You get life saving care to stop the immediate death. Nothing else. Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen. People tell that same old sorry story and don't understand the truth.

Even then you are making the argument for gov interference in the market.


Even then I was refering to many things. Not just healthcare. Because an Autistic kid is not going to have the skills to work a job that will pay enough to live. Heck normal Americans can not survive on a regular job. You think someone with a disability can without gov health. Not going to happen. So... what then? Just die?

I have a good friend who in her mid-60's had breast cancer surgery. She had just lost her business and was in bankrupty and did not have health insurance. The state of Colorado paid the bill. Anyway, .gov does pay for life-saving cancer surgeries and subsequient treatment and this was pre-Obama Care. That's all.

[nynco]

BINGO we have a winner - basically the woman had to lose everything in her life before the state would help. Meaning just as I said 90% of America is only one illness or injury away from oblivion.

[Holger Danske]

You're right Nynco. Some more info. She lost her business because her partner was stealing from it. If she had the resources, then she would have taken care of it herself. She's back on her feet and doesn't require help from .gov any more. I think the difference is that some folks need an occasional hand, and then there are others that don't want to take care of themselves, aren't without resources and still try to take advantage of safety net programs.

[cstone]

When does the safety net become a hammock?

Caring for those in need is not giving out free care.

Charity starts at home. It ceases to be charity when it is handed out by an impartial bureaucracy. Hand outs become an entitlement when every politician at every level is afraid to manage how much and to whom it is given because those who receive believe they are entitled will continue to vote for candidates who will keep giving. Those politicians who are elected will keep giving as long as there is someone they can take from to pay for the entitlements.

Why is Greece where it is now? Where will Greece be when the Germans decide to stop funding Greek entitlements?

[nynco]

Don't even try to use Greece as an example of anything liberal. Their economy is going off a cliff because they have no manufacturing base and the greeks decided to try massive gov cuts like you guys advocate. It sent the country into a down spiral. Just like everyone warns will happen if we listen to the GOP and cut spending by a massive amount.

Germany on the other hand has done exactly what I think is the right thing to do. Same with most all the Scandinavia socialist countries. They are booming right now.

Healthcare should not even be an issue of a safety net. We need to make medicare a base level for all regardless of income and then if you are rich, buy better than that. You will see the economy boom as small business is lifted from that burden and individuals can follow their dreams. Much the same reason the 50s boomed once the kids did not have to pay for the parents thanks to Soc Sec.

[TEAMRICO]

Yaaaaawn, has NYNCO changed anyone's mind yet. I'm starting to get the image of him being a start raving mad Communist!
NYNCO, you are so obsessed with converting people with your WE WE WE utopia I still fail to see what you want out of all of this. Still want to understand what YOU have to gain from taking from others to provide for those who could care less where any of this money comes from. Are you giving to your neighbor so they can get by, do you pay their cell phone bill, car note, grocery bill or anything and do you have to? Wy are you so concerned with making people see YOUR WAY. You never explain why anyone should give up the wealth they have worked for other than the Greater Good jibberish we have been hearing since liberals have figured it was safe to crawl out from under their rocks. Your view is that we should all be guilty of what we have worked for and be forced to have it taken away or forced to pay for these so called VICTIMS of the American way of life. When did I have to start shouldering the blame for the failure of others in society. If they are not trying to better themselves why should we have to make up for that? These so called victims, eat better, have better cell phones, bigger TV's, drive nicer cars and still they claim they need help. I see it everyday, kids on free school lunch tossing it into the trash only to go outside and play on there fancy cell phones, they have parents who complain they can't afford a collared shirt for school but sure do have nice iPhones! I pay my way everyday yet still see people buying up the good name brand groceries and throwing meat into there cart like there is no tomorrow using and EBT card. Forcing people to pay more, buy a service, or feel guilty for success is not going to motivate these so called poor to take care of themselves anymore, they know your a sucker for feeling sorry for them and will always get something for nothing. You can cry about the Eisenhower Days all you want. Your not changing any minds here and have just made yourself seem even more insane and self serving.

[dwalker460]

The problem Liberals have is the word "CHOICE". They are the party of NO.

[nynco]

"First and foremost too, we have the RIGHT to chose who we want to assist." So too do you have the right to choose your gov. Thus the gov we chose can also chose to assist others. I believe in a gov of "We the People" You don't like it, well try to get people to vote for people who will not help another person other than themselves. Thankfully people are starting to get that will not work.

Foxtrot can you please point me to the line in the constitution that says we are to be a "Free Market" "Laisseze Fair" economy? Thanks in advance... if not then I suggest you take your own advice.

"If you don't like it and want to change it until everyone is forced to agree with your way of thinking, then I suggest you properly amend the constitution.

#4: Otherwise, sit down, shut up, and stop harassing people from under your bridge."

Again thanks in advance.

TeamRico, I don't really care what you think of me. You have already admitted yourself that you are a bigot and proud of it on another thread. No one can change that mentality but yourself. So rest assured, I don't care what you think.

I love it when I strike a nerve with Liberals. Now the name calling.
Yes, Im a Homophobe, Anti Islam, anti all of it. Now that I have taken away the labels and name calling keep defending Dear Leader til the end.
I am everything you say I am so now you have no weapon against me.

[TEAMRICO]

Yup, I'm all of those things! When you make up more HATE SPEECH labels I will add those as well. Keeps you loons happy.
Boy, you Communist sure get mad when people have the ability to think for themselves. Is this how you run The Red Cross....adding a sickle and hammer soon to the flag is suspect.
NYNCO, seems like you are a man filled with hatred for freedom and this country? Why are you so filled with anger? Are you a GOV plant meant to stir trouble here so you can have this site closed down. I'm beginning to worry about your intentions here to silence free speech and crush opposing views, I think you may be a threat to those that speak out against you......scary!

[cstone]

Government programs are like the camel's nose. They are proposed and passed as supplements to assist the needy. Social Security was started to supplement worker's retirement savings. Now it is seen as sacrosanct and an absolute must for all who the GOV approves to receive.

There will always be those who have more and those who have less. IMO, life is not fair and it is not about providing an equal right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for every citizen. In fact that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence, which of course was written as a statement dissolving the ties between citizens and their former government. IMO life is about opportunities, and freedom to choose. I am free to believe what I do and you are free to believe what you want. I am free to disagree with you, as you are free to disagree with me. I choose to have less government involvement in my choices and I choose to not have my healthcare provided through government mandates. I feel that the current system is an infringement upon my rights and I will work against that infringement upon my rights.

I do not want to live in a socialized state like those found in Scandanavia or the rest of western Europe. I believe the path chosen by those countries is fundamentally wrong based on my understanding of the Constitution. I could list many other problems I have with current government programs and policies, however, I find the entire discussion to be continued mental masturbation.

Enjoy yourself and the future you are choosing. I'm taking my balls and going home.

[nynco]

Yada yada yada Rico... you yourself said you are those things. I just let you run with your own personal label. So don't accuse me of doing anything more than agreeing with your own personal assessment. You are free to be all that you cherish. Just don't take away anyone else's rights with your views. Have a nice day.

[TEAMRICO]

Best line ever "Just don't take away anyone else's right with your views".

You still don't get it do you? Your hatred of freedom blinds you to no end.

Makes me feel better knowing that as I stood in line today at the store I could watch a woman pay for the most good awful junk food and prime cuts of meat with her EBT card. I hope its enough to last her since she was working 250 lbs plus!
NYNCO's America!

[nynco]

Government programs are like the camel's nose. They are proposed and passed as supplements to assist the needy. Social Security was started to supplement worker's retirement savings. Now it is seen as sacrosanct and an absolute must for all who the GOV approves to receive.

There will always be those who have more and those who have less. IMO, life is not fair and it is not about providing an equal right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for every citizen. In fact that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence, which of course was written as a statement dissolving the ties between citizens and their former government. IMO life is about opportunities, and freedom to choose. I am free to believe what I do and you are free to believe what you want. I am free to disagree with you, as you are free to disagree with me. I choose to have less government involvement in my choices and I choose to not have my healthcare provided through government mandates. I feel that the current system is an infringement upon my rights and I will work against that infringement upon my rights.

I do not want to live in a socialized state like those found in Scandanavia or the rest of western Europe. I believe the path chosen by those countries is fundamentally wrong based on my understanding of the Constitution. I could list many other problems I have with current government programs and policies, however, I find the entire discussion to be continued mental masturbation.

Enjoy yourself and the future you are choosing. I'm taking my balls and going home.

What do you think Soc Sec does now. I sure as hell is not the end all be all for retirement. It is exactly what you said a supplement. Because it really does not pay very much like you all think.

I don't want life to be fair and equal. But I want there to be a system where people can live with dignity while working an honest job. You want more than that, work harder. Right now there are tons of hard working Americans who can not make ends meet because our system is so broken that tons of people can not survive on that. The pay offerings of companies like Walmart (who made billions in profit) many who work at those low wage jobs qualify for public assistance. even though they work full time. So Yeah I have a problem with a system where companies can make the taxpayers subsidize their slave labor.

[nynco]

You still don't get it do you? Your hatred of freedom blinds you to no end.

I don't hate freedom. But apparently you hate that people freely chose to elect a gov that decided to help all Americans and not just the wealthy. Projection is alive and well

[dwalker460]

seriously the .gov DOES NOT help the wealthy, it helps the lazy. We seriously need to adopt the no work, no eat policy in this country, along with a no achievement/no education policy as well.

[Bailey Guns]

I'll tell all of you who think otherwise that ANYONE (that means nynco...who's now on my ignore list) who needs "health care", whatever form that may be, can get it free of charge.

My wife is a RN at a metro-area private hospital. She works in the ICU. Most of her patients are there because of poor lifestyle choices...drug abuse, alcohol abuse, drug and alcohol abuse. The majority of her patients are indigent and don't have health insurance. They get the same level of care that paying patients get. If you argue otherwise, you're totally ignorant of how the system works and you don't deserve to be heard.

The paying patients (and their insurance companies) subsidize the non-paying patients. That's part of the reason health insurance/health care IS expensive for those that can pay it.

It mimics the rest of life. The taxpayers subsidize the tax receivers. We're rapidly approaching the point where the takers are going to outnumber the payers. When that happens you liberals are going to be in for a rude awakening.

BTW: If you guys would stop quoting nynco the "Ignore" function would work much better. :)

[sneakerd]

It's a waste of time, effort and brainpower to talk to the troll. No amount of information, logic or factual argument will dissuade him from his leftist ideology.

[TEAMRICO]

Your anger toward me is bordering on RACISM! Because of the color of my skin?
I assume you think I'm white am I correct?
Slave labor?? So Walmart is forcing highly educated college graduates to work there? Are they stealing these scholars from the fast food industry? If anyone who wanted a better life or a career that pays well is working in fast food or for any retailer then I have to ask where did they go wrong in life? Drop out of school, teen pregnancy, trouble with the law, or maybe just don't really want to try to succeed in life? What ever there issues are they are not mine to compensate for. So they should get paid more and more to be rewarded? Sorry young college student with a degree in liberal arts, the liberal arts factory is just not hiring!
Once again you talk about this BROKEN SYSTEM where those who failed themselves are to be supported or pitied by those who succeeded.
Im sure smoking pot, poking holes in your face and ears and having more tattoos then you have space on your body is your right to free expression but when no one hires you don't take money from those who made something of themselves to give him a shot he was "Denied".
Complaining about the successful people in life and accusing them of forcing people into slave labor is pretty childish. If that is the case I should be demonizing you for being successful and demanding you give up your wealth that you have stolen from those poor bastards working at the stores that provide you with goods. You by the products of slave labor while you rake in money that you don't deserve and others are denied. You don't deserve to be as we'll off as you are when others need the basics to get by to the next paycheck or hand out.
it is rich people like you who are out of touch with the working man!
Sacrifice more so others can live! Rich people like you never get it up there in your ivory tower!

[sturn18]

Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen.

A few months ago a friend of mine died from pancreatic cancer. He had worked for the last 6 years as a pizza delivery driver and had no insurance. He was treated for his cancer with surgery, radiation and chemo, then at the end he had in home hospice care.

Again, no insurance, yet was given all the treatments available. Services are available currently, they are run by the state and by individual hospitals. But just keep watching MSNBC, they will back up all the socialist ideals that you hold so dear.

[JMBD2112]

I'll tell all of you who think otherwise that ANYONE (that means nynco...who's now on my ignore list) who needs "health care", whatever form that may be, can get it free of charge.

My wife is a RN at a metro-area private hospital. She works in the ICU. Most of her patients are there because of poor lifestyle choices...drug abuse, alcohol abuse, drug and alcohol abuse. The majority of her patients are indigent and don't have health insurance. They get the same level of care that paying patients get. If you argue otherwise, you're totally ignorant of how the system works and you don't deserve to be heard.

The paying patients (and their insurance companies) subsidize the non-paying patients. That's part of the reason health insurance/health care IS expensive for those that can pay it.

It mimics the rest of life. The taxpayers subsidize the tax receivers. We're rapidly approaching the point where the takers are going to outnumber the payers. When that happens you liberals are going to be in for a rude awakening.

BTW: If you guys would stop quoting nynco the "Ignore" function would work much better. :)

It seems he's on quite a few peoples ignore lists, i would put in my two cents but i cant process all of his stupid

[TEAMRICO]

Since NYNCO yearns for "The Good Old Days" of Eisenhower........

[nynco]

So Rico what was that quote in reference too? What was Eisenhower addressing at that time?

[TEAMRICO]

Dont mean anything, I just thought you would like to see us go back to the days of Dwight, you know the 50's and 60's when women knew their place and so did people of color. Ahhh you must pine for those days of the past.

[Marlin]

nynco,,, All I have to say is BULLSHIT.A few years back when I had the knarly shit in my foot, I ended up in the er with no insurance. They treated my foot made me stay for 2 days, wanted me to stay longer, but that's another story. over $17,000 later, made arrangements to pay and that was it. My foot will be mine again, in about another 6 months. The only morons that want oblahblahcare are the ones THAT DON'T WANT TO PAY.In fact, the Lady we delt with, seem very happy that we were doing it that way instead of insurance, Less paperwork and,except for a small finance charge, the same as cash.

[dwalker460]

I blahblahblah socialism blah blah blah bullshit bullshit bullshit


You define the sentiment "You cant fix stupid"

[Goodburbon]

Actually when I posted the hread I was speaking to the misinformation she'd been fed about some.sort of voucher program shed be forced into that I'd never heard of. And I stayed informed this election season.

As far as her voting for Obama I told.her I understood, people vote for their own wallet. That was the end of.it. we had more.beers, more laughs and the world continued to rotate and revolve.


Nynco please stfu. You've thoroughly derailed this thread and many others just because you buy into the crap they're selling you. I on the other hand rather enjoyed the country I grew up in and would like to preserve it for my posterity. If you feel socialism is the way, please feel free to relocate to a nation that is oppressive enough for your tastes. Leave my country alone.

[sneakerd]

Well said.

[Great-Kazoo]

Don't even try to use Greece as an example of anything liberal. Their economy is going off a cliff because they have no manufacturing base and the greeks decided to try massive gov cuts like you guys advocate. It sent the country into a down spiral. Just like everyone warns will happen if we listen to the GOP and cut spending by a massive amount.

Germany on the other hand has done exactly what I think is the right thing to do. Same with most all the Scandinavia socialist countries. They are booming right now.

Healthcare should not even be an issue of a safety net. We need to make medicare a base level for all regardless of income and then if you are rich, buy better than that. You will see the economy boom as small business is lifted from that burden and individuals can follow their dreams. Much the same reason the 50s boomed once the kids did not have to pay for the parents thanks to Soc Sec.

When was the last time the USA actually manufactured something?

Germany has finally done Economically what it couldn't do Militarily, Conquer Europe.

As for the rest, it is a sad day when i need to show ID AND pay my deductible up front, while 2 seats over Undocumented Worker is not held responsible for shit. CA is the classic example, a state in debt due in part to a health care system tits up from attending to ILLEGAL Aliens and Anchor baby families.

[Fmedges]

My personal opinion is that if an X-ray cost $300 instead of $7,000 then more people would be able to pay. Stop trying to put a band aid on an open wound. The problem is the cost of healthcare, and all of the other problems stem from that. Cancer is never going to be cured even though there is a cure out there because it is too profitable. Do you think companies and hospitals want to cure their cash cow? My mom just got a new chemo drug that totaled $16,000 for one round.

[Byte Stryke]

the fact that the CPUSA Endorsed Obama whole-heartedly says everything.
simply to avoid the stain of the name, Communists infiltrated the Democratic party; and now Democrat is the new Communist.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -Karl Marx

[Marlin]

What's it mean when Pravda called the people that voted for him idiots? [LOL]

[BPTactical]

What's it mean when Pravda called the people that voted for him idiots? [LOL]

That at least SOMEBODY gets it.....

[buffalobo]

It is about choice. Without choice it is only slavery lite. Without individual liberty there is no freedom.

[Bailey Guns]

What's it mean when Pravda called the people that voted for him idiots? [LOL]

It means Pravda is correct.

[Marlin]

It means Pravda is correct.

Once in 80 or so years ain't bad.

[Bailey Guns]

To be fair, that's a pretty tough one to get wrong. I wouldn't give Pravda too much credit.

[Marlin]

[Tooth]

[T-Giv]

Reading this thread start to finish....how do I say it? PISSED ME OFF. [facepalm]Mother of God there are some serious breakdowns in society today and on this forum. Liberty is dying. [Cry]

[palepainter]

I don't think The spirit of Liberty is dying, it is just being compressed like spring...about to uncoil.